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Thu Apr 28, 2016, 12:06 PM

 

A BB gun is a weapon!

Recently heard about a kid getting shot by police who was carrying a BB gun that looked like "a real gun". His parents apparently equated a BB gun with a toy gun. Sorry folks but a BB gun is a "real gun" with limited capabilities but it can still kill and or injure someone if they are hit with a BB in the right places. It is not a toy gun!!!!

Why are parents letting their kids out of the house with a BB gun? They frankly are responsible for this kid getting shot by a police officer. Yes police officers need to be well trained and better trained regarding when and how to use their lethal weapons. But when you have "toy guns" and especially BB guns that look just like regular pistols, there are real issues involved.

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply A BB gun is a weapon! (Original post)
Arizona Roadrunner Apr 2016 OP
gwheezie Apr 2016 #1
TexasBushwhacker Apr 2016 #22
liberal N proud Apr 2016 #2
GreenPartyVoter Apr 2016 #3
Raine1967 Apr 2016 #4
liberal N proud Apr 2016 #5
Iggo Apr 2016 #6
dumbcat Apr 2016 #7
TorchTheWitch Apr 2016 #9
dumbcat Apr 2016 #10
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #11
dumbcat Apr 2016 #12
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #17
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #21
TorchTheWitch Apr 2016 #13
dumbcat Apr 2016 #14
TorchTheWitch Apr 2016 #19
dumbcat Apr 2016 #20
hunter Apr 2016 #15
dumbcat Apr 2016 #16
Egnever Apr 2016 #18
Eleanors38 Apr 2016 #8

Response to Arizona Roadrunner (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 12:14 PM

1. When I was a kid, we played with bb guns

"You'll put your eye out". Here's what I think the problem is and I hear it from cops. So many people have guns that they assume people are armed.

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Response to gwheezie (Reply #1)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:51 PM

22. Actually I knew a couple of guys that lost eyes to BB guns n/t

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Response to Arizona Roadrunner (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 12:41 PM

2. If you are going to give your kids guns real or not, teach them to put them down when told

If a cop tells you to lower your weapon, DO IT.

Teach your kids to DO IT!

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #2)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 12:50 PM

3. And leave the orange cap on it! I read my son the riot act for removing the one on his AirSoft gun.

He wanted to hide better at tournaments, but I told him that was not OK with me.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #2)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 12:52 PM

4. Was Tamir Rice give that opportunity in

the few seconds after the cop left the car and shoot the kid?

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 02:02 PM

5. I never heard any audio on that situation so I can't judge it

Just the same, the kid had a real looking gun. That is nuts

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Response to Arizona Roadrunner (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 02:23 PM

6. I accept your apology.

Mighty big of you to offer it.

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Response to Arizona Roadrunner (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 02:56 PM

7. No, a BB gun is a toy gun

A real gun is a firearm, and there are specific definitions in law.

You can rant and rave all you wish, but a BB gun is not a "real gun." It is a toy. Period.

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #7)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 04:00 PM

9. Not according to the law

Any kind of gun that shoots out any kind of projectile is legally not classified as a toy and why they are exempt from having the orange tip signifying a toy gun. BB guns can kill or seriously injure someone if they are hit in the right place especially at close range. They are NOT toys. Toys do not shoot projectiles that can seriously injure or kill. Period.

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #9)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 04:55 PM

10. Please cite such Federal law

Some municipal, and maybe even state laws stretch things. Can you cite one? 18 USC? BATFE Regs?

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #10)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 05:11 PM

11. There are several court cases

 

On this. When I get home, notes aren't here, I can give it to you. It came up in court hearing today ironic, I know. I didn't feel adding those in the actual news story.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #11)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 05:41 PM

12. Remember, court case precedents

only count in their jurisdictions. And Calif. is one of those states where the courts have really stretched the law as written. And their definitions don't apply in other states.

I asked the previous poster to kindly cite law.

Maybe 18 USC Sec. 921 to start.

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #12)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 09:56 PM

17. One is USSC

 

And to 72 in fact Garner v Tennessee going still from memory. The question was the definition of a dangerous or deadly weapon

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #12)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 11:17 PM

21. Here you go

 

People V Blake
Tennessee V Garner
People V Graham

And here is the news story. Realize this were used by the DA in the context of what is a dangerous weapon, due to the deployment but never use of Pepper spray.

https://reportingsandiego.com/2016/04/28/branch-bound-for-trial/

This was one long assed prelim as well. I can't wait for the actual trial!

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #10)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 07:41 PM

13. ok

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/08/5-bb-gun-laws-you-need-to-know.html#sthash.BIwB6wMQ.dpuf

"What are the laws regarding BB guns? Here are five you need to know:

1) BB guns aren't required to have orange-tipped barrels. Under federal law, imitation firearms are required to have blaze orange barrel tips. But the statute specifically exempts "traditional BB or pellet-firing air guns" from the requirement.

(snip)

3) There's a difference between BB guns and Airsoft guns. Although, like BB guns, Airsoft guns are manufactured to look like real weapons and use air pressure to fire a projectile, the difference lies in the type of projectile fired: Airsoft guns fire plastic projectiles while BB guns and pellet guns fire metal projectiles. The two are therefore often subject to different laws. For example, Airsoft guns are required by federal law to have the same orange-tipped barrels as toy and other imitation guns."

Goes on to say that two states (New Jersey and Rhode Island) treat BB and pellet guns as "firearms" while NYC requires a license to possess or sell them.


The relevant federal law that expressly exempts BB and pellet guns from being required to have the orange tip signifying they are a toy:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/15/76/5001


Further:

http://wdtn.com/2014/10/06/why-bb-guns-are-not-required-to-have-orange-tips/

(snip)

Centerville gun shop owner John Thyne says they should be considered weapons.

"They can cause bodily harm. They can actually kill someone if its hit in the right location," said Thyne.

He says there are not a lot of laws when it comes to BB and pellet guns although many cities have codes that donít allow them to be shot off in town.

Natalie: Do you think there should be stricter rules?

"Yeah I really do. I'm obviously pro second amendment and all the stuff for personal rights but I think that gun is a weapon and there are BB guns today or pellet guns that are, in some cases, more powerful than .22s," said Thyne.

(/snip)


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #13)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 08:32 PM

14. So New Jersey and Rhode Island consider them firearms

and thus weapons. None of the info you provided shows any other law defining BB guns to be weapons. They are not considered weapons by the feds or other states.

Centerville gun shop owner John Thyne says they should be considered weapons.

I'm sorry, but I do not consider a gun shop owner to be an authoritative legal cite. I can find a gun shop owner that will say BB guns should not be considered weapons, especially here in Texas, where they are not.

I'll go along with you in saying that BB guns can be dangerous, and should be treated with respect and in a safe manner, just like many tools, but I will not consider them weapons, to be regulated as such, and are certainly not firearms (regardless of what New Jersey or Rhode Island legislators say.)

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #14)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:32 PM

19. I never once said they were "weapons" nor claimed they were "firearms"

I said that they were LEGALLY not considered toys thus not requiring the orange tip signifying them as toys.

Per your request, I gave you the relevant federal statute that clearly explicitly states that BB guns and pellet guns are EXEMPT from having the orange tip signifying they are toys because they are NOT considered toys according to federal law. Only two states consider them to be actual legal "firearms" (New Jersey and Rhode Island) though I don't know if I entirely agree with that... not that is matters, because the law is what it is and what you asked for. They fall into the gray area of federal law where they are not considered "firearms" where they would have to be regulated as any bullet firing firearm yet by federal law they are not considered to be toys EITHER thus not being required to have the orange tip that signifies them as such.

Clearly you have lost sight of the issue here. People - often young children - are purchasing or having purchased for them projectile firing guns that are not toys by federal law with no distinguishing mark (the orange tip) that marks them as a toy and that look entirely like an actual legal "firearm". THIS IS OBVIOUSLY THE PROBLEM. And it is a problem that is regularly getting people including young children maimed and killed.

And if you want to play more word games... though I never said they were legally "weapons" (although any damn thing can be used as a weapon) they most certainly ARE weapons when they can KILL by being struck by the projectiles they fire, which is WHY I brought up the statement by the gun dealer who believes they SHOULD be regulated more stringently and when some of these guns are more powerful/lethal than a .22 that IS a legal "firearm" and thus regulated as such. When a gun dealer of all people says that they are dangerous and may be more lethal than a .22 legal firearm it's PASSED time to do something about it instead of brushing it off as if these things are just harmless toys when they are very clearly NOT.

Merely slapping a warning sticker on the package while they are marketed to kids and not even locked up in cases but sitting on store shelves is a huge part of the problem - and it is that way because the laws regarding them SUCK so badly that people and often young kids are being maimed and killed because they and their parents have been lead to believe they are just toys. They are NOT toys and not LEGALLY considered toys. PERIOD.

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #19)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:46 PM

20. You are correct

It was the OP that called them weapons. And I see your cites and logic in them not being considered "toys." I concede.

Having said all that, I agree that "toy" or realistic replicas of guns are a bad idea. I never allowed my son to have them, and if i were King of the World I would ban them.

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #7)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 08:47 PM

15. A kid in our community killed himself messing around with a BB gun.

Some air guns are quite powerful.

I live in a community with a very high murder rate; lots of gang shootings, most of it gang-on-gang with the occasional innocent bystander.

Reasonable parents don't let their kids play with guns, toys or not.

The cops are quick to shoot anyone who even looks like they have a weapon.

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Response to hunter (Reply #15)


Response to hunter (Reply #15)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 10:15 PM

18. I found this really difficult to believe

 

But apparently there are on average 4 deaths per year attributed to bb guns.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14367-2004Oct31.html

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Response to Arizona Roadrunner (Original post)

Thu Apr 28, 2016, 02:57 PM

8. Not sure this meets GD standards, but some good may come of it...

 

Any child given a BB gun should receive instruction in safe and ethical use (to include dropping the arm if told to do so by LEO), not shooting at bottles (often, BBs bounce of glass, and in any case, leave a eco mess greater than shooting cans), and sparing wildlife.

I was raised on and near several acres of woods, and we roamed the woods as "hunters." This isn't wise in typical urban and suburban settings, given the panic over and culture war with armed civilians. Above all, don't give out a BB gun to a child with no instruction, and assume there is an inherent margin of safety.

Incidentally, the technologies and number of companies (esp. in Europe) which make "airguns" has increased tremendously. Some airguns are quite suitable for clean-kill hunting, and can cost as much as a conventional rifle.

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