Study finds marijuana not "safer" than alcohol

[True Earthling]

4 decades long study published in the March 23 edition of peer-reviewed journal Clinical Psychological Science...

Heavy, persistent pot use linked to economic and social problems at midlife

https://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/publish/news/newsroom/10874

“Our study found that regular cannabis users experienced downward social mobility and more financial problems such as troubles with debt and cash flow than those who did not report such persistent use,” she said. “Regular long-term users also had more antisocial behaviors at work, such as stealing money or lying to get a job, and experienced more relationship problems, such as intimate partner violence and controlling abuse.”

The comprehensive study is important because it addresses an array of potentially confounding factors not included in past studies assessing cannabis’ long-term effects on users, and it raises awareness of the consequences that persistent cannabis use poses to families, communities and national social welfare systems.

Economic and social problems persisted in long-term, regular users of pot even after the authors accounted for other potential differences between regular cannabis users and other study participants, including socioeconomic problems in childhood, lower IQ, antisocial behavior and depression in adolescence, higher levels of impulsivity, lower motivation to achieve, criminal conviction of cannabis users, and abuse of alcohol and hard drugs.

“These findings did not arise because cannabis users were prosecuted and had a criminal record,” said Caspi, a psychologist with dual appointments at Duke University and the Institute of Psychiatry at King’s College London who is senior author of the study. “Even among cannabis users who were never convicted for a cannabis offense, we found that persistent and regular cannabis use was linked to economic and social problems.”

download study here (PDF):
http://cpx.sagepub.com/content/early/2016/03/16/2167702616630958.full.pdf?ijkey=PjD9gu0wSdxIDI9&keytype=finite

[killbotfactory]

1. That's funny. I had economic and social problems long before I tried marijuana. nt

[boobooday]

5. Right?

Some people are just born with those.

I guess the demon weed makes you think bad things about the capitalist rat race.

[killbotfactory]

66. I thought bad things about the capitalist rat race

shortly before trying weed.

strange world.

[brush]

205. Bet that study was funded by a repug think tank.

All those things mentioned can be found in any socio-economic group, including drinkers, non-drinkers, pot smokers, non-pot smokers, and on and on and on.

What bull sh_t.

Now excuse me while I light this up.

[bemildred]

2. Oh good, more hippie bashing. nt

[GliderGuider]

13. ^ That.

[bemildred]

17. And nothing but that.

Skelton in the LA Times was more candid, he said pot make "losers", like that's "science".

What he means is he resents other people's life-style choices, he knows how everybody else ought to be. Like him.

[21st Century Poet]

20. Are you sure it's hippy-bashing? It's a scientific and peer-reviewed study.

Why is it hippy-bashing? It's a scientific and peer-reviewed study.

Do you think that a lifetime of smoking marijuana really has no physical and psychological effects?

I am all for allowing people to do all the drugs they want and I have enjoyed the occasional joint myself but that will not stop me from acknowledging the fact that heavy and regular drug use, even that of marijuana, will create wastrels.

Have you ever seen a middle-aged man who has been smoking several joints a day since he was 17? They can be quite a sight, and usually a sad one. Dig into their personal lives and you often find it's sadder still. Don't let your political stand about drug use blind you to the physical, mental and social repercussions they can cause.

[bemildred]

26. Go ahead and acknowledge anything you want, it's an opinion, not science.

Science does not think we should all work our asses off all day. Science is fine with lazy people. Science is fine with people who lay around all day. If you don't like that, fine, but admit that's it's you that doesn't like it.

[21st Century Poet]

45. All medicines can have side effects.

The fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (published in 2013), which is considered the Bible for psychologists and psychiatrists in the US, has Cannabis Use Disorders and Cannabis Withdrawal Disorders in its list.

The simple truth is that anything ingested into the body can possibly (not always) cause harm. People who are allergic to nuts can possibly be killed by something which is harmless to most other people, for example.

All medicines can have potential side effects. Saying that marijuana has medicinal properties but at the same time denying that it can have any bad side-effects whatsoever is nonsensical and is more of a political stance than a logical or scientific one. More research is needed for us to learn what kind of person can be harmed by marijuana use and what kind of person can toke away freely with few or no repercussions. Rubbishing research just because it might reach conclusions we might not like does not make sense.

[bemildred]

47. Indeed. If they did not do something, people would not want to take them.

The claim here is it makes you lazy. Yet there are plenty of counterexamples. Maybe it makes people lazy, or maybe lazy people like pot. Pot is the only way I know, for example, to make mainstream TV interesting to watch, so if you are lazy and like to watch TV, you might very well smoke a lot of pot. That doesn't mean the pot made you lazy. Far from it. It means lazy people like pot.

[True Earthling]

70. So if you are "lazy" you are more likely to smoke pot?

Is that based on personal experience or is there a study you can point me to?

[bemildred]

89. You want me to argue that hippie bashing is right? nt

[True Earthling]

91. "hippie bashing" is your personal interpretation...

do you believe that was the intent of the study and it's authors?

[bemildred]

92. That works, or justification for their biases, or a good way to make a paycheck.

Take your pick. The one thing I won't accept is that what they are doing is science, or "science", or anything like the sober study of empirical facts. Most of the time when I see these correlation studies of personal opinions and attributes (often self-reported or from surveys), I assume they will find what they look for, and they do.

[True Earthling]

99. Since we're on the subject of biases...would those same criticisms apply if the study was positive

on marijuana?

If not then it shows that you're criticism is based on the study not agreeing with your pre-conceived beliefs and not because you believe the study is biased.

[bemildred]

108. Yes. It's all bullshit. It illuminates nothing and it compels nothing.

Hot air dressed up with simple math and dishonest rhetoric.

[Rex]

105. The insincerity of comparing apples to oranges shows in this study.

Good to see only a few gullible people fall for it as being objective.

[bemildred]

109. You notice I didn't even bring up the "replication crisis".

They seem all befuddled by that. How can it not work? We followed the prescribed procedure?

[True Earthling]

115. Comparing "apples to oranges" is not unusual for a research study

The main confounding variable in the study is that alcohol is legal and pot is illegal. Does that invalidate the statistics? Somewhat but I don't think you can attribute the 100% of the negative aspects of marijuana use to the illegality of it. A study will have to be done in an environment i.e. Colorado where marijuana is legal to get a more accurate answer.

[KartBlanche]

198. "All medicines can have side effects."

...and?
Bottom line is, I think, it's MY FUCKING LIFE.
Thanks for your concern.

This lifelong smoker has had a wonderful life so far! Raised 2 fabulous, and happy children who, in turn made me a grandfather 4 times over. I love their company and have an energetic, inventive and joyous relationships with them all - youngest to oldest!
Retired now at 65 and feel my best years are yet to come.

Have a good life,
from one of those - how did you put it? wastrels.

[eShirl]

33. wow, that sounds really scientific

I have seen plenty of middle age, lifelong pot smokers. They are called jazz musicians.

[roody]

41. And teachers and lawyers, etc.

[HuckleB]

124. Fund raisers, funeral directors...

[SammyWinstonJack]

171. And future presidents.....

[roody]

39. I think that a normal mj smoker

Cannot even smoke one joint a day if it is good pot. My cohorts and I have been smoking almost daily since youth. We are successful professionals and are beginning to retire. Cigarettes ravage one's appearance.

[Runningdawg]

76. Agree 100%

That idea is reinforced every time I see someone my age who did not partake of the glorious green, but drank alcohol, smoked cigarettes and worshiped the sun for the last few decades. I look in the mirror and like what I see. I look at my retirement account and savings and like what I see. I look at our new house paid for in cash and like what I see. I look at my empty medicine cabinet, no drugs for chronic pain, stress or depression and I like what I see.

[callous taoboy]

120. I concur 100%. Thank you, Runningdawg.

You spoke my mind. I am in the same boat. I've smoked a silo worth of pot in my life and am an award-winning professional. Right now I work six days a week with my side job, and I plan to retire to a state that has legalized (in 4 years at 55) and vape, and continue to serve my community, wherever that may end up being. This study is bogus on so many levels. You'd have to sit and have an evening long chat with me for me to elucidate all I find wrong with the entire premise of these so-called findings.

[Eleanors38]

213. Yes. Since the price of pot has plunged since CO, I use 1/4 oz of high test in +3 mos.

Studies showing the negative side of pot smoking have a history of poor credibility, about as poor as those put out by gun-control advocates. I'll take this one with a shaker of salt.

[True Earthling]

44. Funny...posts dismissing the study because more people are killed from drunk driving

Funny... because the study agrees. The study found no association with traffic convictions and marijuana use.

Almost 1000 random individuals studied from birth... none using marijuana at base line. Followed for 40 years then compared the marijuana users vs. the non-users.

Not sure how anyone can lightly dismiss this study.

The most anti-scientific stance one could take is to dismiss it based on their own experience or anecdotal evidence.

[Warren Stupidity]

155. So aside from the huge health and safety issues with alcohol, none of which pot has, alcohol

is "safer" than pot?

How can one hold this position without giggling?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

50. How does the damage caused by marijuana compare to the damage caused by alcohol? nt

[Rex]

67. Maybe not, but it is a biased study.

I know rich, rich people that smoke pot and own their own businesses. How do you explain them? I know college professors that smoke pot...again, how did they make it?

Pot is illegal, booze is legal...the study cannot be unbiased toward pot by the nature of the study. Of COURSE pot users suffer more, it is illegal. Anyone can draw that conclusion, it does not take a peer-reviewed study to figure it out.

And heavy use of anything addictive will probably have side effect, long term ones. That too is common sense. Pot is a tool used in class warfare, bottom line.

[True Earthling]

74. A good percentage of people smoke and do not get lung cancer...

does that mean smoking doesn't cause lung cancer?

Maybe the study is biased but it is much worse to base one's views on personal experience or anecdotal evidence.

There may be more life hardships due to the illegality of pot but I wouldn't dismiss the study entirely...

“These findings did not arise because cannabis users were prosecuted and had a criminal record,” said Caspi, a psychologist with dual appointments at Duke University and the Institute of Psychiatry at King’s College London who is senior author of the study. “Even among cannabis users who were never convicted for a cannabis offense, we found that persistent and regular cannabis use was linked to economic and social problems.”

[Rex]

75. I didn't say toss it aside, but comparing people that drink water to people that drink hard liquor

which group do you think has less propensity for ending up in jail or gaining their first social stigma? This study compares apples to oranges. Of course the illegal activity is going to net negative results more then the legal activity.

Pot is a tool of the upper class. You want to do a study? Study why white collar jobs are not drug tested like blue collar jobs. Why do we piss test anyone trying to get a job in the military, but not the leaders in charge of that military?

You can say one's views are not important until that one becomes 30 million in number. Then you have to pay attention or end up looking silly and biased imo.

[True Earthling]

79. 30 million can be wrong just as easily as one...

How many people believe in Creationism? etc.

"Pot is a tool of the upper class"

That sounds like a conspiracy theory...to what end or purpose?

[Rex]

80. To control the masses? Ever read any history?

If you went to fantasy right away, then your analytical mind must be out to lunch. So when you find it, let me know.

[True Earthling]

96. Who is trying to control who?

I have no idea what you mean by this...what fantasy am I going to?

"If you went to fantasy right away, then your analytical mind must be out to lunch. "

All laws are designed to "control" human behavior. The Controlled Substances Act of 1970 is the framework for existing drug laws and was a reaction to the hippie-anti-war movement of which there was pretty rampant drug use. There was definitely a political element to it's passage. That political element has faded away IMO.

There have been a lot of research studies done and a lot more information on the physiological and psychological effects of marijuana exist. There's a ton of evidence on the medical benefits of marijuana. There's also evidence that over-use can have negative psychological effects.

I'm neither for or against marijuana. What I am for is accurate, scientific evidence of the effects of marijuana. ... good or bad.

[Rex]

102. Then why push something that compares apples to oranges?

As this study does? Surely you knew it was biased before posting it?

[AgerolanAmerican]

85. some of the highest performing people I know are weed smokers

You don't have to go very far into the study to read the catch:


"It is unclear whether
adverse social and economic outcomes associated with
cannabis use are a result of cannabis use itself or of being
convicted for a cannabis-related offense. "

Yeah surprise getting thrown in jail and given a criminal record for smoking weed has "adverse social and economic outcomes". No shit, Sherlock.

[dixiegrrrrl]

87. The excerpt says "regular users" then says " Heavy, persistent use"

There is a world of difference between the 2 extremes.

Just as there is a world of difference between "regular" users and "heavy persistent users" of alcohol.
or sugar
or anything.

[Eleanors38]

214. Good point. Regular use may be a joint/wk.

[Jemmons]

137. Perfect example of junk science misapplied to cultural norms, opinions and schadenfreude

Do you think that a lifetime of smoking marijuana really has no physical and psychological effects?

Why ask that if you believe that this question is the subject of said peer reviewed article?

I am all for allowing people to do all the drugs they want and I have enjoyed the occasional joint myself but that will not stop me from acknowledging the fact that heavy and regular drug use, even that of marijuana, will create wastrels.

According to the study abstract that is not at all a fact. The abstract specifically does not mention causation but only association: "Cannabis dependence was associated with more financial difficulties than was alcohol dependence; no difference was found in risks for other economic or social problems." That makes your implication of causality (using "create&quot an opinion masquerading as science.

Have you ever seen a middle-aged man who has been smoking several joints a day since he was 17? They can be quite a sight, and usually a sad one. Dig into their personal lives and you often find it's sadder still. Don't let your political stand about drug use blind you to the physical, mental and social repercussions they can cause.

And here we are dragged into urban myth territory with a "blackie story" full of made up "facts", suggestions and visual scenarios. Plus some more made up causality. Im sure you can work in some meth-mouth in your next attempt.

The paper might not be "hippy bashing", but this clearly is.

[LeftyMom]

177. From UC Davis?

[JackInGreen]

3. Oooh hahaha

I needed that laugh, disharmony in the house this morning. Wake n bake and reading your post to the fam has got us all giggle. Thanks again!

[astrophuss42]

4. Good jobs do require drug tests as far as I know

There are many zero tolerance industries.

[tymorial]

8. One thing I find amusing

Generally not in healthcare.

[killbotfactory]

18. Or in politics, or law enforcement. nt

[Blue_In_AK]

95. Or the legal business.

[bemildred]

19. That is amusing.

I am minded of an oncology nurse I know, a good one, who smokes pot like a chimney.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

46. and i know 2 emergency room nurses who do the same

That's a hella stressful job

[bemildred]

49. Yes, and that's why. nt

[ohnoyoudidnt]

42. Hospitals around here require drug tests for employees.

Some won't even hire you if you smoke cigarettes.

CNAs who work as home health workers is an exception.

[roody]

56. There are flushes for that. Add that to a 6 week abstention and you pass.

[tymorial]

73. Interesting

What state if you dont mind me asking?

[ohnoyoudidnt]

159. Florida

[roody]

216. Years ago in AR when my friends were in nursing school.

[Mariana]

113. My company tests people when they are being promoted.

Explain how that makes any sense - testing the people who are supposedly doing the best work, and then firing them if they fail.

[kristopher]

144. The study doesn't take into account the nonjudicial impact of illegality.

I suppose the logic is that if someone chooses to adapt to the choices forced by drug testing in the workplace, that in itself is a "social problem"; or else they didn't take it into consideration at all. It's hard to believe they just missed the implications it might have but no where is it accounted for in their study.

[Rex]

58. Not white collar jobs, just the working poor get tested for drugs.

MJ is the best class warfare tool the establishment has ever seen.

[PowerToThePeople]

86. truth.

[panader0]

6. I've been conducting that same study for almost 50 years

and can say, unequivocally, that marijuana is safer than alcohol.

[Recursion]

31. What's the Richard Pryor joke?

"Addictive?! I've been doing cocaine for 25 years and I'm not addicted!"

Never been a pot fan, personally (it closes my throat up; cocaine, on the other hand...), but I can think of two things:

1. If it had no effect on people, people wouldn't use it
2. Legal prohibition of it is counterproductive

[HuckleB]

7. Hmm. Correlation is interesting, but one has to wonder if it's more about other factors.

Were these people self-treating mood disorders, anxiety disorders, personality disorders with daily substance use. Of course, there's also the factor that moderation with anything is important.

[Kali]

10. just the word "linked"

gave me the urge to dismiss it.

[jberryhill]

23. The population of regular pot smokers

...is composed of persons who regularly violate the law.

So, yeah, there are all kinds of things that are going to exhibit more frequent occurrence in that population.

That observation has utterly nothing to do with any supposed effect of marijuana itself.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

48. like piss tests for better jobs

I don't drive because i smoke for pain. (That's why god made public transportation.)

Luckily i live in a legal state, so only about 70% of jobs test for weed.

[HuckleB]

127. Very good point.

Major Nixon also has a fair critique just below.

Thank you for not driving, on many levels. I'm lucky enough to be able to walk to work, and even buy most groceries, etc... Via my two feet. And mass transit is a huge need, at least in terms of improving it everywhere. Living in a place where it's feasible is a blessing in this era.

I know the studies show less issues with driving on smoke than alcohol, but a buddy of mine still drives me nuts because he thinks driving while smoking is just dandy. I note that driving without a good night's sleep is really not ok, but I haven't gotten anywhere.

[True Earthling]

51. Does it matter what their motivation is?

Marijuana use has been associated with anxiety and personality disorders...

Continued Cannabis Use and Risk of Incidence and Persistence of Psychotic Symptoms: 10 Year Follow-Up Cohort Study
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/739152

I'm sure a good percentage were self-medicating but what came first? Were they self-medicating when they smoked that first joint? Maybe they started self-medicating when the negative psychological effects of marijuana use set in..thus creating a negative feedback loop.

[HuckleB]

122. If the disorder is already there, it might be the cause for the behaviors in question.

Or that combined with substance use, etc... The post by Major Nixon below this covers the problems quite well.

[Warren Stupidity]

153. does it matter that the "study" ignored health and safety issues?

Did you read the link?

[Major Nikon]

52. I just glanced over the study and found something interesting right away

Supposedly the study corrects for criminal convictions due to the illegality of cannabis compared to the legality of alcohol. So far so good. However, I could find nothing that suggested they correct for the fact that many employers test for cannabis, but not for alcohol. So in other words, the reality that cannabis users face with greatly diminished career options was completely ignored as a socioeconomic factor. Not to mention there's a host of other differences between those two drugs which make it rather like trying to compare cats and dogs. There's simply no way they can correct for all the variables involved.

It's also important to remember that psychological "science" is only a science in the most abstract sense. The efficacy of psychologists, witch doctors, and homeopaths just aren't that different.

[2naSalit]

61. Very good point

one that skews the whole investigation.

[Jemmons]

139. Good point indeed!

[U4ikLefty]

119. Sorry, this is peer-reviewed SCIENCE!!! We must never question our betters in SCIENCE.

What are you some kinda CT crazy? Just like a climate denying anti-vaxxer. I will post many blue-links & talking points to make you believe as I do.

SCIENCE!!!

See how annoying it is?

[HuckleB]

121. You are correlating a single study with thousands of studies...

... Leading to a consensus on things like climate change, vaccines, alt med nonsense, and GMOs.

Yes, it is annoying when science denialists pick one bad study and pretend that it turns the consensus on its head, magically.

Now, are you confessing to have misplaced some socks? Hmm.

[U4ikLefty]

125. You accept the "SCIENCE" that supports your pro-Monsanto buddies.

I caught you showing skepticism in a PEER-REVIEWED study right here. I guess you are the arbiter of real science. Show me your credentials.

Put up or shut up.

[HuckleB]

130. LOL! Keep showing us your ignorance of how science works.

Your fiction-based organic corporations thank you for doing their bidding.

Credentials are all good and well, but they don't prove anything. Again, you show how little you understand science with this silliness.

[U4ikLefty]

133. Yeah, a registered Professional Engineer is "ignorant of how science works"....lol!!!

What are your credentials to be the arbiter of SCIENCE?

Put up or shut up.

[HuckleB]

138. That does explain a lot.

A lot of engineers buy into the anti-GMO silliness because they think they understand biology and chemistry, though they don't. Hell, engineers have a reputation, earned or not, for buying into alt med goofiness, so you might want to go with showing you know, not pontificating from the grand engineer's podium.

Thus, we now understand why you think you understand things you clearly do not understand, such as the value of single studies vs. hundreds of studies. You believe that your education overcomes bad judgment, magically.

It doesn't.

BTW, Mr. Engineer, can you name the logical fallacy you're playing here?

[U4ikLefty]

142. Still refuse to show your credentials. We've played this song before...you lost.

You attack the engineering profession and yet refuse pony up?

You have sunk so low as to send creepy obscenity-laden PMs to me and others http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027419447#post83

so I have a low tolerance for your bullshit. And now you can add attacking the engineering profession to the list. You are getting the Batman-treatment yet again http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027419447#post56

Gonna vape some cheeba & BAM!!!

[HuckleB]

145. So evidence about the topic is not your thing.

Last edited Sat Apr 2, 2016, 11:37 PM - Edit history (3)

You only care about personal goofiness, which is the same thing the poster to whom I responded in your link did for years. Then I got fed up and cussed her out. Calling that creepy is what's creepy. Never being able to support your stances, yet sticking to them no matter what is also pretty creepy.

And yet, oddly, that appears to be something you prefer.

Still, I appreciate this second confession, today. BTW, promoting public fear over scientific evidence as a basis for labels shows that you have no understanding of the scientific method, indeed. Thus, the confessions you have offered today are rather surprising, but quite welcome.

Nicely done. And I didn't even have to ask.



By the way, I know plenty of engineers who understand how science works.

You don't.

[U4ikLefty]

160. I have provided peer-reviewed

THUNK!!!

[HuckleB]

174. Another confession.

Thanks.

"it is important to realize that confident medical judgments or conclusions rarely emerge from single studies – confidence requires a pattern of evidence over many studies."

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/interpreting-the-medical-literature/

[U4ikLefty]

175. I admit you lack even basic knowledge in

KLANK!!!

[HuckleB]

181. And the upside-down, inside-out attack confession continues...

Oh, goodness.



http://www.fastcoexist.com/3046274/the-psychology-of-why-so-many-people-are-anti-gmo

[U4ikLefty]

184. The upside-down logic of a corporate.

THUD!!!

[HuckleB]

191. And now we get the pretending science is a corporate conspiracy routine.

You've got all the ways to ignore science down, don't you?

[U4ikLefty]

199. It's not a conspiracy when I call out someone shilling for corporate

BOPP!!!

[HuckleB]

212. Yes, it is.

All you have is conspiracy bizarro world responses.

Goodbye.

[U4ikLefty]

215. No, it's not a conspiracy when I have thousands of studies proving

SPLATT!!!

[Thor_MN]

179. I once worked for a company where the owner, a medical engineer, melted a plastic drum

onto the warehouse floor by trying to make a a solution by mixing anhydrous calcium chloride and water. Anhydrous calcium chloride is a purer form of a salt used to melt ice on roads. It gives off a lot of heat when dissolving, enough to turn a multi-thousand dollar mixing machine into plastic slag adhered to the concrete floor.

He blamed the guys in the lab (it was before I started or I would have been included in the blame) for not telling him that it would happen, despite his not telling them that he was doing it.

[HuckleB]

182. Yikes.

[U4ikLefty]

183. Cool story bro.

I was on DU where some guy posted a second-hand story that was irrelevant to a subthread.

[Thor_MN]

185. Yeah, I know. Other day, I saw someone who didn't know what they were talking about,

posting random stuff, pretending to be an expert.

[U4ikLefty]

186. That's terrible, it must have made you very sad. Show me the thread, I would like to see

where that person claimed to be an expert.

[Thor_MN]

187. You seem to be very demanding of others.

[U4ikLefty]

188. Oh no, my only wish is to get to the bottom of the case of the alleged expert.

I was making a polite request for direction to the post where that person claimed to be an expert. How dare he!!!

This injustice has made me sleepy. I'm going to bed to re-energize so I can be fresh to fight this atrocity. Night.

[Thor_MN]

189. Goodnight, and goodbye.

Perhaps you will discover the person you seek when you awake refreshed and wash your face.

[HuckleB]

192. I see you've met my logical fallacy fan friend.

Isn't he fun?

[Thor_MN]

193. Meh, if s/he had anything to say, s/he might be fun.

Instead of making ridiculous demands, and totally inane, incorrect analogies.

Oh, and accusing people of being sock puppets and paid trolls...

[HuckleB]

195. But that's irrefutable proof of something or another!

[Thor_MN]

196. But there's peer reviewed BS and your missing credenza!!!

[U4ikLefty]

200. I upset you...poor thing.

It's cute the little bromance going on between you two.

Still looking for evidence of that person claiming to be an expert. I washed my face looked up into the glass thing on my bathroom wall. All I saw was a handsome devil on the other side. I asked him to point me to this mysterious expert, but all he did was parrot my words. It got Mongo angry & I wanted to punch him, but I learned not to hit glass in my engineering classes...SCIENCE!!!

[Thor_MN]

201. Wow, you found him and didn't even notice...

I'm shocked.

[U4ikLefty]

202. That couldn't be the expert, he was way too handsome

It wouldn't be fair for a person THAT good-looking to also be sooo intelligent.

[Thor_MN]

204. No one ever said he wasn't illogically vain as well...

[U4ikLefty]

206. Who could blame him, I mean he IS very handsome.

He was no help in finding this person who claimed to be an expert.

If I say "pretty please" will YOU show me that post? I only wish to help stop this injustice.

[Thor_MN]

207. Have a good life.

[U4ikLefty]

208. You as well.

[ky_dem]

173. That was my first thought -

because it doesn't look like they controlled for confounding factors

[Wilms]

9. Four decades study conducted during four decades of flat and falling wages.

Finally, the true cause has been determined. Marijuana.

Not sure about this one.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. Well ignoring the actual health consequences

of alcohol, yes pot is not safer.

What a bullshit study. Were they fucking stoned when they wrote that headline?

[HassleCat]

29. Drunk.

Or in their cups, as they say over there.

[Major Nikon]

68. Probably not, which is even more sad

About 75% of psychology "studies" fail to pass replication.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-verdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results

[Jemmons]

140. I dont think that all psychology research is rigorous and fail proof, but you misrepresent the Graun

article by suggesting that all 75% fail in testing of their validity.

[Major Nikon]

157. OK, so it's just the 75% that are like this one

Cognitive studies did much better at 50%

Even the studies published in the very best journals(which doesn't include this one) only managed 64%.

So we're still well into voodoo territory regardless.

[Shoulders of Giants]

12. Alcohol is legal but marijuana is not.

Therefore, many of marijuana's consequences comes from it being illegal, not the drug itself. You could go to jail for using it or lose your job. While there are reasons alcohol would cause you to go to jail or lose your job, they are less likely. Marijuana being illegal also causes a self selection problem. People who would have done marijuana if it was legal, won't do it because it isn't. Therefore, people left doing marijuana are people who don't care as much about avoiding jail or having a good job that drug tests. Therefore, this is an unfair comparison. The only way to compare alcohol and marijuana fairly is to do it in a society where society treats both drugs the same. There is no society that does that, so its impossible to do a study like this. You cannot control for the societal acceptance of the drugs, because its impossible to tell exactly what impact that is.

However all that said, Alcohol itself appears to have a much worse impact on someone's health than marijuana. I don't recommend people do either, but this study seems very flawed. You just cannot do a apples to apples comparison of two activities economical and social consequences when one activity is legal and one is not. You would have to control for the variable of its legality, and I don't even know how thats possible for a study of this scope.

[maveric]

98. MM is legal in CA.

But here in San Diego everyone is tested for pot upon employment screening. Most jobs do this.
So is it up to the discretion of the employer to test or not? It's legal to those with a prescription but you can't get hired with it in your system.

[Shoulders of Giants]

111. Even that wouldn't be compariable to Alcohol.

Alcohol has essentially been universally legal for a century now, outside of some dry counties. IN CA, its just medical. Colorado supposedly has full legalization, but its still illegal nationally, and places still refuse to hire you for using it. And its only been a couple of years, where this study claims to be the results of decade of research. I believe this kind of research is pretty much impossible to do currently, unless we ever see a society that treats alcohol and marijuana at least nearly equally for decades.

[GliderGuider]

14. "Linked to" ... as a cause or an effect?

...

Crickets.

What unmitigated bullshit.

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. exactly.

[notadmblnd]

15. That's just silly. Everyone knows that pot smokers are too lazy to get off the couch

Yeah, they're just too lazy to get jobs, pay their bills or invest in relationships

Seriously, I smoked my first joint at 16 and feel I'm doing pretty good coming out the other end of midlife. Let's see, my house is almost paid for, I'm retired with two pensions and was married til death we did part. I've never laid a hand on my child or spouse in anger and have never received a dime of welfare.

I will admit, I can be quite antisocial as I have a low tolerance for BS such as the article you just posted.

So no, I wont be passing this article on to the lady I know who owns seven McDonalds restaurants, she might be a little pissed to find out how poorly she's doing.

[Nevernose]

69. Potheads are usually unsuccessful losers.

Like those three guys who got high and named their computer company after a fruit, or the current president, or Martha Stewart, Margret Mead, and all four Beatles...

Seriously, I'd love to see how these researchers accounted for other variables (besides jail) and still come up with causation.

[Jitter65]

148. I sure have enough of them in my family. Loss of vitality of life. Actually seem joyless after

years of use. I guess tolerance levels raise and it takes more an more to feel the bliss?

[Nevernose]

150. Did you miss the list of super successful potheads?

There was more than the subject line.

[Jitter65]

151. Nope, didn't miss it. Just know some long-term smokers in my family. nt

[callous taoboy]

123. This line:

"I will admit, I can be quite antisocial as I have a low tolerance for BS such as the article you just posted."

Where I'm at. Thanks!

[onecaliberal]

16. The one thing you'll never do on pot is have a blackout while driving and

Commit vehicular manslaught. What are they going to come up with next?

[elehhhhna]

107. Or sleep with a creep. Or barf on things. Or start fights. Or...

[Faux pas]

21. I call

BS!!!! It's never caused me, or any of my fellow tokers any problems. In fact, we've all been fairly successful in our lives.

[sendero]

22. Nothing quite like a "contrarian" viewpoint...

.... that is just stupid. As if alcohol didn't engender all of these problems and more.

[marmar]

25. Reefer Madness lives !!!

Peddling old bullshit in a new wrapper.

[eShirl]

27. compare deaths per year, cannabis vs. alcohol

then tell me which one is safer

[HassleCat]

28. Well, duh!

I think we all knew about stoners before someone "studied" them. At least stoners, unlike alcoholics, aren't killed outright.

[elleng]

30. Which came first,

regular cannabis use or downward social mobility and financial problems?

[edhopper]

34. that is a good question.

[edhopper]

32. I don't know if anyone wants to argue that there are not people for whom

marijuana use is a problem.
But the study points out that it safer for your health than alcohol and since it is still not as bad as alcohol use, which this study also says, would not have a negative impact on the general population, at least not as bad as alcohol, which is legal, why should pot be illegal?
is study does nothing to support pot staying illegal. Especially since that small percent of users with problems don't seem to have any trouble getting it.

[leftyladyfrommo]

35. I don't think it's good for high school kids

to be stoned all the time. Or probably college kids. I am talking heavy smoking. Makes it too easy to procrastinate. Or maybe that was just me.

I've smoked almost all my life. I don't think it's hurt me much. But I don't buy into the whole establishment thing. I am perfectly happy in my little house trying not to use much stuff that hurts the environment. I am just an old hippy and that's fine by me. I hated having to work in the business world. I hate the competitive environment where everybody is out to get everybody else. Hated it.

[bemildred]

112. You certainly can overdo it.

But it depends on your stiuation. When I was studying graduate math at Berkely in the '70s I had to give it up, it affected short term memory, focus, quite alert but just not sufficiently obsessive about the math. And that came up with software engineering too.

And of course if you eat enough you are going to go to sleep.

[leftyladyfrommo]

117. Ya, eating can be a problem.

I think my food bills got pretty high while I was smoking every day. I used to just open the fridge and clean it out.

That's another consideration to take into account. I forgot about that one. But I didn't go out a lot. Mostly stayed home and watched cartoons.

Those were such good old days. We had so much fun and laughed so hard.

[callous taoboy]

126. Pot helped me deal with high school and a fucked up, alcoholic home.

I seriously loathed the jocks and elite alcoholic assholes who looked down their noses at me and my stoner friends. I used to write my most difficult papers in college high, and always was credited with having a unique perspective and made good marks. At 51 I am quite happy with who I am now. I am self-sufficient, own a nice little home in a town that is not easy to buy a home in, have a job that I love which helps my community and will provide me with a comfortable retirement in a few years.

[GliderGuider]

36. Economic and social problems like these guys?

Sir Richard Branson
Rick Steves
Aaron Sorkin
Michael Phelps
Barack Obama
Michael Bloomberg
Justin Trudeau
Ted Turner
Montel Williams
Stephen King
Arnold Schwarzenegger

All smokers.

Oh yeah, and Francis Crick (you know who he was, right?) took acid.

Please stop blowing smoke up our butts.

[cannabis_flower]

114. Forgot

Carl Sagan and of course, many others.

[callous taoboy]

129. Also- Steve Jobs (also an acid head), and my favorite, Carl Sagan.

And I'm assuming Neil DeGrasse Tyson. And the entire cast of the original Saturday Night Live and many of the cast of the subsequent years.

[Oneironaut]

37. Correlation == causation

This is useless unless if it can be proven that pot use hurts the brain. Maybe it's the other way around - people with these problems use more cannabis.

[spanone]

38. bull and shit

[smiley]

40. I think I'll continue this study.

I gave up alcohol 4 years ago and my life has never been more productive and I've never felt healthier. I'm also more financially secure than I've ever been. But I never gave up the MJ.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

53. 5 years no alc for me too

Good job!

[smiley]

136. Congrats to you too!

[callous taoboy]

131. Good on you, Smiley.

Alcohol has always been the real bummer in my life, so I've kept it at arms length. But not the MJ. Actually, as I get older I find myself excited about being perfectly sober for weeks and weeks and then KABOWIE when I hit the MJ again. Such a sweet homecoming.

[smiley]

135. Thank you!

It's not easy and the lure is still there. But I know the path I was on before was not a healthy one.

I occasionally take time off from the MJ too. It's always good to step away and let the head clear a bit. You're right about that first toke back. Simply delicious and the buzz is wonderful!

[edhopper]

43. But it clearly states it is safer

“Cannabis may be safer than alcohol for your health, but not for your finances,”

just not safer in every way.

False headline.

[MindPilot]

97. I will make $110,000 this year.

So if I didn't do cannabis, I would make 120?

Clearly my finances are suffering.

Hell, if I also gave up my Crown Royal and craft beers, I would probably be rich enough to run for president.

[edhopper]

100. that part is questionable

as a generalization as well.

[Avalux]

54. Junk science. The findings of this 'study' mean nothing.

We need rigorous clinical research studying the effects of cannabis and won't be able to do that until it's removed from the fed's really bad drug list.

FYI - alcohol and cannabis have completely different mechanisms of action.

[Gormy Cuss]

60. This isn't a study of physiological effects.

It's also not based on a U.S. cohort.

It's a social outcomes assessment based on a longitudinal study in New Zealand.

[Avalux]

63. My point exactly. Means nothing. n/t

[Rex]

55. LOL! Heavy use of anything will likely have an impact on the body and mind. Duh?

'These findings did not arise because cannabis users were prosecuted and had a criminal record'...riiiiggghttt the entire study is desperate for people to believe it! I'm sure non-violent drug arrests had nothing to do with it either. MJ is the most politicized drug on the planet, it is pathetic how people use it for political gain.

After all, we can see how pot use kept Bill Clinton and Barack Obama in menial jobs all their life...oh wait. I know what the biggest fear is of the establishment, that recreational pot use has no long term impact mentally or physically...that has to scare the hell out of authoritarians.

Their use of pot as a weapon to keep the working class down is as sad as it gets.

[Politicalboi]

57. Horse Shit

More drunks are homeless and laying in their own vomit than pot heads. This study done by the Alcohol Company.

[B Calm]

59. This is the type of studies Hillary and DWS pay attention to.

[Iggo]

62. People engaging in illegal activity suffer socially?

Do tell!

[SalviaBlue]

64. Gee, ya think its 'cause its illegal?

[hobbit709]

65. did they talk to Willie Nelson about this?

[Warren Stupidity]

71. Actual admission of how bullshitty this is from link.

Cannabis may be safer than alcohol for your health, but not for your finances,” said Moffitt, a psychologist with dual appointments at Duke University and the Institute of Psychiatry at King’s College London.

The study only addressed the economic and social consequences of cannabis use. In this domain, they found that cannabis did not appear to be safe and may be just as harmful as alcohol.

From the op's link.

[Rex]

72. People that drink Pepsi are less likely to end up in jail, then people that drink Old Milwaukee.

[Visionary]

77. Load of crap

What a load of junk. Alcohol abuse will lead to early death and severe health problems. Pot abuse will lead to a lower economic standing? I guess that's horrifying if you believe economic standing is the only measure of personal worth.

[Rex]

82. Well comparing apples to oranges has always been the long con.

It doesn't fly here very well...too many of us old timers call it out. Welcome to DU.

[Warren Stupidity]

152. The article itself explicitly notes that the study ignored health and safety issues.

So by "not safe" they meant "much safer for you, but you might not be as well off financially as alcoholics who haven't managed to kill themselves". Most likely because the 40 year pot smokers don't give a shit about owning a Tesla.

[Fumesucker]

162. A Tesla is one of the few cars I'd actually be interested in owning these days

Everyone I know interested in EVs including Tesla are less uber acquisitive bastards and more technology obsessed geeks.

[Warren Stupidity]

163. Yeah it was a poor choice of top gear.

[seanjoycek476]

78. I'm still in favor of legalization

After all, pot is still no more dangerous than either alcohol or tobacco.

[TIME TO PANIC]

81. Brought to you by the private prison and pharmaceutical industries.

[YOHABLO]

83. Since when did pot cause liver damage? Even enough water can kill you.

[Zen Democrat]

84. That's a bunch of psychobabble. Followed by complete bullshit.

The Establishment and their crazy attempts at manipulation!

[Z_California]

88. Like ALL "studies" of this kind

nothing is proven other than CORRELATION. The authors of the study will be the first to tell you that there is no evidence that cannabis use CAUSES these results. It's very likely in my mind that the causation flows in the opposite direction, difficult life circumstances leads to the use of substances to cope. So absolutely no surprise in my mind that there is correlation between the two.

The problem is that the vast majority of people don't understand the difference between causation and correlation and the media doesn't make any effort to explain it when they splash studies like these on the headlines. We've had the same problem with nutritional "studies" for many many years and it has caused an obesity epidemic.

I'm sure the pharmaceutical industry is quite pleased with this "study" and will use it in any way they can, honestly or otherwise.

[MindPilot]

90. I wonder if they adjusted for intellect?

Smart people will generally have greater prosperity and fewer social problems than the not-so-smart regardless of how much pot they smoke.

[bemildred]

116. +1 nt

[Blue_In_AK]

93. Right.

As a regular long-time user, I find this article highly offensive. The researchers probably went in with a preconceived theory and then found the "facts" to fit it.

[Johnny2X2X]

94. Good data point

Marijuana studies can be good data points and help educate people to make more informed decisions about the choices they want to make. Sure, weed probably isn't that great for you, doesn't mean it should still be illegal.

Proponents of legalization should embrace scientific data like this, not try to discredit it anecdotally. The more we know, the better.

[arcane1]

101. I've been smoking since 1985 and I'm currently more well-off financially than I've ever been.

I must be an outlier

Funny how you had to put "safer" in quotes to avoid making it sound like health problems.

[B Calm]

128. 1968 here. I'm retired and sitting pretty good financially.

[kristopher]

143. I just read the study's analysis section - Question for you

Did employer drug testing impact your choice of employers?

[arcane1]

146. Fortunately, that was never a factor for me, but it easily could have been.

And it would have made a difference. I would've avoided applying for a job at a company that tests, unless it was the only choice I had.

I'm not sure if I ever saw a correlation between the quality of the job and whether or not the company tests. It seemed in my experience that the jobs that required testing kind of sucked anyway, and/or the company was hard-ass in other ways too.

[kristopher]

147. I've seen a lot of people drift towards employment where testing is rare.

It doesn't seem to be a conscious decision, just the thing to do at the moment. Then, before they know it, they're behind the career curve their peers are following and face a whole new set of obstacles that have nothing to do with drug testing.

I think the OP study isn't invalid so much as it is comprehensive enough to be on-target in support of it's stated conclusion.

[gollygee]

103. So to be fair you'd have to compare

"Regular users" of marijuana to "regular users" of alcohol, and you'd have to define "regular user" in a fair and comparable way.

And then a heavy, persistent user of most substances would have economic and social problems at midlife. I don't know if that is the fair measure of how dangerous it is.

[Warpy]

104. Downward social mobility?

That's been rather the norm in this country since liberals went out of power in 1969, to be replaced by cheap labor conservatives in both parties who were sold on the idea that greedy working people were the sole cause of inflation (don't look at that OPEC behind the curtain!).

It looks like this is one of the antidrug "studies" that found exactly what it was looking for.

[Rex]

106. It is a disingenuous study that will be pushed by people that willingly ignore comparing

something illegal and highly politicized to something legal and socially encouraged. This sounds like a 'study' done by fake economists like Charles Krauthammer.

[Cartoonist]

110. I am a heavy smoker

In Bill Clinton's last year in office I was earning $40,000 per year. Then came George Bush. I suffered along with many other people and saw my job disappear. I got a low skilled job and saw my earnings drop to half.

Therefore, I conclude that republican policies are worse than marijuana and alcohol combined.

[leftyladyfrommo]

118. That is so true. nt

[pbmus]

132. If I was a chronic alcoholic for 40 years

I would not only be a dysfunctional human I would most probably be dead.

[B Calm]

134. My mother died at 49. She was an alcoholic all her adult life.

[pbmus]

141. Sorry for your loss in so many ways

Hopefully she was not abusive to others .

[brewens]

154. Duh! I always have trouble selecting a breakfast wine or I'd probably be drunk every morning!

Of course heavy persistent use is not good! Some people will do that unfortunately, like the guy that gets a half gallon of cheap wine as soon as the store opens. I've watched that.

Don't "wake and bake" unless it's one of you days off and you like to start your day that way.

[moondust]

156. You mean pot smoking doesn't help people

achieve conventional "success" in a deregulated, laissez-faire, corporatist economy that rewards aggressive amoral behavior?

[AgadorSparticus]

158. At least they are alive to have social and economic problems. ..

Alcohol kills 88,000 people a year and is the #1 most lethal drug out there. Marijuana is no where close to this.

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

[Tsiyu]

161. I saw this study several months back and SMH

I wish some researchers would get their heads out of their asses and tell us what cannabis does right rather than constantly playing the nagging Nellies of the stuff-we-take-to-make-us-feel-better world.

The same researchers blithely give the nod to dangerous pharmaceutical products, but as long as it's a tidy, unsmelly pill it's pure as goddamned gold.

To be fair, the study may have some validity if we could parse how they controlled for variables and selected the study participants.

Some factors which might lead to a downward spiral for cannabis users are most definitely related to its status as a substance worse than Satan's toejam. Even if, as this study insists, the study participants "were never convicted of a cannabis offense" they certainly could not go around on equal footing with an alcohol consumer, toking up at any and all social events, rolling blunts in pubs and restaurants. Talking about their party usage with other parents at the soccer game.

No, they had to hide their brain balm of choice for fear of some serious shit in some places. Losing everything including their kids. They had to go through lots of hoops to partake of their substance of choice. They were forced to lie about it and strategically plan out cannabis use.

They also couldn't enjoy the alcohol consumer's ease of purchase. You can walk into a store on Sunday in Tennessee and buy all the beer you can stand to piss back out. But you can't just walk into a licensed retail establishment in Tennessee and point at a few jars of bud.

To obtain cannabis in an illegal zone, you have to spend gas money and time and pay premium prices unless you want your hookup to be some punk who also sells crank and Black Market pills.

Sure, you could grow your own and then there's little financial strain to obtain the substance, but since cops will pull up your tomato plants, okra and horse mint in the Noble Quest against the Ebull Marijuanas and then jail you while they figure out how to charge you for your vegetables and confiscate your new car, the potential for a severe financial hit makes Garden to Table cannabis a no-no.

If cannabis truly can be used medicinally for glaucoma, neurological issues, muscle tremors, chronic pain, appetite and anxiety disorders, then those who "self-medicate" may be intuitively doing the right thing. Even though hypocrite pill-poppers scoff and slug another glass of boxed wine at the mere suggestion of such a thing.

But making cannabis users jump through ridiculous, draconian hoops to have the medicine they choose to use, either for a condition or for recreation like alcohol, certainly would tend to put a burden on anyone. No one wants to feel evil for walking into the store to buy a beer. But that same "one" has no problem pretending all cannabis users live in their mothers' basements and can't hold down jobs.

So, "Duh." When you make someone go through hell to use something that makes them feel better, when you demonize them, marginalize them and insist they are criminal-natured, it MIGHT just have a negative impact.

Who the fuck knew?

[B Calm]

164. +1 great post!

[Warren Stupidity]

165. They also explicitly ignored the very real health and safety issues with alcohol in order to

pronounce it "safer" than pot. How can anyone take this seriously?

[Iggo]

166. Exactly!

[callous taoboy]

167. Brought to you by Anheuser-Busch. This bud's for you.

[Tsiyu]

168. And it pairs so well with

hypocrisy

disenfranchisement

bigotry

and closed-mindedness!

Drink up, 'Murica!!!! :

[jmowreader]

210. Read the paper. Turns out both bud and Bud will crimp your earning capacity

[womanofthehills]

169. Two alcoholic woman friends recently died (one 45 and one 56) of cirrhosis - so sad.

All my pot smoking friends - alive and well and looking good!

[Warren DeMontague]

170. That's not what the study "found". And it's a ridiculous assertion.

By ANY rational yardstick cannabis is safer.

Francis Young (DEA Adminsistrative Law Judge):

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/109464-in-strict-medical-terms-marijuana-is-far-safer-than-many

In strict medical terms marijuana is far safer than many foods we commonly consume. For example, eating 10 raw potatoes can result in a toxic response. By comparison, it is physically impossible to eat enough marijuana to induce death. Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man

How many people die of THC poisoning a year? How many people die of alcohol poisoning?

How many people are admitted to hospitals with life-threatening delerium tremens or other physiological symptoms from severe marijuana withdrawal?

etc.

[Warren DeMontague]

172. If New Zealand didn't want to encourange pot smoking, they shouldnt have shot the LOTR movies there.

For fuckin' real, yo.

[JDPriestly]

176. Question is whether people use cannabis regularly because theyBut i have economic and social and

other problems or whether the cannabis causes them to have those problems.

It's pretty clear that excessive use of any substance, alcohol or cannabis is associated with having problems coping with life. But are the problems the cause of the excessive use of a substance or is it really the substance causing the problem.

I do not favor using alcohol or cannabis. But I would like better research done on this.

Certain groups like Mormons, old-fashioned Methodists and others, maybe 7th Day Adventists don't use these substances or could make a control group to test the effect of these substances. But even with them as a control group, you would still have to account for the fact that a person who chooses a way of life that is substance-free, meaning free of alcohol of cannabis might have more self-discipline than a person who uses the substances, and that self-discipline may be the reason they don't use substances as well as the reason that they don't have the problems associated with the substance use.

How to find out?

[dchill]

178. Party pooper.

[hughee99]

180. One of those threads where you only need to read the title to know exactly what the discussion

will be. n/t

[Fumesucker]

190. One of those threads where you know the title is a lie before clicking on it

[NickB79]

194. Well, only one thing to do then: Ban alcohol as well

Oh, wait....

[Strelnikov_]

197. "We have plenty of grass, and as we all know . . .

Dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope!"

[Dont call me Shirley]

203. Funded by the alcohol industry....

[jmowreader]

209. Here's the study paper, and it's kinda interesting

http://cpx.sagepub.com/content/early/2016/03/16/2167702616630958.full.pdf?ijkey=PjD9gu0wSdxIDI9&keytype=finite

Let us examine one paragraph on page 13:

At comparable levels of persistence, cannabis and alcohol dependence were similarly linked to downward mobility, antisocial behavior in the workplace, relation- ship conflict, and traffic conviction (see Table 4 for associations). Findings were unchanged after we controlled for all potential confounders.

From what I get out of this study, there are essentially two groups of people: people who got mixed up with drugs to the point of being dependent on them, and people who didn't. The drug-dependent group turned out bad regardless of the drug they chose. The non-drug-dependent group turned out okay.

The real lesson here is, a drug habit will fuck up your future regardless of the drug you like.

[MillennialDem]

211. Who gives a shit? It's your body. I don't smoke weed, should be legal. Hell oxycodone and cocaine

should be legal.