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[left-of-center2012]

This message was self-deleted by its author (left-of-center2012) on Wed Mar 30, 2016, 11:34 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Trust Buster]

1. It was an action led by our allies to prevent an ongoing atrocity. It was just.

[virtualobserver]

2. a misguided action....not the first time for Hillary

[Trust Buster]

3. In your opinion. I support our allies action in that case as well as our support.

[virtualobserver]

4. a failed state is not an achievement

[Trust Buster]

5. Stopping Gaddafi's rampage that was slaughtering thousands was a just action.

It was led by Britain, France, Egypt and the Arab League. I have no problem with it.

[virtualobserver]

6. I'm sure it is better now with parts of the country ruled by ISIS

[Trust Buster]

8. Terrorist's are everywhere. Gaddafi isn't.

[Kelvin Mace]

32. Right, so now instead of one dictator

who controlled a whole country, we now have a country fractured into multiple competing groups, all breeding terrorists are varying agendas.

For a "pragmatic" candidate, HRC sucks at pragmatism.

[Roland99]

89. Just like what happened in Iraq!!

[840high]

100. It would be better if he was around.

[TheSarcastinator]

106. Why is Team Shillary incapable of learning from mistakes?

Stop doubling down on failed policies: it makes you look foolish, not strong.

[MisterFred]

82. That's hindsight.

I'm a Sanders supporter, and I recognize he's a bit better than me at judging foreign policy. But I thought stopping Gaddafi after the Civil War started was a good thing to do, and I still do.

And yes, Libya now is probably better than letting Gaddafi win the Civil War in bloody fashion.

Now if it were to come out that we did something to encourage the Libyan Civil War... well that would be pretty horrific. But so far as I know, that's not the case.

[virtualobserver]

84. Some people have foresight......regime change without the total commitment.....

to rebuild the country always fails.....the last time that we had that was at the end of WWII.

The failed states are stacking up in that region and it is a recipe for disaster.

[MisterFred]

87. Right.

And I could go on and on about how we messed up Iraq and Afghanistan before and after deciding to invade. But we didn't start the Libyan Civil War, to my knowledge. Nor did our allies. In fact, we were buddying up with Libya until the shooting started. Libya isn't quite the same situation.

[polly7]

12. A fucking lie. Proven as one. Led by the liars who paid Qaddafi opponents and

Al Qaeda terrorists to 'come up with the numbers' to take to the UN for the no-fly-zone that enabled those same butchers to hang Qaddafi loyalists in the streets, burn alive the Africans let in to work for decades but labeled mercenaries (wrongly) in MSM propaganda reporting.

That Qaddafi was on a 'rampage' to slaughter was every bit as much of a lie as the 'troops using Viagra!' lie Clinton still touted even after human rights observers and the U.S. investigation categorically stated - false. But those paid butchers did rape, mutilate and torture many, many women - Qaddafi supporters and African women and children alike. HRW begged attention for this - what did NATO do to stop it? Not one fucking thing.

Support this horror all you like, but stop lying about it.

[yourpaljoey]

85. excellent summary

[oberliner]

99. Gaddafi Tells Rebel City, Benghazi, ‘We Will Show No Mercy’

TRIPOLI, March 17 (Reuters) - Muammar Gaddafi told Libyan rebels on Thursday his armed forces were coming to their capital Benghazi tonight and would not show any mercy to fighters who resisted them.

In a radio address, he told Benghazi residents that soldiers would search every house in the city and people who had no arms had no reason to fear.

“It’s over ... We are coming tonight,” he said. “You will come out from inside. Prepare yourselves from tonight. We will find you in your closets.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/17/gaddafi-benghazi-libya-news_n_837245.html

[marmar]

20. Complete and total bullshit.

[snooper2]

23. It takes dictators to keep the fundies in line- Check Saudi Arabia-

We could just let them kill each other but they won't stay inside their imaginary borders so that becomes the problem

[AgerolanAmerican]

83. Usually this long after a war

people have learned what the war propaganda that dragged us into it was

seems you drank the warhawk Kool-Aid and never came back

[FairWinds]

105. Led by "Our Allies"?

Gee, I never heard that until the whole thing went south.

That phrase is just a way for YOU and Hillary to dodge accountability.

Refusing to admit mistakes, especially disastrous foreign policy ones,

disqualifies her from any position of public trust.

(And BTW, the weapons that were "freed up" in Libya may be the worst of it. They have would up
all over northern Africa -chaos following in their wake- not to mention Syria, shipped there by he USG!!)

Veterans For Peace (speaking for myself only)

Lincoln, your avatar, would not have approved either!!

[Kelvin Mace]

27. You support your allies when they are right

not when they are wrong.

[lewebley3]

104. Hillary was right !

[malaise]

7. How do you compare the atrocities

on all sides?

[polly7]

9. It was a LIE, western funded and generated using western trained liars, butchers and

terrorists to bring it about.

Western boots were on the ground even before the lying -no-fly-zone.

Libya was a prosperous nation whose citizens were further ahead in terms of human rights, social programs and quality of life using their own resources than anyone else in the area. We all know what happens to those kind of nations. It was on PNAC's hit list, 7 countries in 5 years - remember? Clinton was very well aware of PNAC, she used Blumenthal - who was trying for investment in a destroyed Libya - against Obama's wishes - it's all coming out in those private emails.

You should read more.

[CoffeeCat]

44. It's important to remember that Robert Kagan, the founder of PNAC and the neocon movement

was one of Hillary's Middle East advisers while she was Secretary of State.

Those who position Clinton's movements on Libya as some kind of humanitarian effort to rid Libya of a horrible dictator--are misguided, at best.

Hillary was being advised by the founder of the neocon movement. Their plan is to destabilize these countries. As polly7 noted, they outlined these targeted countries many years ago. Iraq, Iran, Libya and Syria are on that list.

They remove leaders, destabilize--then take over and rebuild with their corporate friends making untold amounts of cash.

The neocons are horrifying. Even Biden knows what Hillary Clinton is.

If she becomes President, say hello to all of the neocon dreams coming true. Iran is next. It's just disgusting.

[polly7]

46. Thank you, CoffeeCat. +1000. nt.

[840high]

101. .+1

[4139]

13. Wrong the 'mass killings and rapes of civilians' by Libyan troop was a lie!

The mass killing me and rapes only started after Libya was 'liberated'.

[polly7]

14. You are right.

But those who don't care about all those destroyed with this lying atrocity will ignore that horrible suffering.

Makes me sick.

[leveymg]

25. It was a serial regime change operation planned and funded years in advance

In early 2011, the CIA and State saw an opportunity across the MENA region to ignite a Sunni-based uprising.Along with France, Italy, the UK, and in coordination with Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the Gulf States, exile groups were mobilized, propaganda assets utilized, and opposition factions armed and directed. Nothing spontaneous or humanitarian about it. Just another day at the Office.

[polly7]

36. +1,000,000. nt.

[stupidicus]

72. a demonstrated falsehood that you'll no doubt cling to like a Pee Partier

https://www.google.com/search?q=libya+lies&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 does their gun and bible

[bhikkhu]

10. Well known, and I did and do agree with her

Perhaps there were many equally bad paths forward, I still think we chose the best one available, and doing nothing would have been worse.

[tk2kewl]

43. "doing nothing would have been worse"

because?

[Maedhros]

107. When has the United States EVER intervened in the Middle East/North Africa

and had a positive outcome?

I'm thinking 1942 would be the last time.

[thereismore]

11. She will forever remain a stain on your legacy, Mr. President. Is this who you are supporting today?

So disappointed.

[leftynyc]

47. And if they hadn't gone in

and khaddafy had continued to butcher his people, you would have whined about THAT being her legacy. Frankly, I'm more curious why the only two choices in Muslim countries seem to be either brutal dictator or religious fanatics. Facing the same choice in Syria.

[polly7]

51. Qaddafi butchering his people was a lie, the numbers given to the UN by western trained

opponents of Qaddafi - lies. Read up.

The west had/has no business destabilizing and destroying either Libya or Syria ......... or any other country it has since WW11.

It is a choice, alright - a disgusting one.

[jeff47]

79. Yes, it's much better now that ISIS is butchering people in Libya instead.

[leftynyc]

81. At least we can agree

those seem to be the only two choices available for Muslim countries - brutal dictatorships killing their people or religious fanatics killing their people. Perhaps we should just step back and let them kill each other. I'm fine with that. Are you?

[jeff47]

91. Nope, there's other options.

In fact, there's quite peaceful, non-theocratic, non-dictatorship Muslim countries.

They tend to form when we stop barging in and creating dictatorships or theocracies.

[leftynyc]

103. Oh do feel free

to educate me on those peaceful Muslim countries where women are free to wear, do, marry and say whatever they please.

[merrily]

52. Yes, Hillary AND Lil Debbie, both.

[Betty Karlson]

15. It's all Clinton has for foreign policy experience: war war war.

One trick pony does as one-trick pony wants.

[Trust Buster]

16. I support Hillary's foreign policy goals.

[polly7]

17. Good for you.

Millions are suffering because of those imperialist 'goals' - thousands/hundreds of thousands of children have been killed, mutilated, orphaned, tortured, made refugees, had limbs blown off finding little cluster bomb toys, some drown at sea trying to escape the horror she left behind. I'm not sure how anyone could support that - but you seem proud - that's really something.

Much of Romania's population protested against the fracking she wanted to introduce into their country - she personally visited to persuade Romanian leaders to let it go ahead. She wants the same for much of Europe. That's quite a goal to admire.

[Trust Buster]

18. What drama. You are entitled to your opinion but not your own set of facts.....LOL

[polly7]

19. I don't see suffering as 'drama'. That's just sick. And, those are the FACTS. nt.

[Trust Buster]

22. I like President Obama's foreign policy. If the world were only as simplistic as you think it is.

[think]

26. John Kerry is an outstanding Secretary of State. Thank goodness he replaced Hillary the hawk...

[Trust Buster]

29. He's following the President's policy just as Hillary did. You're trying to be cute by half.

[Herman4747]

62. Yeah, that was most fortunate. n/t

[TryLogic]

96. Yes, thank goodness he replaced Hillary the hawk.

[polly7]

30. 'Simplistic' is believing any country has the right to rape and pillage another

sovereign nation simply because it's controlling its own resources and trying to make the rest of Africa independent of the predatory IMF and not enable AFRICOM its 'goals' for the rest of Africa.

Foreign policy that destroys the lives of millions isn't really admirable, for me. I don't care who does it.

[Trust Buster]

33. If only President Obama were as smart as you.

[polly7]

34. If only you had a tiny bit of empathy. nt.

[Trust Buster]

35. You make foreign sound so simple. It never is. Complaining isn't a solution.

[polly7]

39. You have no business deciding on anything 'foreign', not sure why all the

self-entitlement in thinking you should have a say in the lives of millions of others. Dirty coups, regime-change, lying wars for profit - all against foreigners - so no big deal, right? I'll complain about it all I like. If we all convince our gov'ts to stop this horror and lying foreign policy the world just 'might' survive.

[Trust Buster]

53. And you're an isolationist. Both extreme and unrealistic.

[polly7]

60. No, I'm a humanist who doesn't believe the west has a right to the resources of

other nations, the right to force them into a world bank system that pushes brutal austerity when they once lived healthy, prosperous lives using their own resources, sanctions as economic terrorism that punishes citizens for leaders who don't acquiesce to the 'principles' of those hypocrites who believe the world belongs to them, and on and on and on. Latin America was/is considered and labeled the U.S.'s 'farm' - social progress fought and died for is being lost with yet more right-wing funded dirty coups and elections - those corporations the 1% controls want their farm back. That you applaud this type of foreign policy might let you sleep well at night - it ends the lives of millions of others. Good for you.

[Trust Buster]

65. Do you really think a presidential administration controls all those issues you listed ?

[polly7]

69. I really think 'gov'ts' control these decisions. Did you miss that??

Why the lies?

[Ned_Devine]

58. Please stop engaging this person

[polly7]

66. I don't like that lies about what and who cause human suffering around the world go unchallenged. nt

[Ned_Devine]

73. I get it and I'm on your side. But you're not changing this person's mind

[polly7]

75. Thanks. You're right .... this person has no empathy, period. It's pointless, but I still

don't think the lies should be allowed to stand.

I think you're great, Ned-Devine.

[Ned_Devine]

78. You've made great points and a solid argument

...and in almost any other circumstance, your opposition would have admitted defeat. There is a different blind faith "even when they're wrong they're right" mentality going on here on this site lately. I've been here since 2004 and I don't ever remember it being like this. I thought we were all progressive liberals and that's what made this the democratic "Underground". It's disappointing that I have to resort to putting people on full ignore rather than get completely annoyed by arguments with no substance, but such is life.

[Trust Buster]

67. Please stop trying to censor the communications of others. Speak for yourself.

[polly7]

70. That poster wasn't trying to censor me, and I can speak for myself, thanks. nt.

[Ned_Devine]

74. I love yogurt with granola. How about you?

[CoffeeCat]

49. It's estimated that 30,000 Libyan refugees are pouring into Europe

as this huge number of people have been displaced and are now homeless, starving and their lives have been destroyed.

We have destroyed a nation. It's a failed state without a government.

But that's the neocon goal. They destroy these nations and leave them without any functioning society or government--then they arrive to pilfer the oil--and then rebuild, which will make trillions for their friends in the corporate world.

It's a sick way for an empire to gain control of countries and plunder those countries and take them over.

And the neocons will ALWAYS have a justification for ANY country on their target list. They just had to remove Saddam because he had weapons of mass destruction and was planning on making a nuclear bomb. All lies! The neocons always make a compelling case for doing what they're doing. They are lying sociopaths.

And the problem is that there are nerdewells out there who parrot their talking points and believe this slop. How many right-wing hacks did we rail against during the Iraq War? How many times did we laugh at Cheney and Bush for saying that the people in Iraq "hate us for our freedom" and that we were in Iraq to bring "peace and freedom" to the Iraqi people.

It was a shitstorm of lies then. It's a shitstorm of lies now.

[libtodeath]

42. Including Iraq?

[Trust Buster]

54. Bush and Cheney were in power when Iraq was invaded.

[libtodeath]

68. So,maybe she should have learned something.

[polly7]

71. She learned a lot, imho. nt.

[libtodeath]

80. BINGO!

[A Simple Game]

94. I doubt you or very many at all know her true goals for the Middle East and Northern Africa. n/t

[marmar]

21. I'm a Bernie supporter, and I will be voting for Hillary if she's the nominee, but.....

Last edited Wed Mar 30, 2016, 12:56 PM - Edit history (1)

.... I swear, when I read stuff like this, I really want to vote for Jill Stein.

[Trust Buster]

24. You're just not tolerant of differing opinions. I think President Obama's foreign policy is

greatly superior to the Right wing neocon approach.

[marmar]

28. No, I'm not tolerant of foolish militarism.....

..... no matter if Democrats are initiating it. Hawkishness is hawkishness.

[Trust Buster]

31. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I support the President's foreign policy.

[think]

37. GOP neocon Robert Kagan, co-founder of PNAC was an adviser for SoS Clinton & he's endorsed her.

Hillary also hired Kagan's wife:

Robert Kagan: Republican, Neocon, PNAC co-founder endorses Clinton:

The connection between Hillary and the extreme right Republican Neocons became much clearer today when Robert Kagan, a co-founder and co-author of “The Project for the New American Century, endorsed Hillary Clinton for President.

I would be tempted to call his endorsement a dirty trick designed to drive Democrats away from HRC, but the closeness between them has gone on for many years. Therefore, I think this is just a neocon effort to co-opt the Democratic party. I’m sure they believe it would be better for their desires if they own both parties, not just the Republicans.

I believe this should set off extreme alarms for anyone who believes it is important to have more than one party, more than one ideology, in charge of our government. This alarm is, to me, a warning that we may be setting a one party-ideology in concrete to rule us even more stringently than a monarchy. I find it terrifying.

We need to remember that Robert Kagan’s wife is Victoria Nuland. Nuland had been a foreign policy adviser to VP Dick Cheney. When Obama was elected and named Clinton as Secretary of State, HRC brought Victoria Nuland into the State Department. Originally serving as an information official conducting press sessions for State, Nuland soon transitioned to Assistant Secretary of State for Eurasian Affairs. From this post, Nuland planned, orchestrated, and directed the disastrous coup in Ukraine.

Source:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2/25/1491609/-Robert-Kagan-Republican-Neocon-PNAC-co-founder-endorses-Clinton

[Trust Buster]

38. President Obama has been the Commander in Chief.

[think]

45. So the title of Secretary of State means nothing and Obama told Hillary to hire Kagan's wife?

Hillary was just some sort of rubber stamp?

[Trust Buster]

50. It's shameful that you treat President Obama as a puppet. Offensive actually.

[think]

55. Where did I say anything of the sort? I'm pointing out that Hillary hired neocons. Not sure what

you're babbling about...

[CoffeeCat]

56. There is absolutely NO justification

for any Democrat to be justifying the neocon war plan.

Please remember that Democrats used to be unified in fighting against the neocons. DU was our little refuge, where we could intelligently discuss how dastardly and evil they were. We knew all of their names--Rumsfeld, Kagan, Wolfowitz, Bolton, Armitage and many others.

We knew that they were lying us into war. We knew their claims that Saddam had WMD, were dubious.

No longer. Things have changed in the Democratic party. Now Hillary is furthering the neocon agenda. With her actions in Libya and her also wanted to arm the Syrian rebels and create a no-fly zone over Syria. Those are neocon actions.

Now, Robert Kagan--the founder of the neocon movement--has endorsed Hillary for President. He served as one of her foreign-policy advisers while she was Secretary of State.

There is no excuse for this. No Democrat should accept that the neocon doctrine has slithered its way into our party.

It's unconscionable.

[desmiller]

40. Qaddafi's death might have something to do with this:

http://www.anonews.co/gaddafi-warned-isis/

[polly7]

41. Yes, it does make you wonder. nt.

[merrily]

57. I'm voting for the guy who correctly predicted invading Iraq would de-stablize the entire ME.

Not for the gal who helped sell the Iraq invasion to Americans, who laughs at assassinating Gaddafi, who laughs at her Iraq war vote, who calls Iraq a business opportunity, who laughs at the prospect of nuking Iran, etc.

Don't anyone bother asking me for links. Each comment in this post is supportable by a video on youtube and they have all already been posted on this board many times.

[think]

59. ^ THIS ^

[Herman4747]

61. I tell you, people, it's the Kissinger influence...

Bill Clinton, while campaigning for his wife in New Hampshire, told a crowd of her supporters, "Henry Kissinger, of all people, said she ran the State Department better and got more out of the personnel at the State Department than any secretary of state in decades http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/02/hillary-clinton-kissinger-vacation-dominican-republic-de-la-renta

[Fuddnik]

63. If he had just "donated" to the Clinton Protection Racket, er Foundation......

[yourpaljoey]

86. oooooo... sad but true

[Deuce]

64. It's all part of the playbook...???

“Where am I controversial? When it comes to the use of military power,” he said. “That is the source of the controversy. There’s a playbook in Washington that presidents are supposed to follow. It’s a playbook that comes out of the foreign-policy establishment. And the playbook prescribes responses to different events, and these responses tend to be militarized responses. Where America is directly threatened, the playbook works. But the playbook can also be a trap that can lead to bad decisions. In the midst of an international challenge like Syria, you get judged harshly if you don’t follow the playbook, even if there are good reasons why it does not apply.”


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2016_03/obamas_challenge_to_the_washin059906.php

[SammyWinstonJack]

76. Ugh.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

77. She was not qualified to be SOS in the first place.

Obama wanted to get her out of the senate, where as her primary challenger in the party, could have mad his life even worse (if that's at all imaginable).

[marble falls]

88. As a Bernie supporter, I think this is another bogus attempt to make a mountain out of less than ...

a mole hill. HRC was a very good SoS, and Bernie will make a better President.

[Paper Roses]

90. Sorry Mr. President. Lybia is worse now than before. You took bad advice.

I don't excuse the dictatorship of Qaddafi but as a result of our actions, Libya is worse off. Another complete mess by our government and the powers that be. Yes, the country has become a haven for ISIS. Obama's advisers need a lesson on common sense.

For shame.
The world has gone to hell!

[grasswire]

92. It's important to understand that Hillary was relying on BOGUS intel from Blumenthal..

....and her rogue foreign policy team. Blumenthal had been BANNED from advisory status by OBAMA himself. And Blumenthal was ginning up private business of his own in Libya. The same is true of Blumenthal's source -- former spook ginning up private business in Libya.

Hilary accepted the bogus intel and then pressured Obama to attack.

Libya (shit show Isis haven) is Hillary's fault.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

93. Well, there goes the "just following orders" excuse.

[rtracey]

95. Isolationism

I like that idea. Lets pull the US out of every base we occupy in this world in any sovereign nation and let those nations fight their own battles. I could give a rats ass if we have a base in western Germany, or South Korea, or Philippines.... I say bring all our troops home, and lets see how long it takes to have the world scream for the US to come back. Remember the final word comes from the Commander in Chief, not secs of Army, Navy State.....

People die in wars, nothing is ever going to change that fact. There will ALWAYS be some aspect of war....human nature, nothing will change that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

102. "People die in wars..." Seems a like a helluva good idea to not participate in the killing.

[PatrynXX]

97. Probably why Cheney seems to like her

although part of me really wanted to nail him to a wall circa Airwolf but like many long after he 'd mellowed out. there's just some people you don't take out. Imagine what would have happen if some idiot had taken out Stalin before Hitler X_X I'd be thinking everyone would be singing in Nazi

[lark]

98. Clinton's corporatism and militarism is the reason I support Bernie.

Well, there's also the fact that Bernie gets both of those right, he's anti-corporatism and isn't a shoot first guy either.