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Mon May 2, 2016, 06:00 PM

'Today Marks the End of TTIP': Greenpeace Leak Exposes Corporate Takeover

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/05/02/today-marks-end-ttip-greenpeace-leak-exposes-corporate-takeover

The secret documents represent roughly two-thirds of the latest negotiating text, and in several cases expose for the first time the position of the U.S.

Confirming that the TransAtlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) amounts to "a huge transfer of power from people to big business," Greenpeace Netherlands on Monday leaked 248 secret pages of the controversial trade deal between the U.S. and EU, exposing how environmental regulations, climate protections, and consumer rights are being "bartered away behind closed doors."

The documents represent roughly two-thirds of the latest negotiating text, according to Greenpeace, and on some topics offer for the first time the position of the United States.

"Total secrecy was the only way the European Commission could keep the European people from learning the truth about these appalling negotiations, and now the cat is out of the bag."
óJohn Hilary, War on Want


Before Monday, elected representatives were only able to view such documents under guard, in a secure room, without access to expert consultation, while being forbidden from discussing the content with anyone else. This secrecy runs "counter to the democratic principles of both the EU and the U.S.," the website ttip-leaks.org declares.
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Reply 'Today Marks the End of TTIP': Greenpeace Leak Exposes Corporate Takeover (Original post)
Ferd Berfel May 2016 OP
chknltl May 2016 #1
Baobab May 2016 #35
DetroitSocialist83 May 2016 #2
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #5
Baobab May 2016 #36
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #41
bjobotts May 2016 #68
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #73
Helen Borg May 2016 #15
Doctor_J May 2016 #37
silvershadow May 2016 #52
Angry Dragon May 2016 #3
valerief May 2016 #11
Mbrow May 2016 #4
JDPriestly May 2016 #6
Dustlawyer May 2016 #62
lagomorph777 May 2016 #81
arcane1 May 2016 #7
felix_numinous May 2016 #8
Geronimoe May 2016 #9
840high May 2016 #16
KPN May 2016 #18
Hydra May 2016 #27
Baobab May 2016 #44
KPN May 2016 #54
Betty Karlson May 2016 #57
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #75
Betty Karlson May 2016 #95
Amimnoch May 2016 #10
Ghost Dog May 2016 #13
Enthusiast May 2016 #12
fasttense May 2016 #61
Dont call me Shirley May 2016 #14
840high May 2016 #17
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #29
Phlem May 2016 #19
ReRe May 2016 #20
Jack Rabbit May 2016 #21
proverbialwisdom May 2016 #64
thesquanderer May 2016 #22
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #30
Chan790 May 2016 #42
thesquanderer May 2016 #47
Chan790 May 2016 #48
whereisjustice May 2016 #23
EndElectoral May 2016 #24
Harcourdt Fenton Mud May 2016 #25
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #26
Hydra May 2016 #28
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #31
Hydra May 2016 #33
ChisolmTrailDem May 2016 #32
99th_Monkey May 2016 #65
LiberalLovinLug May 2016 #69
ChisolmTrailDem May 2016 #70
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #74
Jitter65 May 2016 #34
Jack Rabbit May 2016 #45
ronnie624 May 2016 #55
ChisolmTrailDem May 2016 #72
ronnie624 May 2016 #93
drm604 May 2016 #63
ChisolmTrailDem May 2016 #71
Jack Rabbit May 2016 #77
KoKo May 2016 #38
arcane1 May 2016 #79
Triana May 2016 #39
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #40
Triana May 2016 #43
lovuian May 2016 #46
bbgrunt May 2016 #49
chknltl May 2016 #50
burrowowl May 2016 #51
ViseGrip May 2016 #53
PatrickforO May 2016 #56
Populist_Prole May 2016 #58
disillusioned73 May 2016 #78
Teamster Jeff May 2016 #59
JohnyCanuck May 2016 #60
raouldukelives May 2016 #66
JEB May 2016 #67
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #76
rhett o rick May 2016 #80
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #82
rhett o rick May 2016 #83
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #87
rhett o rick May 2016 #88
Fast Walker 52 May 2016 #84
Populist_Prole May 2016 #86
Amimnoch May 2016 #85
ucrdem May 2016 #89
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #90
ucrdem May 2016 #91
rhett o rick May 2016 #94
mrr303am May 2016 #92

Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:02 PM

1. KnR nt

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:06 PM

2. And yet the Hillarians

 

Jump up and down in approval of it.

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Response to DetroitSocialist83 (Reply #2)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:12 PM

5. Now Add THIS


Nearly 75% of new jobs created over the next decade will pay a median wage of less than $35k a year


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7797509

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Reply #5)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:35 PM

36. ha..

I think they are being optimistic to not tell us point blank, jobs are valued by supply and demand - and demand is going away, so wages will fall to zero.

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Response to Baobab (Reply #36)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:58 PM

41. wages will fall until Americans are competing for jobs Globally

with people making pennies per hour.

We will shortly be completely back to the World of Charles Dickens, or worse.

This is what the republicans, Obama and the Clinton people are supporting.

THe race to the bottom is almost over.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Reply #41)

Tue May 3, 2016, 12:35 PM

68. Through tariffs and taxes we make it more costly to make it abroad & bring it back than

 

to just make it at home. This will bring the factories back or make it profitable to build new ones here bringing jobs back. Dump our trade policies. We make nothing in America now but we used to and need to do so again.

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Response to bjobotts (Reply #68)

Tue May 3, 2016, 02:20 PM

73. Correct. This is what the US did from the beginning until Reagan

started killing it. In Fact the Government was supported form many years (I think up until about WWII) almost totally by tariffs.

We need to get back to this. Attempting to make the US operate on taxes collected on the Poor and Middle-class wages, when those groups have to compete for wages with people making pennies on our dollar is INSANE and impossible. It cannot be done.

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Response to DetroitSocialist83 (Reply #2)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:26 PM

15. Wonder why...

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Response to DetroitSocialist83 (Reply #2)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:50 PM

37. Yep. They hate democracy.

 

Are looking forward to the day when corporations control everything. But they're nothing like republicans

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Response to DetroitSocialist83 (Reply #2)

Tue May 3, 2016, 12:23 AM

52. They don't understand this:

 

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:07 PM

3. We need FAIR TRADE

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #3)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:58 PM

11. Instead of legalized theft. nt

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:11 PM

4. K & R

Just as we have been saying from the start

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:16 PM

6. These trade agreements will end the trace of democracy that remains in the world.

They are essentially corporate coups. They will end self-determination and self-government in so many areas.

Take gun control.

A lot of DUers are for that.

But gun control measures will reduce the profits of gun manufacturers some of which are primarily located outside the US.

Take the environmental regulations, limits on the use of fossil fuels or fertilizers or weed control agents. These regulations will make it difficult for people around the world to decide in their local governments, states, nations just what limits they want.

The agreements are horrible, and the courts they set up are just beyond belief awful.

And a vote for Hillary is a vote for these agreements.

Shame on all who have already voted for her.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #6)

Tue May 3, 2016, 09:11 AM

62. But, but... Hillary said it is "the Gold Standard" of trade agreements!

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #62)

Tue May 3, 2016, 03:39 PM

81. Yes, it will move a lot of gold from our pockets to theirs

so it is the perfect trade agreement

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:16 PM

7. Let's hope so n/t

 

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:17 PM

8. K&R! We all knew it!!

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:18 PM

9. Hillary promoted this piece of fascist garbage as the gold standard

 

The Party needs to nominate a real Democrat, otherwise Trump wins.

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Response to Geronimoe (Reply #9)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:27 PM

16. yep

 

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Response to Geronimoe (Reply #9)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:44 PM

18. That's the mind blowing thing about her support. These are people

who stand to benefit from the TTP or they are either ill-informed or just cling to a naive trust in the "system" despite flashing warning signs everywhere. The first aren't traditional core Democrats, they are DLC raised "New Democrats"; the latter are being duped.

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Response to KPN (Reply #18)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:37 PM

27. They're part of the DLC machine

And they think they will be paid handsomely for helping get this passed. 30 pieces of silver, anyone?

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Response to KPN (Reply #18)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:07 PM

44. the article is about TTIP, not TPP

TTIP=US-Europe mostly, also freezing chemical regulation and encouraging fracking and exporting our natural gas and globalizing government procurement so no more new deals.

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Response to Baobab (Reply #44)

Tue May 3, 2016, 12:53 AM

54. Haha. Right.

Wait. Who cares?! They're both treasonous!

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Response to Geronimoe (Reply #9)

Tue May 3, 2016, 02:52 AM

57. TWO pieces of this garbage: TPP and TTIP.

 

And yes: she has lauded fascist policies as a golden standard. Tell me again why she would be better than Trump? Because she has ovaries or something?

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Response to Betty Karlson (Reply #57)

Tue May 3, 2016, 02:29 PM

75. And lets be aware that Trump will run to the LEFT of Clinton on this issue

THAT will be damned awkward. She could loose to Drumpf on this point alone.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Reply #75)

Wed May 4, 2016, 02:10 AM

95. Right there with you.

 

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:42 PM

10. Is there a link yet to these 248 pages?

 

I see the summary of what they found, but I'm interested in seeing the actual 248 pages and what they say.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 06:59 PM

12. Kicked and recommended!

Why would President Obama support such a horrible thing? And the TPP too!

Contrary to what the cheerleaders say past trade deals have absolutely devastated American manufacturing. Now the TPP and TTIP promise to do far worse by surrendering massive power to corporations. This at a time when corporate power has already run amuck.

This makes no sense. We already have the example of the Country of Origin meat label. These trade deals are treasonous in nature. They are anti-democratic. Democratic presidents of the past wouldn't be caught dead signing such a deal.

Stop abusing the American people!

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #12)

Tue May 3, 2016, 07:49 AM

61. Well said. n/t

 

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:20 PM

14. Treason. Treason.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #14)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:29 PM

17. Good word for this and

 

for those that support it.

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Response to 840high (Reply #17)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:40 PM

29. and those who helped write it especially

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:49 PM

19. Huge K&R!

But you know it's not the end. They are going to pull out all the stops to ram this through.

Say it fails. Still not the end.

We can NEVER fall asleep again, probably the closest you'll get to "the end".

This, however, rocks in all kinds of ways!

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 07:58 PM

20. TTIP 248 pages

Tell all the people! I knew it was a Corporate take-over. I knew it in my gut, just like I knew the GWB's invasion of Iraq was a pile of bullshit. Now let's wait & see if the wonderful M$M puts this at the top of the news list.

Thanks, Ferd! Marking this to come back to later.

K&R

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:07 PM

21. Let's hope it's the end of the line for all "free"trade deals and of neliberalism altogether

TTIP, TPP amd TiSA included.

Frankly, I never felt suspicious that government and corporate business were colluding an end run around democracy. I felt certain of it, and I know I'm not the only one here who was certain.

It's time to make plans for the post-neoliberal world. New conferences, based on principles of democracy and transparency, should be convened to assure that the future is not corporatist but humanist and democratic. The press is invited, along with their television camera and microphones, but the oligarchs and their political stooges can stay home; they are fired and will be notified of the time and place for each of them to report to a truth and reconciliation commission to deal with their cases. Any statues of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan shall be torn down and the scrap tossed with what's left of the Berlin Wall.

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #21)

Tue May 3, 2016, 10:56 AM

64. K&R

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:09 PM

22. I wonder which parts of this were the promising "gold standard"? (n/t)

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #22)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:41 PM

30. that would be an excellent question

if she ever was confronted with a REAL interview

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #22)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:58 PM

42. The ones that jingle-jangle in the pockets of liars and thieves.

 

I think what they meant to say is "This trade deal is putting a lot of gold in my pockets and campaign war-chest."

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #42)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:26 PM

47. Ah, it wasn't the Gold Standard of trade agreements, it was the Goldman Sachs standard. (n/t)

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #47)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:26 PM

48. The silver standard.

 

All 30 pieces of it.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:12 PM

23. Just pass it. We'lll read it and fix it later... you don't want to embarrass Hillary, right?

We're supposed to take one for team Hillary.




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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:13 PM

24. HRC's gold standard remark on this monstrosity is coming back to bite her

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:17 PM

25. Hmmm. Isn't Obama still pushing this? N/T

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Response to Harcourdt Fenton Mud (Reply #25)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:30 PM

26. yep. That was the reason for the Trip

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Response to Harcourdt Fenton Mud (Reply #25)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:39 PM

28. He has to secure his "Legacy" before he leaves the WH n/t

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Response to Hydra (Reply #28)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:42 PM

31. I think "Making his Bones" would be more accurate

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Reply #31)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:49 PM

33. Yes, indeed.

I said something a little more to the point originally, but one has to mind the alert stalkers these days

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 08:42 PM

32. Why do Hillary voters support this and TPP and free trade? nt

 

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #32)

Tue May 3, 2016, 11:46 AM

65. Hillary & her supporters think "I've got mine, so everyone else can fuck-off

 

and die."

It's ugly and disgusting, and yes, treasonous as well.

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #32)

Tue May 3, 2016, 02:07 PM

69. the cult of personality is strong in these ones

They cover their ears and eyes and ignore any stories from the "liberal media" if it in anyway tarnishes their precious. They have invested so much time and even money into her that they will refuse to beleive they have been wrong all this time. Theyed rather watch the country veer even harder right, and have less consumer and citizen rights, earn less, have less to look forward to, bow down and accept the oligarchy, when they actually had a candidate with true Democrat values, a once in a lifetime chance to finally catch up to other nations with what they provide to their citizens, and maybe even once again be a beacon of hope to workers around the planet.

But, you know,.....

"They have looked deep into her eyes and are able to get a sense of her soul; a woman deeply committed to her country and the best interests of her country"

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #69)

Tue May 3, 2016, 02:09 PM

70. I agree. I wonder if any Hill supporters will actually answer my question.

 



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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #32)

Tue May 3, 2016, 02:24 PM

74. Because they are either ignorant of the facts, Delusional, Neo-con opperatives

or paid to advocate.





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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 09:09 PM

34. So I assume that all commenters here have read, understood, and formed an opinion

 

on these pages and extrapolated your thinking to the rest of the agreement?

If so, you will be able to explain to those of us who do not feign explicit understanding exactly which language indicates the absolute transfer of power, that they do not already have, to corporations and from the people?

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Response to Jitter65 (Reply #34)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:09 PM

45. The worst part of the TPP agreement is Chapter 28 (Dispute Settlement)

There are similar chapters in TTIP and TiSA. This chapter is currently a stumbling block in the TTIP negotiations.

Here is the official summary (caution -- it's what they want you to know) of the chapter in .pdf format.

Also in .pdf format, here is the trxt of the entire chapter.

Chapter 28 provides for an Investor-State Dispute Settlement process, under which a corporation may bring action against a government at any level if the corporate officers believe that a government action will deprive the corporation of expected future profits. If a state attempts to regulate harmful emissions from a smoke stack, the factory owners may take action against the state before an ISDS panel, which consists of three corporate lawyers. The panel members are chosen by the plaintiffs and the defendants, with each picking one panelist and agreeing on the third, who serves as chairman. The process to select the panel chairman is complicated by going into what happens if the parties do not agree on a choice of a chairman.

A majority vote of the panel decides the dispute, but the identities of the panelist associated with the majority and minority views are not disclosed. Decisions are final. There is no appeal. The state will have no right to pursue the matter in its own courts.

In my view, this is an end run around democratic institutions. The state has lost sovereignty over its power to abate greenhouse gases or pollution by entering into an agreement such as the TPP. An elected representative of the people may sponsor and pass an anti-pollution bill, but, under the TPP, a corporate party may take the state to arbitration by an panel not responsible to any elected official for legally binding arbitration.

Any agreement that contains a provision such as this should be rejected without discussion.

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #45)

Tue May 3, 2016, 01:36 AM

55. But one does not have to understand every element of chapter 28

Last edited Tue May 3, 2016, 02:25 AM - Edit history (1)

to understand its implications. The outrage, is in the very fact that it establishes an official procedure, through which corporations can challenge the sovereignty of governments. It subordinates the principles of democracy to a desire for self-enrichment, by an elite class of human society. No working-class person should accept this.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #55)

Tue May 3, 2016, 02:16 PM

72. The burden of paying those lost "future profits" will also fall on you and me. nt

 

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #72)

Tue May 3, 2016, 06:26 PM

93. And the only considerations for establishing public policy,

should be the common good and the will of the majority. It's an obvious default position for anyone who understands and values democracy.

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #45)

Tue May 3, 2016, 10:43 AM

63. This right here is the biggest problem, in my mind.

This turns over state sovereignty to a 3 person panel. Yes, the government gets to choose one of those people, and both parties have to agree on the third, but who in our government is making those choices, and can we guarantee no corruption?

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #45)

Tue May 3, 2016, 02:14 PM

71. This literally means that loss of any future profit wins by corporations against the government...

 

...will result in taxpayers, ie: you and me, taking on the burden of having to pay those future profit declarations with our own hard work and money and with the future welfare of ourselves and our children.

Amiright?

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #71)

Tue May 3, 2016, 02:36 PM

77. Yes, you are right.

On the other hand, what hard work are you talking about? The TPP will cost us more jobs. It's probably just as likely we Yanks will never be able to pay the judgments imposed against us by a panel of corporate shysters; we'll end up like Greece.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:33 PM

38. Oh...I hope so!

I'm still worried about the Lame Duck Late Night Vote by Congress when we are all distracted by the aftermath of the Election.

But...we still hope!

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Response to KoKo (Reply #38)

Tue May 3, 2016, 03:30 PM

79. Obama has joined forces with republicans to stab us in the back with this.

 

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:48 PM

39. And the TPP is exactly the same thing ie: corporate takeover of power away from people.

 

And BYTHEWAY, Hillary Clinton DOES support both.

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Response to Triana (Reply #39)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:50 PM

40. And CLinton co-wrote it and Obama is pushing it

on both sides of the pond.

democracy is just about over.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Reply #40)

Mon May 2, 2016, 10:59 PM

43. YEP. Only one who is FLAT against it & always has been is Bernie Sanders! n/t

 

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 11:14 PM

46. the New World order

exists

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 12:05 AM

49. Dysuptopia, here we come. Too many with open arms.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 12:11 AM

50. Kickety nt

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 12:14 AM

51. Yeah Green Peace!

A GREAT Organization!

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 12:36 AM

53. Well you'd think it was over, but Obama will continue to push this.....

 

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 02:06 AM

56. 'Free trade' isn't free, and it is not good for the people. The only people it is good for

are a few billionaire parasites.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 03:21 AM

58. It's the same ole' same ole' since the late 80s

"Free trade is good!"

It's been "good" for the one percent: corrosive for the working class.

"Yeah but this one is different: It'll raise our exports!!!"

If and when they ever raised them, they were offset gigantically by the imports. Net job loss.

"Yeah yeah, but that meant lower prices for goods!"

Not necessarily. It meant fatter bottom lines for the rent seekers cutting their production costs while selling to established domestic markets. In any case, you're killing demand as un or underemployed aren't buying as much, and what they buy isn't nourishing their co-citizens.

"But the rest of the world will rise up to our standards, even as yours lower. In the long run, it'll even out".

As J Keynes said, "in the long run, we're all dead". In the short run, the rentier class profits enormously. Quite an ancillary coincidence, isn't it?

"Well, we'll compensate the losers via redistribution"

Cold comfort. Day late and a dollar short. Never happened anyway, and at best provided a conduit for underemployment.

"What are you, a xenophobe?. You have it too good. What about Vietnamese farmers?!"

How is expecting public policy in the country we live in and participate politically in selfish?

"We will bury you".

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for your ilk.

"Yeah, but the republicans are worse"

Haven't we heard that before, only to see nothing change?

"Go away".

Why didn't you just say that to begin with?

"We need your vote."



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Response to Populist_Prole (Reply #58)

Tue May 3, 2016, 03:21 PM

78. ....

 

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 04:42 AM

59. Kick rec

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 06:12 AM

60. Free Trade as designed = Corporatocracy run amok n/t

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 11:46 AM

66. K&R TY Greenpeace. We live in the most democracy shareholders will allow. nt

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 11:55 AM

67. It makes no sense to beat a dead horse,

 

or a dead planet, or a dead working class. Fucking criminals.

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Response to JEB (Reply #67)

Tue May 3, 2016, 02:31 PM

76. They are megalomaniac sociopaths they can't help themselves

We have to stop it because they can't.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 03:32 PM

80. So far not a single Hillary supporter has responded here to this disaster.

 

If they were liberals they would at least defend it. But they won't defend it. They just don't care. As long as their authoritarian idol wins, they will be happy.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #80)

Tue May 3, 2016, 03:42 PM

82. Proving that TPP, TTIP, NAFTA, CAFTA

are Right Wing Neo-con programs.

YOu can't be a liberal, or progressive and support the destruction of the poor and Middle-class economy.

That's a RW thing.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Reply #82)

Tue May 3, 2016, 03:55 PM

83. I don't give them that much credit. IMO they don't care about the issue because they

 

support a strong authoritarian leader and that's what is important.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #83)

Tue May 3, 2016, 04:24 PM

87. Just like republicans....

Free Book on-line

Bob Altemeyer's - The Authoritarians http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Reply #87)

Tue May 3, 2016, 04:26 PM

88. I am very familiar with that book. Bought a hard copy. Authoritarian followers look to

 

strong leadership to do their thinking for them.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 04:03 PM

84. Isn't Trump against the TPP?

 



But to be clear, I agree the TPP is bad and needs to be stopped. Hillary is wishy-washy on it, and obviously Bernie is strongly against it.

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Reply #84)

Tue May 3, 2016, 04:23 PM

86. Ostensibly so

Amazing how far to the right politics have drifted: That a fascist like Trump is running to the left of Hillary on trade and SS/Medicare.

HRC's "wishy-washy" on TPP is just trying to triangulate till the clock runs out.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 04:17 PM

85. Findings, and more questions.

 

Alright, from the article the primary claim of:
"Whether you care about environmental issues, animal welfare, labor rights or internet privacy, you should be concerned about what is in these leaked documents," Oulahsen said. "They underline the strong objections civil society and millions of people around the world have voiced: TTIP is about a huge transfer of democratic power from people to big business. We call on all elected representative and other concerned parties to read these documents and engage in the debate."


There are 4 points lined out in the article to support the assertion:
the apparent omission of the so-called "General Exceptions rule," which allows nations to regulate trade "to protect human, animal and plant life or health" or for "the conservation of exhaustible natural resources;"

the absence of language about climate protection, plus provisions that would "stimulate imports and exports of fossil fuelsólike shale gas from fracking or oil from tar sandsówhile clean energy production for local communities and associations would be considered unfair competition and a barrier to trade."

a clear threat to the "precautionary principle," which requires regulatory caution where there is scientific doubt, shifting the burden of proof on whether a product is safe to public authorities, not on those who seek to sell it;

the heretofore shrouded "high degree" of corporate influence over the talks.


The General exceptions rule is included in the doc pack they provide at the link. Page 205 of 248 of the combined file states:
Article X.3: [EU/GPA: Security and] General Exceptions

[EU/GPA: Agreement] [US: Chapter] shall be construed to prevent any Party from imposing or
enforcing measures:
(a) necessary to protect public morals, order or safety;
(b) necessary to protect human, animal or plant life or health;
(c) necessary to protect intellectual property; or
(d) relating to goods or services of persons with disabilities, philanthropic institutions or
prison labor.
[US: 3. The Parties understand that subparagraph 2(b) includes environmental measures necessary
to protect human, animal or plant life or health.]


Second point of the article on the absence of language of climate protection:
Page 215 of 248:
6. For greater certainty, a Party, including its procuring entities, may, in accordance with this
Article, prepare, adopt or apply technical specifications to promote
[US: (a)] the conservation of natural resources or protect the environment [US: ; or

Page 216 of 248:
(c) all evaluation criteria the entity will apply in the awarding of the contract [EU:
(including criteria referring to qualitative, environmental and social aspects applied in
contract award)]


Page 223 of 248
11. Where a procuring entity establishes that a tender is abnormally low because it does not comply
with environmental, social and labor law, or because the supplier has obtained subsidies, the tender
can be rejected on that ground alone only after consultations with the supplier where the latter is
unable to prove, within a sufficient time fixed by the procuring entity, that the evidence supplied
does not satisfactorily account for the low level of price proposed or that the subsidy in question
was granted in compliance with the disciplines relating to subsidies laid down in this Agreement.


On the third point of the precautionary principle:
I've still got a lot of reading to do, but so far I'm not seeing anything that either substantiates the claim or refutes it.

On the 4th point I 100% agree. That these have to be "leaked" is absurd in the most mild language I could use to describe it. These documents should be publicly available for all citizens of all affected countries to have and look at.. from the workers, to the small business owners all the way up to the corporate executives (while this helps some corporations, I'm seeing where more than a few who were probably not invited to the table will have concerns).

On the article, it's too hyperbolic, and in some of its points seems to be misleading at best, and outright false on some of their points at the least. I'd really love to see some journalist take the banner, identify the specific articles and clauses and put forth their meanings for accurate scrutiny.

I'd like to offer special thanks to ghost dog in post #13 for pointing me to the link to the actual documents for download. Will revert more after I've had some more "bathroom time reading" on them.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

Tue May 3, 2016, 04:27 PM

89. What "secret documents"? The final text of the TPP has been available online since November. Link:

The complete text of the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement and various side instruments negotiated by the United States with certain Parties.

https://medium.com/the-trans-pacific-partnership/table-of-contents-83d9de8d01b5#.nbt0hatfy


Proving again that right-wing nuttery exists in its own fact-free bubble I guess.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #89)

Tue May 3, 2016, 04:29 PM

90. Read the title again - THis is TTIP

The EU version

Proving again that The Hillarians are willfully ignorant.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Reply #90)

Tue May 3, 2016, 04:33 PM

91. LOL, so today's outrage-du-jour is over an EU trade deal.

Figures.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #89)

Tue May 3, 2016, 07:22 PM

94. Proving that you don't read the OP before you post your

 

The OP is about the TTIP not the TTP. There is a difference.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Original post)

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