One thing this election will do: Grow more Independents.

[cali]

That's been the trend for years. Americans don't much like either party, though republicans are even held in more disdain than democrats. Indies are 40% of registered voters, far more than either party. I think we may be seeing a significant change in the coming years. What form will that take? One or more new parties? More candidates running as independents? All I know is that the two party system is in worse shape than its been in my lifetime.

[Electric Monk]

1. I posted something similar a week ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511859532

[Igel]

2. Dunno.

Large organizations require a certain amount of tolerance and compromise to allow millions of people to belong. You manage to agree on many of the larger and some of the smaller points, and are content with that.

These days, social networking allows separate, discrete (but overlapping) organizations around single issues, so you never have to deal adequately with people who disagree with you. In other words, we all get to scream "be tolerant" at people we're not about to put up with because they disagree with us. That allows us to want to with those pure like us. Whatever "pure" means for that particular topic.

It may be that we're moving to too atomistic, too individualistic a society, which is bad. Because such societies are easily manipulated, not being able to easily muster groups large enough to resist manipulation.

Or it may be that we'll find another way of forming large collective groups and establish parties with a different set of priorities or properties. We'll see.

[Fuddnik]

3. I went NPA in 2007.

I only came back to Dem to vote for Bernie. I'm hanging around until August to vote for Alan Grayson, then I'm gone again.

Welcome Back!

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Yup

We are at 43 percent by the way. I expect it to reach 50 soon

[Wounded Bear]

5. My anecdotal, personal experience is that independents...

are mostly disaffected Repubs and/or libertarians who tend to vote 'conservatively' anyway. And by 'conservative' I of course mean Republican.

Not many independents in my small circle are truly center-left, probably because the Democratic party has drifted so far to the right trying to attract the center-right part of the electorate. I guess where I'm going is that I think there may be a movement to the left in the independent part of the electorate. At least I hope so. It's been shown for years that most Americans actually are nowhere near as conservative as many pundits like to say. Case in point: Obamacare, in which most people 'opposed' it when presented as a total program, but most people supported every major part of it by wide margins when asked separately.

One major part of our Republic is that the way things are set up, the minority can drive things to a large degree if the true majority is asleep or blocked in some way.

[enlightenment]

14. My anecdotal, personal experience is that independents

are mostly people who run the spectrum and most - and btw, this is also supported by the research - vote more liberal than conservative.

You might want to look at the research: http://www.people-press.org/2015/04/07/a-deep-dive-into-party-affiliation/

[TM99]

29. Your anecdotal evidence

doesn't match the fact that independents are pretty much reflective of the general voting populace. Close to half are left leaning, the other half are right leaning, and a very small percentage claim to be neither, nothing, centrist, etc.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

6. I am waiting for another viable liberal party to emerge.

If Bernie doesn't get the nomination, since he's what Democrats are SUPPOSED TO BE, not corporate suck ups.

Back in the early 1900s through 1920s, there were several active Socialist parties. FDR took most of Norman Thomas' platform in 1932 and enacted it into law to establish labor laws and put people to work and called it the New Deal.

Norman Thomas was a very interesting character, as well as a well-spoken Presbyterian minister. Look him up if any of you are interested.

[Victor_c3]

42. I'm with you on that

If Hillary Clinton is going to be the democratic candidate then I guess that means I'm not a democrat. I grew up believing the Democrat party was a liberal party, but I guess that isn't really the case.

Since when do liberals support war and corporations?

[Mnpaul]

62. Another viable liberal party?

I would settle for one. I had it with failed conservative policies.

[Blue_Tires]

7. We've had third parties and we've had independent candidates before

so what's supposed to be different?

[cali]

8. The level of dissatisfaction with the two partes

And the fact that more and more people are opting out. Independents far outnumber either dems or repubs and that trend is growing.

[msongs]

9. so bernie chooses the democrats and now democrats are bad lol nt

[Blue_Tires]

10. The party, while not perfect, seems to be doing well

on a local/state level (at least where I live)...

So I don't see a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater...

[democrank]

11. Something is different....way different.

For many, many years most of my friends and family were solid, loyal Democrats who went out of their way to be supportive of the party. A few years ago I noticed attitudes started changing and those same people who previously would never utter a word against the Democratic Party establishment began to feel that their party was changing and not in a good way. They stopped contributing to the national party and confined their donations to mostly local, Progressive candidates and causes. Today, most all of them consider themselves to be Independents who would support a Progressive third party in a heartbeat.

The Democratic establishment can sneer all they want, but the number of voters sick and tired of the status quo is growing day by day. And contrary to what you read here, it`s not just a group of youngsters banking on an influx of imaginary unicorns.

In five decades of affiliation with the Democratic Party, I have never, ever personally witnessed so much discontent. Something is happening that is totally outside the control of the party establishment. The level of solidarity among those people who have finally found the courage to stand up and fight back reminds me of the solidarity the anti-Vietnam War protestors shared all those years ago. I do believe there is a movement afoot and Bernie is the beginning, not the end.

Welcome back, Cali.

~PEACE~

[TryLogic]

15. People realize the Dem Party has been bought by corporations and big money.

Clinton(s), Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, etc., etc., etc.

[ciaobaby]

26. So true. And why I will go independent after elections.

[Democat]

37. People do realize you're trolling

On a Democratic site.

[lagomorph777]

41. I agree, except it's not outside the control of the Establishment

They could choose not to say FU to the millions of human beings they claim to represent.

[Raster]

12. Welcome back....

...your voice has been missed.

[thereismore]

13. And yet the TWO parties will insist on nominating their people and have the independents choose

between the two. Something is wrong with this picture.

[TryLogic]

16. Both parties have been bought by corporations and big money.

[pkdu]

52. And Bernie is now a Democrat...go figure! Nt

[IDemo]

17. Unless and until instant runoff voting is enacted, I just don't see a path for independents

And neither party, obviously, has any interest in allowing that to happen.

[jwirr]

18. In my state the caucuses are open and any one who wants

to support the candidate is welcome to vote. But my state is also one of the state parties that made the 32 state democratic party deals with Hillary long before any vote was passed. As a Bernie delegate I am hoping to be able to let them know just exactly how they sold my vote to one candidate and the as an elected official I intend to resign and register Independent.

Why you ask? They made a deal behind our back that made our vote irrelevant and they need to see that we will not take it anymore.

Jimmy Carter among others has told us that we are now an oligarchy. He is right. When you state party starts collecting money for one of two candidates before any election then your vote really does not count and it does not help any that we have a bunch of super-delegates who can do the same thing.

[hfojvt]

21. what are you talking about with deals?

What sort of elected official are you?

[hfojvt]

19. I would have more respect for induhpendents

if they did start their own party.

Otherwise what is their point?

[lostnfound]

30. Are people so one dimensional that they can be characterized with one labeI? Or just a sports game?

So weird that people don't get independents.
I'm a lifelong Democrat but I completely understand thinking that there should be more complexity than a single label to judgments of a candidate. Do the politicians think for themselves, or agree to march in lockstep.

[hfojvt]

31. your explanation is incomprehensible

Are you saying that a registered Democrat is somehow required to vote for the Democratic candidate? Is that what induhpendents believe?

I have a very simple argument as to why somebody should NOT register as an induhpendent.

Because that means you can NOT vote in a primary - usually.

So what is the good reason, any reason for registering induhpendent?

Because they don't want to vote in primaries? (many registered party members also do not bother to vote in primaries, or heck, even in non-presidential elections)

Because they hate both parties? Well, you might hate one of them less if the right candidates were winning the primaries.

Because they kinda like both parties? Again, I still think a person would want to be able to have their say in a primary election, if there is a primary. In this current election in my county we seem unable to find even ONE candidate to run for office, let alone two.

I just cannot see any sensible reason for registering that way.

[lostnfound]

32. In a lot of states, primaries ARE open to independents so your primary arguments don't hold water

...in those states

[Orrex]

34. Of course, it's not that simple, is it?

Sanders' "Independent" supporters seem to think that New York's closed primaries were a serious blow to his chances in that state, and "Independents" didn't help him much in Pennsylvania's closed primary, either. So tell us the value of being an Independent in a closed primary state?

Also, I've known a great many so-called "Independents" in my life, and every single one of them was a voter in lockstep with one party or the other. Yes, I'm sure that you are a different kind of Independent, carefully researching every candidate and deciding on a person-by-person basis, just as I'm sure that all of DU's noble Independents do it. Of course.

In real life, however, every Independent with whom I've ever discussed the matter has in fact been a solid Democrat (or more often a solid Republican) who wanted to imagine that they were more sophisticated than any silly ol' party-affiliated voter.

Even Sanders, the anointed archetypal Independent, was a Democrat in all but registration (until he decided that it would be convenient to campaign as a Democrat, of course). His supporters here famously declare that he's "the real Democrat" and that he's always caucused with the Democrats. So what makes him Independent, exactly?

But, hey! If the goal is to effect an air of incorruptible electoral responsibility, then I guess that it makes sense to claim to be an Independent after all.

[hfojvt]

38. That still also says nothing

about the value of being an independent in an open primary state.

Okay, so my "you cannot vote in primaries" does not work for a reason NOT to - in some states (and for some parties), but still what is the reason FOR doing it, even in an open primary state?

As for solid Democrats, well, I have voted for Republicans as a registered Democrat. In the last campaign I even had a yard sign for the Republican Senator (I believe I can say that on DU since there was NOT a Democrat running against him, even though the Democratic Party in Kansas thought the independent was the great rich hope. I thought he was the greater of two evils.)

Plus, I hoped to set an example for anybody who might pay attention. That is, if I expect at least some Republican voters to vote for some Democratic candidates then I myself should not be all about party lines. If I can support Roberts and Davis (the Democratic candidate for Governor) then they can too.

[Orrex]

39. However, that says nothing...

about the throngs of party-faithful Independents nationwide. As I noted, I'm sure that DU's Independents are all noble, conscientious voters studiously researching every candidate before casting their precious Independent ballots.

What exactly is the value of being an Independent in an open primary state? For that matter, what's the value of any party declaration at all in an open primary state?

[beastie boy]

20. Sadly, this is where all the teabaggers and gun nuts are.

"Independents" has become a refuge for rigid uncompromising reactionaries. Not necessarily a good thing.

And I am an independent since 1984.

[TeamPooka]

22. That's too bad. Imagine what kind of party we could have if everyone got involved and took over

the party the way the Tea Party did to the GOP.

[donnasgirl]

23. I and my Family

Registered Independent right after our Primary and will now remain so until we see a more even handed Democratic Party.

[LiberalLovinLug]

24. Donald is the independent on the right, Bernie was the independent on the left

for all intents and purposes.

Right wing voters got their independent choice.
So-called left wing voters picked the establishment over their independent choice.

Enough Dems oblivious to it all, missed out on the independent wave sweeping the nation, (putting aside the superior platform).

If it was our independent against their independent we would win hands down. Mostly because we have facts and they have easily disproven lies.

But in the year of the anti-establishment candidate movement.....Dems pick the epitome of the corporate Washington insider.

What could go wrong

[cantbeserious]

25. An Independent Is A Citizen That No Longer Believes In The Rigged Establishment Two Party System

eom

[NRaleighLiberal]

27. This is not a black and white, simple situation - independent can be used such different ways

I don't like the term independent used as someone's political "affiliation" because from what I've seen, independent means either intellectually lazy (can't be bothered to seek out the difference in principles and behaviors of the two parties), intellectually dishonest (independent standing for someone quite or leaning right wing but can't bring themselves to call themselves republicans) - or as looking for something different than what we have.

In my case, I am a strong Democrat in terms of the platform and principles (read "ideals&quot of the party - yet for a long time, don't feel as if the D label reflects my interests or beliefs - due to the influx of money, the lure of greed and power.

So I would never call myself an independent - I have strong beliefs, and they lie strongly to the left.

I think I am more a disenfranchised, cast away Democrat - Bernie Sanders principles reflect very well where I am. Hillary Clinton's principles reflect much that is wrong with current Democrats as a label.

[Eko]

28. Independents are also people

Last edited Wed May 4, 2016, 09:54 PM - Edit history (2)

who have no idea what a closed primary is and when they cant participate in the process because they have abandoned the idea of being remotely educated in politics call that voter suppression. Others are like Sanders himself, smart as a whip and very moral, but then again they caucus with the democratic party and will actually vote for the nominee regardless of who it is.

[Kingofalldems]

33. Thankfully this is a site for Democrats.

If you want to be an independent this is probably not the place for you.

[donnasgirl]

35. Now that i and my Family

Have chosen to register Independent are you suggesting we should no longer be here.

[Kingofalldems]

36. That's up to you.

It is a site for Democrats though. So there's that.

[donnasgirl]

40. We have been Democrats all of our lives

We now despise what has become dirty Politics in our view and if enough people were to do it, it would wake up the Politicians to the fact people are not taking it any more.

[TeamPooka]

44. So your theory is that if enough peiople registered as an independant the two parties would

roll over for you?
That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.
The reason they don't listen to the people more is that voters have checked out and left the worst folks to run and manipulate the system.
If everyone got involved and took over the parties from the grass roots up then they would have to listen and be responsive to voters with policies and platforms that matter.
The "both parties are the same bullshit" is designed to drive you away so they can run things without citizen interference.
You fell for it and they are winning because of your attitude.
Congrats to you

[donnasgirl]

45. The dumbest fucking thing i have ever

Heard is your response there is no need for vile responses Pooka, your opinion is well taken but whether you like it or not others are entitled to theirs. I hope people wake up and realize that independents or people who identify as such now out number Democrats or Republicans and the number is growing every day.

[TeamPooka]

46. and by opting out they are letting others control their lives. nt

[donnasgirl]

47. How so

[TeamPooka]

48. in the way I outlined in the previous posts. Did you not understand it?

[donnasgirl]

49. By going Independent you made the claim

That allows other people to control you and that is the furthest thing from the truth.

[TeamPooka]

50. you're letting the people you let run the pparties make the choices instead of

taking over.
This is what the Tea party did in the GOP. They run the show now.
You want to not do that and thus make the Democratic party more liberal by being an independent and taking your ball and going home.
Some one is still going to run the Democratic Party if you're not there and you will be stuck with their choices.

[donnasgirl]

55. We are going to have to agree to disagree

I and many others do not see it that way.

[haikugal]

56. Some people can only see and think blue team, red team. I think people are going to leave that

behind. Some people are also abrasive just to get a rise, or a pay check...who knows.

[donnasgirl]

57. The other night i wrote

That I have a friend in PA who made the statement that 60,000 PA Democrats left the party, and low and behold that was true. This is happening from both sides of the isle, people in the Country are tired of the old schtick of Dem vs Repug, I am not in any way saying I know the reason but my husband who is a Truck driver is hearing this everywhere he goes.

[haikugal]

58. Enough is enough!

[LannyDeVaney]

60. Great, go family! That's not the point. This is a site for Democrats...

Rant away.

This is a site for Democrats. And I assume (if history holds), it is about to become STRICTLY a site for Democrats.

[CobaltBlue]

53. Take your message to Hillary Clinton’s campaign!

I am sure they will gladly want to tell all independents to go ____ __________.

[pnwmom]

43. Not if they want to vote in closed primaries. There are a lot of new Bernie Dems out there.

If he stays with the party why do you think they will leave?

And he has said he'll be remaining a Democrat.

[HooptieWagon]

51. I'm going NPA after our local primary.

I think indies will outnumber both parties combined in the near future. Both parties only serve wealthy special interests.

[panader0]

54. The future elections will show this to be true.

I'm sad that my lifelong party has moved so far to the right. Many progressives feel the same way.
Independents can be left or right leaning. If the Democratic party is to survive they must show
themselves as and clear a different choice, not just Republican lite. Then perhaps the Independents may rejoin
the party.

[Samantha]

59. I have posted this a couple of times but here it is again because I just can't get over it

Right before MA voted, the Secretary of State came out and said 20,000 Democrats had left the Democratic party this year so far. 3,000 of them registered with the GOP; the rest registered as Independents. All I could think was, how many more will leave the Democratic party when this election is over. I cannot imagine the number....

Sam

[AgadorSparticus]

61. I hope so. Politics in the US needs massive paradigm shifting

And the exciting part is...it is happening right in front of our eyes. Hillary needs to make big changes from her past when she takes office or the democratic party will sustain the same fracturing as the GOP. The writing is on the wall. The revolution has just begun. If the democratic party is smart, they will adjust and make changes from their politics as usual. It is exciting to see if that actually happens or if it will splinter off. Hopefully, they are smarter than the GOP.

[pnwmom]

63. I doubt it. People have learned that if they want a vote in a closed primary, they have to commit

to one of the parties.

And so millions more are now registered Dems.