Can I just say "Because I'm not a socialist?"

[Cats Against Frist]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by BooScout (a host of the General Discussion forum).

I'm super liberal -- and by liberal, I mean LIBERAL -- not left-authoritarian like too many people I know these days -- and too many Bernie supporters.

I wan't to repeal Citizens United. I want to stop corruption in the big banks -- but I have it pretty good. A nice salary, middle class level of personal wealth, good family support -- I have my weaknesses, but this life is finally good to me and I've worked my butt off for what I have, and my parents did -- we came from nothing -- and I believe in hard work and while I want equal opportunity, I believe "equal outcome" is a recipe for social engineering and a Stalin-sized body count.

I support Hillary mostly because I would still choose the shitshow we have now over hard core socialism. Has the party moved so far left that I can't say that without being accused of being a Republican? Can't I still believe in capitalism with regulations and a safety net?

I just ask because I'm in the arts and around people who are mostly looney-tooney and would vote The Shining Path into the White House. I need a point of reference.

Are there still people out there who are LIKE ME???

[beam me up scottie]

1. "hard core socialism"? "social engineering and a Stalin-sized body count"?

[haikugal]

2. OMG!!

I needed that!! What a hoot

[beam me up scottie]

3. It's been a while since we had a good old fashioned red baiting thread.

[haikugal]

4. Must be an itch that must be scratched...

[octoberlib]

35. +1 This made me laugh. Thanks!

[Ed Suspicious]

5. We are not left authoritarians. We are quite the opposite. Left, for sure, but not authoritarian.

You don't understand Bernie or his supporters. . .

That or you are lying to create a narrative that serves your candidate. You'll have to figure out which.

[Cats Against Frist]

8. The people that I'm around are left authoritarians

They want a completely equalized society with nationalized everything and they are all SJWs -- to the point where you can't make a cogent argument because "reason belongs to cis white men."

I feel myself slowly going insane and I'm trying to figure out what the deal is. I don't hate Bernie -- I just don't like his more vocal supporters.

Hell -- when I was young, I would have been all over Bernie. That is, until I grew up and worked hard. Now I'm like -- okay -- Clinton's welfare thing was fine guys -- what's the problem?

I'm just asking if that passes for being a Republican now.

[Ed Suspicious]

10. Yeah, that sounds dangerously close to Republican to me. We just differ on what is social justice.

"Hell -- when I was young, I would have been all over Bernie. That is, until I grew up and worked hard. Now I'm like -- okay -- Clinton's welfare thing was fine guys -- what's the problem?"

I think maybe you are making an honest attempt to figure it out. I mistook this OP as performance. If you are actually trying to parse the differences, good on you. Assuming that's the case, thanks for not being a manipulative asshole.

[Cats Against Frist]

11. But Welfare Reform WASN'T Republican

I'm saying 19 years ago, the most popular sitting Democratic president signed that law. I just can't believe how left the left has gotten -- and I'm trying to figure out if it's all like that. I think I'm a centrist Democrat -- I wouldn't vote for a Republican -- so what's with the hate (from further lefties)?

[Ed Suspicious]

15. Democrats fought to preserve and enhance social safety nets until that fateful presidency when they

didn't. That was not the policy of a democrat. That was the action of a conservative. The Clintons changed what it is to be a democrat. Welfare reform was a reaction to Republicans. It sounded a lot like today's Social Security reform.

[Cats Against Frist]

22. Maybe my net is a little smaller than some that are further left than me

So, I might be socially liberal and fiscally slightly more conservative. And there might be people, like yourself, who believe in a bigger safety net -- those people have always been Democrats.

I'm saying that there's a huge contingent in my circle of FAR LEFT democrats -- people who have always been there, but now seem to be like blanketly stupid about the history of socialism. And I understand democratic socialism vs. socialism -- or maybe I don't, because it seems like kind of a canard -- same guns pointed at your forehead, just by vote, right?

Bernie wants me to pay $15000k more in taxes each year. I already have health insurance. I have saved for my son's college education. He's not going to Harvard either. We'll be borrowing the max in student loans and he'll use his college fund to go to a state school. Just like my ass did. Just like what I'm paying off now.

I'm talking about hand-ups, not handouts. Is this no longer a thing?

[CdnExtraNational]

27. Well coming from Canada originally we've got socialism figured out...

You could look at the Bernie Sanders platform...

1) Medicare for all means that you won't lose your health insurance if your job situation changes or you decide you want to start your own business in your later years

2) Free public college and university means you wouldn't have to pay all your heard earned savings for your son's education; which you might need in case your situation changes

Yes you may pay some more taxes, but that money now goes to insure free public college and university and health care for everyone else so that...

1) You don't have to see people walking around begging for money with a huge goider or terrible skin conditions; not to mention all the other families facing horrible health crisis because of poor medical coverage or can't pay deductables
2) Your son might get a better job later because someone who couldn't have afforded to go to university did and started a successful company that needs to hire your son; not to mention that you could use some of that hard earned savings to help your son start his own business

[eShirl]

43. Welfare reform was Republican schtick that B. Clinton cheerfully coopted.

[octoberlib]

37. I get it. You think young people are stupid

and lazy. Wow.

[Fairgo]

40. I am equally agog

the cognitive dissonance is astounding

[HughBeaumont]

50. Well, for starters, you might want to dial back the Red Baiting just a tad.

Also, stop using the term "Social Justice Warrior"; that's a Republican and Right-Libertarian snarl word. Social Justice is not a bad thing. Saying it is makes you look like a Power Rangers villain. Or a Republican.

Last but not least, there is no value in demonizing others unless they're truly doing something unfair . . . . like being a billionaire and taking corporate welfare, or suppressing people's wages or actively voting to destroy human rights or cut veteran's benefits (like "Support The Troops" Republicans do). A sign of evolving means you have come around to understand this. A sign of knuckle-dragging means one is either still fighting the Cold War or jealous of those who have next to nothing and calling them leeches.

[Cats Against Frist]

6. I'm not intentionally trying to do something like that

This is a serious question -- everyone I'm around has beliefs that make my eyeballs want to pop out -- things this Gen Xer can't believe!! I need to know if that's the norm or what.

[Marrah_G]

57. I don't think you sound liberal.

I think you sound like a moderate republican.

[LeftyMom]

7. Translation: You got yours and fuck the rest of us.

Sadly yes, there are a lot of people like you.

[Cats Against Frist]

9. So, because I'm not a socialist, it's "fuck the rest of you?"

See -- good sense regulations and safety net used to be called "A Democrat."

Now, apparently, this.

[LeftyMom]

18. You're really not good at this.

You post a rambling OP about how You Worked Hard!!! to come up from nothing. Good for you, do you want a sticker?

The hardest working people I know can barely keep food in their kids' mouths by the end of the month. The system is fucked and hard work alone won't get most people anything but the chance to keep working until their bodies give out.

I spent my day yesterday trying to convince a literal goddamn death panel that my dad has enough coverage above and beyond his medicare to afford the surgery he needs to stay alive, so you'll forgive me if I'm not real forgiving of any cryptofascist bootstrap fetishism today. People who have done nothing but work their asses off are suffering and dying in this country. Not being one of them doesn't make you a bad person, but ignoring their plight because you see commies under the bed does.

[Cats Against Frist]

19. You're not from the "logic and reason are for cis white men" camp, are you? n/t

[LeftyMom]

21. Logic is awesome. Do you want me to recommend a book so you can learn it?

Clearly you're upset that women and people of color talk back to you, even though you're a white guy with money and expect to have your ass kissed. Poor baby, you were born in the wrong decade, that's probably why you talk about left-leaning politics like you learned political theory from the HUAC hearings.

[Cats Against Frist]

23. I'm a woman and I have an advanced degree in political science. And you wouldn't be an ageist, would

you? Do you get mad when old people talk? (I'm 40)

[King_Klonopin]

30. You have a degree in poli-sci, yet throw around the "socialist" label so cavalierly ?

You're obviously not stupid, so why act obtuse? You know why he claimed to be a "Socialist".
It was because he thinks the Democratic party was selling its souls by becoming centrists and
triangulators. This is a peeve I have about Bernie critics:

You use the label "socialist" as a derogatory smear, but you can't identify even ONE of his
positions which causes you offense.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

12. Can't I still believe in capitalism with regulations and a safety net?

Yes. Democratic Socialism.

Are you serious?

[Cats Against Frist]

13. Back in my day, that wasn't called "socialism." n/t

[Hassin Bin Sober]

16. Yeah, it was called the Democratic Party.

[Ed Suspicious]

17. Precisely! It wasn't called leftist either. Bluedogs shifted the center.

[Cats Against Frist]

20. My impression is that the far left ate the candy bar all the way up to the center

and left a tiny little slice of nougat for traditional democrats like m'self. Or, that's what it feels like.

[shenmue]

14. Yep

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. As long as I can call myself a Left Libertarian.

[Wounded Bear]

25. If you really think that the Democratic Party has gone "too far left"....

there's not much we can do for you around here. I kind of understand what you're saying, and I'm not in total disagreement, but I don't think there are that many "authoritarian socialists" around here. That would be more akin to communism.

Bernie isn't really that far to the left, and the only thing he is trying to 'socialize' IIRC is medical delivery. I don't want to get lost in a semantic battle about the definitions, but just because you think your friends want to follow "The Shining Path" doesn't mean that represents the beliefs of most Bernie-bots.

It's just that the Republican lite, DLC line of the Democratic Party is getting old to a lot of us, and no longer represents many of the values we think the Dem party should be about.

The Party has not gone too far left, that's propaganda from the RW echo chamber, worthy of Fox News or hate radio, not of a discussion around here.

Make no mistake, I'll take Hillary over any Repub, but she's my fall back, not as bad as the Republican position.

[CBGLuthier]

26. 1950 called. They want their rabid anti communism back.

Please let go.

[SheilaT]

28. Do you think Social Security should remain?

How about Medicare?

If you say yes to both, you are a socialist, although in this country we absolutely don't get that.

[Chan790]

29. What you're describing wanting is what Sanders is running on and Hillary opposes as unobtainable.

So...the bigger issue is that your candidate is opposed to the success of people like you and what you want because it's anathema to her big business friends. You're not even like you and neither is your candidate.

So, I need a point of reference too...is the cult of Hillary so strong that you don't see the cognitive dissonance of supporting a center-rightest that wants to sell you to Wall St. and take all you've obtained away from you to give it to Jamie Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein?

You're not a Republican...you're just caught up in the Clintonian lie.

[cwydro]

31. This belongs in the GD -P forum. nt

[Democat]

32. Wrong forum to put down Democratic candidates

The Primaries forum is for attacking Democrats.

[CharlotteVale]

33. In other words "I've got mine."

[RandiFan1290]

34. Someone loves their Bush tax cuts

[KG]

36. I lulz'd

[Shankapotomus]

38. As another poster responded:

The "I've got mine" syndrome.

Pure "hard work" may seem a valid solution from your perspective and circumstances but not everyone is graced with the same circumstances.

[unc70]

39. Where do you find these left authoritarians?

You say you know a lot of them. Seriously, where are they? Part of the country? Social or business environmen? Do any of them claim to be Democrats?

You sound exactly like many of the Repubs around here who claim that all Dems are going to take their hard-earned gains and give their money, even property, to those to lazy to work. These have been the RW Repub and RW libertarian talking points since they opposed Social Security. These TPs were honed by Jesse Helms and others.

You sound like you could be stirring the pot in favor of you candidate. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, but it isn't easy for me.

[eridani]

41. If you use any public goods, you sure the hell are a socialist

Because public goods are socialist by nature.

[FrodosPet]

44. You can be both a socialist AND a capitalist!

Having a mixed economy rules. Socialism, like libraries, roads, police and firefighters, to take care of human needs that cannot be taken care of profitably by private entities. And capitalism to pay for socialism and provide a wide variety of consumer oriented goods and services.

[eridani]

46. Markets have nothing to do with ownership of the means of production

Worker owned co-ops are not capitalist, and can also fund public goods. Still, capitalist ownership can be regulated.

[eridani]

42. The socialist Obama has done a number of good things

In spite of being a Kenyan Muslim.

[DLevine]

45. Bootstraps!

If you don't have bootstraps, die quickly, useless eater!

[kdmorris]

51. I almost spit my coffee all over the screen

Yep... exactly so.

[mr blur]

47. Well "hard core socialism" got us the NHS here, among other things -

but you go ahead with your nice middle-class paternalistic beliefs. There's always someone worse off than you, but you don't need to bother about them.

[mhatrw]

48. Who the fuck is advocating HARD CORE SOCIALISM?

[avebury]

49. When did it become ok to make socialism just as dirty a word as democratic?

I don't view Bernie Sanders as a Stalin styled socialist and to infer that is absurd.

The biggest group of welfare hogs in this country are the Corporations and 1%ers. What is wrong with wanting them to pay their fair share of taxes, pay their employees living wages, rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, making sure that our citizens get decent educations, have access to safe products, food & water?

Companies like Walmart rely upon tax payers to provide their employees with government benefits so that they don't have to pay them living wages. Companies like General Electric don't even pay taxes. Companies like Nestle believe that water should be a marketable commodity and not a human right. Corporations like the MIC think that wars should be continuous to provide a permenant source of income for their military products. A reasonable level of regulations creates consequences for actions when Wall Street and the Banks play fast and loose with our money or make sure that corporations produce safe products. When did it become acceptable for the American people to not know what is in the food and beverages that they consume?

When it become ok for the main stream media to be in the pocket of big business and so, instead of independently reporting the news, the manufacture it based upon the orders of their corporate overlords (including influencing elections). The concept of fair and balanced reporting is not a legal requirement.

Like it or not the only truly peoples' candidate this year is Bernie Sanders.

[BlandGrenade]

52. AMERICA IS ALREADY A SOCIALIST NATION

Bernie would just like to extend it to the rest of us, the 99%.

Did you enjoy watching the banks distribute the no-strings-attached bailout money as bonuses? Have you noticed how much cheaper and more accessible goods and loans have become since the bailout, as thanks for saving their asses? Has your student debt been renegotiated or even forgiven, as a bailout so many of us now need in the new economy? Didn't think so.

I'm in a situation similar to you, I am a commercial artist and I make lots of money. I'm surrounded by liberals who, like me, remember surviving on instant noodles, who have a mountain of student debt, and think college should be more affordable, public schools should be free, and that America could use a dose of European socialism because unlike low-information voters and those who don't even have passports, we have traveled to other countries and have seen first hand the raw deal we've been sold as "freedom" is really a corporate dictatorship.

I wouldn't go so far as to call you a republican, but you do seem to exhibit the tree house mentality, and that just ain't progressive man.

[Bluenorthwest]

53. You are hilarious and sound very needful and frightened of loss. It is also sad to read any post by

anyone which displays so much contempt for their peers and co-workers. I've been an arts professional my entire life and I've never met anyone who was in the arts while being surrounded by 'hardcore socialists' while also making shit tons of money. How did you find a group of hard core socialists whose work is generating all that cash? If they are so 'hard core' why is this company not a collective or co-op, why are you profiting so greatly?

I mean, it sounds made up and editorial to me. What sort of 'arts' are you in where you are all about money and status but everyone else is a 'hard core socialist'?
It's hilarious material....

[Vinca]

54. Do your friends and associates have a good sense of humor or

does your red baiting offend them?

[madokie]

55. We'll see about that

when it comes time to take advantage of our socialist programs. Social Security and Medicare for a couple of those, not to mention our LEO's, our roads, hell just about everything that makes our way of life the way we live it possible is a form of socialism

[Marrah_G]

56. Your post made me laugh

People here are democratic socialists...not Stalin fanboys. Drama much?

[Doctor_J]

58. So you don't use libraries or public schools or social security or tap water, I take it

Good on you

[BooScout]

59. Locking...

Posts about the Democratic primaries...are forbidden. Please consider re-posting this in General Discussion: Primaries.