Can Trump be WORSE than bush?

[basselope]

This is in no way an endorsement of Trump or suggestion that anyone in their right mind (or even not right mind) consider voting for him; however, as I feel the potential for a Trump presidency is looming, I am forced to ask myself is it possible for him to be worse than bush?

While I knew bush was going to be bad, I never quite imagined HOW BAD he was going to be. I didn't expect him to ignore memos about attacks that lead to 9/11. I didn't expect him to start a war with Iraq.

I DID expect him to trash the economy by going back to known failed trickle down policies, but not quite to the extent that he did. To completely ignore the bubble everyone saw about to pop.. well.. he missed the memos in 8/11, so I guess it is not surprising he would miss them in 2007/08 either.

When I look at reality... I just can't think of what he could do that would be worse than what bush did and I am actually MORE afraid of some of the other candidates (Cruz, Rubio).


Again, just to stress not being as bad as the worst president to walk the earth is in NO WAY a suggestion that anyone should ever consider voting for him. I wouldn't pull the lever for him if he offered me his entire fortune (whatever that number may be)... but for some reason I am not quite as frightened as I was of bush.

What am I missing?

[BeyondGeography]

1. Yes

[zipplewrath]

2. About the same

Technically the word is probably "equivalent".

i.e. similar but not identical.

[katmondoo]

3. Far worse

The KKK will be his undoing

[spanone]

4. we will never find out.

[Mira]

32. Got off my prayer bench for a minute

to second your words.

[spanone]

38. ....

[0rganism]

59. yep, this "Trump presidency" is doomed to remain hypothetical

at the Republicans trying to rein-in this monster they've created.

[nichomachus]

5. Fortunately, no

What most people (including Trump) don't realize is that the president has very little real power all by himself. He's not an autocrat who holds the power of life and death.

Presidents need the Congress and the courts, as well as the agencies and the military, to do what they do. They also need a strong group of people around them. Bush was a cipher, but he had Cheney and Cheney had a whole array of people to do his bidding. That was a gang that had been in place and working together for decades. They weren't people that he just picked up off the street. He also had Wall Street behind him, Rupert Murdoch and the rest of the presstitutes.

Trump has none of that. He has no party behind him, no apparatus, Wall Street hates him, the presstitutes hate him, the Congress doesn't know whether to shit or go blind, the agencies -- and most important, the military -- have no use for him. If he says "Drop the bomb" and the military says "Fuck you," what does he do?

I had a friend who worked in the White House during the final days of Nixon. He told me that Nixon couldn't have started a war if he wanted to. For the last several months of his presidency, he had no power whatsoever.

[themonster]

54. interesting

You make good points. Unfortunately there are people who lack morals who will do his bidding. Just like at any workplace, there are those who will suck up to the boss to advance themselves. The presidency is a great power and many crave the power. I just hope we don't get to the point of finding out. No Trump in the White House.

[cemaphonic]

58. Bush also had a pretty consistent ideology and realistically achievable political goals

(tax cuts, neocon intervention in the ME, Social Security privatization) He didn't get all of it, but he got a lot, and he (and his cadre) had goals that they were working towards. Trump just says whatever he thinks will get Walmart Nation riled up without any thought as to if it is possible or not. He'd get bored and frustrated the second he figures out that he can't just bully Congress into doing whatever he wants.

[vdogg]

6. I didn't like Reagan

But I was never scared of him (I was also very young so my understanding of politics wasn't nuanced). I liked Bush I (again I was young), I hated Bush II (but again, I wasn't scared of him). I've never been scared of any politician, but I am terrified of Donald Trump. Bush, as bad as he was, not once ever advocated the banning of all Muslims or rounding them up and registering them, trump has. Bush never advocated the deportation of ALL Mexicans, Trump has. Bush never accepted the endorsement of the KKK with a wink and a nod while coyly disavowing them, Trump has. Bush was an idiot, and no matter how I wish he were, Trump isn't. People seem to be afraid that Trump doesn't know what he's doing. I'm afraid that he does.

[hamsterjill]

19. I was afraid of Bush.

I knew Bush's record in Texas and knew many of his idiot supporters and cronies. Their religion scared me because most of them sincerely believe that they are anointed by God. I would wake up every morning when Bush was President and wonder what he was going to do to us that day. I was so happy when he was out of the office.

But I must admit that I, too, would be terrified of a Trump Presidency. Trump has no barometer. Bush, at least, had his father and Dick Cheney to rein him in when needed. Trump doesn't have anyone that he would listen to. He's too much of an egotist and a blowhard.

[chillfactor]

7. yep disgusting....

Trump is an ego-maniac..everything is about him...he would use.the presidency to his advantage and destroy our relationship with other countries that Obama has worked so hard to maintain..trump has a big mouth and a temper he seems unable to control.

[narnian60]

31. +1

[MiniMe]

8. After the election in 2000,

I said to my friends we will be at war with Iraq withing 2 years. How could you have missed that, they tried to kill his Daddy.

Personally, I think we would have been better off with Saddam. I am in no way saying that he was a good man, he wasn't, and he was terrible for the Iraqi people, but he did keep Al Queda and other bad factions out of the country.

[LiberalArkie]

36. He was the leader the Iraqi people needed. You just did not want to cross him.

[lunatica]

9. taking his words to their logical extreme

He would haves us in a war against Mexico and most of South America in a year.

He'd start up the Cold War with all it's nuclear accouterments again with Putin

We'd be in full blown war with ISIS and damn the consequences and collateral damage.

Building prisons for all them muslims and illegals would create thousands of jobs.

waterboarding and other forms of torture would be the norm.



And that's just for starters.

[basselope]

15. I guess this is where i get stuck.

I don't believe he would actually DO any of that, except maybe the waterboarding, but I expect that from ALL the GOP candidates.

Maybe it is b/c I grew up in NY and have been listening to him most of my life. Maybe it was b/c I ACTUALLY supported his short lived flirtation with running on the reform ticket in 2000 on a platform of single payer and a one time wealth tax to eliminate the deficit.

I don't see him ACTUALLY trying to deport 11M people. There have been more deportations under Obama than any previous president... if he just keeps up the same record, he will tout it as success and his idiot followers will believe he is doing it.

I'm not sure which candidate keeps us out of a full blown war with ISIS... even Bernie says they must be eliminated, but takes the intelligent position that it needs to be a coalition led by Muslim troops.

I guess I also don't believe the Islam talk.

IDK.. Maybe I am just being incredibly naive, but of the possible choices (Cruz, Rubio, Trump).. I find him to be the least frightening.

I am also fairly convinced that unless Bernie is the nominee, Trump will win.

He will pick Kasich as his VP, seal up Ohio and the election. I don't see Clinton having a prayer against him.. so I am trying to prepare myself for the worst. (or at least convince myself it won't be AS BAD as it was under bush).

[lunatica]

22. Trump will do and say everything his base wants

Just like Bush did. The only difference is that Bush's base were the "haves" and the "have mores".

[basselope]

23. Maybe you are right, in which case I would be terrified.

However.. my impression of him is that he's just not nearly as crazy as the character he is currently playing.

I've known many people who have met him, worked with him and they all tell me they don't recognize this character.

Maybe I am just wrong and seeing what I want to see, because I don't see any way to avoid him and I am hoping for the best?

[lunatica]

25. His problem is he has the nasty tiger by the tail

LIke so many before him he thought he could wake the Angry Uneducated White Men up and shake their cages and rattle their chains and wave red meat around to get them salivating and hungry for blood only to find out that there was no way he could stop once they make him their master.

their loyalty will last only as long as he says and does what they want. He thought he was quite clever to roar their words and feeling back at them but as soon as he decides to move to the middle they'll burn him.

The Republican establishment is burning because they catered to the base for the entire time Obama has been President. They are at fault for birthing the likes of Cruz. Now they're trying desperately to retrieve some semblance of power, but it's too late. Their dragon is awake.

[basselope]

37. But.. what can THEY do once he is in office?

Play this out with me....

Clinton becomes the nominee and is easily defeated by a Trump Kasich ticket.

We now have President Trump, who winds up being a center right president (much like Obama). He doesn't do what the frothing masses want him to do, so they are angry at him... BUT because expectations are so low, the very act of not fucking up on a mass scale gets people to think "Hmm, he ain't so bad". I watched this happen in California with Ahhnold.

I think Trump can completely abandon the morons upon whose back he rode into the nomination and not face serious consequences because of it. These are the same idiots who continued to approve of bush even after the country went to complete hell. When it became obvious his promise of protecting "traditional marriage" (whatever the fuck that is) with a constitutional amendment never even got started.. they stuck with him. Even when the country was in the worst recession since the 1930s, he STILL had 27% support (those are the tigers trump has by the tail and they are too stupid to even realize when they have been played).

Again, this may be me psychologically mitigating what I fear may be to come and justifying that I will live through it.

[lunatica]

55. Look at the present Republicans in Congress

The base has made them move too far to the Right against President Obama. People in the House have to run for office every 2 years, so they're completely beholden to their base for continuing in their jobs. The Tea Party don't go home after the elections. They listen to the likes of Limbaugh and do what he suggests. They hound their representatives to do what Limbaugh wants them to do. All the time. And their way of putting pressure on the Congress is to call and write letters and send emails that are full of anger and threats. Even personal safety threats. Every political junkie will tell you this because occasionally it comes out how much our representatives live with threats, even death threats all the time now.

So if Trump decides to throw his base under the bus, they will respond by forcing the rest of the Republicans (through intimidation, and at the pleasure of Limbaugh) to never support him on anything. Just like they've done with Obama.

They'll do the same to Hillary or Bernie. The only way any Democratic President will get anything done is if the Democrats are in the majority in the House and the Senate. The days of the Democrats and Republicans working together is over as long as the Tea Party exists.

The good news is that it's made up of older Americans who will be dead in a couple of decades.

[basselope]

60. Yes, but he COULD ignore them.

I'm not saying he will.. but I think of all the GOP candidates.. he is the most likely to say F.U to the Tea Party republicans (even though he is using them right now) and just do what he wants to do once in office.

Again.. not saying there is any planet in which I would vote for him.. but of the options, I think he may be the least dangerous b/c I *THINK* he is just playing the part of a maniac to get elected.

[lunatica]

62. He could ignore them as you say

But the President isn't a dictator or royalty. He/she has to deal with Congress and can do very little if Congress resists. We've seen that scenario play out for the last 8 years.

The Tea Party base would go after the members of Congress, just like they do now.

The 'establishment Republicans' are becoming quickly irrelevant.

[basselope]

64. I hate going here.... but....

I don't think he would be as weak as Obama. Obama never really used the pressure of his office to get what he wanted. Forcing the public option via reconciliation? Nah. Go the mat with the GOP on the bush tax cuts? Nah. Call out members of his own party who are standing in his way? Nah.

When bush wanted something, the republicans fell in line because they twisted every arm possible to put pressure on them. They physically forced Lincoln Chaffee out of the party for DARING to vote against them on the Iraq War.

So here is a the problem in a nutshell. The majority of people don't vote, so the tail gets to wag the dog, b/c the minority who do vote put in the wackos they support, who do their bidding.

However, I don't believe Trump would play that game. I believe if he wanted to do something and GOPers weren't falling in line, he would call them out and shun them and use every trick in the book to get his way. (now whether that thing is good or bad remains to be seen), but I don't think he would allow himself to be controlled by congress the way Obama has (or the way Clinton would).

I know Bernie would stand up for what he wants and believes in against all obstacles. I believe Trump would do the same. Now, going by what he is saying right now, its all crazy shit he wants, but I kinda believe that once he gets into office, he will be just another Center Right, third way president. (I still wouldn't vote for him).

[Mira]

33. This is a well thought out and clearly presented post.

I find myself agreeing with much of what you say, specifically that Drumpf (see John Oliver's special) scares me the least, though I'm terrified of them all.

[vdogg]

10. And damn you for making me defend Bush

[Laura PourMeADrink]

11. No - he can not ! No one as evil as Junior et al. He and Cheney are war

criminals in my mind.

If it wasn't for all the obvious horror about his demeanor/racism, part of me would really like to see a president with such obvious business acumen who isn't beholden to big corps just to see if things could change. Of course, first of all, he'd have to get the congress to free itself from corp finance too (which would have to be step one)

Sometimes Trump brings up such obvious things to all of us - that they can not understand why we do and the only explanation is big money lobbying. Like the fact that the Government does not bid for insurance. Or the fact you can not go outside state lines for insurance and how competition will drive down prices.

[IsItJustMe]

50. I take issue with you're idea that people should be able to obtain

insurance outside their state. Fact of the matter is, if this were the case, states would have no control of what type of policies were to be issued. This means that insurance companies would register in states that have the weakest insurance regulations. What you would end up with is scam health insurance policies that have a hundred different reasons why you will not be covered under their policy for a variety of different reasons for a variety of different procedures. A complete nightmare. Horrible idea.

[Mike Nelson]

12. Yes...

...I hope GWB retains his title "Worst President since FDR" forever.

[WDIM]

13. Anytime the person who is President changes do you see much change in our Government?

For me the answer is no.
Maybe tax policy will change a little.
Maybe we will have boots on the ground instead of just using drones and proxy armies.

But the Federal Reserve remains sucking wealth to the top
Corporate protectionism remains sucking wealth to the top
Free trade deals still pass
CIA still interferes in global politics
We still support brutal dictators
We still spy on our own people
We still fight a war against our own people for growing a plant
The poor stay poor the rich get richer the middle class stays stagnant.
We still allow banksters to rob from hard workers.
We still have a poor education system
We still sell ourselves into debt slavery
We still under pay workers
We still allow corporations to use food stamps to subsidize their low pay.
We still can't afford healthcare
We still have prisons for profit
We still lock up more African Americans than any other race.
We still have corruption, greed, and cronyism at the highest levels
We still allow M$M to lie to us
We still allow Billionaires to buy our elected officials
We still are bombarded by messages of fear and division

I really don't think it matters who becomes president these things have become so ingrained in our legal codes and our culture the president can change but things are still the same.

[basselope]

18. You didn't see a change between Carter and Reagan? Clinton and bush?

You are correct about a ton in your list, but let me ask the big questions.

Do you think 9/11 happens under President Gore?
Do we go to war with Iraq under President Gore?
Do we have a great recession under President Gore?
Does Citizen's United become the law of the land after President Gore picks Supreme Court nominees?

Do the Yuppies and the concept of greed being good rise under President Carter?


Now, I will grant you, there is a TON of bad things that came along with President Clinton and President Obama and they did NOTHING to address your very comprehensive list. In many ways, they made them worse. The telecommunications act of 1996 destroyed media. (That was Clinton). Obama made the bush tax cuts permanent ensuring the rich get richer and poor stay poorer... Obama took single payer "off the table" and then threw the public option away assure that all people would ever get is health INSURANCE, instead of health CARE.

I could go on and on and it is the reason I could never support Hillary Clinton or vote for her (I am in Cali, so my vote doesn't matter)

But to say a President has almost no impact on government I think ignores a lot.

[WDIM]

24. Honestly

On the hypotheticals about Gore. 9/11 most definitely could of happened. The Democratic Machine seem to fall right in line with Bush on the Iraq war. The great recession was caused by Clinton Deregulating the Banks so yeah we probably would of.

Had Carter become President instead of Reagan I do think many things would be different now but only slightly.

From Carter to Reagan was a big change. But since Reagan our policies have been pretty much the same only tilting the playing field in favor of the wealthy more and more.

[vdogg]

41. 9/11 would've happened whoever was president

The aftermath of 9/11 is where the difference would've occurred. A dem president would have treated it as a criminal act, and used police action combined with surgical strikes and targeted raids. Iraq simply wouldn't have happened, but we still would've gone to Afghanistan in some capacity.

[tabasco]

14. Appointing buddies/unqualified people/bootlickers to high positions...

lots of bad things can happen.

E.g. Condi Rice as National Security Advisor.

[Wounded Bear]

16. Absolutely...

I"m pretty sure nothing much that happened in the first term was really Dubya, mostly Cheney, Rummy, and other behind the scenes actors.

Trump will want to be in control. That is scary.

[TipTok]

17. Absolutely...

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

20. Probably not. Cruz would be worse than Bush.

Trump will be his own boss, he wouldn't have a Dick Cheney as veep.

[shanti]

44. just a thought...

but he could possibly have someone worse than the dick.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

21. Absolutely.

I could only hope that Congress and the SCOTUS will prevent him from being too horrible.

[UCmeNdc]

26. Yes, he would be.

[olddots]

27. mix thermo dynamics , entropy and over 7 billion people

and we are lucky if we make it till monday .

[maxsolomon]

28. Of course he could

his bit fat mouth could wind up getting NK to launch a nuke at Japan. I can see several scenarios that are worse than *.

[KansDem]

29. Bush was stupid...Trump is shrewd...

Anyone who can say the comments he's been saying and be the GOP front-runner knows how to manipulate the American people.

Bush was just a dumb shit who didn't know if he should be picking his nose while scratching his butt, or vice-versa.

Trump is much, much more dangerous...

[Skittles]

30. NEVER ask if one repuke can be worse than another

the answer is ALWAYS *YES*

[Vinca]

34. It's hard to imagine how anyone can beat Bush's body count, but I suppose if anyone

could do it, Trump would be the man. I have to say though, between Trump and Cruz, Cruz scares me a whole lot more. I guess it's things like the "killing gays" guy supporting him and his whackadoodle father. I'm convinced his mission would be to bring us all to Jesus.

[Agnosticsherbet]

35. At the risk of a Goodwinism, nobody thought Hitler would be that bad. We can not guess how Trump

will use the US government.
If Republican fears prove to be false, he will have absolute Control of the House and Senate.
If you are not concerned about him, you should be concerned with Republicans who will be more than happy to have a President that can use a Pen to pass their wet dream bills.
He will appoint a replacement for Scalia, which perpetuates the Right Wing court. (I don't think the Republicans will approve Obama's appointed replacement.)
And...
Anthony Kennedy Age: 79 yr 7 mo
Ruth Bader Ginsburg 82 yr 11 mo
Stephen Breyer 77 yr 6 mo

Which of these will be the next to go. Kennedy is a swing vote, but Ginsburg and Breyer are the core of the left wing of the court.

And there are a lot of vacancies on the lower court that Republicans have refused to fill.

He could remake the Supreme Court for a generation.

It is not Trump that scares me, it is what he could do with that office.

[basselope]

40. I guess I left out one thing.

IF the GOP actually leaves the SC seat empty, I think that is the ONLY way Clinton can win, because that thought that Trump could IMMINENTLY appoint someone to the court would be enough to motivate people to turn out.

I STRONGLY suspect they will get someone seated before the election.

Unfortunately, the electorate isn't smart enough to understand the rest of what you said... They try to use the hypothetical supreme nominations EVERY election cycle to absolutely NO benefit. However, if one is ACTUALLY pending, it is a wedge issues the democrats can use VERY effectively.

But.. I don't think the GOP leadership is dumb enough to go that route. Maybe I am underestimating them.

I am also slightly afraid of Obama appointing some center right person to appease them, just to get the seat filled, because I honestly don't think the democrats understand how strong a wedge issue this is for them!

You can LITERALLY make this election ABOUT Citizen's United which is the one ruling a super majority of the country wants to see go away and the right justice can make it happen!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

39. Oh, he most definitely could.

Trump could be the Emperor Nero of the United States.

[shanti]

42. i'm more afraid of who

will be pulling his strings....just like shrub. we know how THAT ended.

[Shoulders of Giants]

43. Bush never called for a blanket ban on all Muslims

Therefore, Trump is without question worse.

[basselope]

45. bush said A LOT of things he never meant to follow through on.

Remember his promise to push through a constitutional amendment on gay marriage? Never even tried.

[robhalf4369]

46. He would definitely give Bush a run for his money in being a terrible leader

He will destroy this country during his term. God help us all if he gets elected.

[PufPuf23]

47. What happened slightly before then under GWB

1. Stolen POTUS election facilitated by USSC

2. 9-11

3. Illegal war in Iraq

4. Impeachment is off the table

5. Financial collapse

The Democrats won the POTUS but deemed best to move forward and not attach responsibility.

We still sort of looked like the United States and gained some on some social issues.

What would happen with Trump?

We would live in an authoritarian dystopia.

There would be more war - international scapegoats - and organized political violence would be common domestically.

Not a good time to be a handy scapegoat.

We don't want to elect Trump.

[craigmatic]

48. Trum is bush on steroids and crack minus the facade of religion.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

49. I actually did expect Bush to get in war with Iraq.

I remember making a comment about that to my husband right after Bush was declared the winner. I thought Bush Jr was going to want to finish what his daddy started over there.

Can Trump be worse than Bush? Sure, why not. He mostly certainly can be worse than Bush. Tea party types have been selecting terrible, worse than Bush types ever since they became a thing at the beginning of Obama's presidency. To me, nothing is certain about Trump. I think he is lying pretty much all the time. Trump hasn't been involved in government at any level. W had experience being gov. of Texas at least.

[MisterP]

51. 50-foot-high grease fire vs. 20-foot-high magnesium fire: take yer pick

[PatrickforO]

52. Oh yeah. He can definitely be worse than Bush.

I mean look at where all the white supremacists are flocking, and look at how Trump is encouraging that.

No, Trump is the worst thing this nation has faced in many years, because he's a nascent Hitler. Any candidate who talks about forcing people who belong to a certain religion to 'register' and banning any more coming into the country is DEFINITELY going the Hitler route and I want NOTHING to do with him or his supporters.

[Kip Humphrey]

53. Depends... Where's Cheney?

[gollygee]

56. Yeah

Bush was horrible obviously, but we don't even realize at this point how bad it could get. Trump could absolutely be worse.

[Turborama]

57. Busch didn't start a thermonuclear war.

Drumpf is such a psychotic loose cannon I wouldn't be surprised if he launched one, 'just to see what happens'.


http://www.expressnews.com/news/news_columnists/brian_chasnoff/article/Trump-I-love-war-6630963.php

[KentuckyWoman]

61. It can always be worse.

Well, until humans manage to extinct themselves.....

[backscatter712]

63. He could make Murder Monkey look like an elder statesman. n/t

[L. Coyote]

65. Trump emulates Bush, albeit badly.

[ozone_man]

66. Not missing much.

Trump appears not to be a war hawk like Bush or Clinton.

He has said that Social Security would be safe under him, unlike Bush or Clinton.

He's not so good on immigration issues. He might be (probably is) a racist.

Is it more racist to create foreign wars, where we have the poor, disproportionally black, fight to keep the 0.1% in power and living comfortably? I think having a necessary military service would insure there are no more foreign wars.

He's anti-establishment, unlike Bush or Clinton.

It would be a tough call. I'd prefer to get Bernie elected, and then there will be no compromises.

[basselope]

68. I'd prefer to get Bernie elected + 1000000000000000000000

*900000

[Aerows]

67. To be honest? No

Bush was the worst President of my lifetime, and I hope to all that is sacred and true that a politician with Bush's character never again gets close to legislation, let alone enters the White House.