That attack on the protester

[malaise]

Notice that the police did not stop it

[Dont call me Shirley]

1. They must be bigots too.

[malaise]

2. They grabbed the poor victim

on the ground - no one grabbed the attacker

[Dont call me Shirley]

8. That was their racist giveaway.

[Hortensis]

44. Many cops are authoritarians who cannot

be trusted not to knee-jerk protect the "authority" when situations arise. There are literally many thousands of stories like this out there, and no one should imagine being white would protect one from becoming the subject of another.

[Cleita]

28. Of course they were bigots. They should have arrested the elbow guy right there. eom

[Dont call me Shirley]

60. In perfect motion as bigots, they throw the victim to the ground and force handcuffs on him.

[safeinOhio]

3. Wrong

Paint job.
America

[Albertoo]

4. To be fair, the protester was not an innocent victim

Notice that what triggered the spectator punch was the protester waving F U gestures to the crowd. The spectator was clearly wrong, but the protester wasn't very wise. I can see why the police in crowd control mode would focus on evacuating the protester.

[nolabear]

5. According to his friend that FU was directed toward Donald who was insulting him.

While they were being escorted out, Donald was yelling "Go home! Go home to your mother!" The man who got punched had lost his mother fairly recently and reacted with a FU toward Donald. Not that anyone knew that then.

BUT, he was an innocent victim. There is a line. He did not cross it. Cowboy John did.

[Albertoo]

6. OK, so it's a bad chain of events

I can see why Trump's mother joke could cause the protester to make a F U gesture
I can see why a spectator at a heated political rally could react to a F U gesture

[G_j]

7. you can see why a hand gesture resulted in an assault

Last edited Thu Mar 10, 2016, 10:36 PM - Edit history (1)

sure, I can too, given the lynch mob mentality being nurtured at these rallies.

[Albertoo]

11. Crowds are excitable

Tickling tigers and provoking crowds are not activities which are danger free
(even if in this case, I understand the FU gesture was accidentally triggered)

[G_j]

12. assault is assault, a crime

it's that simple

[Albertoo]

14. That is academic

Go among people demonstrating and start chanting the opposite of what they are asking.
See how it goes.

[bhikkhu]

22. Simple cause and effect, yes

but assault is still a crime, while flipping someone off is not. Usually by middle school individuals are well enough aware of that and practice self control.

[OneGrassRoot]

88. word n/t

[SusanaMontana41]

76. So is inciting a riot.

From the U.S. Supreme Court case Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969)

"Freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation

except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite

or produce such action. Whitney v. California, 274 U. S. 357, overruled.


[link:https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/395/444/

[G_j]

77. Yes I suppose you could say Trump does

attempt to incite riots..

[SusanaMontana41]

84. "I suppose"?

How bad does it have to get?

Another Gabby Giffords tragedy? Another Kent State? Another long hot summer? God forbid, another assassination? Trumpf has been ramping up to something since he divulged Sen. Lindsey Graham's private phone number during one of his early rallies.

He's the predictable result of years of eating at the trough of right-wing hate. But no longer is he just a problem for the GOP. Like it or not, he's the nation's problem now, too.
Every bleepin' time he opens his mouth he endangers all of us.

I'm so glad the Breitbart reporter filed charges. May she be the first of a deluge.

[link:http://m.nydailynews.com/news/politics/donald-trump-rally-st-louis-features-protests-article-1.2561617

[G_j]

85. It was sarcasm. nt

[SusanaMontana41]

86. Jeebus H.

Don't know how I missed your beautiful Bernie avatar.

D-UH.

Forgive me, G_j, for I did not know what I was doing.

[G_j]

87. no problem

The person I was responding to seemed to be suggesting the victim of the assault could have been inciting a riot. I just read today that the NC police are considering charging Trump himself with inciting violence.

[SusanaMontana41]

89. They should.

The U.S. Supreme Court settled this in Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969):

"Freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."

There it is. A two-pronged test. Trumpf meets that test at every rally.

What are the country and law enforcement waiting for? A murder?


[link:https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/395/444/

[Person 2713]

40. Crowds are excitable. Sounds like something Trump would shrug and say

Condoning or apathy towards violence
Flipping a finger back at the protestor understandable
Punching then later saying next time we may have to kill
no the victim should not have this coming for a FU

Reminds me of the reply Trump gave regarding his previous statement on Tiananmen Square in the debate

[nolabear]

9. So if someone insults you, you punch them?

[Albertoo]

10. I wouldn't walk at a Nazi party rally and make FU gestures

because I would guess what could happen

[Kingofalldems]

15. I think I get where you are coming from.

It was the victim's fault.

[Albertoo]

18. Are victims always innocent?

If a guy in a Nazi uniform enters a meeting of the families of survivors of Auschwitz and gets beaten up, would you say the victim had no role in what happened to him?

Anyway, I'm not here to defend Trump and I took note of the info I was given after my initial post that the FU gesture was provoked by the taunt which fell on a sensitive spot.

Now, let's leave this issue and move on.

[Kingofalldems]

23. You brought it up.

[Albertoo]

24. See post #18

[rockfordfile]

38. The un-American republican pos is arrested.

There's no excuse for the right wing coward to attack the protester.

[Stinky The Clown]

13. I'll bet you also argue that the woman was raped because her clothes were too sexy

[Albertoo]

16. Two for the price of one: an ad hominem + a non sequitur

It's a woman, any person's, prerogative to go about unmolested regardless of their clothes.

It's quite a different matter to step in a crowd of people of a different opinion than yours and gesture at them. Try making FU gestures during a religious service, and see if you'll be spared a scuffle.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. Flipping people off may not be smart, but it is NOT illegal. Punching people IS illegal

Except maybe in a cave.

[Albertoo]

19. Theory vs practice. Crowds are excitable.

Anyway, end of discussion, I'm not here to defend the guy who gave the punch.

[Stinky The Clown]

20. You could have fooled me.

[Albertoo]

21. Life is like a box of chocolates

[justiceischeap]

39. Your theory about flipping the bird put the victim at fault

makes me want to say your opinion in this matter makes me want to pop you in the mouth. Now will you argue if I were to pop you in the mouth that you asked for it because we are discussing politics, which can get heated. I mean, I guess we could all see that your ignorance deserves a good punch, right?

[Albertoo]

47. Are you trying to scare me?

[leftynyc]

51. No - the poster is

trying to show how ridiculous it is to blame for victim for the violence. It is absolutely no different than some pig saying a woman shouldn't have been wearing tight clothing - after all, HE considers it provocative. Only animals can't control themselves. I hope the cowboy has the book thrown at him (especially after saying next time he would kill him - this was before he realized he was on video and got arrested).

[justiceischeap]

58. Glad *someone* got it. SMH. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

50. You pretty much are, though. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. What does 'theory vs practice' mean?

Are you saying that 'practice' alters whether a victim is 'innocent' or not? If you leave your front door open while you're round the back of the house, and someone runs in and steals something, you might say that "wasn't very wise" of you, but it doesn't stop you being an innocent victim. Does 'practice', ie what happens, somehow make the victim guilty of something, to you?

Interesting that you call the sheriff's people leaping on top of the victim "evacuating the protester". And wrong, of course.

[Person 2713]

41. Religious people always punch out people yep

And then say they may kill them if they return to the service again

[Stinky The Clown]

25. The sheriff disagrees with you, Hoss.

"No one should be subjected to such a cowardly, unprovoked act as that committed by McGraw," said Sheriff Butler. "Regardless of political affiliation, speech, race, national origin, color, gender, bad reputation, prior acts, or political demonstration, no other citizen has the right to assault another person or to act in such a way as this defendant did. I hope that the courts will handle this matter with the appropriate severity for McGraw's severe and gross violation of this victim's rights."

http://abc11.com/politics/man-charged-after-punching-trump-protester-/1240199/

Your move.

[spanone]

27. yep. indefensible.

[HuckleB]

29. Exactly.

We teach our kids that there is no excuse for such behavior. How is it that so many adults fail to understand this basic tenet?

[Albertoo]

31. See post #19

Now, why don't you give it a rest?

[Stinky The Clown]

34. A rest?

You kidding? What you said is so morally bankrupt as to cause me not to let up at all. See post #4.

[Albertoo]

35. I already amended #4 in light of precision brought by #5

Now, will you climb down from your high horse?

[Stinky The Clown]

37. I think you were speaking to me and not yourself. My horse only looks high because you're . . . .

. . . . down in that hole you dug yourself into.

Reread this thread. Maybe, just maybe, you can mull over what people are saying to you. A little introspection can be a good thing when your ass overloads your mouth.

[Albertoo]

45. What a classy answer from a self-appointed moral purity vigilante

[Stinky The Clown]

48. So sayeth the victim blamer as he defends the indefensible.

[Albertoo]

49. Whatever, dude, you're the better guy

Your opinions are pure and you are a knight in shiny armor.
I amended my comment #4 based on better input #5. But youre unwavering in perfection.
Keep fighting any hint of moral impurity like Ted Cruz would. Now, leave me alone, will you?

[Stinky The Clown]

52. Stop talking to me and I will.

In this case, you were wrong and I was right.

Period.

Yammering on in your own defense of the indefensible just digs that hole deeper and makes the white horse I am on seem taller.

Dude.

[Albertoo]

61. You like shouting matches, don't you?

Dude

[Stinky The Clown]

64. And you can't let shit rest, can you?

Keep it up, victim shamer.

[Albertoo]

65. Just following your lead

strawman maker

[Stinky The Clown]

66. Not a straw man. You clearly blamed the victim.

But you keep trying. I'm here all week. Be sure to tip your waitress.

Unless you want to blame her because the guy in the kitchen spit in your pancakes.

[Albertoo]

67. I've been a waiter, I always tip

And making gestures at a political rally isn't smart
All I'm sayin'

[Stinky The Clown]

68. No, you said (and edited when you got smacked) that the victim was culpable

I'm glad you tip.

[Albertoo]

69. I haven't edited one single post on this thread, the smacks are in your head

[Stinky The Clown]

70. .

[Albertoo]

71. No, Sir, no, the hole is yours

There have been quite a few threads which expressed the same point I was making in my post #4 in this present thread, i.e., that it is a very debatable attitude to go and disrupt political rallies of opposing parties:

Do even the most odious among us, including incipient fascists, Trump, have a right to free speech
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027676621

I don't like protesters stopping Bernie or Hillary or Trump or Cruz!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027676179

I understand it is not your point of view, but I find it rather arrogant of you to pretend your point of view is hallowed, and that the contrary point of view is a hole of shame.

PS: the point of view I defend, i.e., that it is a very debatable attitude to go and disrupt political rallies of opposing parties, is what Voltaire meant and which is often reported in the apocryphal quote: I disagree with your opinion, but will fight for your right to express it.

Back to my post #4 that you have been harassing me continuously about for one day now, I was expressing the same thing, albeit far less eloquently than Voltaire. While it is indeed regrettable that the protester got punched -and I said so from the get-go-, there is also a strong case to be made against disrupting the political rallies of opponents in a democracy.

Now, wlll you please leave me alone?

[Stinky The Clown]

72. No

And "harassment"? Heh!

You can end this any time. Just don't answer me.

[Albertoo]

73. You started it

[Stinky The Clown]

75. No, actually, you did. Victim shamer/blamer.

Not cool.

Look at it this way. We're building up your post count. See how nice I am to you?

[Albertoo]

78. See post 72 and stop your slander

[Stinky The Clown]

79. And another post in your tally

You're welcome.

[Albertoo]

80. No wonder you reached 50,000 posts+

[Stinky The Clown]

81. Yeah, and all in 12 short years.

You're on a tear compared to that, Hoss.

[Albertoo]

82. .

[Stinky The Clown]

83. (00)

[malaise]

74. ROFL

[malaise]

43. No moves left

[Scootaloo]

26. Seriously?

No, what triggered the punch was that the twenty gallons of pigshit in a ten-gallon hat thought he had a right to punch another man in the face.

[Albertoo]

32. Post #19: real life vs aetheral principle

I got corrected on the fact the FU gesture had been a reflex action to painful taunt,
but stop harping on it: a FU gesture against a crowd can not end well.
Now can you all stop punching me over a simple remark?

[Nevernose]

30. You're right in that mobs are scary and stupid

And you're right that blame can be apportioned all around. FU in front of that crowd was unwise.

However: the target of a mob of thousands cannot be expected to act more rationally than members of the mob. His fight-or-flight must have been at light speed compared to the sucker-puncher.

[Albertoo]

33. Agreed. And anyway, someone explained why the FU gesture was a reflex

Now let's all move on to something else. We flogged that horse to death already.

[TeamPooka]

36. Four cops bring him to the ground is "evacuating"? Interesting technique. nt

[malaise]

42. Amazing indeed

and not one approaches the attacker

[TeamPooka]

59. Southern Justice. nt

[Albertoo]

46. Happens in lots of crowd control situations, whatever the sides are

[treestar]

54. yes he was as that gesture is not enough

to justify any physical assault.

[IsItJustMe]

62. Blame the victim.

As far as I can understand the law, no one has the right to hit you unless they are defending themselves. I seriously think you either do not understand the law, or have a twisted view of when force should or can be applied. Neither one of these is a good thing.

[Albertoo]

63. Read the thread

[cwydro]

53. He has been arrested and charged with assault.

I was glad to hear that today.

[HughBeaumont]

55. The Legal Gang are like online "independents" and "apoliticals" . . .

. . . take a picture of the instance they ever give Republicans even a hard time, because that's not going to happen often.

[malaise]

56. +1,000