Nazi Germany is the closest analogy to what is going on currently. And no I was not calling our side

[nadinbrzezinski]

Nazi Germany is the closest analogy to what is going on currently. And no I was not calling our side of the candidates nazis.. for that matter, even though Mr Trump reminds me of Hitler, trumpism, is so different from Nazism that I could not call him a nazi either. If you know anything about the rise of Adolph Hitler though, you will know that the media at the time laughed at Hitler. (For the record, they also made fun of Mussolini, but that is a far less known rise to power in the United States)

At the time, this might sound familiar, the German press gave a lot of coverage to that corporal from Bavaria. After he took power, they just outright took control of the media and they took away any protections media might have had. Hmm ok, let me point to this one, from Donald Trump

Donald Trump has been filing and threatening lawsuits to shut up critics and adversaries over the whole course of his career. He dragged reporter Tim O’Brien through years of litigation over a relatively favorable Trump biography that assigned a lower valuation to his net worth than he thought it should have. He sued the Chicago Tribune’s architecture critic over a piece arguing that a planned Trump skyscraper in lower Manhattan would be “one of the silliest things” that could be built in the city. He used the threat of litigation to get an investment firm to fire an analyst who correctly predicted that the Taj Mahal casino would not be a financial success. He sued comedian Bill Maher over a joke.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160301/23422633778/yes-donald-trump-can-create-problems-free-speech-first-amendment.shtml

Now what Trump is doing, and the malfeasance from large corporate media in how they are reporting this race, go straight to the end of the fairness doctrine, that first started to be chipped at by the Reagan white house, but ended in 1996 with the Telecommunications Act during the Bill Clinton administration. During the Bush administration it also became legal to do propaganda within the United States. Did I mention Fairness was passed during the FDR years to prevent precisely what we are watching? I though I should.

This is by the by an aspect of fascism... control of the media, whether directly, or indirectly is indeed a marker, Talk of this was constant here on DU during the Bush administration. This was discussed during the Bush administration extensively.

Now to understand how we are at the historic moment we are, and yes comparisons to Nazi Germany will continue because I told you that some of this looks like oh the Chile of General Pinochet, I am betting a great majority here has no clue what I am talking about By the way, there are parallels to that as well, (thanks Mr Kissinger.) We taught Pinochet how to do it. In fact, our advisers were down there, teaching them how to do it. As they say, those birds are coming home to roost.

So let's take a stroll though history, shall we? Some of this is very recent, some not so much.

The prehistory of this is actually that third rate burglary at the Watergate hotel. The pardon that President Gerald Ford gave Richard Milhaus Nixon, set the first precedent when elites will never face the music. Iran Contra, during the Reagan administration set the next step, and finally the Obama administration taking any investigations off the table for the Bush crime family (seems odd to use that term, but correct) cemented this. I partly understand this, Empires tend not to hold those in power accountable, alas impunity for those in power is also a marker of fascism. There is literally nothing a well connected person in the United States can do. We do have two systems of justice..

Then come things like having supporters beat the shit out of people at rallies. That environment actually started with Bush, Remember the free speech zones? Yeah they were lovely and violated the same exact first amendment that Trump wants to step over. The Reichstag Fire led to the Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State. This eliminated that free press that had laughed at the rise of Hitler, It was followed by the Enabling Act which has a few things in parallel to the United State Patriot Act. You would have to read both, and both were ready to go.

Of course that was preceded by this..



And later on we have had a supporter of Rand Paul, well his security man, hit the living daylights out of a protester...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/25/rand-paul-supporter-stomps-head_n_773857.html

And we have had, Clinton's security brutalize Ray McGovern in 2011

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-kall/former-cia-agent-ray-mcgo_b_824433.html

Fast forward to this campaign...

We know what Trump has done with both press and protesters. One of the stories on this is from Salon and there are plenty more

http://www.salon.com/2016/02/29/theres_no_more_denying_trumps_campaign_of_hate_how_he_built_a_coalition_of_americas_bullies_xenophobes_bigots/

We are at a very dangerous moment, that BOTH parties have set the table for. Does this mean the year of flags? Does this means concentration camps? No. at least not yet. We are deep into a transformation of American society from a democracy to a pretend democracy.

I could make references to things you do not understand. The handy recognizable, we can all agree we more or less understand is the rise of Hitler. There are aspects to what we are seeing that have a lot more in common with both Argentina and Chile. For example, the Seattle WTO march and the suppression of Occupy have a lot more in common with early dirty wars all over Latin America. But that is alien to most of you. Yet, Hitler is somewhat familiar.

This year we also have another thing in common actually with the Third Reich. We literally have a radical right candidate, running against a center right candidate (that be Clinton) and a center left Candidate, (that be Sanders), No I am not playing the stupid games that Americans tend to play. The range of acceptable political discussion almost excludes Sanders from that discussion. This also happened in Germany, and unlike Germany though, we do not have an organized left. No we do not have one, not in your most feverish imaginations. That part of the story was taken care off starting with the Turner Raids of the 1920s, why the red baiting is far from working. Also the cold war has been over for a generation, but the dreaded left, is not even close to a sack of cats on the way to the river.

What we also have in common is the race baiting and hate. That was a daily occurrence in Germany and we are starting to see these incidents in the US. Oh and before you scream Trump, he has increased and emboldened them, but he is far from alone and it did not start this cycle

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2005/white-supremacists-unleash-hate-crime-backlash-against-minorities-california%E2%80%99s-inland

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/white-374363-orange-county.html

These are just two examples, from before the campaign.

So what form will our new fascist state take?

History never quite repeats itself, but the echoes do. Professor Woolin has already described it in Democracy Inc. The illusion of freedom will be maintained, as all your devises continue to be piped into NSA. The illusion includes places like this where I can post this. I can already hear the retort, but fascist states...

When needed, there will be moments when you will be asked to report on stuff. If you see something, say something. (It has somewhat of a value in certain conditions, but), We will continue to condition populations to not make waves. This ranges from TSA checks at the airport, to inner city schools that look more like prisons.



And yes, given the role of the media these days. and it is no longer hidden, we will have pretend elections.

One of the escapes from the Panotpicon is actually the web, This is why younger kids have a very different view of the world than regular evening news watchers. And we will continue to play the cynical game of divide and conquer. And why the web will be closed down... nothing can challenge the official view. Yeah, you will be able to go on it, but they will find a way to control it. They know that Sanders would never be where he is, if we only had TV and papers. That is a fact Jack, take it to the bank.

And if you get the idea to get out of the prescribed areas of behavior, we will bash your skull in.

Is this dystopia, yes... but Shadowrun references are appropriate at this point...



Carry on.

One edit, thank you DU'er. oh the irony. Drescher endorsed Trump. Again, that does not shock me, Many in the intellectual class will before long...

Some of the questions asked before... it is important to note that the intellectual class is not the talking heads on TV, They are part and parcel of the problem. We are talking writers and philosophers, who will have a to male a choice. Support the regime, or in the end become political prisoners or refugees.

The other comment I would like to address, the elastic moment is an interesting comment, but I do not thing we will pull back from this dark night, unless a lot of people wake up pretty damn fast. We are talking millions here... and they do not become afraid once they wake up.

Finally Greece. It is a truism in Europe that when bad times come, the Right rises from the ashes. Unfortunately, Americans generally speaking cannot find the US on a map, let alone Greece. I could show the data on this. So we go back to a single model that people are more or less familiar with. And for god sakes they are not familiar with hours. During the same period we had a pretty healthy
US Nazi party.



This is not Germany, this is Maddison Square Garden. So what we are seeing is also a resurgence of that way of thinking that has been around for a long time. This is why the KKK and every other white power organization, starting at a well known site, I will not mention here, have endorsed Trump.

So this is what is going on at a very deep level. I understand this discussion might make some folks very uncomfortable. But it is what it is, a necessary discussion, Edited out...

Oh and for previous discussion on this, see this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511409254

And this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511411520

And the note from the last lock for the hosts of GD, since there are references to the two presidential candidates in the Primaries

etherealtruth (18,143 posts)
16. I am sorry LOCKING, GD: P is for discussion of DEM candidates/ dem primaries

This edited version of the post may be reposted in GD, if you so choose. It is not within the SoP for GDP

I am tempted to reach for the tinfoil at this point.

[Autumn Colors]

1. Three's a charm?

K&R -- hope the thread stays up this time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I know, I know

[msongs]

3. from Cabaret - Tomorrow Belongs to Me - vote for who your children vote for nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. In this case you are missing the point by an extremely wide margin

you did not even get close to the barn yard. I think you missed that one by a few miles.

[jwirr]

5. Thank you for the history. So many of us do not know it or

do not remember it. I actually gave my Sinclair Lewis book away because I thought we would never go beyond W.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. You welcome

[stevenleser]

7. Most right wing populism tends to have a similar feel even if there are distinct differences.

This is particularly so when the person/group is pushing scapegoating of a vulnerable minority, in Trump's case, Undocumented immigrants and Muslims.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Correct, that is one of the tools

[nichomachus]

9. The differences are more significant than the similarities

Trump is a racist demagogue, as was Hitler. That's pretty much where the similarities end.

The Nazi party existed before Hitler. In fact, there were any number if similar parties in Germany. Hitler had spellbinding oratorical skills. (Trump, on the other hand, just tosses out a few phrases now and then as red meat to his "base.&quot

The party had an agenda before Hitler came along. However, his oratorical skills pushed him to the front. Also, Hitler had an agenda. He had a clear plan. He had written a book on it. Trump has no party, no plan, no agenda.

Hitler had an apparatus to work with. Trump has nothing. The only people who like him are a bunch of older, poorly educated folk.

For Trump to succeed -- even if elected -- he would need the Congress, the courts, the agencies, and the military. He has none of that. He would end up making speeches and spend the rest of his time arranging pencils on his desk and making phone calls to people who would never return them. In short order, he would probably go mad.

Trump is an idiot and an asshole. His only success will be in totally destroying the GOP -- which has been dead for a long time and lacking only someone to push them over. Trump is that guy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. That is why I also wrote that history never, ever, like EVER

repeats itself.

It has echoes though.

And why I also wrote, and we are in the midst of it already that this is not nazi Germany, nor is he a nazi, Inverted totalitarianism (and yes this is a new form of fascism) is at play here.

The only problem is that if I made allusions to oh Mexico... you would likely have no clue what I am talking about. Nor do I expect larger rallies at Nur... er Washington DC either.

[nichomachus]

11. But there have been a lot of racist demagogues in the US

Some of them have run for president. Trump isn't that unusual. I don't know why everyone wants to turn him into Hitler. I suppose it makes good sensationalist writing, but it's just not true.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Because I do expect really bad things to happen if he becomes POTUS

and I give him good odds of winning the presidency, and we were among the first to give him good odds of the nomination.

It will be more, I suspect, in the line of the dirty wars in LatAm, which we have seen already, with things like Occupy, more than Treblynka. Could we get to a full fledged genocide? Yes. I would never, ever discount that.

We are already deep into the transformation of this society and he is registering, because the ground is very fertile at the moment. The only model that Americans truly are somewhat, and it is somewhat familiar, with the rise of a fascist government is mid century Germany. All other models are a haze best case.

So that is why you keep hearing those comparisons. Some of what he is doing is Hitler like, some of it is quite frankly Luis Echeverria Alvarez like. (And I doubt that will make any sense to 99 percent of the posters here)

[FiveGoodMen]

17. Hitler had the jews labeled, remember?

Ever hear anything similar from Trump?

[HereSince1628]

13. My CTs run more toward Trump having started out as a Stalking Horse

who purpose was to use his private wealth to stay in the primary and divide the rep. base when he got huffy and left. I think his success may have set him on a different trajectory. But he still threatens them as the great spoiler.

If there's any question to be asked about a Trump presidency it's really whether the US Congress would vote to enable Trump to govern as the authoritarian CEO which is the only thing his personality and experience have prepared him to be.

Trump, like Scott Walker, and yes, like Hitler, can't be anything without enabling support of a legislature. Trump with enabling support would be damaging to America.

Chris Christie not withstanding I don't see a whole lot of evidence that republicans running for congress are rallying to Trump.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. He first considered this in 2000

so forgive me for not believing that theory for a second. And yes, Big Dog did have a talk, but I still do not believe it. What if Big Dog (and we will never know) tried to convince him NOT TO RUN?

by the way, the fact that the GOP is not rallying around Trump means that you have at least one major sector of the party (business) not liking the idea of a trade war. That is really bad for the bottom line.

[HereSince1628]

15. When tossing around CTs, which are fantasies, everyone gets to have their own.

Nativists of all types can be scary in their rhetoric, yes that's true. But Trump's support is more like the Know Nothings than fascista.

And I don't see Trump as being even as effective as Millard Fillmore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. I see him in the White House

and this is not a CT theory...

As to how effective he will be... I do not expect Hillary, Sanders, or Trump, to be particularly effective when it comes to the United States Congress. Again, the historic moment we are at. Hell, I don't expect Ted Cruz to be particularly effective.

[HereSince1628]

18. As you imagine him in the WH, how much congressional support for him do you see?

The R's seem to be running hard and fast away from him.

If he had broad support among congressional candidates I'd worry. As it is, I'm not worrying yet

I think my CT has potential as a book and a movie. Lewis already wrote yours...

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. As much as Jimmy Carter got from the Democratic congress

which was not much.

He literally spent four years in sub rosa fights that kept stalling his agenda.

Well multiply that by orders of magnitude. The current congress and Obama come to mind, in fact.

[HereSince1628]

21. I agree with that assessment.

I hate the attitudes Trump is cultivating. If he had broad support I'd be digging a bunker, but I don't think he has that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. This is why it has echoes

there are many reasons why the Rs (at least one faction) do not want a trade war.

That said, A trump presidency will be an issue, and I hear in places like Mexico he is being referred as a new Hitler, also in Germany, and believe or not Israel.

Outside of our borders people are shaking their heads, to put it politely. I mused the other day that governments will be dusting off plans on how to contain the US soon. I think they are already dusting them in fact.

Soon I will be spending ten days in Mexico City, mom is getting a very small surgery, but she is 86. I am looking forward to reading their press on this.

[Zorra]

20. I feel it also, and am putting my affairs in order to leave the country

whenever my intuition tells me it is time to go.

I live near the border, and have a place to live, and friends to hang with, where I'm going.

PM me if you need a coyote.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. I should probably should renew that old passport

and bring hubby along.

[Zorra]

25. Having a passport makes me feel safer. Renewed mine 3 yrs ago. $80!!! nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I mean my old Mexican Passport

Mexico recognizes double citizenship... these days. My US passport is ALWAYS up to date.

[Zorra]

35. ha! I should have figured that one out.

[Lodestar]

24. The GOP has been fanning the flames of fear and hate, creating a monster

that they now can't control and which threatens to destroy their own party.
Of course this rising constituency of authoritarians threatens more than the
political status quo. As you suggest there certainly are some predictable
precedents not just in Nazi Germany but all over the world in much more
recent acts of genocide and dictatorships.

For decades, the Republican Party has been winning over authoritarians by implicitly promising to stand firm against the tide of social change, and to be the party of force and power rather than the party of negotiation and compromise. But now it may be discovering that its strategy has worked too well — and threatens to tear the party apart.

http://www.vox.com/2016/3/1/11127424/trump-authoritarianism

There is a real danger in underestimating Trump, Cruz or any extremist candidate from either party. We must empower ourselves through both understanding the role that fear plays at the core of this trend and becoming aware of our need for active participation in creating change
that is inclusive and sensitive to these fears. People need to feel empowered and safe in various ways and given models of a future that they can imagine themselves in, as well as actions they can take to get there. Right now there is no vision of or action leading to the future, and the apparent chaos that precedes big changes is too scary for many to endure as a means to that end even if they had a vision. If we only respond to their fear with fear ourselves (of them) it solves nothing and infact inflames. We need to approach this differently by changing the way we perceive and respond to fear itself. In FDR's words - "The Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself”

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. First you need to understand what is happening

then you can empower yourself,

And I agree by the way, but I do not think it is JUST the GOP, even if they have the super lion share of this. Our side has been playing the fear game with another card. IF we do not elect (insert milquetoast candidate here), the other side wins.

It is not vote for us becuase we are going to have a positive vision of the country, It is be afraid. This is one reason I became a refuse to state years ago.

[randys1]

28. Per my theory Trump is doing this to get Hillary elected, and even if he is,

he is sowing hatred and so on that he could not control if he wanted to.

We know, have known, a good 3rd of this nation is rabidly racist and potentially violent, Trump has proven this for us, now what do we do with that information?

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. And that theory is shut down by this little fact

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_presidential_campaign,_2000

And I learned today that his first bid was in 1988

http://onpolitics.usatoday.com/2015/06/15/donald-trump-president-campaign/

[randys1]

32. I dont know how any of that refutes the fact that he and Bill met (this was reported on)

and the rest followed.

I am not the only one who wonders about this, though I was the first.

Rachel and others are now wondering.

That he has run before doesnt mean he and Bill didnt hatch this plan.

Maybe they did, maybe they didnt.

I do know Trump could not be prez for 3 days, he would not be able to do the work, he would quit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. I suspect that conversation was not about him running

to be honest. I think Bill was trying to prevent the run, to be honest. And we will never, ever, know... unless either of these two ahem tells this to an enterprising reporter, or writes it in a memoir.

[Lodestar]

33. Those labels...like 'racist'....don't help anything and is in fact the same

thing they are doing....blaming it on the faceless 'other'. It makes us blind.
The core issue beneath all these labels is fear and insecurity. That's where we need to focus. That is
the human emotion that we can all identify with and that connects our experiences.
Seeing each other as human requires compassion which is not a weakness but a
strength.

[randys1]

36. It is BECAUSE we havent labeled the racists, racists, that we have this problem

Time to stand up for real, I know when I do I am threatened by rightwingers (not here) but I have no choice, I have to call it as I see it.

[Lodestar]

37. Well in that sense I think you may find you have more in common with them

than you're willing to see.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. After the race baiting we have seen here

and some of it I have been subjected to it myself, on this site, it is kind ironic. By the way, those have not been micro aggressions either.

I agree, naming names, but we need to admit that the problem is not just limited to the other, in this case republicans. And trust me, some of my lovely Rs are well... quite open about it in the right crowd. So are some Dems. It is structural.

And that is also the conversation we refuse to have. We are where we are because partly of that. And I know I am risking annoying some folks over this post, So be it.

[monicaangela]

29. Excellent post nadinbrzezinski!

I have read somewhere that Donald Trump keeps a copy of Mein Kampf on the nightstand beside his bed. It appears he has learned a lot from studying it. Thanks for this post, I truly hope it is read by every member of DU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Yup

http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-ex-wife-once-said-he-kept-a-book-of-hitlers-speeches-by-his-bed-2015-8

I should get the same book, as professional interest mostly.

Because his speech sequence and all that reminds me a lot of those speeches.

[monicaangela]

39. I have the book

You should get it and read it. I believe every person who takes an interest in politics should read it.

You can read it free online here: http://www.archive.org/stream/meinkampf035176mbp/meinkampf035176mbp_djvu.txt

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. I have read Mein Kampf

I mean the speeches themselves, this is an annotated version, including media and people's reaction, the one that he is rumored to have.

BTW, reading mein kamp was ahem. painful

[monicaangela]

41. You can say that again.

I don't believe I could stand to read it again, the annotated copy may be more informative, but I don't believe I need more information than I already have.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Try reading Trump's launch speech

word salad... and after reading it a few times alarm bells started to go off.

It took me a week of listening to stump speeches (courtesy of our ever independent media) to get it.

[monicaangela]

44. Patterned after something you would expect from an Authoritarian type

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Ding, ding, ding

[xfundy]

43. Excellent OP.

Very good read. Thanks.

[UglyGreed]

46. K/R

[kentuck]

47. The $64,000 Answer

At the last Republican, cod-slinging debate, the candidates were asked if they would support Donald J. Trump if he were the nominee? Without reservation, they all said "yes".

After all their comments about how disgusting, how incompetent, how vulgar, how dangerous he would be as the President, they still could not bring themselves to say "no, they could not vote for him".

Is there even a shred of doubt that if these candidates were living in Germany in the 1930's, they might have disagreed with the ideas of der Fuhrer, but they would support him anyway if the people voted for him? Would even one of them have had the courage to not support Adolf Hitler?

I think they have put the question on the table.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Well part of it is that they have rules like the DNC has

so you cannot say openly NO without getting yourself into some real hot water, publicly.

Watch the roiling waters right under the surface. And if one wing decides to try to go for a brokered convention even after Trump secures the dang nomination, watch that split err, divorce, be rather ugly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Trump makes this even more relevant now

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027660330