I Just Learned That They Don't Teach Cursive Writing In Schools These Days.....

[global1]

Is that true? I just now was talking with a friend that overheard two mothers talking about this with respect to their children and the schools they pick for them. She heard one of the mothers say - that teachers just don't have time to teach kids how to write.

I'm shocked!!!!!!!

Now - I'm about to retire and I guess I'm old school - but how can anyone get by without knowing how to write? If they don't know how to write - does that mean that they will be unable to read anything that is written in cursive as well? Doesn't our signature mean anything anymore?

Yes - I realize that we're a computer based society and it is important to learn keyboarding - but come on folks - we're talking about the basics here.

I'm putting this out here on DU because I'd like to illicit some responses as to what others feel about this. Perhaps even some teachers here on DU might have an opinion as well. Am I an old fuddy duddy and just not with the times or do I have a point?

[Deuce]

1. I believe it is decided by each state. It should be taught, in my opinion.

[Chiquitita]

111. It is FOR SURE Taught in Private schools that offer an elite education

Because cursive writing, handwriting, is known to encourage the same neurological development that playing music does.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/04/30/should-schools-require-children-to-learn-cursive/the-benefits-of-cursive-go-beyond-writing

[LisaM]

2. I don't think it's every school, but

I agree that it's a mistake to stop teaching it.

[Punkingal]

3. Yep. I found that out because of my grandkids. I was horrified.

[bhikkhu]

4. I can't remember the last time I had to read anything in cursive

I probably haven't written cursive since high school, which was in the 70's. I'm not particularly nostalgic, so I can't say I care. At my kid's high school I'm glad they teach them to read music still, but I don't especially mind that they aren't putting resources into cursive.

[TM99]

7. Sure, that is now for you, but

what if you simply couldn't read cursive at all.

Think about that level of ignorance instead.

[bhikkhu]

53. It would be a trivial level of ignorance

there are many more important things.

[mainer]

85. What a shame not being able to read archives or old diaries

or grandparents' letters or dedications. How impossible to do any sort of historical research whatsoever, even into one's own family roots. Or to understand anything that isn't typed out for you.

It's like not learning to read music. It's not necessary, but by not knowing the skill, you cut off a whole world to you.

Today everyone's told "specialize, specialize!" The end result is that we trap ourselves into little cubicles, without any chance of breaking out into the larger world.

[hollysmom]

101. they could get translated once. I am more interested what is going to happen to signing things.

there will always people who know archaic things. I am more concerned about teaching creationism.

[Mariana]

193. You make it sound as if it's absolutely impossible

for an adult to learn to read cursive. It isn't.

[TM99]

132. As the son of an English

professor and a linguistics professor, I assure you language and writing are hardly trivial.

But yes, please carry on with idiocracy and the dumbing down of America. A stupid populace is an easily swayed and lead populace.

[a la izquierda]

227. I'm a history professor.

I echo statements about the dumbing down of America. If your kid ever decides to become a historian...well good luck reading anything before 1900 or so.

But he/she will probably become a rock star since they can read music. I know I definitely became a rock star...oh wait, that's not right. I read cursive (in three languages) as party of my job.

[muriel_volestrangler]

148. When did you stop handwriting letters?

Not many people were using word processors before the mid 80s - especially for personal letters. Or did you use a typewriter? Again, that wouldn't have been that common.

[bhikkhu]

171. I've hand written many letters, essays, various things over the years

I've always preferred to print, as it is more legible to me and easier.

[braddy]

5. If they don't the time to teach children to write, then what are they teaching them?

[Chan790]

48. Usually it's displaced by keyboarding and a basic comp. sci. curriculum.

Both of which are 100x more useful. I actually had to fight to get my local school district to abandon cursive education and rededicate the resources and time to computer education.

[braddy]

55. What does every American need to learn about the computer, don't we do that on our own, at home?

I would prefer my kids learn writing, thinking, reading books, the computer they can play with in their free time.

[Chan790]

73. I can put it like this.

I'm mostly self-taught on the computer...I was a child of the 1980s and even the Macs we had in the school were primarily thought of as an educational fad that would pass. So we got maybe 30 total hours of computer education per year through elementary school...about 45 minutes per school week for the entire classroom. I taught myself to code. I'm generally far more computer savvy than my peers. (HS Class of 1998)

My youngest brother was just seven years behind me in school...by that time, they had started to realize how important computing would really be and had increased the amount of computing time to approximately 2-3 hours/week per student. Basic programming and computing was a core-curriculum item starting in 2nd grade, along with foreign languages. (Learning competencies in these areas are linked...the sooner in life you begin learning either foreign languages or computing languages, the better you will do in both and the better you will retain knowledge in either field.) He has a natural aptitude with computing and understanding technology that it would take an average adult more than 15,000 hours of education and experience to catch-up with him. The difference in education has changed how they process and understand information...it just comes easier to him and his peers than it will ever come to us. He's not a savant, that's the median of his educational peers. He's also natively-fluently bilingual in English, Spanish and Russian, with passing fluency in 4 other languages (Greek, Serbian, Japanese, German) that he just kind of picked up, seemingly through osmosis. (HS Class of 2005)

If your school officials think like you think...your children will be left behind in the world of tomorrow. Computerized integration of whole-life experience is the direction society is going in. Computing is not an optional core-curriculum area...it's probably the most important one, right up there with math, science and slightly ahead of reading or writing. (None of them can be viewed as remotely optional...for that matter neither are humanities, but those tend to be neglected.) You've mistaken computing as a substitute for critical thinking when computing-integrated learners are generally better critical-thinkers and better analytical thinkers than those whose educations are more classically-aligned. (like yours or mine)

[braddy]

77. You just described wood shop, or the automotive class, besides, by that time surely you could write?

[Chan790]

79. K-5th?

Certainly not wood or auto-shop age.

It's about the age I learned to write well. I could read before I started school...around age 4, read The Hobbit unassisted by age 7. Knew my ABCs before I started Kindergarten. I was always the advanced learner in school. Crash was always the poor student...it turns out that like myself, he's an autodidact. He learns best by self-teaching and being left alone.

No. I'm literally saying that it's a subject area that needs to displace unnecessary material like cursive in grade school and be taught at the same age as arithmetic, reading and writing. If you learn a foreign or programming language by age 7, you will retain it better and be a life-long better learner of foreign languages and programming languages.

[braddy]

81. We don't need all humans to learn how to write programming, just as we didn't need all of them to

learn to build a gun rack, or fix a car engine.

[Chan790]

82. No, but we do need them to be able to thrive in an increasingly-computerized world.

If they cannot use and understand computers at a high level, their future career options are likely to top out at janitor or fast-food.

Even the guy that fixes my car is now having to go back and take courses related to computing because it's becoming increasingly integral to his job as an auto mechanic as the cars are becoming increasingly computerized with every newer model year.

There is no place in the advancing world for the computer-illiterate...it might even be a greater deficiency than being actually illiterate or innumerate.

Not learning to write in an archaic font is not going to have that impact on their lives.

[mainer]

88. 8-year-olds are not learning to program

That's when you learn cursive. Learning cursive does not keep you from learning to program in high school.

[Chan790]

89. That's what I am saying...they are.

The ones that are not learning to do so, or the basic underpinnings that will contribute to future basic programming education, are going to fall behind for life.

I'm for actually banning cursive education. It's a harmful waste of curriculum time and space.

[hack89]

115. Yes they are. That's the best age to start them. nt

[braddy]

90. Learning how to turn on your computer is something that you can learn at home on your own

At the most it can be done like typing class used to be done, as a 6 week elective, class.


Do you really think that computers and cell phones are not a routine part of kids play time and everyday life?

[Chan790]

94. I think that "play time" is not introducing the skills in question.

It also needs to be core-curricular. If writing in a useless font is so important...perhaps that's where we should put cursive. In an elective. It's about as useful as what I learned in my grade-school and middle-school electives: archery, origami, genealogy, photography, fantasy sports...and less useful than others I took : ASL, Latin, robotics, amateur rocketry.

I can honestly say the least important thing I ever learned in a classroom from K-12 is cursive.

[braddy]

100. Learning to write is extremely important, using a computer is something you do naturally and on

your own, few of us here had any training in computers, and our kids and grand kids sure don't need it to use their phones and laptops, or desk top at work.

[hollysmom]

102. you mean while living in your car?

[braddy]

107. I have no idea what that is supposed to mean, or be about.

[hollysmom]

142. well, interestng you question your self, but if you were referring to me,

not everyone has a computer, this is one thing our libraries are now addressing, If you want to apply for a job, many times you do it thorough a computer. But the poorest don't have one, If you want to access government services, many times you do it on line - but the poorest don't have access to internet.

Please think again, not everyone can have a computer. Not everyone has someone to mentor them at home.

[braddy]

143. Computers and smart phones are ubiquitous, we don't need to eliminate the ability to write, for

kids to learn to use the everyday items of their life.

[hollysmom]

144. and those with out them, Screw then?

You really don't understand about poverty? yes some homeless have things, but not that many. Let them steal them? what?

[mahatmakanejeeves]

202. Libraries are pretty good at filling that need.

At least the ones near me are. If you give me a few minutes, I can look up how many public access terminals there are the MLK Library in DC. It's the closest public library to where I am right now.
.
.
.
Sorry, I have other things to do. Start here: The Labs at DC Public Library

[hollysmom]

216. as part of budget cutting in some states, the libraries are going the way of the dinosaur.

republicans you know

Detroit Libraries Closing: 4 Branches Will Shutter Due To Budget Cuts

that is ope place, I can't find it online, but a teacher I know in New Orleans says they are eliminating public school libraries

I can say in my town down the beach, you need either a card, (where you proved you were a resident) or a current power bill to get to use the computers. I finally brought a lap top with me because the internet was free, but access to computers is limited to residents. no address, no access.

[Travis_0004]

159. And they dont all need to know how to write cursive

Im 32. I could probably write cursive if I had to, but Im sure there are a few letters I fogot how to write.

Ill agree that reading cursive is important, I just dont think writing cursive is.

[braddy]

163. Being able to read and write is important, this is starting to sound like Planet of the Apes.

Our students cannot even read our founding documents hanging on our walls, I don't want some adult writing me notes in elementary school printing.

How do they sign their names?

[Chan790]

174. A litany of rebuttals.

*Even if you can read cursive, you probably can't read the founding documents. They're fairly unintelligible, even in Madison's perfect handwriting.

*Your preferences on how you'd like people to write you matter fuck-all honestly.

*There is no obligation to sign your name in cursive...in fact, document security experts strongly advise clients to not have a cursive signature as they're easier to forge. Your printed handwriting is generally more unique than your cursive handwriting. X is still a valid signature. Pretty much any mark you can make with a pen is a legal signature, provided you can make it repeatedly and consistently.

This is Pablo Picasso's signature used on his artwork:


What makes it interesting is that it's not the one he used for legal affairs, that was a simple line sketch of his favorite dog, Lump, that he could repeat nearly infinitely identically but is hard for another person to do correctly quickly, because of muscle memory:


This is Salvador Dali's legal signature:


What do they all have in common? None of them are cursive, though Dali's is partially-inspired by cursive.

[TeamPooka]

210. The problem is that handwriting and laguage use go hand in hand. Without one the other suffers

developmentally.

[Midwestern Democrat]

175. I'm a few years older than you and I can say outright that the computer instruction I received

in HS was almost completely worthless within five years. We were taught on pre-Windows IBM computers - black screens/green font; heavy use of function keys; dot matrix printers; learned how to use Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect - all of that was completely obsolete once Windows came along. I think computing has reached a maturity level that school instruction in it today would have long term value - but the stuff I learned was no more relevant to today than knowing how to make punch cards.

[Jim Beard]

178. I really have to disagree with you on this.

My niece lived in a school district that abandoned cursive and when she was older, she could not read a simple grocery list. I see no problem with learning both.

[Chan790]

181. I do see a problem with it.

Specifically, that there are a finite number of educational minutes in a school year and every minute wasted on cursive is one taken away from a not-archaic skill, aptitude or area-of-study.

Much like slide rule usage...it's a skill that only appeared useful at one time in recent history because there were still some people that hadn't yet abandoned it for more modern skills. Nobody today would suggest that we add it back into the curriculum. It's time to ban cursive education from grade school too.

[braddy]

189. I bet the elites are still learning to write.

[CreekDog]

186. not everyone has computers at home

not everyone has the internet at home, in fact, among the poor, the lack of internet or home computers is surprisingly common.

[braddy]

188. I never mentioned the internet, but a computer or a smart phone is almost universal.

We did not quit teaching people to write because a kid somewhere does not have a computer.

[mainer]

86. Why can't they learn both? Are their little heads too small?

At age 8, which is when I seem to remember learning cursive, kids are smart enough to learn many things. Cursive is something you learn once, and it sticks with you forever. It doesn't preclude also learning how to type (which I think actually comes later.)

At age 8, computer education is pretty much just learning to navigate a keyboard and mouse. It comes instinctively and scarcely needs to be taught. They aren't learning programming skills then.

[Chan790]

91. Every minute of curriculum time spent...

is one that is being taken away from being spent on something else. When you take 30 minutes a week to work on cursive...that's 30 minutes you don't have anymore to spend in the classroom on other material. Classroom minutes are not infinite and shouldn't be wasted on things like cursive. It's curriculum dead-time.

I'd much rather they use it for indoor recess even...that would be more useful and educational than learning cursive. They could at-least use that time to try to gain back time for things like music and arts.

[Baobab]

126. what kind of computer science do they teach?

Do they teach any kind of scripting or programming?

That is a huge problem for schools - we should teach basic technology skills earlier.

[Capt. Obvious]

61. How can we be expected to teach children to learn how to read

if they can't even fit inside the building?

[braddy]

70. I don't know what that means.

[Xithras]

123. Cursive was taught because it was the language of business...long ago.

Back when I was a kid, we were taught two methods of writing. Printing, which was used for informal writing, and cursive, which was for formal and business use. Kids today are still taught to print, so they KNOW how to write, but they are no longer taught cursive because it NO LONGER HAS ANY RELEVANCE.

Cursive is not used in business any longer. It's all printing or typing. A hand written report in the modern office environment is considered amateurish and unprofessional. Cursive is not used in formal correspondence anymore. What little formal correspondence still occurs is almost exclusively typed. People don't WRITE personal letters anymore, with that form of communication being nearly entirely eliminated in favor of typing. Heck, we don't even use it in education. When I was teaching (college) courses, I'd occasionally have a student hand me a paper that was completely handwritten, often using cursive writing. I would always, without exception, hand them the paper back and tell them to type it up on a computer and turn it in again. My syllabus prohibited hand written assignments, as did the syllabi of nearly every instructor I worked with. I usually let students slide ONCE by giving them an extra day (so they wouldn't take a hit for it being late), but that was as far as my graciousness extended. Do it twice and you take a 10% per day late assignment hit.

Cursive has no practical place in the modern world, which is why it's no longer taught in many states. With all the things schools have to cover, why waste time on something so antiquated and purposeless? Some school districts have maintained it as a fine art, which I have no problem with, but there's no purpose in forcing EVERY kid to study something they'll never use again.

[braddy]

125. I never heard that, we were taught writing so that we could write to each other, take notes, do

everything that a literate people are supposed to do and to be able to do it quickly.

Printing was for very young children, today we are slipping backwards, our children won't even be able to read the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence,
the Emancipation Proclamation or the Bill of Rights in their true form, even the signatures will puzzle them.

My guess is that the elites will still be able to read and write.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

203. "our children won't even be able to read the {snip}"

I can't even read them now. The National Archives is a few blocks away. A few times each year, I go look at those documents. They are badly faded. Even if they weren't faded, the writing would be hard to decipher. You know what's worse? Magna Carta. Tiny, tiny words. In Latin too.

[braddy]

208. We didn't write the Magna Carta, and not many of us have it hanging on our walls and live

under it and refer to it constantly and use it it frequently and measure candidates and legislation on it.

[bhikkhu]

172. You do understand that cursive and printing are different forms of writing?

I learned cursive like everyone else in school, along with typing (this was well before PC's). I found cursive less legible and slower to write, so like most of the people I went to school with I never used it outside of school. That doesn't have anything to do with knowing how to write.

[braddy]

187. What world is that where people don't write? I have never seen that, besides they aren't

teaching them to write anymore.

[Journeyman]

6. Both of my children learned to write beautifully in school. . .

One child was in a private school from kindergarten through high school, the other left the private school for public education in the 4th grade. My handwriting is atrocious (it's part of the reason I became a typographer), so I was quite pleased to see my children both flourish in writing. The youngest, who attended public school, now prints her handwritten text, like I do, but can do cursive when she feels inclined. The eldest has beautiful handwriting, and will help her two daughters develop theirs as well when the time is right.

I don't know if my granddaughter's school teaches cursive or not. I'll have to ask my daughter.

[LibDemAlways]

8. I'm a substitute teacher in California. In the

district where I teach, cursive writing is taught in 3rd grade, and kids are required to use cursive in class assignments from 3rd on up through high school.

[romanic]

9. The only time I use cursive

is when I'm using my signature to sign papers, forms, etc.

I haven't really written anything extensively in cursive. However I do believe learning how to do cursive and writing in that style improves one's handwriting skills in general, so the fact that some schools don't teach it at all is kind of a problem.

[Bayard]

10. I agree with you

Although my handwriting was much better in grade school than it is now (I'm told it looks like a doctor's). I feel the same way about my books--don't want any part of a Kindle. There's something about the feel, look, smell, of a book that you can't get on a screen.

Are kids still doing art classes? There's also nothing like the smell of oil paints, the feel of charcoal scratching over paper, seeing images appear under your fingers. I also understand schools are losing music and athletic programs. When I was in grade school, we made regular bus trips to the Louisville Orchestra, plays, the planetarium. We didn't pay for any of it, except maybe lunch. And this was a small, mostly blue collar, town.

I don't have kids, but it is so sad that younger generations are missing out on these wonderments.

[TheDormouse]

11. They don't teach how to use slide rules or abacuses anymore either ...

Personally, I think they should teach how to read cursive. But teaching how to write it is a waste of time. That should be something people learn on their own.
Most kids still do have parents and grandparents these days, don't they?

[TheDormouse]

58. oh, and in case u didn't get the memo, they don't teach hieroglyphics anymore either

[MissB]

12. My kids had to learn italic cursive

(aka cursive italic)

It seems more difficult than looped cursive, but it's what our district taught in 7th/8th grades.

My oldest is a senior in high school so this is fairly recent.

[Scootaloo]

13. Did you use quills dipped in ink when you were in school?

'Cause the entire point of cursive is to keep the nib on the paper to prevent ink droplets and spatters. It was preserved into the era of ball-point pens purely out of a sense of tradition, and certainly not out of any actual usefulness. Sort of like the QWERTY key arrangement.

It's a "fix" to a technological flaw that our society no longer suffers. Complaining about a lack of cursive is like complaining that your flat-screen TV doesn't come with rabbit ear antenna.

[ronnie624]

15. Fascinating. I had no idea.

I learned cursive in school, but I always print. Legibility is my main concern.

[Mariana]

205. I always print too, and have done since about 7th grade

when I was no longer required to use cursive in school. I can print much faster than I can write in cursive. My handwriting, both cursive and lettered, is neat and legible, but it tends to slant to the left. When I had to use cursive for school assignments, I got docked points for that.

[dchill]

20. Well, apparently, not only can't they write it...

They can't read it. That's a problem.

[kentauros]

26. How many books are written in cursive?

I can't think of a single book I own that's written in cursive (and I have hundreds of books.) And, other than a handful of people who like to use any of the cursive-fonts out there on their websites or blogs, I really don't see it much at all any more.

Hand-printing, on the other hand, is encountered much more often, such as on chalk menus and the like.

And if a teacher knows their class, then she or he will just switch to printing on the chalk-board. So, not a problem after all

[Humanist_Activist]

27. Shit, I couldn't and still can't read my own damned handwriting in cursive...

horrible penmanship, but fuck it, switched over to typing and haven't looked back.

[WolverineDG]

65. Yup, my cousin's kids can't read anything written in cursive

I was at a movie house where the servers come in & give you refills on request. I wrote mine on the card supplied & the server told me I "had" to print because he couldn't read cursive!

[gollygee]

87. My kids can read cursive

I don't know how widespread this is. It isn't that hard to figure out, once you know how to read printing.

[Orrex]

129. Really? What other fonts can't they read?

Have we doomed ourselves to reading only Times New Roman? Or can we in fact parse other fonts through some magical process?

How is it that I, who couldn't write a sentence in cursive if my life depended on it, can still read cursive as readily as I read COMIC SANS or ARIAL BOLD?

[DamnYankeeInHouston]

40. Cursive writing is much faster than printing because you don't keep lifting your pen.

Printing is easier to read. Cursive is easier to write.

[obamanut2012]

98. Exactly -- THANK YOU

[Adrahil]

217. Yep... An outdated technique, IMO. NT

[LeftyMom]

14. Language is always changing. Handwriting, the way we pronounce words, their meanings,

grammar, all of it.

This is English:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_English#/media/File:Beowulf.firstpage.jpeg

So is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_English#/media/File:Wife-of-Bath-ms.jpg

Shakespeare and the King James bible are modern English.

[hunter]

16. I considered it a form of torture.

I seem to be missing the processing circuitry that makes cursive an optimal writing system for many people. My ordinary non-cursive handwriting isn't much better, but people are able to read it, and more importantly I can read it myself if I'm taking notes and such.

I made a huge effort practicing cursive, trying to "get it," being forced to rewrite papers, but nothing came of it.

Demands that I write in cursive, especially on quizzes and tests, seriously damaged my grades and enthusiasm for school, maybe almost as much as the bullies who called me "queerbait" and frequently beat me bloody. I was an odd, squeaky, skinny, highly reactive kid.

One of my eighth grade teachers was among the worst. He seemed to think if I mastered cursive, looked him in the eye, and acted "like a man," then all my problems would magically go away.

All my problems with him did go away when he took me out into the hallway one day to lecture me and I ran off, jumped the fence, and vanished.

Frantic school administrators called my mom who reassured them I'd probably be home for dinner, and I was. A school counselor who'd known me since fifth grade had a talk with the teacher, and he backed off, but it was also clear he wasn't adapting, he was simply writing me off as one of the retarded kids, some kind of idiot savant unreachable by his method of teaching.

Later I quit high school for college, and it was one of the better decisions I've made in my life. I typed all my papers, and later used computers, and nobody ever knocked a grade off exams and quizzes for poor handwriting.

My great aunt especially, and some of my other elderly relatives had lovely handwriting. I do think it's an art worth preserving, but it's not for everybody.

For Intelligent Children With Autism, Handwriting Is Barrier

For most kids, learning handwriting can be dull and repetitive, but it's a task mastered midway through elementary school.

For many children with autism, though -- even those with higher IQs than most -- handwriting becomes an arduous chore, because the very act of writing letters takes them so long to do.

A new study out this week in the journal Neurology explains some of the reasons for that phenomenon -- and why bad handwriting might even lead to nonverbal communication problems.

While researchers may have realized that many autistic children have bad handwriting, they did not know if it related to their autism, or whether it was a problem understanding the forming of words, or whether it had to do with motor skills.

--more--

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/AutismNews/autistic-children-handwriting-biggest-challenge/story?id=9036125

[Kittycat]

23. This^^

My son is 2e. He keeps failing his OT goals, and struggles profoundly with writing and hand skills. His exec functioning is pretty terrible as well, so we had him approved for a Chromebook or iPad at his last iep mtg. They're doing his testing now to see what fits best.

[forjusticethunders]

57. I'm autistic and it took me until I was 18 to learn cursive on my own

Granted my teachers kind of glossed it over because I moved schools so much.

[wickerwoman]

183. Me too.

I taught myself when I was 5 and then spent what felt like most of the second grade bored shitless while everyone else learned.

I have no problem with all of that time being replaced by a skill that is actually relevant to the 21st century. We don't teach Latin in primary school anymore either and yet somehow people are still able to read it (i.e. by studying it in college if they are interested in it). It's not like the texts curl up and disappear if not every single student learns how to read them.

[LeftishBrit]

196. Not only a barrier to those with autism, but with any motor co-ordination difficulty

Handwriting was my worst thing at school: I was good at reading, spelling, arithmetic, etc. but had serious trouble with the physical act of handwriting. Especially when we were required to use a fountain pen: fountain pens may improve writing in those who are already good at it, but for people like me, turn an ugly but legible handwriting into an illegible blot. Word processors practically saved my life!

[raccoon]

224. For left-handed people, cursive can also be PITA. when I was a kid

in elementary school (1960's), I was a leftie trying to write in a desk made for right-handed
kids. There was no such thing, the the world I lived in, as a left-handed desk (or, for that matter, left-handed scissors. I learned to use right-handed scissors with my right hand.)

Teachers bitched at me about my handwriting and crossed words wrong on spelling tests that weren't wrong, they just didn't like it that I made "e" loops too high.

[Thor_MN]

17. Cursive is merely a font in the computer age.

I'd rather see them focus on being able to compose a decent sentence than copy text in a pretty font. The days of being a scribe were over long ago. Quality of the content is more important to me than the looks of it.

Years ago they did a study that showed the quality of writing of Macintosh users was lower than that of PC users in college aged students. The conclusion was that the Mac users spent more time trying to make their papers look pretty than the PC users.

Cursive is trying to make words look pretty and what another poster said, not getting globs of ink by lifting your quill off the paper.

[pinboy3niner]

18. I think you mean...

𝓮𝓵𝓲𝓬𝓲𝓽

[kentauros]

31. In your case, that would be

[font face="Old English Text MT"]ILLICIT[/font]

[global1]

32. That Was Compliments Of Auto-Correction On My Computer....

This I guess in another important skill we can stop teaching as well thanks to computers. It did - however - elicit a reaction here.

[kentauros]

35. And I think you meant to reply to pinboy.

I was calling him illicit

[jberryhill]

117. You should post in cursive, then

[treestar]

112. I was trying to think of an illicit way to reply to this OP

[pinboy3niner]

147. Maybe you could try taking some poetic licentious

[kentauros]

177. -ness.

As in Loch.

[Kittycat]

19. Parents claim and complain about this in my district, not true

They teach it here in 2nd grade. It's not mandatory, and that's the difference here. The rule is by teacher, school, district or state, depending on how you oversee curriculum standards. Cursive is not a core requirement for use.

My issue is spelling. There is literally no spelling in our new ELA. Absolutely horrible craptastic shit. And my son has a significant speech defecit (low tone & Aspergers), which only makes it worse. Drives me mad.

[unc70]

50. Deficit, not defecit

Since spelling is your issue.

[C Moon]

21. I cursed a lot in school.

...sorry.

[Mariana]

22. Anyone who wants to learn cursive

because they like to read old documents for whatever reason, or want to write that way, can certainly learn to do so. It's not that hard for an adult, and instruction books are available and inexpensive. There's no need to spend precious school time making the children learn unnecessary, obsolete skills.

Besides, it's not as if everyone was learning to write legibly in cursive when they were spending countless hours teaching it in school. All those forms say "Please Print" for a reason.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

24. I know an English teacher who signs their name in perfect cursive....

[font size=5 face=script]I pointed out the ease that it can be forged and that made them think.[/font]

[Simongren]

25. If you are interested in history or genealogy, cursive is a must

The schools where I am are arguing about cursive right now, with many people saying it is old and outdated and we shouldn't teach it.
Wouldn't you rather read the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution for yourself rather than hope that the translation you get is accurate?

[Mariana]

207. If you are interested in history or genealogy

then you will learn to read cursive. As I said elsewhere on the thread, people learn all kinds of specialized skills in order to pursue their work or their hobbies. If you are interested in electronics, you will learn to read schematics. If you are interested in knitting, you will learn to read knitting patterns. If you are interested in history or genealogy, you will learn to read cursive in its various forms. It doesn't follow that all those things must be taught in school.

[UtahJosh]

28. It's useful if you want to write a letter.

I realize that's a dying art, but if you want to write a thank you note, for example, there's simply no other adult way to do it. A typewritten letter is impersonal. A printed one, juvenile. Cursive is the only proper way to handle such a task.

In business, that can be the difference between landing a job or being kicked to the curb. The ability to write a letter is kind of an important skill to retain even if you don't use it.

I'm frankly baffled by the folks who dismiss it these days, but then again I'm sure some folks think learning Pi or multiplication is unnecessary too. To me it comes down to basic knowledge, and yes being able to pen a proper letter is basic knowledge imho.

[HereSince1628]

34. I've never encountered a hand-written cover-letter for a job.

I've also never seen a hand-written curriculum vitae.

[mainer]

78. It appears that you and I are in the minority

I agree that writing a proper note will count for a lot when it comes to functioning in the job market beyond bottom wage.

[kentauros]

30. I'm outraged! Outraged, I tell ya!

No, actually I'm not

If cursive is so important, then insist that art classes are returned to the curricula, with calligraphy as a mandatory part of it. Have the kids learn how to illuminate manuscripts, including the use of gold leaf (which they should learn how to hammer out themselves, too.) They could also be taught how to make paper, which they'll need for their manuscripts.

Maybe even add another class of hand-drafting, so the kids can learn proper architectural printing as well as standard hand-printing. Points taken off for too much smudging because the student didn't use their pounce bag properly. Then teach them how to use the Leroy Lettering template and pen guide as well as how not to burn through the velum and mylar with their electric eraser.

Most of the kidding aside, bring the art classes back with instruction in calligraphy. Also bring back Latin before the kids learn any other language. Once you learn how to conjugate the verb, you can do pretty much anything

[So Far From Heaven]

219. Illuminate? With what, LED's? (nt)

[kentauros]

222. No. With gold and silver.

An illuminated manuscript is a manuscript in which the text is supplemented with such decoration as initials, borders (marginalia) and miniature illustrations. In the strictest definition, the term refers only to manuscripts decorated with gold or silver; but in both common usage and modern scholarship, the term refers to any decorated or illustrated manuscript from Western traditions.

[Marrah_G]

33. Times change, needs change

[malaise]

36. I don't get but then I too am

old school. What happens when there is a massive power cut following some disaster?

You do have a point

[apcalc]

37. Writing styles/ methods are fluid

ever go back and read written documents like the Declaration of Independence?

I found the style and cursive text difficult at times to read. When I read it in print it is much better.

I suppose there is a need for cursive, signing your name for instance, but in general, I'm ok with the trend.

[obamanut2012]

39. Your signature can literally and legally just be an X

It doesn't have to be signed, it can be printed.

I agree with you -- am OK with the trend!

[obamanut2012]

38. Good -- a total waste of classroom time considering we don't use quills any more

Or fountain pens. That's why it was invented.

It's so not necessary anymore. When I have to take written notes, I print, and I spent many, many hours learning cursive decades ago. Kids today have literally no use for it. They can learn it as a hobby if they want to.

There are many, many other exercises to teach kids fine-motor skills.

[jberryhill]

41. "I'd like to illicit some response"

Um, okay. Go to the fish market at midnight. Wear a blue shirt. You'll meet a guy who says "Feels chilly tonight" and you say "it's just the fog". Then he'll tell you where to meet me for my response. Come alone and make sure you aren't followed.

Elicit

Illicit

Not the same word.

[raccoon]

42. You're an old fuddy duddy and just not with the times. LOL. Just kidding.

I'm another old fuddy duddy, but I don't think cursive writing is really needed any more.

If somebody ardently wants to learn it, they can.

[global1]

44. No Need To Kid - I Am An Old Fuddy Duddy - A Relic Of The Past - Not With The Times....

After all - computers are taking everything over. Robotics have replaced people in factories, stores and in the home. We don't need to go to a store anymore - just do your shopping on-line. The Pea-Pod drone will bring your groceries to you. A drone from Amazon will drop off your new computer to you. We'll pay with bitcoin. Self-driving cars will even give us more time to spend on our computers. Beam me up Scottie. When will they be implanting a sensor into our bodies so we can hook up to a computer and get diagnosed for health problems? Doctors will just reprogram or reboot us. Hey - maybe even 'virtual restaurants' where we can see a picture of food and have it sent through our health sensor to satisfy our hunger with more 'bytes'.

Social media has replaced 'eye to eye' - 'person to person' contact. I wonder how Facebook will be in the future when we'll be able to tell our friends how wonderful it is to do nothing anymore. Virtual reality will replace vacations.

Have a question - don't look it up - just ask Siri. Hell - I can stay in the comfort of my own home and be virtually anywhere in the world. What are we going to do when we have all this time on our hands? Won't need to read - cause through that same health sensor - we'll be able to send knowledge. No need for schools at all anymore. Be damned cursive.

Reminds me of the Edward G. Robinson scene in the movie Soylent Green - where he went to the supermarket to die. Except we won't even have to be placed in a room with a big screen or music piped in. We just put on our virtual reality headset and drift off into a deep, deep, sleep.

Sports - we don't need no stinking sports either. Just join a fantasy league. After all we're so bored with actual sporting events now we have to create our own reality.

We don't even need actors to entertain us either. We've got computer graphics that can create anything or anybody we want to have entertain us now.

No need for Medicare. No need for Social Security. We won't get sick. We won't get old. Don't worry about the crumbling infrastructure as we won't be venturing out of our homes to even experience it.

Hell we could have a 'virtual government' as well. We can have a 'fantasy congress' - where we can pick our own politicians and pick our own outcomes. Come to think about it - we probably have a 'fantasy congress' right now. What will the 1%'ers do with all their money? Who will they pay off? Will computer programmers be the 1%er's of the future?

The oldest profession will even die out when we figure out computer generated sex. Wonder what the porn of the future will be?

Where is all this going? Where will it end? Gee - look where all my creative energy has taken me!!!!

[raccoon]

60. You oughta write science fiction! nt

[global1]

63. Read It Again - We're Not Too Far Away From What You're Calling Science Fiction......nt

[MowCowWhoHow III]

43. The skill will be preserved by the tattooists.

Probably.

[lagomorph777]

46. I wonder how his 2nd wife "Alice" feels about that tattoo.

[lagomorph777]

45. They taught it to me many years ago but I never used it.

I prefer my writing to be legible. And in my profession, there is no place for cursive.

[Chan790]

47. I actually fought for like 4 years to get our town to take it out of the curriculum.

It's a waste of time and resources to teach. Just like when my mother was in school and learned to use a slide rule. She is astonished that I don't know how to use one...and I can honestly say it has never, not even once, been an issue. I can write cursive...I never really do but I know how...one of my younger female friends can't and the only use I've had for cursive lately is to write notes that she can't read.

It's better than using code. I wrote "Be Quiet" and she read it back to me as Bi 2iiitt. It probably doesn't help that I don't dot my i's.

[LiberalEsto]

49. They don't learn multiplication tables either

Hooray for ignorance!

[CrispyQ]

51. A lot of schools don't teach civics, either.

Something that impacts every aspect of your life!

[ghostsinthemachine]

52. The don't treach blacksmithing either

Another unnecessary skill. They should teach typing, starting in the first grade.

[The2ndWheel]

56. Forget typing, just teach thumbing

At some point, we won't need our thumbs either(Charlie, they took my thumb!), we'll all just think the words onto the screen. Then we won't need the screen after that, since we'll all be hooked into the central hub directly from our brain. We're probably already in a simulation. If so, holy crap, I'm in the boring one, where I'm typing about the death of the already previously outdated cursive writing.

[GummyBearz]

54. I'm glad they don't

It will be sweet to have this secret code language that adults can read but younger people cannot.

[me b zola]

69. We are 21st century code talkers

It broke my heart when I wrote a letter to my grandson and he told that he needed his mother to translate for him.

[GummyBearz]

72. I have no doubt it is true

I am 34 years old, my grandmother (90 year old) writes me letters in cursive. I will admit there are some words that I have to "decode" using the surrounding context. The generation below me is likely less possible to do it, as you describe.

[Blue_Tires]

59. You're only just now learning this?

[mainer]

62. How will they write proper thank-you notes?

An email just won't do.

There are some social conventions that really can't be shirked, at risk of looking like an oaf.

I write cursive all the time, just as part of social interactions.

And when the power goes out, what are we supposed to do if we don't know how to write with pen and paper?

What about journaling? What if you're on a camping trip and you want to record your thoughts in a notebook?

[raccoon]

64. To answer your two questions, you could print. nt

[mainer]

66. Printing is slow and childish looking. Like a serial killer note!

I think that a child who doesn't learn cursive is being handicapped later in life if he hopes to advance. It's like not knowing which knife and fork to use at a business dinner, or not knowing a foreign language. None of these things is necessary for survival, but what are we, savages who only learn how to hunt and kill our food?

[kentauros]

134. You've never seen a draftsman or architect print then

[mahatmakanejeeves]

204. I love the lettering on old patent applications.

It was so stylized.

[kentauros]

214. From looking at the smaller numbering on that image

I would guess that the draftsman used a Leroy Lettering device (plus from the year of 1987, being before AutoCAD.) It's a means of mechanical lettering, so that all of your inked lettering has the same quality. Inked lettering on vellum usually requires more time due to having to wait for the ink to dry and because you are trying to keep it all of the highest quality.

Earlier patent drawings I've seen used different fonts that had serifs. So, even more work had to be put into writing them. It would have been quite slow working without a template or mechanical lettering device. And for all I know, they didn't use ink, just a really sharp 4B hardness, 2mm pencil lead

[dionysus]

138. i underdstand where you're coming from but those are societal norms of the past.. i wrote thank you

notes as a kid, sadly I don't think many parents have their kids write them any more.... as our societies become more technologically advanced, in ways it becomes less elaborate...

[nadine_mn]

231. Depends on the printer

I have a friend with whom I correspond whose printing looks like it was typed - it is perfectly straight and beautiful. I love receiving her letters because her printing is so beautiful.

My husband writes in cursive it looks like he has just learned to write.

I think one class on cursive writing is not going to derail our kids' education - and I do love reading handwritten notes.

[abelenkpe]

122. Seriously?

One can design beautiful personalized thank you cards in photoshop to make the average thank you card look pedestrian. Journals? Again...iPad. Power goes out? Solar charger. Surely you know all this though and are just being sarcastic. Or deliberately archaic.

[dionysus]

139. they may simply be older. i am 38 and remember writing thank you notes as a kid. those old customs

of the past are fading away...
for folks those things may be beyond their skill level.

btw, not many people can afford photoshop.. I was lucky to inherit a ton of software when our company got bought. have you seen what they charge for photoshop in the store? several hundred bones!

[abelenkpe]

140. Is it? There's also Gimp which is free and similar to photoshop

Pretty sure I spend 9.99 a month for photoshop, but use it my profession.

But I see what you are saying. Even without tech personal cards are always appreciated. That's probably what they were saying though too. A handwritten thank you is more personal for them. People still give personal cards and images to one another. But it's not customary. You're right about that as well.

[dionysus]

141. photoshop is subscription now? i think i have photoshop cs2 which has to be quite old by now...

[abelenkpe]

145. O yeah! I remember that version

It's actually one to keep. Newer versions have lots of sweet additional tools for photo manipulation and some nice tools for animation but cs2 has pretty much all one needs. Think all Adobe products have moved to subscription based products. Did not want to do that at first but it's actually worked out well.

[dionysus]

146. there's soooo much stuff an application like PS can do, if you're not an expert, you only end up

using a miniscule % of what the app can do... so old versions are probably just fine for ppl like me...

[kentauros]

179. I still use CS2.

The latest has a greater emphasis on custom brushes and 3D capability. I don't need the 3D stuff, and do all of the artistic work in Corel Painter 2015. That does cost several hundred, but it's still not a subscription to use it.

[Egnever]

156. Time marches on

https://www.canva.com/create/cards/

Free greeting card creator online.

Cost nothing.

It is impossible to keep up with the Web.

[kentauros]

180. Free Graph/Grid paper generator

It makes a PDF of the paper you want so you can print as much as you like

Free Online Graph Paper / Grid Paper PDFs

[mainer]

67. We don't need to know a foreign language. We don't need table manners.

We don't need to know literature. We don't need to know a lot of things.

But they're useful if you ever hope to get beyond a low-wage job.

[Chan790]

95. Interesting that you bring up foreign languages.

It's another one of those things that isn't being included in elementary education curricula in order to keep class-time dedicated to cursive.

[mainer]

96. I learned a foreign language and cursive and blind typing

And knew how to read music by the time I was twelve. All in public school. How did learning cursive keep me from learning all those other things? Cursive takes almost no time at all. It's not displacing anything.

I think teachers just don't want to teach it because it's extra work for THEM.

[Chan790]

99. It's on average 30-45 minutes a week...

those minutes don't come from nowhere. They are minutes that are not dedicated to other educational pursuits out of an allotted 1,800 minutes a week (5 days of 6 hours. 5x6x60=1800) of public school time.

You're going to have to argue more than the nostalgia that you seem to have for cursive or some argument that not learning it is uncivilized if you want to waste an average of 18 hours/year for grade school students on it. We don't have time to waste on something that adds no value whatsoever to the educational experience or advancement during school nor later in life.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

124. All right, all right; I'll get off your lawn.

[raccoon]

225. I love your poster. nt

[killbotfactory]

68. I've never used cursive outside of elementary school when it was taught to me

and I've never had to read a handwritten document that was written in cursive

[Captain Stern]

71. I'm ok with them not teaching cursive.

Personally, I haven't had to write anything in cursive in over thirty years, other than my signature. When I write something by hand, I print, and I prefer others print as well. I already can't read most people's cursive....not because I don't know how the letters are supposed to look, but because most people's cursive doesn't look anything like it's supposed to. It seems most people's cursive evolves over the years, until they are the only ones that can decipher it.

Additionally, I can't think of a single important thing that is available to read only in cursive. Most, if not all, important historical documents are available in print. I've never had to read a cursive website, a cursive novel, or fill out any cursive legal documents.

I think that any time that is devoted to teaching children cursive, is time that could be better spent teaching them something else.

[whatthehey]

74. They don't teach kids how to use a wax tablet and stylus any more either

The skills are about analogous. Outside a very few dated companies in dated industries, the ability to write, let alone the far less central ability to write in a flowing hand, is not that necessary. I should know. I lost the use of my right side, including my hand, 6 years ago. I've been employed in senior management corporate jobs every day since. My writing ability is a scrawled signature and laborious shaky majuscules that look like a 3 year old's and take twenty seconds per word. Hasn't held me back at all.

[TransitJohn]

75. Oh, man! The Doobie Brothers broke up?!?!!? When did that happen?!?!?!?!!??

[KamaAina]

136. One of San Jose's few contributions to civilization.

Along with Eggo waffles and Chuck E. Cheese.

[tonyt53]

76. Up to the states or school systems.

My handwriting is so bad that it makes no difference whether I write cursive or not. Still sucks.

[frogmarch]

80. Mine too.

It always has.

In elementary school I learned how to write in cursive using the Palmer Penmanship method, but my handwriting didn't look much like Palmer Penmanship writing. Neither did any other kid's writing that knew of. Everyone's handwriting was different from each other's, but we could read each other's writing anyway. Well, sometimes no one could read mine because it so sloppy, but that's beside the point.

There are more important things to learn in school than how to write in cursive. Sooner or later most people will learn how on their own, and even if they don't, I'll bet that anyone who can read printed words can also read words in cursive.

[global1]

104. Now That You Said It - That There Are More Important Things To Learn In School Than Cursive....

What are those more important things? What in fact are kids learning in school these days? I've read in the links here that we don't teach civics, art, music, PE. Is it all reading, writing and arithmetic? Do they teach geography and history these days?

As I don't have a kid - I'm kind of curious now. Certainly a lot of my tax monies go to my school district. What's up in schools? What am I paying for?

Is it all computer skills? I know I've said I wish I had access to a computer when I was back in grade school, high school and college. I think about how smart I'd be today. What I find fortunate is that what I really took away from my education is how to continue to educate myself these days. I learned how to learn. As such, I've been able to pick up most books now and I learn something new every day.

I'm really being sincere here - I don't have the foggiest as to what is going on in school these days.

Is there any link out there that spells out the curriculum - grades K to 8? What's going on in the high schools? It's no wonder that I've heard people say that the college degree is equivalent to what we learned in high school.

One of the things I really think is important is teaching children how to think. Teaching them how to make decisions. Good judgement.

But I'm still amazed at how many teens that work the fast food places and other jobs that involve money - don't know how to make change unless the cash register shows them what amount they must give back to the customer.

[frogmarch]

131. I've been wondering too.

My kids and grandkids are all grown and my greats are too young to go to school, so I don't know what kids are learning in school these days. I suppose computer skills are right up there, even for the young ones.

I hope someone who knows what's being taught in school these days will tell us. The other day, I heard a friend's granddaughter who's a college sophomore say "we was" several times, and it made me cringe. She fixed a problem I was having with my computer in nothing flat, so I suppose she'll do all right just the same.

[mainer]

83. Are kids stupider these days, or what?

When I attended California public schools as a kid, by the age of 12, I (and most of my classmates) had learned cursive as well as blind- typing, a foreign language, and I could read music and play two instruments. This was all offered and taught in my elementary school.

But now, our poor little kids are just too -- what, dumb? too busy? -- to learn those skills. First we decided that music was unnecessary in schools. Then we decided foreign languages weren't mandatory. And these have been replaced with what, exactly? Are our kids any more able to cope with the job market?

The young brain is amazingly elastic and able to absorb so much. Instead of filling it with knowledge, the current philosophy is to make it "easier" for them in school.

[randome]

84. It's cultural evolution at work. And it's the Digital Age.

I write my name only once every 2 weeks: a check to my mother. If it wasn't for that, I would have no need to ever sign anything ever again. All my bills are paid electronically. Every one of them. I keep an online eye on my account.

And I'm 57. Younger generations probably have even less need to sign things unless they're opting in for health insurance or something. So maybe 5 or 6 times a year total?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

[mainer]

92. Think of all those poor Asian kids learning Kanji

They would laugh at Americans who think that learning cursive is just too much for their little heads.

Have kids in Singapore and Taiwan and Korea fallen behind in math and computer skills? After devoting years to learning to write archaic characters?

[yuiyoshida]

93. some people don't know how to address

an envelope for postal usage. Where does the stamp go, should there be a return address? Where does that go.

I learned that early in life, and its not taught any longer. Amazing isn't it?

[mainer]

97. Those who do learn cursive and a foreign language and music...

will just have a better crack at a broader job market. Everyone else will be a cube rat.

[Captain Stern]

105. I'm curious...which jobs does one have a better crack at for knowing cursive?

The only one I can think of is Calligraphy teacher.

[Chiquitita]

109. it's neurological.

Who would have thunk that fine motor skills with the hands are actually part of how our brains become wired? Also, it is proven that students who take cursive notes remember more than students who take their class notes via keyboard.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/04/30/should-schools-require-children-to-learn-cursive/the-benefits-of-cursive-go-beyond-writing

[mainer]

120. And this. Yes, it's neurological.

First graders who learned to write in cursive received higher scores in reading words and in spelling than a comparable group who learned to write in manuscript. One possible explanation is the continuity of movement in cursive, whereas in manuscript writing attention is given to single letters. The continuous line in writing a word provides kinesthetic feedback about the shape of the words as a whole, which is absent in manuscript writing. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1977-28241-001

[Chiquitita]

150. thanks, that's what I meant to point out

we really need to study more how handwriting practice affects brain development, thinking, memory, before declaring it obsolete. We may be acting out of ignorance, not science at all.

[Orrex]

121. Music? Maybe. Cursive? Garbage.

At least, before I swallow the claim of neurological superiority, I'd need to see cursive indoctrination compared empirically against training in other fine motor skills. Teach them juggling or needlepoint or some other skill that isn't simply an exercise in brutal futility.

Alternatively, develop a system of writing that isn't literally designed to put southpaws at a disadvantage.

[Chiquitita]

154. I'm talking about handwriting

and practicing writing by hand. No doubt southpaws have had to put up with a lot -- interesting unrelated fact: our last three presidents have been left-handed.

I'm a college teacher and I see the difference in performance between students who take notes by hand, and those who take notes on a computer. If I give an end of the class quiz after a 30 minute session the hand writers do better. Why? Because students can type so fast they write down every word, without synthesizing and picking out main ideas -- they write like a transcription and don't do the work of shortening and selecting what to write down. Hand writers are slower and so they think and choose as they jot down.

Here's a take on it from Scientific American: "Students who used longhand remembered more and had a deeper understanding of the material"

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-learning-secret-don-t-take-notes-with-a-laptop/

[Orrex]

157. Now you're shifting to a very different skill

We're not discussing college students taking notes on computer; we're about forcing school age children to learn a hobby skill that will be useless to them almost immediately after learning it.

The weeks that were spent on this foolish diversion during my years in school could have been better used in any number of ways. If it had been offered as an elective, rather than a daily mandatory reminder that lefties are deficient, then I would certainly have skipped it, and I'd be no worse for it.

[Chiquitita]

165. After replying to you I was discussing it with my husband,

who is a second grade public school teacher, and came to realize better what you meant and how I've been mixing my defense of writing longhand and my worries about cursive ed. So thanks.

My husband is also left handed and told me how frustrating cursive learning was for him (interestingly in Spain where he's from, they never even teach kids to print, they just teach cursive from the beginning).

What he thinks, and I agree, is that having K-12 students and beyond use handwriting for a variety of activities is good for visual design skills, creativity, and concentration. And writing in longhand (like many motor skills) has a positive effect on neurological development, memory and thought processing. My revised stance would be that handwriting in the elementary years is very important, but forcing students to master cursive is unneeded. Exposing them to cursive would be enriching.

[Orrex]

173. Well I give that a big thumbs up!

I appreciate you taking a second look at it, especially since your left-handed husband is by his very nature in league with dark forces.

[Captain Stern]

198. That makes sense.

Since the students that are typing their notes are capable of so many more words per minute, they are probably concentrating on getting as much typed as possible...maybe even trying to get the entire lecture (quantity over quality). I'd argue that not only are they not synthesizing the main ideas, but that they might not even be hearing them. The students that are taking notes by hand, have to be more selective in what they write down, and probably spend more time actually listening to the lecture.

Interestingly enough, I found that through my later years in school, I was actually better off by taking less notes. I'd write down things I might have to memorize (dates, quantities, etc), but other than that I was better off simply listening to the lecture, and asking questions.

[raccoon]

226. A-fricking-men!

develop a system of writing that isn't literally designed to put southpaws at a disadvantage.

[Captain Stern]

127. That's interesting, and very well may be true.

But which jobs do people have a better chance at because they learn cursive? I don't think there are very many at all.

I suppose you could make the argument that knowing cursive might give someone a slight advantage academically over the student that doesn't learn cursive, and that that could lead to slightly better overall job prospects. But when it gets to the point where most people don't know cursive any more, even that slight advantage would become meaningless.

I'd wager that in most professions right now, an employer doesn't know whether or not someone that applied for a position knows cursive until after the person is hired......if they ever find out at all. I work in a building that has about forty people in it. I interact with about twenty of them on a weekly basis. If none of them knew cursive, I wouldn't know it. And if I didn't know cursive, none of them would know it.

[Chiquitita]

149. a better brain can mean better outcomes

for work, thinking, citizenship, health... but hey, tapping on buttons is cool too.

[Captain Stern]

197. Of course it can.

But isn't it possible that the hundreds and hundreds of hours that kids spend now learning a skill that they will never use, could be spent doing something that helps them even more?

[hunter]

167. I take notes by hand, the usefulness of them is in the sketches.

How on earth would anyone take notes with a keyboard for a physics, geology, or biology class?

My first two years in college I wanted to be a television engineer. I switched to biology, with an emphasis in evolutionary biology.

Sketches, graphs, schematics, and math equations were the meat of all my notes.

[milestogo]

103. Elicit, not illicit

[global1]

106. Read Above In The Responses To My OP You Will Find The Explanation As To Why That Occurred...nt

[treestar]

108. People should definitely learn to write, whether print or cursive

Granted everything is keyboard but you still might need to write something down. A total transition wouldn't be until they can no longer sell notepads and pens. I guess that day will come, oh my.

[Atman]

110. "Penmanship" was my favorite class as a kid.

I grew up loving letterforms. My aunt attended RISD (Rhode Island School of Design) and when I was 12 years old she gave me a big wooden typography box she was required to have as part of her design degree. Big 8x10 cards, each featuring a different font (or typeface, as they used to be called). She had to memorize them. I did, too. To this day, I can name just about any classic typeface at first sight (not necessarily those crazy free fonts available online). Anyway, I can still write in cursive pretty damned well...but I can't remember the last time I had the need to. Still, it's sad that it's a skill that is no longer taught. But neither is buggy-whip making or haberdashery.

[liberal N proud]

113. I have not used cursive writing since high school

My profession required us to be able to print before computers and past my signature which barely classifies as cursive is as close as I ever get to it.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

114. Didn't you get my note?

It as written in blue-black ink on 100% rag-content stationery.

[mainer]

116. This will probably turn into a class distinction.

High-powered private schools will continue to teach cursive, just as they continue to teach foreign languages and Latin and music.

Everyone else can just learn keyboarding.

[abelenkpe]

118. No.

Kids are still learning cursive. Yes, they know how to sign their name and read cursive writing. My kids (9 and 11 yrs old) prefer cursive because they can write faster. But they don't write much at all. They use computers and iPads. They record notes. They write their papers and print them out. They take their tests on the iPad. So cursive past second grade is not emphasized as it is not used.

[muriel_volestrangler]

158. If they take test on iPads, does the school provide them if a family can't afford them?

And are the iPads checked for what has been loaded onto them?

[abelenkpe]

168. Yeah the school provides the iPads

All the software is purchased and maintained by the district. The iPads don't leave the classroom. The tests are administered on the iPad.
We did get the school to purchase a couple other programs so we could use them for making video presentations, drawings and animations.
The kids get time to research projects online too but it's very supervised. Also teachers upload homework so that parents and students can log in and never miss out on homework or project dates.
It's nice actually.

[Orrex]

119. Because it's an obsolete skill of minimal value.

They also don't teach Carolingian Miniscule or cuneiform or caligraphy. Shocking!

Other than signing my name, in the past 25 years I have used cursive exactly zero times. Despite the complete atrophy of that skill, I am readily able to read cursive, much the same as I can readily parse other non-manuscript fonts.

I also reject the claim that cursive somehow magically inclines the writer to visualize "the whole word" in a way that's superior to manuscript. It's not as though I ever start a word without knowing how that word will end, so the "whole word" thing is a bunch of hooey.


Let cursive be taught as an elective. There is absolutely no need to waste class time on this obsolete practice.

[basselope]

128. My kid's in second grade

And he hasn't been taught it yet, but to be honest, I wouldn't be that upset if they didn't teach it at all.

I hated learning cursive personally and wouldn't mind my kid not learning it.

[sofa king]

130. OMG I am gonna be rich!

I used to make a really good living as a transcriber of 17th-Century government documents. I did enough of it that eventually I could sight-read it, and for that I billed at $250 an hour, in some rare cases. But there's virtually no market for that.

But imagine if I could make $50 an hour transcribing postcards, letters from grandparents, diaries....

OCR software sucks with printed documents; it might be a hundred years before it can reliably read cursive handwriting (that, by the way, is almost certainly why it's not encouraged by our government any longer--because they can't automatically read it).

This reminds me very much of some of my engineering friends who are making a mint reading and writing FORTRAN and COBOL programs. Just because a form of language falls out of fashion doesn't mean it is no longer critically important to certain people, and when that happens, the prepared get to charge a premium for the skill.

[GOPblows431]

133. That wouldn't really be surprising to me honestly

Our education system has been dumbed down significantly over the past decade or so. Thank the GOP tools for that.

[cleanhippie]

135. They do teach children to write, both print and cursive.

Basing your opinion on something you overheard is willful ignorance of the worst kind.
Do some research, call the school, or (gasp) actually speak to a teacher.


My wife is an elementary school teacher and my daughter is in first grade. They both deal with writing and its in cursive.

[KamaAina]

137. So eventually, no one will be able to read documents written in cursive.

Like this.

[Travis_0004]

160. Wikipedia has translated it into print.

[KamaAina]

161. And Wikipedia is always 100% accurate to a T.

[Mariana]

194. You believe that no one is capable of learning to read cursive

outside of an elementary school classroom?

People who want to knit learn how to read knitting patterns. People who want to work with electronics learn how to read schematics. And people who want to read documents that were written in cursive will learn how to read cursive.

[kentauros]

212. Well, the first three words of that document aren't cursive.

That's calligraphy, and it's print. It is odd in that they italicized it to the left instead of to the right, but it's easy enough to read without knowing how to read cursive.

"Article 1" is more calligraphy, and I would presume from that badly out of focus image that the rest of the article designations are also in calligraphy.

Now I will admit that if the entire document had been written in Old English font, that I would never be able to read it. Of all the fonts one could use in writing, that one is the most illegible of all. Too many embellishments obscuring the primary letter.

And as so many have pointed out, learning cursive can be taught. Just as people who don't speak Slavic languages can learn to read Cyrillic, or people learning Japanese can learn to read kanji, and so on. If you have a need to be able to read a script, you learn it. Simple. As. That.

[muriel_volestrangler]

151. Are American students expected to write essays under exam conditions?

That was a significant part of my education (both school and university). While reports written in you own time may all be done on computers now, we (in Britain) were expected to be able to reproduce our knowledge, or make an argument, in essay form, without a computer (or reference books).

And that meant having to be able to write quickly. 'Printing' just would not be fast enough. I wasn't a fast writer, and I struggled to write as much as was hoped for in a good answer, in the time given. Printing would have been hopeless.

[Jester Messiah]

152. It's no longer a terribly relevant skill.

I still write in cursive because it pleases me to do so, but it's about as relevant as calligraphy anymore. Especially with checks and snail-mail going the way of the dodo. There's little enough in the way of resources for education; we probably shouldn't waste it on obsolete skills.

[glowing]

153. I think more are turning it into an art elective..

Kind of like calligraphy. It's not super essential anymore, but a nice item to have in the tool box. And really it's more deserving of an art class now since most people don't use it or do use computers to relay written info these days.

[TheDormouse]

155. They SHOULD teach driver's ed/rules of the road

Sadly, many schools don't.

[tenderfoot]

162. Hopefully not teaching writing will continue, as those that value it will be able to use it...

to their advantage in the future to retake over the world from the idiocracy that responded to your OP. Rebels can revert to using invisible ink because dolts will have forgotten all about it by that point.

[kwassa]

164. Being able to write has nothing to do with cursive.

Cursive is one medium of writing.

It is form, not content. Good writing is about content, regardless of form.

[whistler162]

166. In the district I work in I had

to look around the Internet to find a few fonts for cursive writing, tracing and blank lined pages, so the teachers could use their PC's and the Smartboard(projector and interactive whiteboard) to teach the subject. New York.

Probably should have stayed for the classes since I never really learned cursive writing in school 40+ years ago. One school district taught it the 2nd half of the year and the school district we moved to taught it the first half of the year.Guess when we moved.

[Prism]

169. The writing isn't has bad as not being able to read it

I haven't written cursive in years (I have what is generously referred to as "doctor's penmanship&quot , but I end up having to read it often enough at work. Neat cursive is easy enough for someone unlearned, but once you get into the sloppy squiggle area of things, it's going to be rough going unless you're used to reading it.

[Arugula Latte]

170. My kids got a few weeks of instruction in cursive in, what, maybe third grade?

They never, ever use it. It's like learning how to use a telegraph now. I find cursive to be a handy tool for writing fast thank you notes and shopping lists, but to my kids it's as useful as a fax machine or a telegraph.

[Nay]

176. It's taught in Richmond, VA schools. My grandchild is learning it in 3rd grade. nt

[HassleCat]

182. No point

Cursive is nothing more than an art form now. Forcing students to learn cursive is the same as forcing them to do calligraphy.

[Digit]

184. I believe it is helpful if all children learn cursive

I love doing research and that involves pouring over old documents. The style of cursive is difficult enough to read in these old documents, but if I was unable to write cursive at all, I am sure I would be unable to read them.
Did I mention the old writing was often beautiful as well?

[Jim Beard]

185. I bought my grandsons wrist watches this year, not digital, they are going to learn to tell

time on a REAL watch. I never use my smart phone for time when I have it very quickly by just looking down. They can use the other type watches later.

One more new computerized gizmo is is the camera. cell cameras are ok but you need a real one for quality but there is one thing that sucks and that is the glare on the screen to focus plus frame the picture. I tried to shoot movies of low flying Sandhill Cranes but it was impossible. I can not affor a high dollar SLR so I looked for cameras that had an old fashioned viewfinder that acted like a SLR with the images corresponding to the telephoto and the wide angle.

This has not been about cursive writing but about change and how to adapt.

Some are so in love with their gadgets that they eagerly willing to pay more taxes. Yes, they think using a credit card swiper for a phone at their garage sale is wonderful.

Sometimes I just want some blow money, that not deposited in my checking account.

[WestCoastLib]

192. I honestly can't tell if this post is satire or not.

[Jim Beard]

206. It is NOT satire.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

201. Re: a real watch.

There are free analog clock apps for tablets. I have the Swiss railway clock app on my tablets.

I still carry a Sony CLIÉ PEG-SJ22 around with me. They're great. I have it set so that when you turn it on, it opens up to the analog world clock option.

[RB TexLa]

190. They don't teach butter churning or candle making either

[Jim Beard]

191. I was just thinking of the success US converting to the metric system

[kentauros]

211. I can think of two reasons why that didn't work here.

One, absolute, irrational stubbornness.
Two, the method of implementing it was wrong. People were asked to convert, when they should have been asked to accept.

Getting people to accept the metric system when that's the only "choice" offered does work. If you need examples, here are the ones I can list just from everyday life:

Medicines
Medical supplies
Electricity
Large bottles of soda
Modern automotive parts
Computers and devices
Photography
Money

The scientific and medical communities pretty much embraced the metric system early on. The US military has adapted to it. NASA still seems to have some difficulty adapting to it. I can only assume that it's due to aging employees who are irrationally refusing to adapt.

And in looking at Wikipedia, I see they back me up for my above statements:

Usage Around The World

In the United States metric units, authorized by Congress in 1866, are widely used in science, medicine, military, and partially in industry, but customary units predominate in household use. At retail stores the litre is a commonly used unit for volume, especially on bottles of beverages, and milligrams are used to denominate the amounts of medications, rather than grains. On the other hand, non-metric units are used in certain regulated environments such as nautical miles and knots in international aviation. Resistance to metrication, particularly in the UK and the US, has been connected to the perceived cost involved, a sense of patriotism and lack of desire to conform internationally.
(emphasis mine)

So again, absolute and irrational stubbornness by average Americans with regards to adapting to the metric system. Even though they have anyway

[dilby]

195. I have not used Cursive since my Sophomore year of High School.

By my junior year all papers had to be typed on a type writer, when I hit college all papers were done on a computer. In the work place everything is typed, if I am writing anyone it's by email even family.

There is zero reason to teach kids cursive it's dead, no one uses it and there is a better use of time. If you want them to learn it for Art I suggest calligraphy it looks better and is about as useful.

[ctaylors6]

199. My kids learned cursive but still can't read it well

They learned it in 2nd and 3rd grade, but it's not emphasized and not used after it's taught. So they can write their own names in cursive and write in cursive a little bit, but they really cannot read it very well. They're all high school and older now.

I just volunteered at one of the schools where some grandparents had visited and written notes. The kids who were sorting the notes had also taken cursive years ago but needed help "translating."

They're generally all fast on keyboards though.

I've heard the arguments both ways, but frankly don't care too much about whether they know cursive. I think it's nice for them to learn it like my kids did and be able to sign their names in cursive, but I'd much rather kids work on reading, spelling, vocabulary, and math facts than cursive since they all type most of what they do anyway.

I'm amazed by how well the kids can edit on a computer screen. I still have to print and edit.

[KateGladstone]

200. The cursive conundrum

Handwriting matters — does cursive? Research shows that legible cursive writing averages no faster than printed handwriting of equal or greater legibility. (Sources for all research are available on request.)

Further research shows that the fastest, clearest handwriters avoid cursive. They join only the most easily joined letter-combinations, leaving others unjoined, using print-like shapes for letters whose printed and cursive shapes disagree. Teaching material for such practical handwriting abounds — especially in the UK and Europe, where this is taught at least as often as the accident-prone cursive that too many North American educators venerate. (Again, sources are available on request.)

Reading cursive — which still matters — is much easier and quicker to master than writing cursive. Reading cursive can be mastered in just 30 to 60 minutes, even by kids who print.
There's even a free iPad app teaching how: called “Read Cursive." Given the importance of reading cursive, why not teach it explicitly and quickly, for free, instead of leaving this vital skill to depend upon learning to write in cursive?

Educated adults increasingly quit cursive. In 2012, handwriting teachers were surveyed at a conference hosted by cursive textbook publisher Zaner-Bloser.. Only 37% wrote in cursive; another 8% printed. Most — 55% — wrote with some elements resembling print-writing, others resembling cursive.

When even most handwriting teachers do not follow cursive, why glorify it?

Cursive's cheerleaders allege that cursive has benefits justifying absolutely anything said or done to promote it. Cheerleaders for cursive repeatedly allege research support — repeatedly citing studies that were misquoted or otherwise misrepresented by the claimant or by some other, earlier misrepresenter whom the claimant innocently trusts.

What about cursive and signatures? Brace yourself: in state and federal law, cursive signatures have no special legal validity over any other kind. (Hard to believe? Ask any attorney!)

Questioned document examiners (specialists in the identification of signatures, verification of documents, etc.) find that the least forgeable signatures are plainest. Most cursive signatures are loose scrawls: the rest, if following cursive's rules at all, are fairly complicated: easing forgery.

All handwriting, not just cursive, is individual. That is how any first-grade teacher immediately discerns (from print-writing on unsigned work) which child produced it.

Mandating cursive to save handwriting resembles mandating stovepipe hats and crinolines to save clothing.



Kate Gladstone
DIRECTOR, the World Handwriting Contest
CEO, Handwriting Repair/Handwriting That Works
http://www.HandwritingThatWorks.com
[e-mail]

[Jim Beard]

209. Might as well throw away all those heirloom pictures found in you great

aunts attic. You know, the ones that identify people in the photo. Can't read them, just throw them away. Would be worthless not knowing who they are.

[Kaleva]

213. My oldest stepson, who just got accepted to medical school, can barely print

[X_Digger]

215. Write != cursive.

I can write, but I haven't used cursive since elementary school.

[Odin2005]

218. Kids learn how to type and use word processors, now, instead.

Cursive is no longer something people need to learn, it is a relic of when people hand-wrote letters. People throwing a fit about this need to get a grip.

[So Far From Heaven]

220. I'm really evil.

I usually give lectures using a mix of print, cursive and symbols, so I confuse the shit out of everybody.

Senility has it's advantages.

[hughee99]

221. My 4th grade daughter in a MA public school is learning cursive. n/t

[Deadshot]

223. It's an unnecessary skill.

Handwriting isn't needed anymore. When technology advances, we should advance with it.

[HockeyMom]

228. Since I can write in Gregg Shorthand,

Printing is painfully slow. Even Cursive is in comparison. Hey, the advantage is that I can write notes and nobody will know what I am writing. Is that Arabic? Very soon, nobody will be able to decipher Cursive either. Might open up an entirely new job field.

[global1]

229. How Much Time Did It Take You To Learn Gregg Shorthand?.....nt

[tblue37]

230. Many years ago this issue was trending in the national media.

Since I had posted an article called "Do You Remember Penmanship?" on my Teacher, Teacher website, I was interviewed by at least a dozen large-circulation newspapers from across the country, and the CBS Evening News sent their 48 Hours anchorman, Richard Schlesinger, out with a camera crew to interview me and tape a bit of my "Introduction to Poetry" class, including brief images of students' chicken scratch note-taking.

I chose an articulate, videogenic student with illegible handwriting for them to interview, too. He did a great job on camera.

My article:
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/penmanship.html

The CBS Evening News video:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-vanishing-art-of-handwriting/

BTW, they need to learn cursive, not just printing. Many of my students cannot read cursive! Since many of their instructors write comments on their papers in cursive, as well as notes on the board, students who can't read cursive are at a disadvantage. I want you to wrap your minds around that astonishing fact: many college students cannot read cursive writing!

Here is a brief excerpt from my article:

I believe that students should be taught penmanship in elementary school, and that they should be required to develop a legible hand. They won't always be able to use a computer to do their work. In-class essays and exams are required at every level of education, and students who cannot write--in the sense of not being able to put words down legibly on paper with a pen or pencil--are at a distinct disadvantage. It is also true that lack of practice in handwriting means that the student may not be able to write quickly enough to take adequate notes in class or to complete an in-class assignment within a strict time limit.

When I was in grade school, teachers did not have Xerox copiers to run off assignment sheets and tests. We usually had to copy our assignments or test questions from the board. On those occasions now when I have a group of college students copy a few items from the board, it takes them forever. They are such incredibly slow writers! They copy from the board far less efficiently than second- and third-graders did when I was a child.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

232. Here's another advocate of teaching cursive writing. Uh-oh, maybe she's not the kind you want.

News

May 25 2016, 10:50 am ET

Mary Lou Bruner, Who Called Obama Prostitute, Loses Texas Education Race

by Elizabeth Chuck

A retired Texas schoolteacher who received national attention for her outrageous conspiracy theories and claimed President Obama was once a gay prostitute was denied a spot on the state board of education Tuesday.
....

Bruner's Facebook posts, which have since been deleted, ranged from the biblical to bizarre. The posts went back several years and were published by left-leaning government watchdog group Texas Freedom Network.
....

Her defeat was celebrated by the group that had outed her Facebook posts. ... "Texas escaped an education train wreck tonight," Texas Freedom Network President Kathy Miller said in a statement. "If Bruner had ultimately won election to the board, she would have instantly become the most embarrassingly uninformed and divisive member on a board that already too often puts politics ahead of making sure our kids get a sound education."

Bruner was an elementary and special education teacher for 36 years. During her campaign for the 15-seat state school board that oversees the education of 5 million students, she vowed to restore "traditional" educational values to Texas' public schools, including keeping gay "subliminal messages" out of textbooks, according to The Dallas Morning News.