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Mon Apr 18, 2016, 06:32 PM

Switzerland to recognise homeopathy as legitimate medicine

"The interior ministry has announced plans to give five complementary therapies including homeopathy the same status as conventional medicine.

"Homeopathy, holistic medicine, herbal medicine, acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine will acquire the same status as conventional medicine by May 2017 when it comes to health insurance..."

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/complementary-therapies_swiss-to-recognise-homeopathy-as-legitimate-medicine/42053830

This factual news about the informed, free-will decision of the educated and discerning people of Switzerland will - pundits speculate - stimulate the ongoing systemactic, regularly scheduled barrage of Homeopathy Hippie Punching, Inc.

Please fling all umbrage, bile and wild-eyed accusations of alleged STUPIDITY at the people of Switzerland. I'm just reporting on their informed, discerning decision.


Please note while TRUMPeters will allege that Switzerland is STUPID, that is a stupid accusation. Switzerland ranks 8th for most informed and educated people, while the US is ranked way down the list at 28th.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/global-school-rankings-interactive-map-shows-standards-of-education-across-the-world-10247405.html

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Reply Switzerland to recognise homeopathy as legitimate medicine (Original post)
AxionExcel Apr 2016 OP
MinnieBlum Apr 2016 #1
jberryhill Apr 2016 #2
Wilms Apr 2016 #27
womanofthehills Apr 2016 #3
MattBaggins Apr 2016 #4
womanofthehills Apr 2016 #5
MattBaggins Apr 2016 #7
pnwmom Apr 2016 #14
muriel_volestrangler Apr 2016 #21
HuckleB Apr 2016 #22
Drahthaardogs Apr 2016 #32
MattBaggins Apr 2016 #46
Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #62
lagomorph777 Apr 2016 #92
COLGATE4 Apr 2016 #229
womanofthehills Apr 2016 #15
EvolveOrConvolve Apr 2016 #50
D Gary Grady Apr 2016 #84
X_Digger Apr 2016 #149
COLGATE4 Apr 2016 #230
TransitJohn Apr 2016 #89
truedelphi Apr 2016 #127
Drahthaardogs Apr 2016 #36
Humanist_Activist Apr 2016 #59
womanofthehills Apr 2016 #69
HuckleB Apr 2016 #72
womanofthehills Apr 2016 #176
HuckleB Apr 2016 #187
womanofthehills Apr 2016 #212
HuckleB Apr 2016 #218
Warren DeMontague Apr 2016 #61
X_Digger Apr 2016 #148
AxionExcel Apr 2016 #8
MattBaggins Apr 2016 #11
snooper2 Apr 2016 #67
Heidi Apr 2016 #93
HuckleB Apr 2016 #96
Heidi Apr 2016 #97
leftyladyfrommo Apr 2016 #6
elljay Apr 2016 #12
womanofthehills Apr 2016 #18
Peregrine Took Apr 2016 #29
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MattBaggins Apr 2016 #45
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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 06:57 PM

1. Swiss health care

Having lived for many years in Switzerland, many alternative medical treatments have always been covered by some insurance policies.

Obamacare is based on Romneycare which was basically a reinterpretation of the Swiss system of private health care. In Switzerland, every resident from birth (or from arrival in the country) must purchase private health insurance. If a resident is financially incapable (and the Swiss really mean financially incapable, not unwilling to part with the money), the Cantonal governments can subsidize part or all of the insurance coverage.

Health insurance is expensive unless your employer pays for it of course (which is very, very rare in Switzerland). And if you want coverage for alternative medicines, that's even more expensive. There is no Medicare system as there is here, so elderly people (unless they are indigent) still have to pay high premiums.

Health care is excellent though, ranking among the best in the world. I had a 25 year old part-time employee, a girl from Texas. She was doing her master's degree at the Interpreter's School in Geneva. She complained bitterly about being obliged to purchase healthcare as her mother's US policy no longer covered her and, in any case, the Swiss don't accept foreign policies for people who are resident in Switzerland.

She was diagnosed a few months after she had arrived with Stage IV renal cell carcinoma which has a prognosis of 6 months to live. A kidney had to be removed. Then brain surgery to remove tumors. Further brain surgery to remove tumors. Gall bladder surgery. She was in and out of the hospital over a 2 year period and taking a medication which cost $7K a month as chemo does not work with renal cell carcinoma. She lived for more than 3 years despite the initial estimate of 6 months. She couldn't return to the States because she had no health insurance there and her Swiss coverage didn't extend to the US.

Despite the fact it must have been obvious to her physicians her case was hopeless, they spared no effort and no expense in trying desperately to save her life. She must have racked up millions of dollars in hospital bills alone.

So much for "death panels".

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:09 PM

2. Are they voting on gravity next?

 


With all of those mountains, I'd expect them to vote against gravity.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:51 PM

27. The evidence would favor them at the higher elevations.

 

I could see them arguing for a reduction of the force referenced as 1G.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:15 PM

3. Univ of NM school of medicine complimentary therapy - we are so advanced out here!

The Section of Integrative Medicine at the University of New Mexico Health Sciences Center offers alternative and complementary therapies in acupuncture, Ayurvedic medicine, botanical medicine, chiropractic, curanderismo, energy medicine, homeopathy, massage therapy, mind–body medicine, and Native American healing traditions.

The Section provides education to members of the UNM HSC, in medical student lectures, clinics with residents, and grand rounds in family practice and internal medicine. The Section is working to include integrative medicine in the School of Medicine curriculum and has a collection of textbooks, papers, and journals in integrative medicine.

The Section is actively engaged in several research projects, including medical student projects on student and faculty attitudes toward integrative medicine, complementary and alternative medicine therapies for arthritis, and issues concerning integrative medicine use in primary care clinics in New Mexico.


http://medicine.unm.edu/education/integrative/index.html

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:15 PM

4. There is no woo you won't push is there

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #4)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:21 PM

5. Interesting medical schools do not think homopathy is woo

you have probably never tried any alternative therapies.

My allergy doctor affiliated with one of the largest hospitals in NM - god forbid - actually treats allergies with homeopathy - and it works - I am cured!



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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #5)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:24 PM

7. Bullshit

Homeopathy is pure and absolute nonsense. It has zero scientific basis. In fact the claims of how it works violate basic principles of science.


You were not cured by homeopathy. Such a claim is utter hogwash.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:39 PM

14. How are allergy shots given by MD's essentially different from homeopathy? You just told a woman

that her allergy shots don't work.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:48 PM

21. Homeopathic 'treatments' are distilled water

They do not contain any other ingredients (or, in pill form, they're just the filler for a pill - no active ingredient). That's how allergy shots differ - they actually contain something.

What the woman above received was a placebo. It's designed to fool her into thinking she's been treated, and to get money for that. It's an excellent way of making a living - charging for nothing - but unethical.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:01 PM

32. Are you serious?

You really do not know the difference between an allergy shot and homeopathy? You think they are equivalent?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:29 PM

46. FFS please basic medicine

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:01 PM

62. Do you know what homeopathy is?

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #62)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:31 PM

92. Homeopathy is a mathematical misconception

that if you repeatedly divide (dilute) a solution of some toxin, eventually the concentration of the toxin will become negative. Apparently the confusion is between division and subtraction.

“Homeopaths argue that water has a memory.” ― Scarlett Thomas, The End of Mr. Y

“Occult Medicine is essentially sympathetic. Reciprocal affection, or at least real goodwill, must exist between doctor and patient. Syrups and juleps have very little inherent virtue; they are what they become through the mutual opinion of operator and subject; hence homoeopathic medicine dispenses with them and no serious inconvenience follows.”
― Éliphas Lévi, Transcendental Magic: Its Doctrine and Ritual

http://www.1023.org.uk/what-is-homeopathy.php

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #14)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:25 PM

229. Because allergy shots have a demonstrable scientifically proveable

relation to treating allergies. Water, whether drunk, taken in tablets or pills or injected does not.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:39 PM

15. Have you ever tried it?

I bet you have not.


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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #15)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:37 PM

50. As a human being, I suspect he's drank water before

It doesn't cure cancer or AIDS or the Zika virus. Although it's good at slaking thirst, if you have enough of it.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #15)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:51 AM

84. Well, I have

I bought something over the counter for an earache at a drugstore and didn't even notice it was homeopathic until after I'd tried it. As it happened, my earache didn't get better, but that proves nothing. Illnesses get better or worse for a variety of reasons, and in an individual case it's hard to be sure of the cause.

It makes more sense to test drugs in a way that takes into account the fact that various things, even our own positive and negative expectations, can throw off the results. Unfortunately, on the rare occasions that homeopathic remedies are tested that way, they don't do very well.

Many people think that homeopathy has something to do with natural remedies, but it's actually something invented in the late 1700s based only theory and possibly an erroneous guess about how inoculation worked. The theory is that (1) somehow "like cures like" (illnesses can be treated by substances that cause the same symptoms), (2) high dilutions make a drug more effective (homeopathic dilutions are often so extreme that literally none of the original substance is found in a given dose), and (3) the underlying disease is irrelevant; just treat the symptoms (even though very different diseases can produce almost identical symptoms, such as hemorrhagic and ischemic stroke).

If homeopathy really worked, we'd all be taking homeopathic medicine all the time every time we eat or drink something with water in it. All water has been through a vapor phase then had something diluted in it that was then naturally percussed and re-diluted multiple times.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #15)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 10:25 PM

149. If homeopathy worked, I'd be high right now from drinking water from my tap.

It's 1,000,000,000x diluted with cocaine, opioids, bong water, and every damned chemical that will otherwise bake, fry, or torque your brain.

(According to homeopathic *cough* "theory" the more something is diluted, the stronger it is.)

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #15)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:26 PM

230. Anecdotal evidence is not any kind of evidence.

Read up about 'placebo effect'. Some people get better because they believe what they are doing makes them better. Doesn't mean that what they did works for a general population.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 11:12 AM

89. Just try teach someone to do the stoichiometric calculations of the concentration

of the solute in homeopathic remedies, and they'll see that there are zero molecules in solution. Then they're reduced to 'water memory' or other woo. It's like no one took chemistry in high school.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:15 PM

127. Most people living in the modern age are unaware of the fact that it was the

Homeopathic doctors who first insisted on cleanliness and hygiene, some 75 years before Lister came on the scene.

I can't think of any homeopathic remedies I have even tried, but several elderly clients I had loved this or that homeopathic remedy. I never understand why people can't embrace alternatives - the homeopathic community certainly doesn't have the tremendously upsetting record of all these new medicines, which might relieve a person of their arthritis pain or psoriasis but cause stroke, paralysis, asphyxiation and even death. And these prescription meds can cost a small fortune to boot, while doing you in!

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #5)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:05 PM

36. I guarantee you he does not and still keep his license and credentials.

I doubt very seriously you were "cured". There is no cure for allergies known today.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #5)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:51 PM

59. I call bullshit, what were you allergic too?

 

Even more importantly, how severe was the reaction, and how long between reactions and when you got treated.

Allergies can actually change over time, you can be allergic to something as a child or young adult, and lose that reaction as you get older, the reverse is also true.

Technically, there is no cure for any allergy.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #59)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:22 PM

69. I was poisoned with old outdated Malathion by the city of Albuquerque

Uneducated city sprayers sprayed our neighborhood for mosquitoes 4 nights in a row from trucks. It came through my screen door while I was sleeping. The whole neighborhood was ill - all the little kids got asthma & big digestive problems including my grand daughter . I got reactive airway disease. The ambulance was always on our block - taking all the little kids to the emergency room. I could not stop salivating 24/7 and could not even enter my house without swaying. In checking the city records, the city had been spraying my neighborhood with various pesticides for yrs, but this was their biggest mistake and the first time they used Malathion. I would awake in the night unable to breathe and when I checked their spraying records - the days always coincided with my trips to the emergency room. The docs at the hospital told me they had so many people come to the hospital with breathing problems when the city was spraying. I actually called the Albuquerque newspaper and my neighborhood story covered almost the entire front page. When I spoke with the men who did the spraying, they said it was some old malathion they found in the shed that they were using. Malathion gets way more toxic when it's old and warm.

After that I could not leave my house for a year or barely eat - I became extremely allergic or intolerant to everything -Bronchospasm is scary because you always think you are about to die. I was diagnosed with environmental illness caused by pesticide exposure and had to go on disability. I would get bronchospasm from car exhaust, smoke, paint fumes, sulfur vegetables just cooking on the stove, perfume, etc. I could not even read the newspaper because the ink bothered me. The docs at the local hospital recommended a dr in Los Alamos, NM who was a childrens allergy specialist and also had success with adults diagnosed with environmental illness. She helped me big time and part of her treatment was testing me for all the chemicals and foods I was reacting to and treating me with desensitizing homeopathic allergy drops.

I now live in a very rural area which I think really helped me too - no car exhaust, industry, farming. I would say I am about 95% recovered but still avoid certain foods and smelly items. My boyfriend helped me build an environmentally friendly house .

I know there is a difference between food allergy and food intolerance. I know I had a food allergy to nuts and shrimp but a food intolerance to other foods. For one year I only ate bananas, oranges and yogurt. If I ate anything else I would cough for a hour or two or my throat would start closing. Now I can eat most anything but I only eat fresh organic food. I can go into most stores but if I start smelling something, I know to leave immediately.

I am Facebook friends with some of the kids who had asthma in my old neighborhood and three of them still have occasional problems with asthma. It was a small dead end block with only 8 houses so the percent of people who became ill was high. The problem was that our block dead ended by the ditch and river and the city heavily sprayed that area without reporting they were going to spray.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #69)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:31 PM

72. No, you weren't.

Last edited Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:03 AM - Edit history (1)

You seem to think that you can make things up in order to justify the promotion of unethical BS.

That's not ok. The reality is that you are making implausible claims with no evidence to support them. And that includes supporting the completely debunked nonsense of homeopathy.

It's time to stop.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #72)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:08 AM

176. So you think being sprayed with Malathion

does not make someone very sick?

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #176)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:56 PM

187. You have no credibility.

You have repeatedly posted ludicrous claims that were easily debunked. Your anecdote is not worth the time of day. Try again.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #187)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:35 PM

212. Actually, I believe you have no credibility

You hate any type of alternative medicine. You are pro GMO's, pesticides and Monsanto. Many of your posts are very rude.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #212)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:31 PM

218. You have no basis for any of your beliefs.

Nice try.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #5)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:00 PM

61. Its not an "alternative therapy", its bullshit. Water does not have magic memory properties.

An herbal remedy, for instance, makes scientific sense. Asprin was once willow bark, for instance.


But diluting something 10 million times with water, all you end up with is water.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 10:22 PM

148. It's fucking water. Do you actually understand what homeopathy is?

I don't care if you do a traditional rain dance, and then when it rains, take credit-- the fact that you're 'cured' doesn't mean that the treatment had anything to do with it.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #4)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:26 PM

8. Please direct your poutrage to the highly educated people of Switzerland

I'm not promoting anything. I'm reporting a fact: Switzerland is recognizing homeopathy as a legitimate modality of healing.

You are free to hate facts. But please, for the sake of accuracy, direct your rage at the 8.2 million highly educated people of Switzerland.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #8)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:33 PM

11. Clever by half

Many insurers are pushing for bullshit quack practices to be allowed. It is far cheaper to give someone a vial of water than it is to send them to a real doctor.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #8)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:02 PM

67. Yeah, but 87.4% of the Swiss can't change their own tire

 

and 34% actually believe in chem trails- Being good at History doesn't count LOL

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #67)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 01:38 PM

93. Could you cite your source(s) on those claims?

I only ask because I've lived in Switzerland for more than 15 years, am married to a Swiss man, and don't know anyone of driving age who can't change a tire or anyone at all who believes in chemtrails. I do know a handful of Swiss people who believe in homeopathy (which my husband and I believe is absolute bunk in every respect except for a possible placebo effect).

Please cite your sources.

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Response to Heidi (Reply #93)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 02:29 PM

96. I believe the sources are based in humor.

And that makes sense on an OP promoting a fiction-based "treatment," that can only be laughed at, uh, except when it's pushed as a treatment for real world diseases.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #96)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 03:25 PM

97. Thank you.

I agree with your assessment of the OP.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:22 PM

6. I think alternative medicine is much bigger in Europe

than it is here .

I never had any luck with homeopathy. I tried a few times and it did nothing for me.

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Response to leftyladyfrommo (Reply #6)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:44 PM

18. Nox Vomica is one I always have on hand

it will stop nausea instantly for me.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #18)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:53 PM

29. I have good luck with cantharsis for painful bladder syndrome aka

interstitial cystitis.

Homeopathy is subtle - definitely takes much longer to notice improvement but it happens and there are no side effects that I ever found.

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Response to Peregrine Took (Reply #29)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:22 PM

40. Thanks for that info

as I have had interstitial cystitis in the past.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #18)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:28 PM

45. Bologna

cures hunger for many

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #18)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:08 AM

175. Do you mean Nux Vomica?

 

Or is Nox Vomica a solution of water with no Nux Vomica in it?

Here is what WebMD thinks of Nux Vomica.

Nux vomica is UNSAFE. Taking nux vomica for more than a week, or in high amounts of 30 mg or more, can cause severe side effects. Some of these side effects include restlessness, anxiety, dizziness, neck and back stiffness, spasms of jaw and neck muscles, convulsions, seizures, breathing problems, liver failure, and death.
Special Precautions & Warnings:
No one should take nux vomica, but certain people are especially at risk for toxic side effects. These side effects are especially dangerous if you have any of the following conditions:

Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Taking nux vomica can harm both mother and child. Don’t use it.

Liver disease: The strychnine in nux vomica can cause liver damage or make liver disease worse. Don’t use it.

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Response to leftyladyfrommo (Reply #6)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:59 PM

66. they also DON'T have creationists dominating the schools or people saying they can

cut all the trees and fill up the air since Jesus is coming, look busy

the configurations really are different country by country

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Response to MisterP (Reply #66)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:23 PM

70. Have you been to Europe?

The forests are not doing so well.

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Response to leftyladyfrommo (Reply #6)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:52 PM

215. Also - Europe has way less additives in their food

http://ensia.com/features/banned-in-europe-safe-in-the-u-s/

Other countries don't let the companies do the testing.

While FDA approval is required for food additives, the agency relies on studies performed by the companies seeking approval of chemicals they manufacture or want to use in making determinations about food additive safety, Natural Resources Defense Council senior scientist Maricel Maffini and NRDC senior attorney Tom Neltner note in their April 2014 report, Generally Recognized as Secret. “No other developed country that we know of has a similar system in which companies can decide the safety of chemicals put directly into food,” says Maffini. The standing law that covers these substances — the 1958 Food Additives Amendment to the 1938 Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act — “makes requiring testing [of chemicals] more cumbersome than under TSCA,” says Neltner.


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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:28 PM

9. Mayo Clinic has a complimentary and integrative program

The Complementary and Integrative Medicine Program was founded in July 2001 as a program within the Department of Medicine at Mayo Clinic. The Complementary and Integrative Medicine Program was specifically created to help address the ever increasing patient interest in wellness-promoting activities that have not typically been part of conventional medical care.


http://www.mayo.edu/research/centers-programs/complementary-integrative-medicine/complementary-integrative-medicine-program/overview

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:39 PM

51. Is the Mayo Clinic doing homeopathy in their "Complimentary & Integrative" program?

I didn't see anything about homeopathy on that page.

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #51)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:27 PM

71. I don't know but the Univ of NM medical center

offers homeopathy - link earlier in this thread.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #71)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:34 PM

73. Which means you might be paying for BS.

Way to go New Mexico!

Er,,wait....

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:31 PM

10. I hope they insist on meticulous (and independent) patient health checkups

Both pre and post 'treatment'.

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Response to MowCowWhoHow III (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:35 PM

13. They will not

Such systems are to save the insurance companies money.

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Response to MowCowWhoHow III (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:42 PM

16. Did you read the word complimentary

- combining treatments -

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #16)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:45 PM

19. So? You can't have too much data.

Are you worried about data collection?

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #16)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:44 PM

53. No.

com·pli·men·ta·ry
ˌkämpləˈmen(t)ərē,ˌkämpləˈmentrē/
adjective
adjective: complimentary

1.
expressing a compliment; praising or approving.
"Jennie was very complimentary about Kathy's riding"
synonyms: flattering, appreciative, congratulatory, admiring, approving, commendatory, favorable, glowing, adulatory; informalrave
"complimentary remarks"
antonyms: derogatory
2.
given or supplied free of charge.
"a complimentary bottle of wine"






com·ple·men·ta·ry
ˌkämpləˈment (? rē/
adjective
adjective: complementary

1.
combining in such a way as to enhance or emphasize the qualities of each other or another.
"three guitarists playing interlocking, complementary parts"
synonyms: harmonious, compatible, corresponding, matching, twin; More
supportive, reciprocal, interdependent
"decorating in complementary colors and patterns"
antonyms: incompatible
Biochemistry
(of gene sequences, nucleotides, etc.) related by the rules of base pairing.
2.
of or relating to complementary medicine.
"complementary therapies such as aromatherapy"

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Response to Ptah (Reply #53)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 01:49 PM

94. THANK YOU!! That was driving me nucking futs.

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Response to Ptah (Reply #53)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 03:30 PM

98. +1,000 ... 000

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #16)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:30 PM

231. In other words they give them recognized medical treatments

and also let them drink water? Got it.

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Response to MowCowWhoHow III (Reply #10)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:49 PM

25. It says they've given up trying to show it works in any way, but are still going to pay for it

They're gullible.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:42 PM

17. The swiss should be called out

but you have zero interest in actual science so this will be wasted

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-swiss-report-on-homeopathy/

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:46 PM

20. That sciencebasedmedicine link is a joke

You guys always pull up that site.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #20)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:49 PM

24. It's an accurate site.

The fact that you can't debunk anything on it with actual science shows that. The fact that some can't see that Integrative Therapy is a way to make money off patients despite a lack of evidence supporting its use is a bit astounding to see at DU.

BTW, the OP has misrepresented the reality of homeopathy in Switzerland.
http://www.smw.ch/content/smw-2012-13594/

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #20)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:07 AM

159. Sure, and Food Babe is the gold standard, right?

"There is just no acceptable level of any chemical to ingest, ever."
-- Vani Hari, a.k.a. The Food Babe

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #159)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:39 PM

169. I really have no desire to ingest chemicals & pesticides

A chemical here - A chemical there - it all adds up. Then add to that air quality and auto exhaust - it's endless. You gotta love The Food Babe - she is taking on all the corporations. Do we really need bromate, human antiobiotics, sulfur dioxide, BHA, BHT, sodium nitrate, sodium sulfite, food dyes, msg, high fructose corn syrup, articifical sweeteners, propyl gallate, butane, carrageenan, polysorbate to, etc. in our food.

Changes the Food Industry made because of The Food Babe:

http://foodbabe.com/2016/01/01/the-exciting-changes-the-food-industry-made-in-2015-because-of-us/

General Mills and Kellogs dumping BHT in their cereals

Hershey's & Nestles removing artificial colors and favors and Hershey's chocolate - no more GMO's, rBST, vanillin etc .

McDonalds & Cosco & Pilgrim Pride & Tyson- will stop using chickens that were treated with antiobiotics meant for humans

Dunkin' Donuts - removed titanium dioxide from their powdered sugar

Kraft = dumping artificial colors from Mac & Cheese

Chipolte - dumped GMO's

Papa John's Pizza - removing 14 ingredients including, sodium benzoate, hidden MSG, artificial colors et.

the list goes on with Cambells, Starbucks, Subway, Schwans, Guiness Beer, etc. removing chemicals from their food.

I don't understand why you laugh - The Food Babe is pushing companies to serve healthier food.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #169)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:25 PM

172. Everything you ingest is chemicals.

You are chemicals.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #172)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:04 AM

174. Let me clarify that to

toxic chemicals and pesticides.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #174)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 02:46 AM

177. Nearly everything is toxic, at high enough doses, you can even suffer water poisoning...

 

not drowning, but ingest too much water in too short a time and all sorts of effects occur, some of them quite severe(and fatal), such as swelling of the brain.

The key is to make sure the levels of everything you ingest are at safe levels, too much of anything is bad, period.

Oh, and just an FYI, you ingest pesticides every day, most of which are naturally occurring, caffeine is an example of one, and its also more toxic that glyphosate at the same doses.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #177)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:39 PM

213. I don't think glyphosate is naturally occuring

It all adds up you know.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #213)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 05:53 AM

224. Uhm, I'm well aware of that, do you have a point? n/t

 

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #174)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:58 AM

181. Nearly everything you ingest is toxic at some level.

Even the ubiquitous dihydrogen monoxide is lethal if over ingested, and yet it is 100% necessary to sustain life.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #181)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:06 AM

184. The same is true of arsenic

The dose is what makes the poison.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #184)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:19 PM

217. NM has natural arsenic hot water springs

I soak in them twice a year. If I soaked everyday in them I might get too much arsenic in my body.

Same with food. Daily doses of pesticide and glysophate are not for me.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #217)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:19 AM

219. No, it's not the same

For one thing, there's no dermal absorption of glyphosate. For another, glyphosate doesn't bioaccumulate in the body.

Virtually every plant has some level of naturally occurring pesticide, so short of giving up all plant based food sources along with everything that eats plant based food sources your culinary options for not getting a daily dose of pesticide is pretty much limited to eating things like rocks and hubcaps.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #219)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 02:12 AM

256. World Health Organization seems to differ from you

Glyphosate is a possible carcinogen. I never spoke of dermal absorption of glyphosate.

World Health Organization Won’t Back Down From Study Linking Monsanto to Cancer


Aaron Blair, a scientist emeritus at the National Cancer Institute and lead author of the study, told Reuters,“There was sufficient evidence in animals, limited evidence in humans and strong supporting evidence showing DNA mutations and damaged chromosomes.” The WHO’s International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) published their study of glyphosate on March 20, finding that the popular herbicide may contribute to non-hodgkins lymphoma.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/world-health-organization-wont-back-down-from-study-linking-monsanto-to-cancer/5439840

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #256)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 02:15 AM

257. Then the cold hard bite of reality sets in...

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #257)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 02:50 AM

264. Interesting - it's the agency that does cancer research

that won't back down - that tells you something.





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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #264)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 09:21 AM

266. The IARC does not do cancer research, nor do they regulate anything

They also say cell phones, aspirin, coffee, bacon, ethyl alcohol, and shift work causes cancer. How many of those things have you given up?

The EFSA and the EU, which actually does regulate pesticides, says the IARC is full of shit, as does pretty much every agency that regulates pesticides on the planet, the rest of the WHO, and virtually every scientific advocacy organization on the planet.


EFSA and the EU Member States have finalised the re-assessment of glyphosate, a chemical that is used widely in pesticides. The report concludes that glyphosate is unlikely to pose a carcinogenic hazard to humans and proposes a new safety measure that will tighten the control of glyphosate residues in food. The conclusion will be used by the European Commission in deciding whether or not to keep glyphosate on the EU list of approved active substances, and by EU Member States to re-assess the safety of pesticide products containing glyphosate that are used in their territories.

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/151112

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #169)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:00 AM

182. I'm pretty sure you have no other options

The reason why you don't understand why I laugh is because neither food babe or yourself have any idea what "chemical" actually means, while simulateously living in mortal fear of them.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #182)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:43 PM

214. I do know - I almost died from pesticide poisoning

Why do you want so many chemicals in your food? I know there are natural chemicals in food but why do I have to have additives in my food. In Europe, there are far less additives in food than in the usa.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #214)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:35 AM

220. Do you add salt to your food?

If so, why?

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #182)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 02:52 AM

265. Food Babe looks so good - We should all eat what she's eating!!!

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:50 PM

26. NYU Langone medical center has INTEGRATIVE HEALTH too

Most of the teaching medical centers do.


Integrative Health Services


NYU Langone offers integrative health and wellness programs to complement your conventional healthcare. Programs are offered to patients and caregivers, and anyone else in the NYU Langone community.

Integrative health can help you as you prepare for treatment, during your hospital stay, and after discharge. We can help you manage the physical and emotional side effects of your treatment, as well as provide services that help you stay well.

Our services include mind-body bedside care, wellness groups, acupuncture, guided imagery, massage, energy therapies, yoga, and more. Our staff of licensed professionals works with nearly 5,000 people per year, including more than 3,000 through our Mind-Body Patient Bedside Program and more than 400 through the Prepare for Surgery, Heal Faster™ program.


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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 04:08 PM

99. They Have It

because it's the current fad. People want it, they want people. Medicine has been wrong before, although I think if you look closely, they aren't even saying it works, they use weasel language. They know damn well it's bunk.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #26)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:31 PM

232. I don't see homeopathy listed...

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #26)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 01:44 PM

236. ‘Integrated medicine’ is quackery hitting the mainstream

http://health.spectator.co.uk/integrated-medicine-is-quackery-hitting-the-mainstream/

"...

On the basis of these considerations, integrated medicine cannot be much more than a superfluous, misleading and counterproductive distraction. But the most powerful argument against integrated medicine originates from the bogus and often dangerous things that are happening every day in its name.

If we look around us, go on the internet, read the relevant literature, or walk into an integrated medicine clinic, we are sure to find that behind all these politically correct slogans of holism and ‘best of all worlds’ there lurks the face of pure quackery.

...

The message here seems all too obvious: integrated medicine clinics offer a bizarre array of therapies, most of which are not based on anything that might remotely resemble sound evidence.

...

Integrated medicine is little more than a front designed to appear attractive and convincing to consumers, healthcare professionals and policy makers. Anyone looking behind the façade will find boundless amounts of quackery being promoted by a spectrum of people ranging from naïve charlatans, unable to think critically, to irresponsible entrepreneurs, out to make a fast buck."

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:02 PM

33. Yoda would be a supporter of wholistic medicine.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #33)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:46 PM

75. Sure. A fictional character supporting a fictional product.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #75)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 04:27 PM

101. To hate healing and medicine which is older than 5000 years old is simply insane. Modern day

drugs and western medicine is not the end all be all answer for healing. Moreover it's a self-sustaining big profit making industry rather than a true curing and healing system.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #101)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:15 PM

109. 5000 years ago — god made house calls.

 



--imm

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Response to immoderate (Reply #109)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:19 PM

110. God has nothing to do with this.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #110)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:31 PM

112. Who gives the water its memory?

 

Will ya?

--imm

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Response to immoderate (Reply #112)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:54 PM

123. One of the great mysteries of life.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #101)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:01 PM

130. If the "healing" of 5000 years ago was so goddamned effective, how come we live...

 

healthier and better lives, and survive conditions and diseases(some eliminated) that killed our ancestors en mass?

What is this so called "ancient wisdom" that apparently is so great that it didn't greatly effect mortality rates at all?

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #130)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:05 PM

132. Modern society has created many new diseases. Sick people are living longer.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #132)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 05:01 AM

155. Are you saying that sick people should die? In addition, name an illness modern...

 

society has created.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #155)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:38 PM

163. Holy Fuck! I'm not fucking Ben "the disabled should commit suicide" Stien! I have too many

chronic immune diseases to list, but Systemic Lupus almost took my life. So I KNOW WHAT IT IS TO LIVE A LIFE WITH CHRONIC DISEASE! Geezis!

Answer: AIDS, explosion of Cancer and Auto-Immune diseases. Theses diseases have proliferated because of the billionaire industrialists' bad habit of rabidly polluting our air, water, soil. Massive releases of toxic radiation, heavy metals, poisonous chemicals in to our home has turned the earth into one great big polluted sewer and our bodies have not evolved sufficiently to handle the heavy toxic load we are ladened with.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #163)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:30 PM

165. Try Coffee Enemas.

 

eliminates all toxins and negative ions.

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Response to bdwker (Reply #165)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:32 PM

233. But be sure not to use too much cream and sugar

It makes a hell of a mess.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #163)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:37 PM

166. AIDS isn't caused by modern pollution, in addition, cancer rates are down across the board...

 

both diagnoses are down and so is mortality.

Also, the prevalence of autoimmune disorders may be due to the lack of exposure to infectious agents and irritants. Pollution is always a concern, but here's something that's key, none of this justifies advocating quackery to replace effective treatments for disease. Despite this being a "polluted sewer" as you so elegantly called it, we still are living longer and healthier lives than our ancestors.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #166)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:20 PM

168. You do not know with absolute certainty that AIDS or any other disease is not caused by modern

levels of pollution. Sorry but the science on that subject is not there.

How many people living theses long lives are living quality lives?

Please provide me with evidence that cancer rates and AIDS rates in Africa are down.

Please provide me with evidence that proven wholistic therapies are bad.

Otherwise take your silly arguments to someone else.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #168)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:58 PM

173. You require absolute certainty for science, but accept faith for homeopathy?

 

Seems like a double standard.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #168)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 02:54 AM

178. Don't tell me you are an HIV denialist too? Jesus fucking Christ.

 

Fuck yes I can say, with absolute certainty, that AIDS isn't caused by pollution, but by HIV.

As for your second question, why don't you ask them?

As for your third, that's called moving the goal posts, I was referring to the United States, but if you want more detail, here:

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/19/8/1893.full

See if you can read an actual academic journal.

In addition, give an example of a "proven" holistic therapy. Just one. In addition, define what you mean by "holistic".

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #178)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:28 PM

193. Eventually Mike Adam's fans out themselves

When all the buulshit starts to fly in formation, it's just not that difficult to pinpoint where it comes from.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #178)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:11 PM

197. Pollution creates suppressed immune systems giving diseases like AIDS and others a better chance

of taking hold.

Wholistic.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #197)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:29 PM

199. That's interesting

Do you have a link to the studies done on the pollution->AIDS connection? I'd like to read them.

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #199)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:35 PM

200. OMG people, pollution lowers immunity!

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #200)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:43 PM

201. Yes, pollution isn't good for us, and no one here is arguing the opposite

But you made a specific claim about a link between AIDS and pollution and I'd like to see the evidence for it.

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #201)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:03 PM

205. I'm specifically talking about the LOWERING OF IMMUNITY FROM POLLUTION creates an

environment in the body for ANY virus (AIDS is caused by a virus) bacteria, parasite to flourish.



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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #205)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:14 PM

209. HIV is a virus that attacks the immune system, the state of that immune system isn't technically...

 

relevant to whether you are susceptible to contracting the disease or developing symptoms later. There are plenty of viruses and bacteria that our bodies, with a healthy immune system, fight off day in and day out without breaking a sweat, HIV is NOT one of them. While a small minority of people have been able to carry the disease without showing symptoms, such as Magic Johnson, we are still not clear as to why.

In fact, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by memory here, but one of the ways that HIV is so effective when transmitted and able to invade T-cells is that it fools the immune system into not seeing it at all. It also is persistent in that it hides in those cells even when patients take the most powerful antivirals available.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #205)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 07:00 PM

240. And I'm specifically asking for evidence

that there's a connection between AIDS and pollution. You made the connection - I'm just asking for the proof.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #197)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:04 PM

206. Certain pollutants can damage the immune system, but they aren't responsible for AIDS...

 

AIDS is a specific syndrome whose cause is well known, well studied, and a lot of people are working on cures/vaccines for it. Right now we have been able to treat HIV so as to prevent AIDS from manifesting itself through a lifetime cocktail of antivirals that are far too expensive, but whose effectiveness no one can deny.

Indeed, AIDS itself doesn't even kill the person, opportunistic infections/conditions do after the immune system has been suppressed/destroyed by the syndrome itself.

Also, just a note, its holistic. Not sure where the spelling you use comes from.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #206)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:20 PM

210. Spelling Nazi.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #168)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:00 AM

183. "Please provide me with evidence that proven wholistic therapies are bad."

Please provide me with evidence that wholistic therapies are effective.

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Response to cleanhippie (Reply #183)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:12 PM

198. Ask Jesus, he used wholistic healing.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #198)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:06 PM

207. No, Jesus' miracles were, at best, embellishments, at worst, myth making in action...

 

not that its really relevant to the discussion at hand.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #101)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 09:57 PM

145. If it works, fine.

Of course if it works, it's likely been proved to work through proper testing. And then it becomes part of "modern medicine".

No one is claiming western medicine is the be all, end all. But it generally has more proof of efficacy than just anecdotal claims by the people pushing their snake oils.

Also, let's not kid ourselves, "alternative" medicine isn't an altruistic system. It's also a multi-billion dollar industry. The big difference is that it isn't regulated or tested for effectiveness like "modern" medicine is. So in that sense, homeopathy etc., is more dishonorable. It makes claims it can't support with any repeatable proof and preys on the naive and innocent.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #145)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 10:08 PM

146. Nobody preys on people more than the pharmaceutical industry.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #146)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 07:58 AM

157. Hogwash

Promoting remedies that have proven efficacy isn't even in the same ballpark as quackery like homeopathy. The snake oil business is doing better today than it ever has and ranges everything from local Christian "Science" hucksters to big business like Mercola. Much of the worthless garbage is even sold in big name pharmacies. Comparing that level of fleecing to the pharmaceutical industry is comical.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #145)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:07 PM

170. If modern medicine has "proper testing"

What about Vioxx?

Cause for recall:
increased risk of heart attack and stroke; linked to about 27,785 heart attacks or sudden cardiac deaths between May 20, 1999 and 2003.


What about Redux?

30% of patients prescribed the drug had abnormal echocardiograms; 33 cases of rare valvular disease in women; 66 additional reports of heart valve disease .
Redux is better known as "Fen-Phen" when prescribed with Phentermine. [div class="excerpt"

http://prescriptiondrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=005528 - other "tested" drugs









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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #170)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 03:03 AM

179. Ephedra, Buckthorn, Areca nut, Kava, Lobelia, Laetrile, Colloidal Silver, Lobelia, Chelation,

Comfrey, Pennyroyal, etc.

Consumer Reports reveals that of 54,000 supplements listed in the Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database, only a third have any scientifically supported level of safety and efficacy. Twelve percent are linked to safety concerns or quality issues. The report calls attention to health risks including cardiovascular, liver and kidney problems; contamination with nasty things like heavy metals due to poor quality control and inspection; and raw ingredients sourced in China, where factories are riddled by lax standards.

Now, plenty of people read statistics like this and say, “It’s all a war waged by Big Pharma to take away my 'health freedom.'” But increasingly, Big Pharma and Big Herba are indistinguishable. The very same mega-companies with gigantic chemical labs that make drugs are cooking up vitamin and herbal supplements labeled with sunny terms like “natural” and “wholesome.” Pfizer, Unilever, Novartis, GlaxoSmithKline and other big pharmaceutical firms make or sell supplements. Procter & Gamble Co. and Arm & Hammer are also in on the action. Wall Street is getting in on the game, too: the Carlyle Group, a private-equity titan, owns NBTY (formerly Nature's Bounty), whose brands include Nature's Bounty, Sundown Naturals, Puritan's Pride, and Vitamin World.

So many people worried about having to spend money at the doctor. So much money to be made!

When they make supplements, companies don’t have to play by the same rules as when they make drugs. The FDA was launched in 1906 to regulate food and drugs because of the proliferation of snake oil salesmen and other hucksters who went door to door selling products claiming to promote health but containing all manner of surprising secret ingredients, like grain alcohol. But in 1994, partly because of the strong financial ties between the supplement industry and lawmakers (I’m looking at you, Sen. Orrin Hatch), the controversial Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) was passed which allowed dietary supplements to operate with little regulation. The supplement industry, as a result, does not have to do thorough trials for safety and efficacy. And they don’t necessarily have to alert consumers about harmful side-effects.

Even when a supplement is clearly shown to be harmful, it’s difficult for the FDA to step in and ban it. Just take the case of ephedra, which people used to take for weight loss and to boost energy. Despite mounting evidence of dangerous effects, in some cases fatal, manufacturers challenged a 2004 FDA ban and got it overturned. It took the U.S. Court of Appeals to restore the ban in 2006.

http://www.alternet.org/personal-health/big-herba-out-control-why-vitamins-minerals-and-herbal-remedies-can-be-dangerous

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Response to progressoid (Reply #179)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:10 PM

216. FDA has approved chelation for heavy metal poisoning

Chelation is a very effective way to treat heavy-metal poisoning. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved prescription chelation therapy for the treatment of lead poisoning. Injected EDTA binds with the harmful metal and both are then eliminated from the body through the kidneys.


http://www.webmd.com/balance/tc/chelation-therapy-topic-overview


Chelation therapy is a treatment that involves repeated intravenous (IV) administration of a chemical solution of ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, or EDTA. It is used to treat acute and chronic lead poisoning by pulling toxins (including heavy metals such as lead, cadmium, and mercury) from the bloodstream. The word "chelate" comes from the Greek root chele, which means "to claw." EDTA has a claw-like molecular structure that binds to heavy metals and other toxins.
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved EDTA chelation therapy as a treatment for lead and heavy metal poisoning. It is also used as an emergency treatment for hypercalcemia (excessive calcium levels) and the control of ventricular arrhythmias (abnormal heart rhythms) associated with digitalis toxicity.

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/ethylenediaminetetraacetic-acid

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #216)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 01:03 AM

254. But not for autism, Alzheimer's, heart disease, etc.

Last edited Sat Apr 23, 2016, 03:00 AM - Edit history (1)

Widely misused by people who think their bodies are flooded with heavy metals.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #179)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:04 PM

245. Agreed we do need a standardizing system like Germany has.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #170)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 07:56 PM

242. +1,000,000,000

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Response to progressoid (Reply #145)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 07:59 PM

244. Modern pharmaceuticals are not really regulated in this country either. It's pay to play at the fda.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #244)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:19 PM

249. Prove it with a consensus of science.

And legit sources.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #244)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 01:24 AM

255. So who is regulating "natural" cures?

Who makes sure the "medicine" is the proper strength? Or if they have the ingredients they claim? Or if they are even effective at all?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #255)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 06:29 PM

268. We need a regulation system for herbs and other "alternative substances" like Germany has.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #268)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 07:42 PM

269. Big Supplement won't allow that.

And you would not none happy with the outcome.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #101)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 10:31 PM

150. Because something's old, it's good / better? How about those leeches?

How about a good old-fashioned blood letting to let those bad humours out?

Oh wait, you get to pick and choose which of the 'traditional' healing techniques are good, but others are crap?

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #150)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 07:57 PM

243. Well let's just put a whole mouth of mercury in everyone's teeth and see how that works out!

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #243)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:15 PM

248. You see, science adapts. It doesn't claim that those poisoned by mercury have bad chakras.

Or that the mercury wasn't 'blessed' enough, or that the moon was in the wrong phase.

Ever hear a homeopath change their mind about their stupid shit?

Of course, not.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #248)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 06:28 PM

267. Science does not adapt so well in the USA. Still packing mercury in people's teeth even though

many countries have banned it. Sweden even pays to have it replaced with safe materials.

Still keep unsafe drugs on market. Still deny global warming.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #267)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 09:02 PM

270. Science adapts a fuck ton better than woo-shit does. Acupuncture doesn't work for you? Your chi..

.. is not in harmony.

Chiropracty doesn't cure your diabetes? Well, you must have a subluxation that needs adjusting.

If science were as stuck as stupid-shit homeopathy, we'd still be using leeches and trepannation to let the bad humours out.

Re global warming-- who the fuck do you think studied the issue and raised the possibility 40-some years ago? It sure as shit wasn't a homeopath. No, it was climate researchers.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #270)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 09:06 PM

271. Foaming at the mouth at such non-violent treatments.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #271)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 09:11 PM

272. Non-efficacious, you mean? Sure, water is non-violent. So is interpretive dance.

If my leg were broken, I don't care what interpretive dance you do, give me some actual medicine.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #272)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 09:16 PM

273. surgeons for broken legs. herbs and healing diet for auto-immune diseases such as diabetes 2.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #273)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 09:26 PM

274. "herbs and healing diet" -- is not homeopathy. And 'herbs' for diabetes is fucking stupid.

Controlling one's diet is part of managing diabetes. Carb counts, carbs derived from fiber v processed starches.. testing regimes, long acting and short acting insulins.. that's how you manage diabetes.

But taking water and pretending it has some actual scientific value for something other than quenching thirst? Is paying a goddamned quack.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:07 PM

37. sciencebasedmedicine is written by one man - David Gorski - with huge ties to drug companies

He takes money from Bayer among other drug makers - pharmaceutical funding. Of course, he is against anything alternative - it's his bread and butter.

Gorski has a reputation for having an overzealous resentment towards anything outside of the definition of “Science”. He speaks in nasty tones, mocking and demeaning others on subjects that he literally has no experience in. He relies on his understanding of “science” and his skeptic analysis to come to his conclusions.


http://www.truthwiki.org/david-gorski/

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #37)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:29 PM

47. No, it's not.

It is written by multiple physicians, and they are fully open about their sources of money.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-pharma-shill-gambit/

It is ugly to make such deceitful attacks upon others without justification.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:21 PM

39. David Gorski of sciencebasedmedicine is a pharma shill

I enjoyed checking out this Exposing David Gorski Facebook Page - Your sciencebasedmedicine reports are not science based they are just the opinions of a pharma shill. Just Google his name.

https://www.facebook.com/ExposingDrDavidHGorskiAkaOrac/

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #39)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:23 PM

57. No, he's not.

Your use of character assassination deceit is ugly and wrong.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #57)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:54 PM

76. The guy used to post as "Orac" and blogged as "SoCalGal"

pretending to be a woman. He is a nobody in the science world. He's an assistant professor and breast cancer dr. Plus he is known for speaking of himself in the third person - how creepy is that.



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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #76)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:57 PM

77. As Orac, yes, but he wasn't hiding anything.

You appear to be completely unable to support your baseless claims.

You owe DU an apology.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #77)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:43 AM

82. I think it's you who owe DU an apology - must be projection!

You are always having your posts hidden for being rude and a women posted a copy of a very sick email you sent to her on DU. She posted a warning of the type of email we might get from you.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #82)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:45 AM

83. So you can't support your claims about David Gorski.

Thanks for the admission.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #39)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 04:11 PM

100. If He's a Pharma Shill

they aren't getting their money's worth. He's been skeptical of drugs as well as woo.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #17)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:13 PM

186. I look forward to the consequences of you calling the nation out.

I look forward to the consequences of you calling the nation out. As well, I'm certain the call-out will be observed, measured and tested.... unless of course, your post was simply a "waste" as well.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #186)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:36 PM

195. Why do you make so many pointless posts?

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:48 PM

23. I am a toxicologist. Homeopathy is stupid. Acupuncture has merit and works via several mechanisms.

Many of our medicines from statins to aspirin were based upon plant secondary metabolites (my graduate work was in some of these compounds). Herbal medicine is founded in chemistry and pharmacology.

To that end, homeopathy is fucking stupid, stupid, stupid. Water retaining a "memory" has to be the dumbest shit I have ever heard.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #23)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:52 PM

28. So then why are hospitals using it?

Are you right and they are wrong?

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #28)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 07:55 PM

30. I am right. They are wrong. P.T.Barnum said it right I believe.

Shall I quote him or do you know it?

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #28)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:20 PM

38. There is money to be made in scamming people

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #38)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:24 PM

41. There is money to be made by big pharma

scamming people! Lots and lots of money!

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #41)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:26 PM

44. The answer to the problems with pharmaceutical companies

is not to bring back liars and snake oil salesmen.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #41)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:43 PM

74. If I wanted to scam people, homeopathy would be a bigger profit margin than actual medicine.

For homeopathy: No research and development. No testing needed. No oversight. No ingredients but water.

All you need is gullible people.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #28)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:40 PM

52. Can you provide links to hospitals that practice homeopathy?

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #52)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:17 PM

55. here's one...

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Response to eShirl (Reply #55)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:22 PM

56. +1,000 ... 000

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Response to eShirl (Reply #55)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 08:14 PM

138. Ha!

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Response to eShirl (Reply #55)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:36 PM

234. Excellent! Thanks!!!

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #28)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:02 PM

63. Yes.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #28)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 04:40 PM

102. Good god you're right!

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #23)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:49 PM

120. BTW...

Acupuncture is only a more elaborate placebo.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #120)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:38 PM

129. I will give it the benefit of the doubt

Especially acupressure with release of endorphins, but I don't believe it aids digestion or other such nonsense. Most chiropractic medicine is bullshit too although heat, massage, etc that some employ has merit.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #133)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 09:36 PM

143. I have had three knee surgeries

Two ACLs, and one LCL, plus L4/L5 spinal fusion. I still bench press at powerlifting meets. Deep tissue massage to break up scar tissue was very helpful in my recoveries and part of every PT regimen I have been through.

Tens units helped a lot with the fusion. Hydrocodone worked too but I don't like taking that for any longer than necessary.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #23)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:27 PM

134. My job title is senior environmental project scientist ....

.... and I endorse you post.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:01 PM

31. Switzerland to recognise homeopathy as legitimate medicine. And?

 

The highly educated people of Germany once were head over heels about Hitler.
Today, the highly educated people of Russia have a majority positive view of Stalin.

I am not familiar as to what led the highly educated people of Switzerland to validate homeopathy, acupuncture and other unproven medicines, but the fact remains that these medicines have zero scientific validation (other than placebo via chaman effect)

Period.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #31)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:24 PM

42. The highly educated people of Switzerland did no such thing

It is just like NCAM in America; powerful yet whiny individuals cried about the original findings and paid off politicians to let them "reexamine" the findings and stack the review teams with idiots.

We only have the ludicrous NCAM because of two unscrupulous Politicians. The Swiss have Homeopathy because of a bogus committee.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #42)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:34 PM

49. Some Americans believe in Deepak Chopra, so anything is possible..

 

..I fear.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #31)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 11:08 PM

68. It involves these tiny particles

 

let's call them B and S. You can't see or interact with them, but they are there. Look if millions of people do something, how can we call it crazy? That's facts. You can't question the tides. Nobody can.

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Response to Rex (Reply #68)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 02:25 PM

95. THANK YOU!!

 

I'm so grateful. Now I see the light.

B.S. The Band! of Supernatural-medicine!

AMEN!! I SEE THE LIGHT!!



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Response to Albertoo (Reply #95)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:50 PM

122. Hehe

 

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:02 PM

34. homeopathy?

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:04 PM

35. I wish my health insurance would cover wholistic medicine.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #35)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:25 PM

43. Dirk Gentry could head it

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #43)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 08:30 PM

48. Yoda would be a proponent of Wholistic Medicine.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:08 PM

54. Regular, systematic attacks on holistic health are a troubling reality

Imagine what might happen to the profits of multinational pharmaceutical corporations if homeopathy and other forms of non-toxic holistic health were to catch on?

There's already a grave threat to profit$ from the increasing public awareness of the harsh and debilitating side effects of pharmaceutical-chemical remedies. Somebody, Inc. fears competition from non-toxic modalities, and is on the warpath to crush holistic health.

Consider the deeply disturbing "side effects" of Multinational Pharmaceutical Drug$, Inc.:

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #54)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:55 PM

60. The only attacks on holistic health are the ones occurring within your head...

 

why not focus on actual treatments that, you know, actually fucking work, rather than trying to sell quackery and fake being concerned about patient's health.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #60)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:47 PM

65. Hey, science and ethics are not needed.

We just need to follow any old scam, and all will be well.

How do you not understand that?

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #54)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 10:03 PM

64. Do you even understand what homeopathy IS? It's not "alternative medicine", it's water.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #54)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:08 AM

79. where you go? Did the salt water sleeping pill work

 

LOL

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #79)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 11:39 AM

185. Been busy protecting the elders in my neighborhood...

...from the unholy depredations of Big Pharma, Inc. - which is bombarding them not just with propagandistic BS and pernicious side effects from toxic ChemDrugs, but also with Massive Unjustifiable Price Gouging.

Thanks for asking.



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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #185)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 12:58 PM

188. Actually, you have been here the whole time, making plenty of posts elsewhere.

Whoops.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #185)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:06 PM

246. +1,000,000,000,000

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #246)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:25 PM

251. That poster was not being honest.

And you gave it a plus whatever?

Really?



Hmm. Why would you do that?

Something is a bit suspicious.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #54)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 11:36 PM

152. Kinda like chemtrails, eh?

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #54)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 10:54 AM

180. Not this crap again - But here we go-

By definition, alternative medicine,
Has either not been proved to work,
Or been proved not to work.
Do you know what they call ‘Alternative medicine’ that’s been proved to work?
Medicine.

Thanks to Tim Minchin


All the chakra realignment, reiki, acupuncture, naturopath nonsense and assorted woo is just wishful thinking without basis in reality.
And all your wishing won't make it so.

I'm now going to have my chakra's removed, drink some wine (non-homeopathic), take my gout medicine and enjoy some pork.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #54)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:05 PM

190. And as Dara says - Get in the sack.

?t=1m17s

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Response to GoneOffShore (Reply #190)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:09 PM

191. +1,000,000 ... 000

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Mon Apr 18, 2016, 09:51 PM

58. Homeopathy literally can't work, it would violate everything we know about physics and the universe.

 

Water doesn't have memory, for fuck's sake!

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #58)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:10 AM

81. Yeah, but the purveyor of the OP thinks pesticides are GMOs....

... So such confusion appears to be a typical issue.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #81)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 11:22 PM

171. GMO's and herbicides go together - Give me a break!!

And GMO Crops Mean More Herbicides

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bethhoffman/2013/07/02/gmo-crops-mean-more-herbicide-not-less/#4a3f7f6ea371

At the center of debate is the pesticide glyphosate, the active ingredient in Monsanto MON +0.14%‘s Round Up. Food & Water Watch found that the “total volume of glyphosate applied to the three biggest GE crops — corn, cotton and soybeans — increased 10-fold from 15 million pounds in 1996 to 159 million pounds in 2012.” Overall pesticide use decreased only in the first few years GE crops were used (42 percent between 1998 and 2001) and has since then risen by 26 percent from 2001 to 2010.





Says the World Health Organization.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #171)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:00 PM

189. Benbrook again? You know that nonsense has been debunked.

Last edited Thu Jun 9, 2016, 04:51 PM - Edit history (1)

You've certainly seen the Benbrook nonsense debunked before, so it really is disingenuous to post it and ask that it be debunked again. That's not ok.

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2012/09/24/anti-gmo-study-is-appropriately-dismissed-as-biased-poorly-performed/

http://weedcontrolfreaks.com/2012/10/do-genetically-engineered-crops-really-increase-herbicide-use/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/collideascape/2012/10/03/when-bad-news-stories-help-bad-science-go-viral/#.VxZQ7_krIdU

And, finally, the reality is that Benbrook is not looked upon much better than Seralini.
http://www.science20.com/science_20/the_dying_gasp_of_chuck_benbrooks_credibility-156906

GMOs reduced sprayed pesticides and herbicides, and allow for the use of safer ones. Why do you want to harm the planet by stopping that?

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #189)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 06:26 PM

194. Food Babe fans just aren't that into facts and reality

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #58)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:11 PM

107. "...everything we know about physics and the universe."

 

see reply #106. Or not.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #107)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:38 PM

115. Yes, see post 106 for astounding ignorance.

Or not.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #115)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:40 PM

116. I'm convinced!

 

Or not.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #116)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:43 PM

118. You wrote post 106, thus your confession has been made.

There is no "or not" about it.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:01 AM

78. That's sad

 

Because homeopathy is 100 percent pure D bullshit. It is literally magical thinking. It is, in a word, insane.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:08 AM

80. Aren't you the anti-GMO poster who pretends pesticides are GMOs?

Hmm.

And now you're telling DU that homeopathy is health care?

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #80)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:04 AM

85. They're the poster who was banned by Skinner for "Chemtrails crazy talk"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=109787&sub=trans

SpiralHawk: "...and check out all the hot young secretaries on the beach. Smirk." - Teh Newtie (R) http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=79822
"That's because it's true. Smirk." - xCommander AWOL (R) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=690288&mesg_id=690289

etc.

AxionExcel: "You rang?" - Hot Tub Tommy (R) http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7748273
"I wonder what the proles are doing tonight?" - Panama Papers Plutocrats (R) http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027738288

etc.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #85)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 10:04 AM

88. Ruh roh.

Interesting.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #88)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:46 AM

161. Yes, but fully predicted

When someone joins DU and is immediately going full steam on the crazy train, there's a pretty good chance they are a repeat customer.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #161)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:44 PM

164. That does make sense.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #85)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 04:43 PM

103. ...

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #85)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 04:52 PM

105. Damn, you're good.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #151)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 11:41 PM

153. I think I probably confuse that one with moon bombing lady and electric universe dude

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #153)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 01:26 PM

192. And the Indigo children!

How soon we forget.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #80)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:19 AM

86. If you read the OP you would know the answer to your question

I'm telling you in plain, unvarnished language that Switzerland is legitimizing homeopathy and holistic health care. That's all. There are no claims about homeopathy or anything else. Just a simple fact from the news.

Please go back and spend a minute to actually read the OP so that you can comment in some sort of relevant way.

If you are feeling a monumental wave of incoherent rage about holistic health and (apparently) clean food as well, you probably should to go to Switzerland and when you get there you can TRUMPet your allegation that in your expert opinion the people of Switzerland are STUPID. That may make you feel better. But then again it may not.

Trying to 'shoot the messenger' or 'alert' on a responsible person who is delivering a verifiable fact that you for whatever reason can't bear to face is, well, poor form.






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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #86)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 10:02 AM

87. So you ARE promoting a debunked scam.

And your propaganda has been debunked repeatedly. Yet you choose to ignore that reality.

That's quite telling and disturbing.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #87)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:09 PM

90. No. I'm reporting the news from Switzerland.

Your ad hominem attacks fall on deaf ears. But amuse yourself endlessly if you must. It won't change anything. Switzerland will still have chosen to legitimize homeopathy and holistic medicine. And I still will not have claimed anything at all - positive or negative - about homeopathy or non-toxic holistic health care; I've simply relayed a bit of news about Switzerland that somehow provokes you (and a phalanx of pro-phamacetuical cronies) into incoherence, rage, and a volley of sidetracking ad-hominem attacks. That's quite telling and disturbing.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #90)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 12:11 PM

91. No, you're "reporting" propaganda, and you don't know what ad hominem means.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #86)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:46 PM

202. No, Switzerland isn't "legitimizing" homeopathy

There's nothing that can legitimize homeopathy other than evidence that it works. Switzerland has just announced that they will pay for it along with real medicine.

Let me ask you this: was slavery a legitimate practice because the U.S. recognized it?

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #86)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 07:01 PM

241. I'm still waiting for a response

Was slavery a legitimate practice because the U.S. recognized it?

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 04:45 PM

104. I'm betting NaturalNews is pretty high up on your list of shortcuts

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:03 PM

106. Oh look, the usual suspects on DU

 

are flipping out over Woo! Again. One would think they Knew Everything.

IMO if it takes a quantum physicist 9 (or 11) dimensions to explain the universe, that leaves a fuck of a lot of room for things we do not understand and cannot explain...yet.

That is all--flame away!

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #106)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:14 PM

108. Rarely does one see argumentum ad ignorantiam so masterfully deployed!

Kudos for simultaneously working in argumentum ad hominem.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #108)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:36 PM

113. The problem with using the argumentum ad ignorantiam dodge is

 

that reality is rarely as simple as it would require to be definitive. An informal logical fallacy may be necessary but is not sufficient to arrive at the "truth." Reality seldom offers two and only two possible choices, "true" or "false". That view omits other possibilities: "unknown" (which may include un-tested or insufficiently-tested) and "unknowable". The history of science is full of unknowns that became known--when they were investigated (frequently by people who were looking for something else altogether).

Thanks for playing.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #113)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:41 PM

117. You get an extra commendation for the word salad

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #113)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:45 PM

119. Deepak! You're on DU!

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #113)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:59 PM

124. And yet reality seems to love two choices.

 

Mater and anti-mater. Electrons and positrons. Paper or plastic. Digital or analog. Binary. Paul McCartney and Alien Paul McCartney that replaced him after his car hit a tree. Fat Elvis and Skinny Elvis. Red or Blue states. The Bicameral system. And of course multiples of two. 4 wheels, 4 legs, 4 walls, 8 corners, 16 bits.

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Response to Rex (Reply #124)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:02 PM

131. Yes, you get it! Black and White! Good and Evil!

 

Life is simple, knowable and known! Never gray, or nuanced, or un-examined. Bravo!

And there is no greater barrier to knowledge than contempt prior to examination.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #131)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:28 PM

135. The crap you're promoting has been examined.

Pretending otherwise is some seriously contemptuous BS.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #135)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 08:01 PM

137. What crap am I promoting, pray tell?

 

Please point to the post where I said anything in defense of any specific crap. I'll wait.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #137)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 12:45 AM

154. Really?

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #154)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 09:23 AM

160. Your erudition is stunning. Really. Como siempre.

 

Reading is a good thing, I find, and unlike yourself? I read and responded to more than the headline in the OP.

Thanks for playing though.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #160)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 10:41 AM

162. Derp.

See post 106.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #131)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 09:20 PM

140. We are all made from the elements in our Sun. Simple stuff.

 

Simple truths. Life is pointless and in that truth is the rub for self-aware creatures. We grow contemptuous with knowledge, we are naive without it. Contempt means bias. Facts are not biased. Humans are biased. Faith is biased. Science is unbiased.

I don't know anyone that thinks they know it all, just folks that think there is some kind of prize at the end of the conversation. There is none. Just more time and future conversations.

Unless you hang out in GD-P, then it is poo flinging all day long.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #113)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:51 PM

203. Yes!

Quantum physics corresponds to boundless external reality and love is mirrored in reckless miracles. The universe serves essential mortality, and I wish more people would understand that the mind is the ground of an abundance of sensations and orderliness is the foundation of immortal observations.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #108)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:37 PM

114. Wow. That post deserves some sort of an award.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:30 PM

111. Anyone that actually knows what homeopathy is, and believes the "science" behind it, is stupid.

I'm sorry. That's just the way it is.

It's true, regardless of who you are. It doesn't matter if that person is a Liberal, a Conservative, Black, White, Male, Female, Oldster, or Youngster. If that person understands how homeopathy is supposed to work, and they still think it works..then they are stupid.

I'm not talking about alternative remedies to sickness. I"m not talking about healthy lifestyles that are out of the norm. I'm talking about the idea that water water that used to have an ingredient in it, can somehow cure anything, or make any difference that plain, old, water can't make.

Anyone that thinks that they have been cured of anything by homeopathy is sadly diluted .

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Response to Captain Stern (Reply #111)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:00 PM

125. So you are slamming Mexicans, Europeans, Indians and South Americans as "stupid'

You must have learned that strategy from Donald 'StupidMaster' Trump (R). It is the kind of arrogance fitting only for morally bankrupt Republicans.

Even so basic a source as wikipedia reports that India, Mexico, and a host of other nations around the world including European and South American nations are open to and accepting of homeopathy and holistic health and the non-toxic health benefits that - they say - it has brought to millions of people.

Please note, once again, that I've made absolutely no claims about homeopathy or holistic health, positive or negative. I'm just a hard working prole in search of good health, and well informed about the toxic side effects of Corporate Industrial Pharmaceutical Drugs, Inc. In this thread I've only reported on what is accepted and welcome in Switzerland, Europe, South America and elsewhere. It's shocking to see how much fear and hate is aroused because people have exercised their own intelligence, judgement and free will to choose health approaches that they find work for them and their families.

But I stand with the right of Mexicans, Swiss, Indians, South Americans and other to make their own free-will choices, despite systematic attacks on holistic health by multinational chemical-pharmaceutical corporations afraid of losing their Massively Profiteering Price-jacking Pill-Pimping Priority.

Fair-minded people recognize that those who emulate vulgarian Republican Donald Trump by labeling Mexicans (Europeans, South Americans, Indians and others) as STUPID because they used their intelligence and free-will to choose non-toxic forms of health care, are advancing only the causes of bigotry and ignorance, and not good, non-toxic health.



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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #125)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:22 PM

128. Anyone who calls bullshit on homeopathy is just like Donald Trump!



"chemical free food"

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #125)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 07:54 PM

136. Yes. Yes, I am. But not ALL Mexicans, Europeans, Indians, and South Americans.

Just the ones that believe that homeopathy works. Those people are stupid, regardless of where they live.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #125)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:43 PM

167. Question:

If water has memory, and can "remember" a fleck of onion that may or may not have been in it at one point in time, how does it forget all the piss and shit that has DEFINITELY been in it? How do homeopaths control for the confounding effect of empty McChicken Sandwich containers and half-empty cans of Bud Light left along roadsides? Is it the St. John's Wart-diluted-beyond-nothingness that is "curing" your common cold, or is it the dogfish semen? Because it might be the dogfish semen. Just sayin.

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Response to Captain Stern (Reply #111)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:02 PM

126. Believe it or not, back in the 80's a homeopathic crank was published by the Journal Nature

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 05:50 PM

121. I have a magic rock in my pocket.

And it does wonders for $250 an hour if you are sick. Woo.

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Response to Eko (Reply #121)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 09:22 PM

141. You mean you DID have a magic rock in your pocket.

 

I cast 'teleport other' and rolled a d20 so now it is in MY pocket.

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Response to Rex (Reply #141)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 09:30 PM

142. My spirit animal

will be visiting you shortly if you don't give it back right now.

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Response to Eko (Reply #142)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 09:41 PM

144. Oh noes! I rolled a 1 and fumbled!

 

The rock fell out of my hands and rolled off a cliff only to have a griffin catch it and fly off.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 08:41 PM

139. Two words end this : Coffee Enemas

 

Enough said.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Tue Apr 19, 2016, 10:20 PM

147. "Informed" you say? Just goes to show, "informed" people can do stupid shit.

Or was that an appeal to authority?

"Well, if the 8th smartest people say so, it must be true!"

Free clue: it doesn't work that way.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:23 AM

156. If you are using a rectal thermometer to try and assess the weight of the Queen Mary...

...you've got the wrong tool for the job.

Multinational Pharmaceutical Chemical Corps, Inc. in their ongoing campaign to snuff out non-toxic holistic medicines are locked into a tragically narrow mechanical digital world conception that - along with their zeal to keep profiteering grossly from their overpriced products - blocks and blinds them from acknowledging the public good. Their systematic corporately funded so-called "scientific debunking" efforts are really Pharmaceutical Marketing Strategies that lead to gross distortions of reality.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #156)

Wed Apr 20, 2016, 08:00 AM

158. Must be the chemtrails

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #156)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 08:56 PM

204. Do you seriously think homeopathy is "the right tool for the job?"

I'd insert a ROFL here, but this snake oil shit isn't funny anymore.

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Response to EvolveOrConvolve (Reply #204)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:34 PM

211. I've made no claims about homeopathy, positive or negative

I've only reported the fact that the Swiss, the Mexicans, the Indians, and millions of others use homeopathy for health care and are satisfied with it. That fact really upsets a lot of people, as you can see.

People who are use ballpeen hammers to try and remove a grain of dust from a person's eye are - like the scientists try to measure the energies of homeopathy - using tools that are crude, and utterly wrong for the job.



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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #211)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 06:58 PM

239. So let me ask you this

Do you think homeopathy is "the right tool for the job"? If so, what evidence do you have that it's "the right tool for the job"?

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Thu Apr 21, 2016, 09:08 PM

208. Over 100 million people in India use homeopathy, and the popularity of holistic health is growing

...according to the Times of India. Homeopath doctors double in two decades

I report this fact reluctantly, knowing that it may well provoke a further Plague of Indignant Outrage & Advanced Knicker Twistage. But facts are facts. Surely as adults we can accept that other people value their own experience and discernment, and should be respect for the choices they make about their own health care.

Of course we can be certain that sundry entities will be quick to TRUMPET that in their 'superior' opinion the people of India - like the Swiss and the Mexicans - are to be condemned as STUPID for using a non-toxic holistic health practice that is working for them. And that they are likewise STUPID for healing themselves by using the elegant, non-toxic (and refined for two-millennia) Indian tradition of Ayurvedic Medicine.

Those who like Donald Trump (R) fling the STUPID epithet at everyone who disagrees with them, will, no doubt, be quick to prescribe that in their 'superior' opinion the 100 million Indian citizens - and millions elsewhere on our great green planet - should sit in front of the boob toob for hours each day to absorb Big PharmaChem, Inc. ads and Internet trollage. These digital dumps will advise the infidels that they need to abandon their non-toxic holistic health practices, and instead start paying yuuge sums of money to PharmaChem Corps so they can be doped up by EXORBITANTLY PRICED synthetic drugs with a vast range of toxic and pernicious side effects.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Homeopath-doctors-double-in-two-decades/articleshow/16098627.cms

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #208)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 02:33 AM

222. Lots of people believe in chemtrails

That doesn't make them real.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #208)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 12:59 PM

235. Let's not use health practices in India to prove your 'point'

100 million people (or more) especially in rural India are sick and/or dying like flies do to a complete lack of ANY type of medical attention, coupled with a generational total ignorance of some of the basics of disease, i.e. germs exist, how certain diseases are transmitted, etc.

I once oversaw a Peace Corps Public Health program in rural India (Madras), where our nurse PC volunteers tried to work with villagers to improve their general health. They rapidly discovered that, for the villagers germs don't exist (I can't see them so they aren't there), there's no problem with the village well being 1 meter from the communal cesspit and even more remarkably, that there is no connection between having sex and getting pregnant ( you don't get pregnant every time you have sex!). Teaching Birth control mechanisms also failed - after teaching the village women in the use of condoms (demonstrating them placed on a broomstick), a follow up found that the women who had been so instructed were still getting pregnant at the same rate as before. Inquiries found that these women were following the demonstration to the letter- they put the condoms on their broomstick and then proceeded to have sex with hubby as usual.

The most shocking part (to me, at least) was that almost every child in these villages had Kwashiakor, a disease that only occurs when there is total avitaminosis, i.e.a complete and total lack of vitamins. It is readily seen in dark skinned people who have yellow hair and distended bellies. This while the village had huge Mango trees, with gigantic mangoes rotting on the ground. Village elders explained that (according to their religion) "Mangoes are 'hot' fruit and all 'hot' fruits are prohibited.

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 03:29 AM

223. Fuckin magnets! How do they work?

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Response to AxionExcel (Original post)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:10 AM

226. FINAL WORD (from me)

As I exit this thread of discussion let me go on the record as saying that - despite a frantic mass effort to denigrate hundreds of millions of people, and me - no one has presented any kind of argument that would cause me to question my support for free will and free choice. Fabulous team effort, but total FAIL. I support free will. I support free choice. In my view that's what being a democrat in a democracy is all about.

Allow me to note for the final time that I have no where in this discussion made any claims whatsoever about whether holistic health in general and homeopathy in particular work or don't work, only that they are non-toxic. All I have done is to report the fact that hundreds of millions of people around the world choose homeopathy out of their free will and find it effective, non toxic and satisfying for their personal and family health needs. That fact has obviously got a lot of people foaming at the mouth. Funny about that.

Let me also go on the record as stating that I am not in general opposed to the medicines developed by the disciplines of modern science. Some of those meds obviously do a lot of good, and I am grateful that they exist for people who need them and who choose of their own free will to use them. But the Multinational Corporations that are pimping their pills far and wide with devious Internet and TV strategies and their astonishing array of toxic and debilitating side effects, and then gouging unholy, unjustifiable gobs of money from the pockets of the sick and elderly, are another matter.

Anyone who frequents these discussion pages cannot fail to observe the regular, systematic attacks on non-toxic approaches to health, as well as the regular systematic attacks on clean, non-toxic food. That should raise questions for everyone. It certainly raises questions for me.

Once again, in respectful appreciation for careful personal discernment based on knowledge and experience, and the fundamental right to exercise free will health choices, I remain yours - Good old non-toxic AxionExcel


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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #226)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 09:31 AM

227. In other words, you still support scam artists.

Last edited Fri Apr 22, 2016, 07:09 PM - Edit history (2)

That's not ok. Your BS excuses don't change that fact.

And you offer no respect to anyone. Cut the crap. You repeatedly make ad hominem attacks against others at DU, referring to them as Monsanto Shills, TRUMPeters, etc... You have no justification for any of your posts, and your personal attacks are ugly and despicable.

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #227)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 11:18 AM

228. Because chemikillz!!!1111

I'm series!11

It's great to know that there are people on both sides of the political spectrum can be as dumb as a box of rocks. And write amazingly long word-salady, Palinesque screeds defending the indefensible. But the rest of us must accept said nonsense for the sake of tolerance and inclusion and because opinions must be respected. Despite said opinions not having any basis in reality.

Thank you for standing up for science against the nonsense.

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #226)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 06:19 PM

237. "foaming at the mouth" + rabid anti-vaxxer, chemtrail true believer, Big Pharma conspiracy theorist



AxionExcel = SpiralHawk

So it's quite telling how a person who falsely claims to have a neutral position on homeopathy is also a rabid anti-vaxxer, no-shit believes chemtrails are real, and checks under his bed every night to see if big pharma is there. Yet everyone who dares to call bullshit on the most obvious bullshit imaginable MUST be "foaming at the mouth".



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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #237)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 06:35 PM

238. +1,000,000 ... 000

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #226)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:14 PM

247. More from scientists at World Homeopathy Summit

Twenty-six scientists including molecular biologists, engineers, physicists, immunologists, pharmacologists, chemists, nano-technologists, zoologists, Homoeopaths and conventional doctors from some of the premium universities presented their papers on latest research related to Homoeopathy concepts. About 800 delegates from across the country, mainly practitioners, teaching faculties, post graduate students, Ph.D. scholars and scientists attended the summit.

Prof. Jayesh Bellare, HOD, Chemical Engineering, Indian Institute of Technology, Mumbai, presented his paper on 'nano-technology of Homoeopathic medicines' and demonstrating that Homoeopathic medicines in high dilutions retain the nano-particles of the source material.

Prof. Rajendran, Principal, Vinayaka Mission's homoeopathic Medical College, Salem presented his study revealing the hidden secrets of homoeopathic potencies using High Resolution Transmission Electron Microscope and Energy Dispersive Spectroscopy (EDS) on Aurum metalicum 6C-C M potencies and FESM and EDS studies of Carbo Vegitabilis 6C to CM potencies.

Dr. Arun Jamkar, Vice Chancellor of Maharashtra University of Health Sciences, Nasik made special comments on the future of nano-technology and Homoeopathy.

Prof. G.D. Jindal, Electrical Engineer and Dr. Akalpita Paranjape both former scientists at Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Trombay, Mumbai demonstrated measurability of the effects of homoeopathic dilutions on the autonomous nervous system in humans with an electrical device.

Prof. P. K. Joshi, Physicist at Tata Institute of Fundamental Research and Dr. Prafull Barvalia, a renowned Homoeopath from Mumbai, demonstrated enhanced super continuum generation in water in the presence of ultra-dilute solutions using laser beams; in the samples containing high dilutions of Homoeopathic medicines.

Prof. N.C. Sukul, an eminent zoologist and scientist from West Bengal in his presentation on 'Variation in free and bounded water molecule in different Homoeopathic potencies', demonstrated the difference in the spectra between different potencies of the same medicine (Sulphur 30C, 200C, 1M) using Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy.

Above studies opened new understanding about Homoeopathic medicines as nano materials.



http://www.ijrh.org/article.asp?issn=0974-7168;year=2015;volume=9;issue=2;spage=109;epage=113;aulast=Das

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #247)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:26 PM

252. LOL!!!!!

A crap scam artist's "journal."

How desperate are you to believe in nonsense?

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Response to AxionExcel (Reply #226)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:23 PM

250. nano-particals in homeopathic medicine

Contrary to popular belief, homeopathy is not a placebo science, said a group of eminent scientists at the World Homeopathy Summit being held in the city this weekend. It has been long believed that consuming homeopathic medicine has a psychological effect on the patient which leads to some of them getting cured. Busting this and other myths, scientists from Haffkine Institute in Parel, Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) at Chembur, Indian Institute of Technology (IIT-B) in Powai, and the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research (TIFR) shared their research at the summit, which has attracted scientists and doctors from different parts of the world including Italy, Brazil and Austria.


Critic claim that because homeopathy medicines are very highly diluted, they are merely believed to have a placebo effect. However, research by Dr Jayesh Bellare, head of department, Chemical Engineering, at IIT-B, and his team has proved that they do contain nano-particles of medicinal molecules. "While earlier it was thought that homeopathic medicines do not contain medicinal molecules, high resolution microscopes used in the IIT-B lab to observe the medicines found that the molecules do exist in nano sizes," said Dr Bellare.

Physicists at TIFR and BARC have detected the effect of energy particles in homeopathy using laser beams and electrical devices. Former BARC scientist and physicist, Dr Akalpita Paranjpe talked about an electrical device called 'Medical Analyser' which measures the effects of homeopathy medicines on a person's physiology. "We measured the heart rate of a person before and after administering homeopathic medicine Sulphur 200. We noticed that the body reacts to Sulphur 200 and that the ill person goes back to being normal after being administered the medicine," said Dr Paranjpe.


http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-homeopathy-is-not-a-placebo-science-2076685

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #250)

Fri Apr 22, 2016, 08:28 PM

253. YUP! If a scam artist says it's legit, then it's legit!!!!

Oh, wait.

What?

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #253)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 02:25 AM

259. Cuba - Homeopathic immunization against Leptospirosis resulted in significant reduction of disease

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20674839

Large-scale application of highly-diluted bacteria for Leptospirosis epidemic control.
Bracho G1, Varela E, Fernández R, Ordaz B, Marzoa N, Menéndez J, García L, Gilling E, Leyva R, Rufín R, de la Torre R, Solis RL, Batista N, Borrero R, Campa C.
Author information
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Leptospirosis is a zoonotic disease of major importance in the tropics where the incidence peaks in rainy seasons. Natural disasters represent a big challenge to Leptospirosis prevention strategies especially in endemic regions. Vaccination is an effective option but of reduced effectiveness in emergency situations. Homeoprophylactic interventions might help to control epidemics by using highly-diluted pathogens to induce protection in a short time scale. We report the results of a very large-scale homeoprophylaxis (HP) intervention against Leptospirosis in a dangerous epidemic situation in three provinces of Cuba in 2007.
METHODS:

Forecast models were used to estimate possible trends of disease incidence. A homeoprophylactic formulation was prepared from dilutions of four circulating strains of Leptospirosis. This formulation was administered orally to 2.3 million persons at high risk in an epidemic in a region affected by natural disasters. The data from surveillance were used to measure the impact of the intervention by comparing with historical trends and non-intervention regions.
RESULTS:

After the homeoprophylactic intervention a significant decrease of the disease incidence was observed in the intervention regions. No such modifications were observed in non-intervention regions. In the intervention region the incidence of Leptospirosis fell below the historic median. This observation was independent of rainfall.
CONCLUSIONS:

The homeoprophylactic approach was associated with a large reduction of disease incidence and control of the epidemic. The results suggest the use of HP as a feasible tool for epidemic control, further research is warranted.

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #259)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 02:41 AM

262. Published by the Journal of Homeopathy

I bet the hardest part was trying to figure out which one was the placebo



http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/homeoprophylaxis-an-idea-whose-time-has-come-and-gone/

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Response to HuckleB (Reply #253)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 02:26 AM

260. Almost makes you wonder why he isn't cashing in

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Response to womanofthehills (Reply #250)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 02:24 AM

258. OMIC, the favorite predatory publisher of woo cranks everywhere!

http://www.omicsonline.org/author-profile/Jayesh_Bellare/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMICS_Publishing_Group

Yep, if OMIC publishes it, then it must be [strike]true[/strike] bullshit.


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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #258)

Sat Apr 23, 2016, 02:41 AM

261. 80 Nations use homeopathy

Homeopathy is so well trusted that 300 million patients in more than 80 nations use it. In countries such as the U.K., Brazil, parts of India, Mexico and Cuba, homeopathy is integrated into the health system and covered by public health insurance. In Europe, three out of four people are familiar with it. In Cuba, mass dosing of preventive homeopathic medicines is now used routinely by the public health system for epidemic control. One of the world’s most popular over-the-counter flu medicines — Oscillococcinum — is a homeopathic remedy.

Homeopathy is arguably the fastest-growing system of medicine in the world. The Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry of India reported in March 2011 that India’s market for homeopathy was worth approximately $5.35-billion, and growing by about 30% annually. In the U.S., where the FDA recognizes the 1938 American Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia as the official reference guiding the manufacture of homeopathic medicines, their use has increased fivefold since 1990. Homeopathy is now a regulated health profession in Ontario, and homeopathic medicines are classified by Health Canada.



http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/karen-wehrstein-homeopathy-offers-hope

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