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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSomeone please reassure me
I need for someone to calm me down with the assurance that Clinton ( if that's how it winds up ) will beat Trump handily. I never thought he stood a chance at the nomination.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)Donald Trump was the runaway winner in the Indiana primary, as expected. Polls, and the demographics of the state, had suggested as much. And as usual during this election, theyve been proven right.
Less than three weeks ago, Mr Trumps odds had fallen to 55 per cent. Now, he is as likely to be the Republican nominee as Hillary Clinton is to be the Democratic nominee, with both a 98 per cent favourite in the betting markets.
Now that hes wrapped up the nomination, his chances of being Americas next president have shot up from 17 per cent to 29 per cent. But that still makes Hillary Clinton a 69 per cent favourite (Mr Sanders or some other Republican both have a 1 per cent chance).
That means Ms Clinton begins this six-month race more favoured than any other candidate in modern history: more than Mr Obama ever was against John McCain in 2008 or Mitt Romney in 2012, or George Bush was against Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry in 2004.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/trump-clinton-begins-as-the-most-lopsided-race-in-the-modern-era-a7012321.html
TDale313
(7,820 posts)I absolutely want her to win. I think she probably will. But I am by no means confident and I am not underestimating him or overestimating the American people.
basselope
(2,565 posts)What people are not stopping to consider in their analysis is that in the most important swing states the GOP has spent the last 6 years shoring up their voter suppression efforts in Florida, Wisconsin, North Carolina and Ohio.
They also completely underestimate Trump's ability to say basically anything he wants and keep his core supporters, so he can move to the middle with little to no consequences.
They are also overestimating Clinton's appeal. She does not have the depth of support to drive turnout in any significant numbers, which is what you would need to overcome the voter suppression efforts in the key swing states.
Finally.. Trump is going to destroy her in the debates for one main reason. He is going to portray Clinton as an establishment politician who is easily bought and sold and he has proof, because he has the receipt. He gave the Clinton Foundation 100K in return for favors. She's can't spin her way out of that moment when he looks her in the eye and says "I bought access to you, thus, you are clearly for sale".
She doesn't win in November. Sorry.
But, the good news is that the democrats will likely keep enough in the Senate to stall anything he does.. he will seem ineffective and thin skinned when he doesn't get his way and will be easy to defeat with a decent candidate in 2020.
deathrind
(1,786 posts)And most likely right on target...unfortunately.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)But I hear nothing from her. Hillary must refute every statement trump says. It is critical.
Kingofalldems
(38,454 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)just a c-note maybe?
mac56
(17,566 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)He's basically a wealthier male Sarah Palin.
basselope
(2,565 posts)There is a LONG time to go until the election and Trump is tapping into something that very few people have figured out. Remember, he wasn't supposed to get the nomination in the first place.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)Conservatism is on the ropes, as is the GOP.
Also winning the GOP nomination is very different from winning the general.
Actually once I saw Trump win Hew Hampshire, I predicted he would win the nom. It wasn't that hard to see. Political pundits are mostly dumb.
This is not to say that he couldn't be elected-- we must be vigilant-- but it shouldn't take a brilliant campaign to beat him.
basselope
(2,565 posts)The more the GOP "establishment" rejects him, the stronger he becomes.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)I don't see him winning the presidency though
basselope
(2,565 posts)Caveat #1) IF a 3rd party candidate comes along to split the anti-establishment vote.
Caveat #2) The Senate continues to sit on its hands with the SC seat (which I don' think they will do), b/c that would be a strong wedge issue for Clinton.
Barring one of those 2 things. Trump is more likely to win than not for a few reason.
The GOP has spent the last 8 years improving their voter suppression strategy in key swing states. It takes overwhelming and dedicated voter turnout to overcome that. I don't see that turnout happening with an establishment candidate.
Trump has the ultimate play on Clinton. He can show she is a bought and paid for politician, b/c he has the receipts to prove it. That will come out in the debates and be a focus of his campaign.
Finally.. the October surprise will be the release of video of Clinton's speeches to Wall Street, which will further depress democratic base turnout.
Clinton is already making the mistake of running to the middle turning this election into establishment vs anti-establishment and its a battle the establishment can't win.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Women and poc will not be voting for him.
basselope
(2,565 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)He will lose PoC by large margins, but that doesn't matter, republicans ALWAYS lose PoC by large margins.
Women... Al Gore won women 54/43 against bush and we all know how that turned out.
If Trump can get 45% of women, he can win, ESPECIALLY if voter turnout is depressed, which it is likely to be.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)but I don't think it's very likely either.
basselope
(2,565 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)but they could well blow it too
http://gawker.com/dont-blow-this-1775111772?rev=1462551339112
basselope
(2,565 posts)Like Florida, Ohio and North Carolina.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)I could see Hillary winning Florida, for sure.
But according to this, she could even get to 270 without winning any of those states.
http://www.270towin.com/maps/M4OY2
basselope
(2,565 posts)There are several states (Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, Wisconsin) that, having been under GOP control of the last several years, have perfected depressing the democratic vote. A democratic candidate would need OVERWHELMING turnout in these states to overcome these obstacles. Clinton simply isn't going to drive that type of turnout.
Giving her PA, NV, IA or WI is wishful thinking at best.
So many assumptions on that map that make no sense.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)No one in this country can win a GE without AAs and Latino votes. It is impossible. He can win without women either and he will not have that vote. Sorry to be such a downer for you.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)in 2000 bush got OBLITERATED in the women vote 54/43. He lost it in 2004 also.
Romney got LESS of the Latino vote in 2012 than McCain in 2008 but the election was much closer.
You are making the big mistake... applying the old standards to a new paradigm.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Unfortunately not based in reality
basselope
(2,565 posts)Skittles
(153,150 posts)they're PATHETIC
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)preconceptions instead of for information results in. How else to explain it?
Here's reality, JHRobbins:
The GOP has essentially abandoned all hope of winning the presidency. Almost all GOP leaders are publicly saying they will not support or vote for Trump, a message to their electorate.
Black money ultraconservatives, with something like $950 million readied for 2016, were not able to invest any of it in a winnable candidate for the presidency and abandoned that office to the Democrats earlier in the year, diverting all their attention to down-ticket races. They've also, I feel sure, had to abandon plans for election tampering at the presidential level (only). Things are so bad that electronic voting machine vulnerabilities simply cannot be used to throw the election to Trump. Great joke on them--as far as it goes.
This is reality, JHRobbins. Expect some nervous palpitations as the press pumps up an occasional good moment for Trump here and there, but no.
brush
(53,771 posts)There is so much damaging videos of Trump hating on Latinos, women, blacks, gays, handicapped just about everybody but angry whites.
There are not enough angry whites to offset the groups who will vote blue, including some independents who are not a monolith and come in all stripes from right-leaning conservative independents to moderates to left-leaning progressive independents.
Hillary will get her share of the latter two and Trump will get his share.
I'm betting the moderates to left-leaning progressive independents in the end won't vote to allow Trump to appoint the next 3 SCOTUS justices as that would assure a huge,rightward, generational shift of the whole country (gutting of the social safety net (Social Security gone, Medicare and Medicaid gone, pensions raided, the rest of unions gone), gutting of the rest of the civil rights acts of the 60s, deregulation of banking and environmental legislation (thinf Flint, MI everywhere) in other words, we'd all get screwed with no possibility of change for generations.
And of course the Obama coalition will not be voting for Trump sensible progressive whites who don't want Trump appointing the next 3 SCOTUS justices, Latino Americans, African Americans, women, gays, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and sensible, left-leaning and moderate independents collectively these demographic segments are who mostly voted for and elected President Obama twice, and will also elect the Dem nominee to the presidency most likely Clinton.
Notice pls that they are a very diverse group, not the angry whites and/or racist whites who support Trump, and we outnumber them.
These groups will stand in line for hours to vote, just as they did in 2012 to overcome repug vote suppression crap so you can stop praying for a Trump win.
Hillary will kick his no-knowledge-of-policy-butt in the debates, just as she did those repug clowns for 11 straight hours at the last Benghazi hearings.
Trump will lose spectacularly. Even prominent repugs are deserting ship.
drray23
(7,627 posts)If you take into account that Trump has very limited appeal, mainly angry white racist people it is hard to see how he could win. He is despised by the african american and latino community, alienated so many women that many moderate republican woman are considering voting for Hillary. He would be a disaster as a commander in chief which will make even more people vote against him.
On top of that, he will face Hillary and Obama's political machines which will guarantee a massive GOTV effort and lots of money. Trump has yet to build a coherent political structure to run a general election campaign since he can not self finance a GE run. He needs to start raising money. However he has upset the GOP leadership which means he wont get enough help from them. Many of Bush's et al donors will sit on their hands or even donate for Hillary. etc..
Furthermore, he has a metric ton of baggage that has not been exploited by the media but will be by the democrats. Anybody with a modicum of political acumen realizes he is toast. Cruz was more worrisome, Kasich might even have won. Among you list is Florida. Hillary is currently a double digit favorite there against trump. Both Hillary or Bernie will wipe the floor with Trump.
basselope
(2,565 posts)And Obama's GOTV effort LOST 10 million voters from 2008 to 2012. Hillary's GOTV effort is even worse.
Hillary is currently ahead by 5 in aggregate polling in Florida.. but the polls have been wrong, tilting in the "establishment" favor in about 90% of the contests, b/c they are using old metrics of determining likely voters.
Latest example: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/in/indiana_democratic_presidential_primary-5807.html
This election isn't about D v R .. it is about establishment vs anti-establishment and THAT is why Trump is likely to win.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)by the process he said corrupts everyone? Corruption is a two-way street, and he's claiming that he bought access. I don't see how that argument helps him.
basselope
(2,565 posts)He gets away with this because he can claim it WON'T corrupt him, whereby he can prove that Clinton was actually corrupted, b/c he has the receipts and pictures to prove it.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)don't prove anything.
And if he views himself as essentially bribing politicians, then he is as corrupt as anyone he's accusing.
basselope
(2,565 posts)Its the exactly same thinking that got Trump the nomination, when it was considered impossible.
The fact that he was able to buy someone only proves that the person he bought can be bought, not that he is "corrupt".. he was just "Playing the system".
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)broader spectrum of voters, especially women and people of color, who won't be bamboozled by him.
basselope
(2,565 posts)No one is immune.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)pnwmom
(108,977 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)You sound just like the GOP as they denied he had a chance.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)They want to regain the power they THOUGHT they had over their own party.
Paul Ryan is trying a power play, but is about to learn that it is he who is going to have to kiss Trump's ring.
Ultimately, both Trump and Clinton have net negative ratings among women (Clinton less so, but still more women have an unfavorable opinion, than a favorable one).
This is not the advantage people think it is.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)To Supreme Court Justice Ted Cruz
basselope
(2,565 posts)DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)and he knows that would be a cheap way to get the holy rollers off his back
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)I make no prediction, but Trump is a wild card with the emphasis on wild.
Some nasty story may arise that takes away the "sexual purity" voters who are the Repuke base, and most moderates think the guy is a loon by all measures. Bernie or Hillary will definitely be the moderates' selection.
However, with election fraud and various other factors at play, who knows. But we will make it through no matter who is elected.
I say this as one who has survived living through the presidencies of Nixon and Reagan.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)They've already voted for Trump, knowing that he's a serial philanderer.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)when you look at it that way.
But then a lot of the "sexual purity" voters are also people of color, who have hesitations about voting for Trump for their own reasons. Not the R base by any means but enough to take away votes from Trump.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)votes to throw the election to Trump, against all the polls, anti-Trump demonstrations, and everything else that's going on? Discrepancies impossible to miss would blast it wide open.
Best that we all look to our state elections. IMO, they're in grave danger. The black money billionaires are determined to advance or at least hold the line in the U.S. and state legislatures and judgeships there.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)As for fraud, I don't know if enough votes could be diverted to throw it, but I hope you are right.
Maeve
(42,281 posts)The nonpartisan Cook Political Report has shifted 11 states on its election scorecard toward Democrats since Donald Trump became the presumptive Republican presidential nominee.
This has been an exceedingly unpredictable year, the analyst said. Although we remain convinced that Hillary Clinton is very vulnerable and would probably lose to most other Republicans, Donald Trump's historic unpopularity with wide swaths of the electorate women, millennials, independents and Latinos make him the initial November underdog.
Colorado, Florida, Pennsylvania, Virginia and Wisconsin were all shifted from toss-up states to leaning Democratic. The solid Republican states Missouri and Indiana were downgraded to likely Republican. New Mexico is now solidly Democratic, and North Carolina is a toss-up after leaning Republican.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)of ALL the GOP hopefuls this year, starting with their rejection by their own electorate and then moving on to their many personal liabilities. (Why?)
By yesterday's standards they are all hard-right conservatives, the vast majority with a long history of supporting and continuing the giant-sucking-sound policies that are blowing up in their faces now, even the ones touted as more moderate.
TeamPooka
(24,223 posts)kicked their ass twice.
And we'll do it again this year.
JHB
(37,159 posts)Always err on the side of making sure we crush them like a bug.
surrealAmerican
(11,360 posts)I have no faith in the American voter or electoral system since then.
Clinton might win. Trump might win. Vermin Supreme, however, won't.
pampango
(24,692 posts)all-powerful and destroys all who come before him - except for Bernie, of course, who will drive him into the ground then plant a tree on top of him.
"Unofficially" I would say her chances are extremely good. The Donald has done quite well competing for votes in an essentially 'whites only' party. The world is about to change for him.
Perhaps he can adjust his racism, misogyny and xenophobia to appeal to a more diverse group. I am skeptical. There is a reason that most American do not belong to the 'whites only' party in which Donald has been competing so well. Many of them are not white. And many whites are not afraid of minorities and foreigners the way Donald's base seems to be.
Donald has laughed at the GOP 2012 post-mortem that stated that republicans cannot win a national election with a 'whites only' base of support. Donald seems to be saying, "We'll see about that. You can certainly still win the republican presidential nomination quite handily with a 'whites only' approach."
"Now I just need to keep scaring whites with the evil Mexicans, Muslims, Chinese and foreigners in general to increase the turnout of our white base. Then I need to attract enough liberals who, though they may be offended by my racism and misogyny, are attracted to my America First platform and don't like Hillary."
"And, of course, I need to run an incredibly nasty campaign. (What other kind is there? ) Nasty campaigns turn off infrequent voters. This favors republicans who always do well in low-turnout off-year elections because our white base shows up and votes."
Complacency in politics is as deadly as it is in love, war and most other aspects of life. Our chances look good but relaxing is something we should not do.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Thanks for the image. Gave me a good laugh.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)[center][/center]
http://www.gallup.com/poll/187922/clinton-admired-woman-record-20th-time.aspx
onehandle
(51,122 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)...and the highest unfavorables.
That's a fact.
AND....Millennials don't vote for "admired woman"
mac56
(17,566 posts)and I don't understand its relevance.
As has already been posted, it's been shown in several polls that her "dislike" percentages are very high. What makes those polls invalid, and THIS one golden?
Plus, as has been mentioned, millenials don't vote in the "most admired man/woman" contest.
It's a non argument as far as I can tell.
mnmoderatedem
(3,727 posts)if the donald's refusal to release his tax returns, which every other candidate on both sides has done
An enormous amount of mileage can be gleaned from this. Either he still refuses, and looks to be hiding the fact that he pays a far less rate then the rest of us, or reluctantly concedes, and we see how much less he pays that the rest of us.
Either way a political winner.
DawgHouse
(4,019 posts)bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)than Bernie because he would win hands down. Bernie Sanders for President!
brush
(53,771 posts)It's Clinton v Trump now and he will lose spectacularly.
DesMoinesDem
(1,569 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)A great number of people are going to be unwilling to vote for him.
xloadiex
(628 posts)who were blocked from the primaries along with the droves of people who are already leaving the Dem party will be voting in the GE. My bet is they won't be voting for Clinton.
jamese777
(546 posts)in 2012 Romney got 50% of the Independent vote and Obama got 45% with 5% going for other candidates. President Obama still won by 5 million votes.
For 2016 Latino voter registration in particular is way up and the overwhelming majority are registering as Democrats.
Gallup Poll:
"In politics, as of today, do you consider yourself a Republican, a Democrat or an Independent?"
Asked of Independents: "Do you lean more toward the Democratic Party or the Republican Party?"
April 6-10, 2016
Republicans: 25%
Independents: 44%
Democrats: 31%
Republicans + Independents who lean Republcan: 41%
Democrats + Independents who lean Democratic: 49%
egalitegirl
(362 posts)The turnout for Republicans is higher than the turnout for Democrats and so I think Trump wins. This would not have happened if Bernie's supporters and independents had been allowed to vote everywhere. If Bernie Sanders is the nominee, he wins. If Hillary is the nominee, Trump wins.
But Hillary folks can take heart. What difference does it make if it is Hillary or Jeb Bush or Donald Trump? They are all right wing. So you get your pick at least by proxy. It is the Bernie supporters who have to feel disappointed.
brush
(53,771 posts)And Trump has been running in the all-white repug party.
Things are about to change for him in the general election where there is such a thing as diversity and where it has been shown in 2012 and 2008 that there are not enough angry/racist whites to elect a president by themselves anymore.
The Obama coalition, ever heard of them, will not be voting for Trump sensible progressive whites who don't want Trump appointing the next 3 SCOTUS justices, Latino Americans, African Americans, women, gays, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and sensible, left-leaning and moderate independents who also don't want Trump appointing the next 3 SCOTUS justices collectively these demographic segments are who mostly voted for and elected President Obama twice, and will also elect the Dem nominee to the presidency most likely Clinton.
We, the above, outnumber the angry/racist white Trump supporters.
jamese777
(546 posts)Hillary Clinton: 12,560,495
Donald Trump: 10,717,357
Bernie Sanders: 9,446,132
Ted Cruz: 7,325,796
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016
jamese777
(546 posts)CNN/ORC Poll. April 28-May 1, 2016. N=890 registered voters nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.5.
"If Hillary Clinton was the Democratic Party's candidate and Donald Trump was the Republican Party's candidate, who would you be more likely to vote for?" If neither, who do you lean more toward? Options rotated
Hillary Clinton (D): 54%
Donald Trump (R): 41%
Other: 1%
Neither: 4%
Unsure: --
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh16gen.htm
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)people will actually vote in November. Half of Democrats would not vote for Hillary even with no other option and would throw the election to Trump as the alternative? Ridiculous.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Polls show Bernie beating Trump significantly better than HRC.
And-----no polling has been done since the MSM has tip toed into the scandal.
In a couple of weeks, I expect HRC's numbers to drop significantly.
Butterbean
(1,014 posts)U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Let THAT sink in for a moment.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)I have no clue who will get the most votes. It all depends on who turns up to vote and who stays home.
It will be an ugly, personal campaign. The uglier it is, the more that turnout is depressed, as some people just turn off the whole damn thing. Low turnout hurts Democrats.
Some people will crawl through glass to vote against Hillary. Some people will crawl through glass to vote against Trump. Some people will look at the pictures of Trump/Clinton smiling at his wedding and conclude they won't vote for either member of 'the club.'
Schwarzenegger won the governorship in California when no other Republican could get elected statewide. Don't underestimate the power of celebrity.
Trump rails against bad trade deals, while Democrats have likely chosen as their nominee the wife of the guy who signed NAFTA. People in economic despair have nothing but bad choices available. So how will they vote, if at all?
One thing you might find reassuring, though I don't like it one bit: the people who rig the voting machines will likely do so in favor of Clinton, not Trump. She's the one in the race most likely to feed the military industrial complex, funnel lots of money to Wall Street, and keep the gravy train rolling along as usual for the 1%.
So, it's a confusing toss-up of crazy factors. Either could get the most votes, but I guess I'll go with Clinton being declared the winner. The Establishment is firmly on her side, and she'll get all the breaks they can give her, including election fraud.
Timmy5835
(373 posts)To win the general election Trump needs at least 48% of the Latino vote, think he can get that?????
Chan790
(20,176 posts)Don't take my word for it. Ask Charlie Cook, he gets paid a lot of money to predict outcomes of elections for the benefit of his clients, some of whom are among the biggest corporations in America.
http://cookpolitical.com/presidential/charts/scorecard
He's projecting that more than 304 EC votes lie in states that lean, likely or are solidly Democratic.
Another 44 lie in toss-up states, several of which also probably favor Hillary.
oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)Her comments about unity were misunderstood by me. For her, unity is uniting the repubs and the dems!
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)Even if they won't like all her policies, it's better than having President Nuclear Weapons and President "I like to gamble with debt" at the helm.
elleng
(130,883 posts)Dems need an an anti-establishment candidate to win.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)and she represents the status quo. I'm guessing people will overlook Trump's many flaws and vote for the outsider. Just a guess, though.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)But I do think that it is not a guaranteed thing for the Democratic nominee. This article makes some fairly decent, if bleak, points regarding the cultural and ideological phenomenon that are surrounding Trump.
https://zeroanthropology.net/2016/05/04/why-donald-j-trump-will-be-the-next-president-of-the-united-states/
Feathery Scout
(218 posts)Right now, Trump isn't even getting his own party to vote for him. Sure, he has the right-wing zealots and racists. That seems to be good for about 15 million votes, as we are seeing in the Primary.
But he needs another 50-55 million votes to win the Presidency. And he gets those numbers from moderate Repubs, Independents, first-time voters (already counted in the Primary numbers BTW) and cross-over Dems.
And right now he can't get the Republican Party leaders to support him, to get the full amount of 10's of millions of moderate Republican votes. Both living ex-Republican Presidents have publicly shunned him. As has 2012 nominee Romney. The highest elected Republican, Paul Ryan, refuses to endorse Trump.
Trump's VP list is filled with has-beens. All promising politicians have publicly disavowed interest.
So....it's not a shoo-in for the Dem candidate.
But, Trump is running on a non-Republican platform, under the Republican banner....,and that is causing enormous disruption within the party.
Kilgore
(1,733 posts)You do at your own peril! !
Corey_Baker08
(2,157 posts)Anybody But Trump
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)Try to get realistic numbers that result in a Trump victory. It ain't easy.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)1. he's less conservative
2. he doesn't care about social issues
3. he's not religious
4. he has less power in his party than other leaders of the party have traditionally had, which means people won't risk their seats to vote for something he wants and is unpopular
Trump is awful, but he is sig less awful than having a President Cruz or even a President Rubio would be.
So take comfort in that.
Plus half of DU agree with him about NAFTA and TPP so there is that as well.