Our expectations are really low

[nadinbrzezinski]

yesterday I had a very civil discussion with Recurison about jobs, (It had to to do with the race, but this is a far more general thing) And one of the things that struck me is that when factory jobs are mentioned, he went immediately to 25 cents a day in Bangladesh. First off, I think it is time to raise the pay in Bangladesh to a living wage, but that is another kettle of fish.

Good union jobs in the US are service jobs... ok currently they are likely the best we can do because we have become a low wage economy thanks to things like NAFTA, Trickle down and the deindustrialization of the country. Ok fine. how about good union jobs like FABER CASTELL in Germany? You know they still have a middle class over there.

How about Bugatti in Italy?

We have been propagandized to the point that we are willing to be satisfied with 15 dollar an hour jobs., and consider that great, when we used to have regularly 25 and 30 dollar jobs (in 1980 dollars).

Until Americans have had it with a low wage economy, the third way will continue to win this war. There is one, and the very wealthy are winning, Income innequality requires people to have an imagination and aspirations of a better life, and be willing to fight for it, and not be satisfied with low pay jobs.

And by the way, this is a union household, we love unions, but also unions have to have a wider view and demand far more.

[daleanime]

1. K&R.....

[Wounded Bear]

2. K & R ...... nt

[Hortensis]

3. There is no third way. It was temporary and died over a decade ago.

However, I agree that we have been manipulated since the late 1970s to lower our expectations, a major tactic being to simply drop wages, or not raise them with inflation, and let us get used to it.

That we got used to it instead of getting angry, though, that was OUR fault. Not some silly "third way" crap.

We, and by this I mean roughly 150 million workers, are the productive classes of a fabulously wealthy nation. If we're pocketing chump change for our contribution and not even bothering to vote, wouldn't that explain and even justify some of the contempt of the laissez-faire types who speak of maximizing labor and consumer profits?

But buck up. It's 30 years late, but we are angry. Such a shame people are throwing mud 20 different ways instead of throwing a rope around the fiscal necks of those who actually conspired to bring us to this.

Don't buck up too much, though. National stupidity could buy us another couple decades. Social movements require time to develop.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Yes there is one

and it is not dead

Though I understand why people do not want to talk about it.

[Hortensis]

12. As a movement it reached its zenith during

Bill Clinton's administration and lost power a long time ago, as you can see from the graphs below. In fact, the little DC organization that gave name to it is a shadow organization without clout. Hillary Clinton was analyzed as significantly farther left than her husband, then and now, typical for a woman of course.

This graph shows roughly where most analyses put the two parties now, severely polarized -- more than the typical Twitter user. That blue is Democratic congressmen.

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=&w=1484

Displayed a different way, in a different analysis with the introduction of time.



Although it's used as a dirty term here, third way was an honorable attempt to find a middle ground that the millions of citizens of an increasingly divided representative democracy could agree on. As it happened, the divide widened and support for cooperation basically disappeared as a force. You may not like democracy, but that is how it is SUPPOSED to work.

Actually, though, Social Democrats had once hoped to use it to progress from capitalism to socialism, but -- out the window! Many people on the extremes of both sides too foolish and hostile for democracy to work.

Here is a little more about why we as a people are currently so dysfunctional. This was in 2012, explaining why Congress would get nothing done. As you all can see, there is no third way, only my way or the highway.


In any case, if anyone wonders why using the term "third way" as if it is a force on the left today does not elicit respect for their insight and knowledge, this is why.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Well these days they might go by No Labels

look that up.

It is the same old blue dog coalition, with the same broken ideology.

[Hortensis]

15. Umhm. But where are they? People who want

to understand this election need to learn what's going on.

And then they still won't understand. This time around, though, the admission of experts that they are still trying to figure it out seems to be a good rule of thumb for separating reputable experts from hired hacks with an agenda to push. Bumfuzzlement is the new safe spot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Might be, but these guys have just changed spots

and that is my point

[Hortensis]

17. No. There is NO significant "third way" faction! Kaput!

Period.

Closed for lack of viewers.

For those who want to understand what's with this "third way" term you'll see on none of the graphs above: There is a relatively small population of people on the far left who want to see themselves as not only "the true left" but as the only ones standing up for the common man. But they don't want to see themselves as a fringe element but as big and powerful, a righteous majority force that will sweep the nation into agreement with them and off to a glorious, enlightened future.

To this end, they insist everyone who doesn't agree with them is actually a closet conservative, a sell-out to "corporatism" and, evil of evils now, capitalism. I.e., a "third wayer," the slur they use that term as.

That would actually include almost half of America's voting age population, virtually the entire Democratic Party and the entire liberal population, but cognitive dissonance is not a problem. The majority isn't materializing, but they believe.

They refuse to admit that there is actually a whole, bigger liberal movement occurring, where there is supposed to be nothing... They are the only righteous, uncorrupted ones with the only answer and the only candidate who can save America. (From the rest of us.)

For understanding the rest of the left, and those on the right because they also have the vote, maybe start by reexamining the graphs? Please note where the candidates lie ideologically.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Yet we have a third way candidate running for President

I cannot square this round hole really.

And I can certainly understand why Third Way candidates do not run on those bona fides. That said, no, they are not conservative, in the old way of the term. But yes, we got one running for President of the United States, and one that will triangulate the shit out of DC (or at least try) if she wins the presidency.

[Hortensis]

21. It is clear that that would require a whole paradigm shift.

So you go on.

But now and then, as usual, someone will not only get irritated at the unending insults but wonder how many other people are swallowing this stuff and step up to do a good deed for the day.

[dumbcat]

5. What do you think would be a living wage

in Bangladesh?

First off, I think it is time to raise the pay in Bangladesh to a living wage, but that is another kettle of fish.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Since I do not have access to their economic numbers I do not know

but 25 cents a day is not it.

Probably it would be, and this is a WAG 10 dollars an hour.

[dumbcat]

8. A 4000 percent increase?

Cool! I'm sure they would like that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. I am sure their owners would not

[HappyinLA]

7. It's not a question of low wage or high wage

It's the type of economy. Economies grow and evolve. They go through stages. i.e. hunting, agriculture, manufacturing, service, information

The US has passed it's manufacturing stage (we're still #2 in the world though), is in it's service phase and quickly moving to information. We aren't going to see the return of the manufacturing stage, because frankly other countries can do it cheaper and always will. And as the global economy develops, it moves. So China might be firmly in their manufacturing stage now but in 50 years we could see a place like India or Vietnam, or a reborn North Korea as the leader.

But at the same time manufacturing is down globally. Everyone is dealing with it. It's down in Europe, it's down in Asia. Yet the US is still the second largest manufacturer in the world, at roughly $2 trillion in value added in manufacturing. First place is China at $2.7 trillion. But Japan is a distance 3rd at $917 billion. Mexico is 12th at $213 billion.

I think the biggest blow to pay rates, especially for union members, is the rise of the "right to work" and "non union" shit. My wife has run head first into that over the last 10 years as more and more jobs in her field have flat out flipped from union jobs with union rates to non-union or no-union-jurisdiction.

Overall I think the problem is that the global economy is equalizing out rates. And not even global, I just think we're at a point where the world has shrunk to where you find pay rates in places like NYC being in line with pay rates in Orlando. Where before it would vary due to local costs/taxes/etc. So now we in the US see pay go down, but someone in Vietnam sees it going up as things try to find a new equilibrium as the walls separating us go down (NAFTA/TPP/etc).

Sucks for us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. AsI said, we have very low expectations

people should be in the streets, whether you are working a factory floor, service, or programming a computer H1B visas come to mind.

It is illuminating beyond belief.

[HappyinLA]

11. March to demand what?

To stop the global economy? To throw up economic walls around the country? I'm not sure what you think the remedy is?

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. The way the global economy is taking shape

will lead inevitably to revolutions and backlash.


Of course, given climate change it might not. We might be on the way to extinction.

[pampango]

22. Trump has an answer. Unilateral walls and tariffs. Make the US an island against the world.

Kind of reminiscent of the old Coolidge/Hoover days with restrictive immigration and high tariffs (and historic income inequality) cutting the US off from the rest of the world. FDR thought he had slayed that 'Coolidge/Hoover' beast but it never dies. The 'magic' of tariffs and walls to solve our problems is something that FDR saw through but is mesmerizing to many others.

Modern progressive countries have proven (just as FDR did) that tariffs and walls aren't what make a strong middle class. Other policies - high/progressive taxes, legal support for strong unions, healthy safety nets, etc. - are what works, then and now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. It is how the global economy is getting put together that will lead to revolutions

and crisis, not the concept itself. When you impose a system that puts downward pressure on standards of living and wages and transfer solution to areas with less laws, and never internalize that into your product. Well, we are setting up quite the mess.

What would happen if for example we transferred those factories to oh Bangladesh and they had good environmental laws (not just in the books), and middle class wages? And at the same time we had good information age jobs with again MC wages?

I suspect Trump's message would not resonate.

[pampango]

24. I am not sure how you 'put together a global economy' any better than FDR tried to do with his ITO

Last edited Tue Feb 23, 2016, 06:40 PM - Edit history (1)

and it seems like no one likes that idea. Multilateral governance of trade seems as unpopular on the left now as it has been for a long time on the far-right.

Trump (and Coolidge/Hoover who came before him) would have a world of 200 country-islands each limiting trade with OTHERS who are out to do US harm. FDR and many others believed that the experience of the 1920's proved that does not work. He tried to set up a trading organization that would take the setting and governing of trading rules out of the hands of national governments since, in his view, history showed that governments always reacted to economic problems (and corporate lobbying) by imposing tariffs on THEM (who are neither voters nor campaign donors).

I do tend to agree that a 'revolution' will come. Krugman has pointed out that the world has gone through the cycle of protectionism (usually republicans) to globalization (usually Democrats) back to protectionism and back to globalization several times before. I suspect that many on the right (certainly Trump's supporters) and some on the left are ready for a return to protectionism (or nationalism, if you prefer) and to solve our economic problems by putting tariffs on stuff THEY send us. So the cycle will continue. Call that continuing cycle a 'revolution' if you want.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. What will drive some of this will be global climate change

and resource wars (water anyone).

But you could put such a world together... and what we have right now is leading already to quite a bit of unrest not in our borders, not yet (unless you count Occupy), but abroad.

Oh and nationalism due to climate change will increase by orders of magnitude. I an starting to agree with some economists that climate change is incompatible with our modern form of "capitalism." I use those becuase it is in name only.

At the highest of levels, (which is a rich irony) it has far more in common with a command economy than most people realize, for example.

[Arazi]

19. You will take your tiny house and like it

I've been watching the tiny house movement grow and can't imagine making a life or a family in one of those. The micro apartments are another movement designed to tamp down our expectations I believe.

It's all connected. Good observations

Kicked and recced

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. On a whole separate matter, the tiny house movement

also has environmental reasons for it. But that is a whole different kettle of fish.

[haikugal]

26. K&R! Thanks Nadin!

[Agnosticsherbet]

27. Labor must put more effort into going global.

Globalism worked well for management and investors. Don't like the labor movement. Move to Bangladesh.
Until a strike in at a garment factory in Bangladesh is recognized by labor as in the US where American labor pickets the stores selling those garments, Management can avoid dealing with labor.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. I have made that precise point to labor leaders in both Mexico and the United States

Yup