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Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:11 AM

IMHO This is sick, sick, sick...

Perinatal hospice care prepares parents for the end, at life’s beginning

http://wapo.st/1XC4Qjj

The baby who would soon die arrived at 34 weeks, eyes shut, squawking. Her father cut the umbilical cord with a pair of silver scissors. A priest in blue scrubs sprinkled Holy Water on her forehead. A photographer circled the delivery room, capturing her last moments.




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Reply IMHO This is sick, sick, sick... (Original post)
reACTIONary Apr 2016 OP
Rex Apr 2016 #1
Jeffersons Ghost Apr 2016 #3
Rex Apr 2016 #6
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #13
Rex Apr 2016 #37
Bucky Apr 2016 #59
Rex Apr 2016 #77
WillowTree Apr 2016 #2
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #16
moonbabygo Apr 2016 #22
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #27
hollysmom Apr 2016 #30
moonbabygo Apr 2016 #39
hollysmom Apr 2016 #42
moonbabygo Apr 2016 #43
hollysmom Apr 2016 #50
elehhhhna Apr 2016 #51
Hekate Apr 2016 #86
hollysmom Apr 2016 #87
Hekate Apr 2016 #89
WillowTree Apr 2016 #38
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #56
WillowTree Apr 2016 #84
Brickbat Apr 2016 #4
Igel Apr 2016 #11
drmeow Apr 2016 #83
MowCowWhoHow III Apr 2016 #5
LineLineReply .
Brickbat Apr 2016 #8
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #18
gratuitous Apr 2016 #7
easttexaslefty Apr 2016 #29
elehhhhna Apr 2016 #52
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #55
gratuitous Apr 2016 #73
Bettie Apr 2016 #101
hack89 Apr 2016 #9
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #20
WillowTree Apr 2016 #40
Arkansas Granny Apr 2016 #10
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #12
Arkansas Granny Apr 2016 #15
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #19
Brickbat Apr 2016 #17
malaise Apr 2016 #45
TreasonousBastard Apr 2016 #14
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #23
Brickbat Apr 2016 #25
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #31
Brickbat Apr 2016 #33
Iggo Apr 2016 #21
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #24
elehhhhna Apr 2016 #53
Warpy Apr 2016 #54
ScreamingMeemie Apr 2016 #26
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #34
ScreamingMeemie Apr 2016 #35
annabanana Apr 2016 #111
easttexaslefty Apr 2016 #28
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #58
easttexaslefty Apr 2016 #95
narnian60 Apr 2016 #32
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #69
LanternWaste Apr 2016 #36
4Q2u2 Apr 2016 #41
maxrandb Apr 2016 #44
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #65
Adrahil Apr 2016 #46
4Q2u2 Apr 2016 #47
Adrahil Apr 2016 #49
Bettie Apr 2016 #102
KamaAina Apr 2016 #48
Butterbean Apr 2016 #57
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #61
Butterbean Apr 2016 #62
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #66
Butterbean Apr 2016 #68
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #71
OneGrassRoot Apr 2016 #108
ScreamingMeemie Apr 2016 #93
Bettie Apr 2016 #103
Butterbean Apr 2016 #60
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #63
Butterbean Apr 2016 #64
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #67
Butterbean Apr 2016 #70
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #72
4Q2u2 Apr 2016 #75
Butterbean Apr 2016 #81
Bettie Apr 2016 #104
OneGrassRoot Apr 2016 #74
4Q2u2 Apr 2016 #78
Butterbean Apr 2016 #80
ScreamingMeemie Apr 2016 #91
OneGrassRoot Apr 2016 #97
Butterbean Apr 2016 #79
Hekate Apr 2016 #88
ScreamingMeemie Apr 2016 #92
OneGrassRoot Apr 2016 #98
ScreamingMeemie Apr 2016 #90
OneGrassRoot Apr 2016 #109
reACTIONary Apr 2016 #94
OneGrassRoot Apr 2016 #96
UtahJosh Apr 2016 #105
Bettie Apr 2016 #106
OneGrassRoot Apr 2016 #107
EllieBC Apr 2016 #76
Butterbean Apr 2016 #82
Hekate Apr 2016 #85
Thor_MN Apr 2016 #99
Bettie Apr 2016 #100
CTyankee Apr 2016 #110
Raine1967 Apr 2016 #112

Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:17 AM

1. So the infants greatest sensation will be dying, I don't really know what to say about that.

 

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having a baby? Have to admit this is way out of my league. Just seems unnatural to me and wrong, but I don't have kids so what do I know.

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Response to Rex (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:19 AM

3. dying? that is simply part of the life cycle

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Response to Jeffersons Ghost (Reply #3)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:24 AM

6. Not usually for an infant though, which was my point.

 

Usually it is the start of life. I tend to think you are being a bit sarcastic.

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Response to Rex (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:03 AM

13. You apparently have a better grasp on this than...

Last edited Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:25 PM - Edit history (1)

.... some of the folks who want to have kids.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #13)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 12:17 PM

37. I just would not do it myself, it doesn't sound right to me.

 

Bringing a baby into the world just so it can die a few minutes or hours later. No. For others yes, for me no...never.

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Response to Rex (Reply #37)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:44 PM

59. I'd share you judgment if it was me. But families deserve to be able to do this, if they want

It's gonna be traumatic either way. The best course of action is the one that brings the family the most closure and the fetus/infant the least suffering.

How tragic

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Response to Bucky (Reply #59)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:27 PM

77. I think it is ultimately a private matter that is none of my business.

 

Anything that helps cope with a tragic loss, I can understand that. What is tragic is any part of the state thinking it has a right to dictate to a family what they can do. The only person that can say something imo is their doctor.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:18 AM

2. Have you lost a child soon after birth?

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:11 AM

16. Nope, but....

...i certinally would not make a big dramatic production of it if I did, bnor would I go through with the birth knowing this to be the result. It seems extrodinarly self centered and a violation of human dignity to me.

I would say it is an asspect of a culture of death.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #16)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:30 AM

22. You should have no opinion unless

 

you have been there. This was probably done for the grieving parents to help them move along.

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Response to moonbabygo (Reply #22)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:45 AM

27. Sorry, I do have an opinion. I think you are right.....

..... it was done for the grieving parents today's help them move on. And it waste done at the expense of the child, which, in my opinion is inhumaine and an affront today's human dignity . I don't believe that "moving on" justifies that. That's my opinion.

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Response to moonbabygo (Reply #22)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:51 AM

30. that is not true,

I have friends who have been through it, and I have an opinion.
My heart broke for them, but nothing compared to their pain. It was the worst because the doctor told them the baby was dead, but it was alive when he induced delivery, but not old enough to survive, it died in pain a few days later. It was a terrible pain, they will never forget even though it happened 20 years ago and they have healthy children now. They will always miss the child they did not have.
No, they did not film it. I understand the religious implication here, my friends were good catholics, but they were overcome by grief when they were told there was no heart beat (there was apparently since the child lived for a while, and here is the kicker, if they had not had a vaginal delivery, done a c-section, the baby might have lived.
I was there for them if they needed me, but mostly they sought comfort with each other.

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Response to hollysmom (Reply #30)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 12:32 PM

39. how sad

 

sorry for your friends, glad they had you.

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Response to moonbabygo (Reply #39)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 12:46 PM

42. for a lighter answer, live long enough and a lot of stuff happens.

right now, I am trying to figure out how to tell my pregnant niece to not freak out. but she was born with fur, it fell out after a couple of days, but she had dark fur all over her body. She is like Snow White - dark hair and eyes, and pale white skin so dark fur stood out. right now, she does not have a lot of hair on her body, just her head, so no left over that she would have to shave, no dark moustache or dark arm hair. I don't want her to be upset if her baby has the same thing.

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Response to hollysmom (Reply #42)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 12:53 PM

43. LOL

 

I mean no disrespect and I'm glad her fur fell off. I have heard of that before. You know what I think? Let's say the baby is covered with fur, once that little darling gets placed in your niece's arms she will not see the fur only the love of joy she helped create

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Response to moonbabygo (Reply #43)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 06:05 PM

50. her mother didn't take it well

But my niece has a bigger heart. I am sure you are right, still I would like to warn her. Her parents and grand parents are dead and her sister was a child, I am probably the only one around her who remembers.

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Response to moonbabygo (Reply #43)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 06:29 PM

51. No, she'll see the fur. Needs a heads up. It happens.

 

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Response to hollysmom (Reply #42)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:36 AM

86. Sounds like it was just Lanugo, which is usually unpigmented and falls out shortly


You should let her know. I'm sorry her mother freaked out -- strangely, it was one of those things I read about when I was pregnant with my first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanugo

Lanugo (/ləˈnuːɡoʊ, -ˈnjuː-/;[1][2] from Latin lana "wool" is very fine, soft, usually unpigmented, downy hair that is sometimes found on the body of a fetus or newborn baby. It is the first hair to be produced by the fetal hair follicles, and it usually appears at about five months of gestation. It is normally shed before birth, around seven or eight months of gestation, but is sometimes present at birth. It disappears on its own within a few days or weeks.[3]

It is replaced by hair covering the same surfaces, which is called vellus hair. This hair is finer and more difficult to see. The more visible hair that persists into adulthood is called terminal hair. It forms in specific areas and is hormone-dependent.[4]

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Response to Hekate (Reply #86)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:51 AM

87. her fur was very dark, black. and she was born 2 weeks late so they had to induce the mother.

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Response to hollysmom (Reply #87)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:54 AM

89. Yeah that would surely be memorable!

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #16)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 12:26 PM

38. Me either.

But I would have to assume that such services are optional and as far as I'm concerned, whatever helps the grieving parents to get through it is fine by me. I doubt that I would want such goings on, but we all grieve differently and I'll not criticize if that gives some kind of comfort to others.

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #38)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:30 PM

56. I think we have to consider more than just the grieving parents...

..... there was also a child involved that suffered and did not have to. I think that some "whatevers" are not justified in order to deal with grief.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #56)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:10 AM

84. I missed the part of the article that talked about these babies suffering.

Did they suffer? Do you know that they didn't slip away peacefully in the arms of their parents?

What your posts throughout this thread say to me is that you only support the right to choose if the choice the parents make is one that you approve of, whether you know all the facts of their situation or not.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:20 AM

4. I object to the mandating of informing people about perinatal hospice as part of abortion

counseling. I do think hospice is an outstanding service, no matter what stage of life it comes at, and if people choose to go through with pregnancy knowing they can get comfort through hospice at the end of their babies' short lives, I support that.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #4)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:56 AM

11. How's this?

If you're pregnant and the doc involved determines that almost certainly the child will be born with some deficiency that for most women might cause abortion to be deemed a viable option, strongly suggest that

likely outcomes from the pregnancy be discussed
abortion be one of the options discussed
hospice care be one of the options discussed

If a doctor has an objection to one or the other, s/he should say so and an alternative doctor or counselor be available. That avoids the mandate for either, since some doctors may object on moral grounds to one or the other.

I suspect that many would mandate counseling abortion, but object to having the woman involved given information about another choice, hospice. I also suspect that many would mandate counseling hospice care, but object to having the woman involved given information about another choice, abortion. Having an alternative presenter available avoids having to privilege one side or the other, and allows a choice.

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Response to Igel (Reply #11)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:21 PM

83. I got the impression

that the anti-choice people want to mandate presenting this as an option after a woman has decided to have an abortion and goes to try to get that abortion - and that I would have a problem with. I support if the woman's OB presents this as one of many options when the problem is discovered and before a woman makes a choice but once she's decided on an abortion she should be able to get that abortion in peace and quiet without being pressured one more time not to abort just because a religious group thinks it is wrong.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:21 AM

5. Username checks out

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Response to MowCowWhoHow III (Reply #5)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:25 AM

8. .

Well said.

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Response to MowCowWhoHow III (Reply #5)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:14 AM

18. Check. Now that you've dissed me...

.... do you have anything substantive to say?

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:25 AM

7. Absolutely

Anyone who doesn't grieve the way I do is sick, sick, sick. I am the sole and best arbiter of the proper way to handle life's catastrophic events, and I will force anyone thinking of doing something different (sick, sick, sick as they are) to conform to my tastes.

Wait; now that I look it over, that just sounds stupid.

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Response to gratuitous (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:50 AM

29. Yep

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Response to gratuitous (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 06:30 PM

52. Me too.

 

Well done.

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Response to gratuitous (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 06:51 PM

55. Personally, I don't think that putting another human being...

.... (the child) through pain and suffering is an appropriate way to grieve. I consider it inhumaine and an affront to human dignity .

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #55)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:04 PM

73. Yeah, you said that

Several times. And it still doesn't make it any more true for the family going through this. I wouldn't presume to tell them how they should deal with this incomprehensibly sad situation anymore than I'd want them to tell me how to deal with a horrible situation in my life. Still less would I want to see legislation enacted to enshrine your opinion into law, even if you do think it's sick, sick, sick.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #55)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:11 AM

101. So, you would mandate

abortion as the only option in situations where a disorder is incompatible with life? Regardless of the wishes of the parent?

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:29 AM

9. Even seconds spend with your child are precocious ... I know from personal experience. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:22 AM

20. I'm sorry for your loss. My own choice would be ....

... to forgo such satisfaction in preference to what I would consider a more humaine alternative consistent with my conception of human dignity.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #20)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 12:33 PM

40. And that should absolutely be your option.

But you don't get to decide what's right for someone else and your judgments of others is what strikes me as sick, sick, sick.

JMHO.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:48 AM

10. I consider this a matter of choice and I would support any parent who chose this route.

Having said that, had I known at the time that my tiny son's life would consist of a 10 hours struggle to breathe and an unsuccessful surgery, I would have chosen to abort.

Either outcome is heartbreaking.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:59 AM

12. Yes, it's a matter of choise, and IMHO....

.... it's the wrong choice and, IMHO, sick, sick, sick.

I wouldn't express that opinion face to face with someone who made that chioce, but in a general discussion forum I have no compunction about doing so.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:08 AM

15. All I can say is that I hope you are never faced with this tragic circumstance.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #15)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:19 AM

19. I hope no one will ever be faced with such an tragedy..

.... and I hope that in the face of such a tragedy we would make a choice that is more consistent with human dignity. That's my opinion .

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:14 AM

17. Way to take a stand there, reACTIONary. Way to take a stand.

Last edited Mon Apr 18, 2016, 12:43 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 01:38 PM

45. The decision should be made by the parents and their doctor

and not anyone else

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:04 AM

14. This isn't sick-- it is heartbreaking...

I have no idea what parents feel when they her their child won't live, but I'm sure whatever they feel it's horrible.

A hundred years ago there were few, if any choices, but now there are. Choice can be difficult, but whatever they choose should be best for their suffering and the baby's and no one has any right to get into their business over it.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:30 AM

23. It certainly is their choice....

..... but judging such choices impersonally in a public forum is my right and i have no compunction about doing so. In my opinion this chioce represents self gratification at the expense of another human being. I believe its is inhumane and an affront to human dignity .

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #23)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:39 AM

25. Says the poster with "seek to understand" in the sig line.

You're being an asshole.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #25)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:52 AM

31. Having and expressing an opinion .....

... on a topic off pubic interest in-house are public form issue note beings any asshole. If you have anything substantive today's say, I would hope that you stop calling names an provide it.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #31)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:53 AM

33. Expressing an opinion doesn't make you an asshole.

Expressing an asshole opinion does.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:26 AM

21. Where's the sick part?

Tragic like a motherfucker, sure. But sick?

Forcing people to do it this way and denying them the option of getting an abortion would be sick. But that's not what happened.

You need to get over yourself and realize this had nothing to do with you.

Pro-choice doesn't mean you get to be pro-one-choice but anti-another-choice.

Either you is or you ain't. You can't be both.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #21)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:37 AM

24. It's sick in my opinion because it's . ...

.... because it's an excersize in self gratification at the expense of another human being. In my opinion, knowing what the result will be, it is inhumaine and an affront to human dignity to subject another to this. And this is especially true when a big dramatic production is made of it with a photographer no less.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #24)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 06:33 PM

53. Simmer down. Dying newborns tend to create "big dramatic" productions, no?

 

I'd not have a photographer personally but whatever. Take a breath.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #24)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 06:38 PM

54. It's also not your choice

The mother, for whatever reason, couldn't bear to terminate. Would you have forced a surgical abortion on her?

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:39 AM

26. IMHO, this is what choice is all about.

It's heartbreaking to read. "Sick" is trying to force others to do what we believe is proper.

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Response to ScreamingMeemie (Reply #26)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:56 AM

34. Yes, expressing opinions about the choices of others . ..

... is an attempt to persuade people too do the right thing. We all do that all the time , especially in a public forum such as DU. I do object today's the word force however. Expressing an opinion and attempting today's persuade is not force.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #34)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:58 AM

35. It says more about the "opinion holder" than it does about the person he/she is judging.

Sorry... not sick and not our business.

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Response to ScreamingMeemie (Reply #35)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 02:59 PM

111. ^^ +1. . . .n/t

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:46 AM

28. What is sick about it

and who are you to judge a grieving parent?

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Response to easttexaslefty (Reply #28)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:40 PM

58. In my opinion, dealing with grief, "moving on", etc. does not justify .....

.... causing another human being, your own child no less, pain and suffering and death. I certainly do believe that such serious consequences deserve thoughtful consideration and may certainly justify judgement.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #58)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:13 AM

95. You're assuming

there was not thoughtful consideration.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:52 AM

32. All I care about is that the baby

does not experience one millisecond of physical pain.

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Response to narnian60 (Reply #32)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:33 PM

69. This, I think, is the salient point. eom.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 12:14 PM

36. I used to call forms and formats of grieving I'm wholly unfamiliar with "sick," too.

 

I used to call forms and formats of grieving I'm wholly unfamiliar with "sick," too. Then I began to listen. After that, I began to observe.

After listening and observing, I finally realized how intolerant, petulant and misdirected my offense was.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 12:35 PM

41. YUo HAve No CLue

What is sick is that you would cast aspersions on someone based on your (In my Opinion, see now that makes it ok) sick and deeply flawed thinking.
Pro-Choice is about the "CHOICE" not your ideas of choice, not your ideas of whom should be allowed to be born, or what resources are wasted on others.
Contemptible is an understatement of what your statement is. Bordering on the line of a mix of Eugenics and Forced Behavior by shaming parents of dead children.

These Choices are deeply individual and are celebrations of life, not death dances. I can also tell you from personal experience that nothing will prepare these parents for the end. One second and every second of that Child's life is worth it. How a family deals with it is none of your F-ING BUSINESS.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 01:32 PM

44. I have no problem with this

I have a huge problem with the Government mandating that all infants destined to survive for only a few seconds or minutes after birth have to be carried to term, and removing a woman's right to choose to terminate such a pregnancy on HER OWN TERMS!

Other than that, have at it. If it provided comfort for the parents, then by all means, do what you wish...just don't mandate that everyone in a similar situation has to do the same.

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Response to maxrandb (Reply #44)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:16 PM

65. I'm with you about the right to choose, but ...

... I don't think that providing comfort to the parents justifies putting another human being through pain, suffering and death.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 01:42 PM

46. This makes me extremely angry.

 

My wife and I had to deal with the loss of a baby at 14 weeks. It was heartbreaking. The baby was not growing properly, and the heart beat was deteriorating, but we were told that the baby COULD make it to full term, at possible risk to my wife's health, and NO hope for a life for the child. We decided to end it, and it tears us up to today. I can't imagine how much worse it would have been if we were forced to go through with the birth.

BTW, if that same situation would happen to us here in Indiana, we would have had to potentially face that issue....

Disgusting.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #46)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 02:13 PM

47. The different between Hurt and Pain

My wife and I had a daughter diagnosed with Trisomy-13. Her chance for life was not great but we choose to continue. My tiny little girl did not last the labor because the stress was too great and She died in child birth. She was so beautiful and my wife and I and family members held her, and kissed her. We wrapped her up in her blanket that my wife knitted. Bathed and Dressed her for her Funeral.
I know now what pain is. You could stab me, shot me, or burn me with hot metal, and I know that this will only hurt me.
Holding my tiny Daughters little body staring into her beautiful face and know that She was dead will echo in my Soul until I am dead.
That is pain, but for my Daughter no matter what, she is worth it.

My you have peace in your heart someday.

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #47)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 04:24 PM

49. I'm am so glad you found that peace.

 

I do not mean to say nobody should do this, if they choose too. In fact, in circumstances such as yours, as sad as it is, there is a certain cathartic beauty to it too.

For us, the risk would have been big. The doctor said there was a less than 10% of even making it full term. It was hard, but we decided to end it early.

I wish you the very best!

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #49)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:18 AM

102. Both of you made the choice that

was better for your family.

I'm so sorry for your loss. It is such a terrible thing to have to go through.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 03:01 PM

48. So that's what Rick Santorum is up to these days!

 

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:37 PM

57. It's not sick. I'm a L&D nurse. Some parents want this.

Look, not every mother that finds her baby has a diagnosis that is incompatible with life chooses abortion. Some choose to carry as far as they safely can in the pregnancy, and view it as precious time spent with their baby. Having spent almost 20 years at the bedside, and having delivered and participated in the deliveries of more stillbirths and/or dying babies than I care to discuss, I assure you, this is not "sick." It is something that the parents NEED to process their grief, and it is their damned choice. I respect their choice to do that just as I respect the choice of the parents who choose termination.

I have never had to hear those awful words that my baby could not live outside of my body and would die at birth. I have never had to make that heartwrenching decision. I will not pass judgment on those who have.

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #57)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:55 PM

61. You certianly have much more experience and knowledge of these situations...

... than I will ever have. What bothers me about the situation is the notion that the "NEED to process grief" and "precious time spent" justify subjecting another human being to unnecessary pain, suffering and assured death. Given your experience, I'm sure that, as some above have related, you have witnessed the suffering of these children in the few moments or days of their short lives.

Why is the focus and the concern entirely on the "grieving parents" and not on the pain and suffering they are putting another human being through? Why is it wrong to pass judgement on what (in my own personal opinion) is an act of self gratification carried out at the expense of another?

Although I am not a religious person, in a sense their choice may indeed be "dammed".

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #61)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:01 PM

62. Do you think we DON'T focus on comfort care for the baby at all? Seriously??

If the child has a terminal diagnosis, pain control and comfort for the child is ABSOLUTELY discussed. These parents don't want to see their baby suffer, not at all. The baby is kept warm, is held, is comforted, and given medication for pain and comfort if the parents ask. Mothers can even attempt to nurse their babies if they want in some cases.

Watching a baby die is horrendous in and of itself, but let me tell you....having witnessed quite a few babies die alone, and babies that die in the arms of their parents, trust me, the latter is the humane choice.

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #62)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:25 PM

66. I don't believe that "pain management" justifies what, in my opinion, is...

... an act of self gratification at the expense of another human being. It simply adds to the indignity of being used as a vehicle for "processing grief", something that an adult should be able to handle without causing undue harm to others. It is, in my opinion, inhumane to use another human being in this way, and an affront to human dignity.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #66)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:33 PM

68. Okee dokee, we are at an impasse here.

Sort of like trying to explain labor to a woman who's never been through it, or parenthood to the childless, etc., ad nauseum. You are certainly entitled to your opinions.

I will leave you with this: a little kindness, humility, and understanding gets you much further in this life than smug judgment. You never know when you will be the one who is down and out and in need of that kindness and understanding. That's all I'm saying. *shrug*

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #68)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:36 PM

71. Thanks for your insights....

... understanding an issue from someone who has first hand experience is always valuable.

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #62)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 08:57 AM

108. ...

Thank you for the caring, compassionate work you do.

As others have said in this thread, those of us who have experienced this are forever grateful for the compassion and support provided by those involved in the process.

I have tremendous gratitude and respect for you and your colleagues.




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Response to Butterbean (Reply #57)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 01:35 AM

93. I have long that, while most times your job must be very rewarding,

at other times, it must be near crippling. Thank you for all that you do.

One of my fondest memories after the birth of my son was the nurses who had seen us through our losses come to visit and share in our immense joy after shedding tears with us over our losses. May life always shine kindly on you.

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #57)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:37 AM

103. Thank you

seriously, the nurses in L&D were the only thing that kept me managing to function those first few days after our loss, they were the ones who encouraged us to hold our girl and made sure that her picture was taken and so many other things were done that we would never have thought of.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:45 PM

60. By the way, as for the photographer, that's a service a lot of hospitals offer for FREE.

Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep is a nonprofit organization that does this for parents at the end of life with their children. They are wonderful.

https://www.nowilaymedowntosleep.org/

You keep saying what you would or wouldn't do if it was you in that situation. I can tell you right now, that until you are ACTUALLY IN that situation, you cannot say for certain what you'd do. Hopefully nobody ever judges you at your lowest, most painful point like you judge these parents.

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #60)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:08 PM

63. I personally don't believe that memorializing...

... the pain, suffering and death of another human being by photographing them in their last moments of life is a wise decision.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #63)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:12 PM

64. A lot of people don't at the time.

However, there are mothers who come back for those pictures years later, even decades later. We save them, because most of the time, they come back. Those pictures are all they have of their babies. It's not something they can just "get over." It's a deep loss and an ache that stays with them. The pictures are more concrete than memories. When they look at their babies, they don't see a dead baby, they see their child.

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #64)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:31 PM

67. Thanks for your insights on this issue....

.... its valuable to have someone with first hand experience speak up. As you may guess, I remain unconvinced, and genuinely believe that this is unjustified by feelings of loss, and perhaps self-pity. But I do appreciate the views of those who deal with the issue directly.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #67)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:35 PM

70. No problem. It saddens me that you find it so repulsive.

Not everyone processes death the same way. All cultures have death rituals, some that would seem quite bizarre to outsiders. It doesn't make them any less or barbaric or gross or whatever. It's just how people process death and grief. It's being human.

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #70)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:41 PM

72. Well, I thought we were at an impass...

... and I believe that is so. As a parting thought, I would like to point out that my focus is not on "processing death", its on being subjected to death. I simply do not believe that the emphasis should be on the "grieving parents". It should be on the child who is being used by the parents as a means to an end, rather than being treated as end in and of itself.

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #70)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:24 PM

75. It is not a Death Dance

It is the Celebration of life. I have read your posts and know that you understand this. This other poster is either trolling or is being purposefully ignorant of facts. Their tag line is seek to understand..., but faced with evidence of what it really is about, not to mention that it is none of their business. They chose to act like God and supposedly speak for all the unborn children.
What is sick is their pathology of their opinion that we all who have lived it, do not measure up to the purity test that they have manufactured.
All life is a death sentence. All Childbirth involves pain for all. All life is subject to hardships and pain. Just because a child is diagnosed with a life threatening disease this person would just erase them from existence and memory to fit some warped sense of superiority.
The worst kind of hubris there is.

Thank you for what you do. It is needed and words cannot say how valuable it is. What was shown to my wife and myself when our Daughter died in labor by the truly professional and caring medical staff will always be remembered by us. I cannot imagine experiencing as many tragically lost children as you have. You have my utmost respect and thanks.

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #75)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:35 PM

81. Thank you for this and I'm so sorry you went through that, but glad you had kind nurses. n/t

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #75)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:41 AM

104. Our first died during labor as well

So sorry for your loss.

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #64)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:23 PM

74. I treasure the pictures of my son...

I was 40 weeks, full term. Perfect pregnancy. No movement for a day so I went in for an ultrasound to make sure all was well. It wasn't -- there was no heartbeat.

Two days later labor was induced. At some point during those two days I was mortified when it was suggested we take pictures of the baby.

But I am so very, very, very, very grateful that we did. Indeed, it is all we have of Joshua. That and a lock of his hair.

While I am incredibly grateful he didn't suffer, there is no way I can even conceive of standing in judgment of the family in the article as the OP did.

As for Reactionary's consistent insults about making such a "big fuss" and whatever he (are you a he?) said upthread, it's nauseating.

You should be ashamed of your comments judging what is perhaps the worst tragedy a human can experience: the loss of a child.

Fuck you. (Anyone on here who knows me knows I don't say that to people but this poster is deserving of a heartfelt FUCK YOU.)



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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #74)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:32 PM

78. +100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

I also thought about saying something so over the top(almost in line with the posters opinion) that it would get sent to a jury so that even more people would see this vile post and hammer them.

My wife and I have pictures of our Daughter, along with casts of her feet and hands.


May your son Joshua's smile warm you on your tough days.

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #78)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:34 PM

80. Hugs to you and your wife.

We nurses take those pictures and casts very seriously. We really do take a lot of time choosing the gowns and taking the pictures because we know what they mean to the parents. I'm very sorry for your loss.

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #78)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 01:27 AM

91. It is (in my opinion) one of the most painful events a person/couple has to endure...

I am so sorry for your loss, and I'm glad you have those memories.

for your dear daughter...

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #78)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:23 AM

97. ...



I have no more words, just

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #74)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:33 PM

79. I am so sorry for the loss of your son, your baby Joshua. N/t

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #74)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:53 AM

88. I'm the oldest sibling, and I am the one who remembers my mother's miscarriages and stillbirth...

The miscarriages were too early to do anything but cause hemorrhaging, but the stillbirth was like yours: full-term, lively baby, then nothing. Mom never forgot and part of her never stopped grieving. All we know is that he was a redheaded boy and she named him David.

I wish for her sake she could have had even a lock of hair, but such memorials went entirely against her belief-system back there in 1952.

Be at ease. Pay no heed to ignorance that refuses to learn.



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Response to Hekate (Reply #88)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 01:29 AM

92. As a child, that must have been so hard for you.

I have a Valentine's Day card from my daughter from back when we lost ours, and all it says is,"Please don't cry anymore mommy..."

I am so sorry for your family's loss.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #88)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:27 AM

98. Thank you, Hekate...

That must have been so painful to bear witness to that as a child. When parents lose a child, I have such compassion for the remaining (or coming) children. The grief can't be hidden and erupts unexpectedly even decades later, and the children are inevitably impacted in one way or another. I have certainly tried to be mindful of that with my daughter.

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #74)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 01:26 AM

90. I am so sorry you had to read this kind of stuff, here, of all places.

We are such a changed site.



for Joshua...

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Response to ScreamingMeemie (Reply #90)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 11:05 AM

109. ...

to you as well.

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Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #74)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:37 AM

94. I'm a he...

.... and I think you have missed my point. I don't think it is right to cause another human being, the unfortunate child who will die in pain and suffering, to go through such an experience for the sake of "processing grief" or as an aid towards "moving on".

This is self indugent at the expense of another human being's suffering, a suffering that could have been avoided, but was deliberately imposed on the child.

While I don't like using this kind of language in a discussion of this sort, you might consider the possibility that your "fuck you" is directed not at me, but towards an innocent child which was forced to endure a terrible death simply to gratify the emotional concerns of others.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #94)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:14 AM

96. No, read what I wrote again...

Last edited Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:06 AM - Edit history (1)

I said that, with regard to the article you originally posted, I cannot conceive of standing in judgment of that couple -- something you had no problem doing. However, that's why we have choices in these matters.

What the FUCK YOU was about, were your cavalier comments peppered throughout this thread mocking the process of taking pictures of a dying or dead infant. You seemed to vacillate between the specific situation in the OP -- and decisions not to abort -- versus the general process of taking pictures and even celebrating the birth of a dead or dying infant as to what you find so sick, sick, sick.

My fuck you is aimed at the latter.



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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #94)


Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #74)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 08:01 AM

106. So sorry for your loss

And you stated how I feel perfectly in your last three paragraphs.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #106)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 08:39 AM

107. ...

Thank you.

I see you have experienced such a loss, Bettie. I am sorry for your suffering as well. It's one of those tragic clubs people never imagine belonging to.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #63)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:25 PM

76. As the mother of 2 preemies who were in the NICU,

(One for 4 months and the other for just 1 month), I saw many grieving parents whose baby lost their battle days or even weeks after birth. And yes they had a photographer take a photo because it was often the only photo they would have of their beloved child without the wires and tubes that are part of life in the NICU.

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Response to EllieBC (Reply #76)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:36 PM

82. Yes, one of my friends worked PICU and they go there as well.

Their service is a blessing, and I'm so glad we have it to offer.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:28 AM

85. For 170 years photographers have helped grieving families...

... with photos of an infant who has just died, posed in the cradle or sometimes in its mother's arms. "He looks as if he is only sleeping," used to be a real saying among the newly bereaved. Infant mortality used to be very high, and if the family could afford it and if there was a photographer not too far away, they might be able to have something to remember their child by aside from a lock of hair.

Having seen Daguerrotypes of such infants and their families, I have already thought about it. I see nothing "sick" about the practice -- simply something to help grieving parents get through.

It fell out of favor in the 20th century, I think because infant mortality dropped tremendously with the advent of vaccinations and better sanitation. A pregnancy that ended before the fetus was viable was simply a miscarriage.

Strange that in the 21st century, as we have become accustomed to believing our children will be 100% medically safe and that even micropreemies might be able to survive, that this old practice has re-emerged.

Safe journey little ones. May your rebirth be better.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:38 AM

99. I agree, it is in poor taste to disparage how others deal with death.

 

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:04 AM

100. We lost our first child at birth

nearly 18 years ago. I'd give anything to have held her while she was breathing, even just for a second.

Since then, I've met many, many other families who have experienced so many different kinds of losses.

I can think, offhand of three couples facing Trisomy 18. One terminated, two continued their pregnancies, each of them did what they thought was right and did the best they could. None of the three regretted their choices, because it was right for them. Of the two who continued, one couple's daughter was stillborn, but they had photographs taken that they treasure and their oldest child got to see her sister. The other couple's son was born alive and lived for several hours.

All three families grieved deeply, all three are forever changed.

I'm trying to work out what you think is sick.

Forcing a family to terminate or carry to term is not right, but having a hospice program available is a good thing.

There was a time when a baby who died was just whisked away, never seen or held by the parents.

In the end, I'm saying you shouldn't be so quick to judge a situation you've never been in. Losing a child changes you fundamentally.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 02:48 PM

110. My neighbor had a baby born too early to live and was probably one of these babies.

She was born at 29 weeks and never came home from the NICU. Her parents started a fund in our community foundation to give a space for parents and family members who need privacy and time with their infant. They have been able to start funds in other community foundations around the country for these spaces.

My neighbors are devout Catholics and I respect their feelings. They are the nicest people you would ever want to meet. They were able to have another daughter and she and her older brother are as kind and nice as their parents.

I cannot imagine the pain of losing a much wanted child. I cannot judge.

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Response to reACTIONary (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 03:15 PM

112. Did you really read the article?

The only thing sick about any of this is the push for state-mandated counseling.
That is the only problem I have.

In the mean time, this is about choice, and I am getting the feeling you don't really like choice.

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