As States Expand Gun Rights, the Police Object.

[elleng]

'Guns in bars. Guns in airports. Guns in day care centers and sports arenas. Conservative state lawmakers around the country are pressing to weaken an array of gun regulations, in some cases greatly expanding where owners can carry their weapons.

But the legislators are encountering stiff opposition from what has been a trusted ally: law enforcement.

In more than a dozen states with long traditions of robust support for gun ownership rights, and where legislatures have moved to relax gun laws during the past year, the local police have become increasingly vocal in denouncing the measures. They say the new laws expose officers to greater danger and prevent them from doing their jobs effectively.

“We are a gun society and we recognize that, but we should be writing gun laws that make us safer,” said Leonard Papania, the police chief in Gulfport, Miss., who opposes part of a new state law that creates exceptions to the rules for concealed-carry permits. “Do you want every incident on your street to escalate to acts of gun violence?”'>>>

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/04/us/as-states-expand-gun-rights-police-join-opposition.html?

[RKP5637]

1. Some gun owners are quite responsible, but I bet there will be a lot of emotional

guns owners that shoot first and talk later. To me, it's a bad situation.

[TipTok]

4. Controller types always say that the streets are going to run red with blood...

... every time gun rights expand but it never seems to materialize.

[AgerolanAmerican]

52. The streets ARE running red with blood

from people shot by cops!

Heard a stat that through the end of March this year, cops in the US killed more people than cops in the UK did during the entire 20th century.

[TipTok]

59. Except they aren't...

While unfortunate they represent an infinitesimally small part of the interactions people have with police every day.

[AgerolanAmerican]

60. has anyone tried that at a murder trial?

"Why yes, your honor, I did murder the victim, but it was an infinitesimally small part of the interactions I have with people every day."

There's no excuse for the disparity in numbers. Police in this country use too much violence, and it's a nationwide problem. If police forces want to de-escalate the violence to protect their officers, that change starts in the police stations - because that's where the escalation of violence started in the first place.

[TipTok]

61. I'm not saying that there couldn't be improvement from virtually everyone involved...

I'm saying that it isnt the sweeping genocide the media would lead you to believe.

[AgerolanAmerican]

62. it's historically bad

like, orders of magnitude worse than in any country that wasn't run by a dictatorship or occupied by foreign military forces.

off the charts is not hyperbole in this case. The actual killings only scratch the surface of the overall level of brutality.

[braddy]

2. If they don't like the work, they are free to change jobs, we don't run our lives to make it easier

on them, or at least we shouldn't.

[COLGATE4]

3. Now THAT's brilliant. Who do those goddamned

police think they are, anyway, criticizing people who believe that the best course of action for themselves - and their families and neighbors and society in general is that they should be armed at all times. Because the 2A to them seems to mean "I'm going to parade around wherever I damned well feel like showing off my arsenal because I CAN". Why would anything like that make a cop nervous? Silly cops.

Why make their lives easier??? Well, one immediate reason involving self preservation occurs to me. Police will react to an increased amount of armed persons in the general population by assuming that any person they contact may be armed and dangerous. Hard as it may be to believe, such an assumption is not really to the law abiding citizen's advantage. Like it or not, all those folk who feel they can't leave their weapon at home regardless of time, place or circumstances are putting all of us in more danger any time we come into contact with the police.

[braddy]

5. If you want cops to decide your freedoms and rights, then we don't need politics and

legislation and the Supreme Court. I hear the cops have a lot of opinions on our Bill of Rights, even including when we can speak out and how we will do it.


Remember that the cops work for us, they are supposed to do what we tell them to do, and when we change something, then they need to accept it, or go look for a different job.

[COLGATE4]

8. Like I said, brilliant. Next time you're pulled over, be sure to tell

the cop &quot s)he works for you and (s)he's supposed to do what you tell them" and, if they don't accept that to "go look for another job".

[braddy]

9. What is your point? We pass the laws and we hire people to enforce them, if the cops don't

like our laws and our freedoms, then they need to look for other work.

You seem to be promoting the police making our laws for us.

[COLGATE4]

10. My only points are 1) I see absolutely no need whatsoever for anyone who

wants to walk around armed actually needing to do so and 2) you need to be realistic about how things work in the world outside of DU.

[braddy]

11. Many of us do see a need to be armed, and you need to quit thinking that cops should

make the laws based on what makes their job the easiest.

It sounds like you don't like the 2nd amendment, so you want the cops to just quit allowing that one, what about public speech and demonstrations?

What about video recording cops? They are against that also.

[COLGATE4]

12. Please enlighten me with your 'need to be armed'.

I'd really like to know what makes you so fearful.

[braddy]

20. That sounds like projection, I am confortable in my own skin, guns don't scare me so I don't mind

carrying one with me.

If a person is fearful and jittery about having a gun, then they should seek help, but no one will force them to carry one.

[COLGATE4]

25. Doesn't sound like you're 'comfortable in your own skin'. And 'guns don't scare

me' as a reason for carrying one is, well, bizarre. How about one good reason FOR always carrying one???

[braddy]

30. I am comfortable in my own skin, that is why I have always gone where and when I please, do you?

I don't have any reason to not carry a gun, it gives me an extra level of protection as I travel and walk around at night, or conduct business during the day.

I see no reason to deliberately avoid having useful tools with me, I am a very tool oriented man.

[COLGATE4]

33. Yep. And I'm willing to bet you that I've been in and gone

through places a great deal riskier than any you have ever encountered. And yet I've done it unarmed and lived to tell the tale. What job do you consider having a gun useful for (except maybe using it as a hammer)?

[braddy]

35. That is a bet that you would probably lose, but your intense passion in not wanting me to carry is

baffling.

You really do not want me armed for some reason, it seems to scare you greatly, actually, it seems to annoy you greatly which is really strange.

[COLGATE4]

46. No, I really wouldn't. But that's beside the point.

I don't like having armed people wandering around wondering when they're going to get the opportunity to use their cherished "tools". Still waiting for you to tell me just what your gun "tool" is useful for?

[braddy]

48. Strange projection that you do on the law abiding people, thinking that they are

wandering around in life looking for someone to kill, you don't really sound like a man who has lived on the wild side of life, as you implied.

[COLGATE4]

49. To the contrary. I've lived in areas where you can just as easily get

shot as smiled at so I don't take people carrying guns 'just because they can' as cavalierly as many do. And I also see the reports, almost daily these days where some gun carrier got cut off on the Interstate or got the wrong cheese with his burger and, voila, relies on the old Second Amendment remedy. Who the hell needs that in a supposedly civilized society? BTW, I'm still waiting to hear what pressing reason makes you feel you have to walk around armed.

Case in point,right now on DU
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/yall-ruined-my-life-says-texas-man-killing-co-worker-self/ar-BBsDXBg?li=BBnb4R7

[braddy]

53. I can believe that you have lived among neighbors that you consider dangerous and threatening,

but I don't think that you have ever lived on the wild side of life, as you implied.

You seem to have a real fear of even law abiding people, and of guns.

[COLGATE4]

54. I lived and worked in Medellin, Colombia during much

of Pablo Escobar's shooting and bombing attacks on the general population. My niece was carjacked by some of Pablo's goons, just managed to throw herself out of the car before they took it along with her friend. My BIL had his car shot at (and hit) on three separate occasions. My SIL got caught in automatic weapons fire right on the street in the center of the city at 9AM while trying to shelter her 2 toddlers. (She applied for any was granted asylum in the US for this). I just missed getting caught in another one of Pablo's specialties, a car bomb by a little over a block.

[braddy]

57. What does that have to do with America? Here, in most places, a law abiding citizen can carry

protection if they choose. You really described a city and other people besides your self, and in a foreign country at that.

[COLGATE4]

63. Because you were insisting that I had never been in a dangerous place/situation.

I've seen people shot to death, at very close range. I don't care much for it. Doesn't really matter what country it is.

[braddy]

66. You claimed " And I'm willing to bet you that I've been in and gone through places a great deal

riskier than any you have ever encountered." and it seems that is far from true, and it also sounds just like I said, you have never lived in the wild side of life.

The impression that I'm getting is that you are the protected one in the house, and that you never engage the bad guys personally, so taking a knife or gun from someone or trying to stop bad guys, only exists in video games for you.

[COLGATE4]

67. As opposed to all the bad guys you've taken knives or guns from???

Cool story, Bro.

[braddy]

68. I've got plenty of stories, I see no way that I could get so fearful of myself that I would be

afraid to carry something as simple as a gun, it just doesn't compute for me, just as I would see no reason not to carry a knife, or a flashlight, I am a tool oriented man that sees no reason to be hung up about them to the point where I would call them bad, or too scary for me to have.

[COLGATE4]

69. So, if a person doesn't carry a gun it's because (s)he is so fearful of themself

carrying something so simple as a gun? Do you even read what you write? In any event, stick a fork in me. I'm done. Bye.

[braddy]

70. No, but you are aren't simply not interested in not carrying a gun yourself, you don't want

anyone to. Heck you have been posting at me all day and you insult people who do carry.

[COLGATE4]

55. Still no answer about why you are so fearful of "law abiding people" that you

have to go around armed?

[braddy]

58. It is a silly question, you have yet to explain why a man should deliberately avoid carrying his

self protection tools. I see no reason not to carry, the times that I have jumped someone to take away their knife or gun or escaping some other close call involving bad guys, makes it seem silly for me to not carry when I want to.

Do you live something of a sheltered life?

[COLGATE4]

64. You do know that the stuff you do on video games

isn't real life?

[braddy]

65. Like I said, it sounds like you have lived a sheltered life.

[madinmaryland]

72. Why do you need to be armed? Are you a private investigator or a driver for Brinx?

Please explain.

[jmg257]

23. One of the great perks of being LE is being able to carry just about anytime, anywhere.

These days without mag restrictions.

And not needing a permit to buy/sell handguns is/was cool too.

ETA as is carrying those perks into retirement.

[COLGATE4]

50. I have no problem with LE carrying. I worry about all the

good folk who aren't quite sure which end the bullet comes out of.

[LanternWaste]

14. You appear to be consciously conflating "police deciding your freedom and rights"

You appear to be consciously conflating "police deciding your freedom and rights" with the mere expression of those same cops opinions...

[braddy]

17. The person posting to me seems to give GREAT weight to the cop's opinions, and was describing it

as though they should decide.

Should we post some more of the police organizations opinions about which of our freedoms give them a hassle at work, and perhaps ask them for more "opinions"?

Do you realize how much power the police carry in city politics?

[jmg257]

34. Plenty of example of Police (Chief) organizations getting into the politics

of gun control. Often their opinions are propped up for great value.

[Lizzie Poppet]

13. Rank-and-file police officers are seldom anti-gun.

Police chiefs (politicians, at least in larger locales) are another story. This article cites the latter...but don't be fooled. While the average beat cop supports more training and better screening of civilian gun owners (as do I, a competition shooter), they also tend very strongly to support 2nd Amendment rights.

[braddy]

15. I know, and you are correct, but I didn't feel like digging up the numbers, cops feel safer when

the good guys have guns.

[Egnever]

18. Well that certainly shows in their policing

Thank goodness they feel safe enough not to shoot kids with toy guns.

[braddy]

21. I think that we have a different kind of cop today, than what we had 60 years ago.

Before the last 50 years, cops used to be big and tough, they were willing to fight a man with a screw driver in his hand, with their billy clubs.

Today cops pretty much have been trained to kill everything in front of them that poses a possible threat, and then sort out the details later.

Many people are learning to not call the cops over uncle Harry getting rough at the family birthday, if the cops don't kill uncle, or the explosive teen son, then they might kill the family dog.

Cops need to start taking a little longer to react with deadly force. I cringe when I see them gun down every man with a knife.

[groundloop]

22. And just WHY are cops more prone to shoot nowadays?

Gee, could it possibly be the proliferation of guns?

[braddy]

26. I think it is because they can't fight any more, remember that they use to have size requirements.

Also courage, today cops seem more averse to taking personal risks in service to the public.

Today they just kill whatever is in front of them, they didn't used to shoot our dogs either, and they didn't kill every man who had a knife, or even a gun, or a screwdriver, or a stick.

How in your mind does legal carry cause all these shootings that seem to have nothing to do with legal carry?

[jmg257]

28. 50 years ago you could squeeze off a few rounds at presumed bad guys for

various reasons and get away with it.


Most cops these days, and then too, just want to go home at the end of the day to their families.

[braddy]

32. We need to start hiring cops that are not so risk averse, they are killing too many innocent

people and for no good reason, a drunk or mental case with a knife in his hand does not always need to be killed for example, nor does a little boy need to be killed because a cop is to scared to take a small amount of risk to determine what is going on.

We are learning to not even call cops to calm down family arguments, because they are so quick to kill.

I'm sick of cops saying that their top priority is to go home at night, many saying that, are in the wrong line of work.

[jmg257]

36. Risk is a given part of the job, it's expected when you put yourself in harm's way.

It is accepted - knowingly, and just by putting on the uniform.

Still - going home matters. May not be so important to you, but no reason it should not be for them.

[braddy]

37. You ignored my point, they are killing too many people to avoid risk.

We need to look for cops who are less fearful and who are more oriented to protecting the public, cops who are not so willing to kill many of them to proactively remove possible threats.

[jmg257]

38. Sorry - in some cases I agree. And certainly not every cop is in it to be a hero.

Numerous perks in carrying that badge.

[raccoon]

39. Gun owners who are too trigger-happy are killing too many innocent people. nt

[braddy]

40. Before we get into all humans in America, let's first concentrate on the ones that we hire to be

police, and put into uniform, and who we totally control during working hours, and who are part of the government.

[COLGATE4]

47. Thread win.

[bigwillq]

6. This is why I am pro-gun

If the police and government object, then I am all for it.

[Iggo]

7. You gotta have guns in day care centers. Toddlers are more dangerous than terrorists. (n/t)

[Egnever]

19. Sadly that might actually be true.

http://www.snopes.com/toddlers-killed-americans-terrorists/

CLAIM: Toddlers killed more Americans than terrorists in 2015.

TRUE

[ileus]

24. Rural LEOs don't mind, it's normally the Mayors right hand men that object.

[Taitertots]

27. Who cares what they think about it?

They are neither experts in firearms safety data or experts in behavioral sciences. His opinion is trivial.

Should we abdicate our legal system to the whims of an opinionated cop?

[Eleanors38]

42. He should talk to the Chief of Detroit's PD. Old discussion. In GD.

[hack89]

29. Police have always been an obstacle to expanded civil rights.

some things will never change.

[jmg257]

31. I wonder if the chief carries all the time - on duty and off. nt

[Eleanors38]

41. So-o-o glad an old, general discussion of gun laws & police politics makes its way into GD.

This kind of gun law/police brass opinion has been kicked around for YEARS. What makes this latest retread any diff. from the stuff put out for the past 30-40 YEARS? There is nothing trending in Big Newz about this. There are supposed to be exceptions in GD.

[pintobean]

43. You should read Skinner's pinned thread.

News stories (and related content) from reputable mainstream sources about efforts to strengthen or weaken gun control legislation in any jurisdiction in the United States, national news stories (and related content) from reputable mainstream sources about high-profile gun crimes, and viral political content from social media or blogs that would likely be of interest to a large majority of DU members are permitted under normal circumstances.

[Eleanors38]

44. So, full-time, all the time, huh? Why have the exception? Maybe it's that "Consensus®" thing.

[pintobean]

45. That thread is almost two years old.

[Eleanors38]

56. The OP is an old chestnut dating to before Duran Duran...

...just as meaningless then.

[AgerolanAmerican]

51. Aren't the police the first ones to escalate to firearms in most cases?

and worse, to actual military weapons?

[X_Digger]

71. Police objected to Miranda, too. And boy they hate due process. So what?

Free clue: the police are under no obligation to protect you, the individual unless you're in police custody.

Why do you think many criminal defense attorneys will tell you to *never* talk to the police without counsel present?

So I'll take their disapproval on any particular subject with a baseball-sized piece of salt.

[TrappedInUtah]

73. More afraid of the police with guns

To be real I'm almost more afraid of getting shot by a cop than an actual bad guy at the rate things are going. America probably leads the world in police shootings of civilians.