The massive U.S. bombing of a MSF Hospital in Afghanistan was a war crime

[cali]

Last edited Mon May 9, 2016, 05:09 AM - Edit history (1)

its own investigatory report that excuses itself from war crimes, makes it clear that war crimes were committed. The laxity, justifications and excuses are about all we can expect.

And I'm damn sick of the ridiculous meme bio about how all service members are heroes and the best of the best.

They're just humans.

<snip>



The report details violations of the law of armed conflict committed by U.S. forces on the ground in Kunduz and in the AC-130 aircraft that carried out the attack that destroyed the hospital. The report notes, for instance, that the ground commander who ordered the strike and the aircrew "failed to comply with the LOAC (laws of armed conflict)" by making an "unreasonable" determination that the MSF facility was a lawful target and an unjustified blanket determination that all at the site were combatants, and ordering the attack on persons at the site even after observing that they did not appear to be armed or engaging in hostile activity.

Not all laws of war violations are war crimes -- only serious violations committed with criminal intent or recklessness. Yet two of the report's findings make clear that serious violations occurred. First, the attack was unlawfully indiscriminate because "neither commander distinguished between combatants and civilians nor a military objective and protected (civilian) property." Second, even if the commanders reasonably believed they were carrying out an attack on a lawful target, the report found that the attack was unlawfully disproportionate to the expected military gain of the attack.

<snip>

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/04/opinions/kunduz-hospital-report-sifton/

[Ichingcarpenter]

1. 80 Countries Just Slammed the US Over Habit of Bombing Hospitals

Saudi Arabia, the United States, and their allies have developed a nasty habit of “epidemic” proportions in various military theaters, particularly around the Middle East — bombing hospitals, healthcare facilities, and, in at least one instance, an ambulance. But despite countless pleas from humanitarian organization Médicins Sans Frontières (MSF, Doctors Without Borders), that bombing continues, so the United Nations was finally forced to issue its own resolution on the matter.


Resolution 2286, co-sponsored by 80 member nations, condemns attacks on medical personnel and facilities in conflict situations and demands “an end to impunity for those responsible and respect for international law on the part of all warring parties.”



Though it might seem superficially absurd to issue a condemnation for something so patently fundamental, evidence of its necessity remains unfortunately prevalent in headlines.


One egregious example came at the end of April in the conclusion of an investigation into the targeted bombing of an MSF hospital facility in Kunduz, Afghanistan, on October 3 of last year. Though 16 U.S. service members were found responsible for the attack, accountability in the form of punishment lacked the severity warranted for the deaths of 42 medical staff, patients, and civilians.


“The 16 found at fault include a two-star general, the crew of an Air Force AC-130 attack aircraft, and Army special forces personnel, according to U.S. officials who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the internal investigations” with the Los Angeles Times. “One officer was suspended from command and forced out of Afghanistan. The other 15 were given lesser punishments: Six were sent to counseling, seven were issued letters of reprimand, and two were ordered to retraining courses.”



It would be difficult, when taken with the magnitude of what actually took place in the Kunduz hospital attack, to classify such a punishment as even slaps on the wrists of those responsible.

“Many staff describe people being shot, most likely from the [AC-130] plane, as people tried to flee the main hospital building that was being hit with each airstrike,” MSF said in a statement following the bombing. “Some accounts mention shooting that appeared to follow the movement of people on the run.”

Yemen

Between March and November 2015, the U.S.-backed coalition managed to bomb nearly 100 hospitals in war-ravaged Yemen — though with the media’s attention trained on the imbroglio raging in Syria, that report caused little more than a ripple. Echoing innumerable unanswered pleas by MSF, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) asserted the targeting of health facilities “represent a flagrant violation of international humanitarian law.”


http://theantimedia.org/us-slammed-for-bombing-hospitals/

[uhnope]

12. welcome back from yr time out but the article you link to is a total lie

The article is headlined "80 Countries Just Slammed the US Over Habit of Bombing Hospitals" -- but the UN resolution it links to was condemning all bombings of all hospitals, and mainly talks about Syria! A total lying article on a website, "antimedia", which is so cynical and so contemptuous of its readers that it apparently presumes no one will click the link and glance at the actual UN resolution.

A lying article from an anti-democracy AmerSux website. WTF?

[7962]

17. You are always spot on! Thanks for pointing that out

[choie]

51. So this is what we've come to

Being apologists for the United States govt because there's a Dem in office?

[Ichingcarpenter]

32. From the United Nations site: Resolution 2286,

3 MAY 2016

SC/12347

Security Council Adopts Resolution 2286 (2016), Strongly Condemning Attacks against Medical Facilities, Personnel in Conflict Situations


Red Cross, Médecins Sans Frontières Heads, Secretary-General Brief Members
Strongly condemning attacks on medical personnel in conflict situations today, the Security Council unanimously adopted a resolution demanding an end to impunity for those responsible and respect for international law on the part of all warring parties.

Adopting resolution 2286 (2016), which was co-sponsored by more than 80 Member States, the 15-member Council strongly condemned attacks and threats against the wounded and sick, medical personnel and humanitarian personnel exclusively engaged in medical duties, their means of transport and equipment, as well as hospitals and other medical facilities. It deplored the long-term consequences of such attacks for the civilian populations and health-care systems of the countries concerned.

Also by the text, the Council demanded that all parties to armed conflict comply fully with their obligations under international law, including international human rights law, as applicable, and international humanitarian law, in particular their obligations under the Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Additional Protocols of 1977 and 2005. It demanded also that all parties to armed conflict facilitate safe and unimpeded passage for medical and humanitarian personnel.

“When so-called surgical strikes are hitting surgical wards, something is deeply wrong,” United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said after the text’s adoption, adding: “Even wars have rules.” Urging all parties to conflict and other relevant actors to heed the Council’s demands, he said “the Council and all Member States must do more than condemn such attacks. They must use every ounce of influence to press parties to respect their obligations.”

More: http://www.un.org/press/en/2016/sc12347.doc.htm


Action

The Security Council took action on the draft before it, unanimously adopting resolution 2286 (2016).

[uhnope]

33. you're intentionally deceiving, aren't you?

The resolution is not focused on the US at all, but on bombing hospitals in general.

Why don't you quote lines like this:

Similarly, MSF President Joanne Liu described the situation in some of the world’s bloodiest conflicts, citing 300 air strikes on Aleppo, Syria, in the last 10 days.

...

She also voiced regret over last week’s horrific attack in Aleppo, which had killed at least 27 people, saying it was clear that the Syrian regime was deliberately targeting medical workers and facilities.

.

[msongs]

2. arent you glad bernie votes every year to continue this sort of thing. nt

[cali]

3. That's such a disgusting false claim. SHAME.

Beneath contempt.

But yes, I'm proud of Bernie for voting against starting wars, yet voting for funding the troops once warmongering assholes or congresscritters with dog shit judgment or who voted yes out of sick political calculation.


Those people have blood on their hands.

[NobodyHere]

54. How is it false

Bernie voted for the Afghan war and recently supported keeping troops in Afghanistan.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

50. Pure grade-A bullshit (lie), not surprising comin from you. Your credibility is non-existent. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. (MSF. not MSN)

[Duppers]

6. You are correct.

Médecins Sans Frontières or Doctors Without Borders.

I'm a monthly donor.

Another thread on MSF/DWB:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027816351

[cali]

7. Thanks. I hate autocorrect

[bemildred]

36. A dumb idea, badly carried out. nt

[emsimon33]

5. K&R

[malaise]

8. Don't you know the West can kill who they want

with impunity - the entire Iraq 'war and occupation' is a war crime.
Meanwhile Bush is at the games for the servicemen and women who were injured because of his illegal war and occupation.

[truebluegreen]

39. Yup. And not for the first time:

After WWII we defined war crimes as stuff the other guys did that we didn't. Thus, waterboarding was a war crime but firebombing civilian populations like those in Dresden and Tokyo? Not so much.

[malaise]

40. Precisely

And what is frightening is how many of us who are willing to give ourselves a pass because 'we're so much better than everyone else'. What a freaking joke.

[truebluegreen]

46. I agree. It makes my skin crawl

to see posters here--or anywhere--excusing our misdeeds with "those guys are worse!" Even assuming they are (not necessarily the case I think) weren't any of these apologists taught, in their youth, that "two wrongs don't make a right"? Have they no moral compass at all? (that was a rhetorical question; I already know the answer).

[malaise]

47. And we wonder why our planet is in such a mess

Rules do not apply to 'our children, our clubs, our religion, our ideology, our town, our country, our people'.
We're diseased with bias.

[truebluegreen]

48. That's what corruption does in societies:

rules are for the other people. And the moneyed interests have been successful at corrupting the process everywhere, to the extent that no one can tax them, no one can prosecute them, no one can hold them accountable, here or anywhere.

[malaise]

49. Precisely

We either have 'rule of law' for all or for none

[GulfCoast66]

63. I agree with the spirit of your post

But when talking about the fire bombings of WWII...well we actually were so much better than the Nazi's and JIA.

And if you insist on equating us with them you will find you have a scant few supporters outside the fringe on DU.

[uhnope]

9. hmm...why are 1000 posts about this accident to every 1 post about Russian/Assad careless bombings

of hospitals and refugee camps? Russia & Assad don't announce any investigations, don't detail how they are going to avoid such things in the future. They just move on and bomb the next hospital. And use banned weapons like cluster bombs at will all over Syria. And carpet bomb any place Assad's enemies may be, whether there are civilians there or not. With total impunity, as the children of Syria wash up dead on the shores of Greece.

But forget all these things which have happened since the tragic accident the US was responsible for, yeah forget all that which has happened since and is happening today. Because America Sux, right? Ignore the worst examples of the same tragedies, and while you're at it, ignore the bulwark of authoritarian governance being promoted into the west by a homophobic, free-press-destroying, dissident-assassinating fascist world power.

Right, just keep distracting yourself with this. I expect to continue to see the rending of garments about this for years, about all the things we know about this incident because of the democratic openness of the US, and nothing about continuing worse examples of the same kinds of things done by actual fascist countries that the regressive left gives a pass. Let's just call it the AmerSux Program.

[Matt_in_STL]

10. Perhaps because we hold ourselves to a higher standard than those countries?

Or perhaps because we have a greater ability to do something about this here at home than we do in Russia or Syria? Maybe it's because we need to take care of our messes at home before we slam other countries for doing the same thing?

The fact that you see criticism of bombing a hospital as "America Sux" rather than an opportunity to take responsibility for our actions and prove we are the better country speaks volumes to the type of person you are and the type of country we have become. It's okay to bomb a hospital because...USA! USA! USA!!!

[uhnope]

13. Your self-indulgent screed pontificates enough to make the Pope blush.

This part

speaks volumes to the type of person you are and the type of country we have become.

Oh, how pious you are when you overreach.

But I hope you got yr jollies

[Matt_in_STL]

16. Which years did you serve in the military?

I have to assume you did, so it makes me wonder during which time frame that might have been.

[7962]

18. Maybe because there are plenty of posters paid to always slam the US?

Thats already been proven. The russians make a classic example of it.
Sure the US has made mistakes, its going to happen. The punishments mentioned in the article are seen as not even a slap on the wrist, but to the service members many of those punishments are career ending. its just the reporter is too ignorant to understand that

[Matt_in_STL]

19. Asking our military to stop bombing hospitals and to not indiscriminately kill civilians?

That isn't "slamming" the US, that is being human. If another country bombed a hospital here, we would move in and annihilate them. Fortunately for us, nobody has the power to do that to us, but I can't fault anyone for decrying a "mistake" that killed many innocent people, especially when we should know better. It's not a slam, it's holding ourselves to a standard we would expect from others and hoping that our government realizes we take these things seriously rather than just brushing it off because, as noted above, Russia and Syria do it too.

[7962]

21. I'm speaking generally, not about this one incident.

My issue is that many here will instantly jump on the "blame the US" wagon with little or no information, just like they'll toss out "racist" on many stories that have nothing to do with race.
And the report said that people were punished. And many of them will lose their career because of it. Its hard to understand the different levels of how things like this happen. It can be as bad as being told from the top "go bomb that hospital", which likely did NOT happen, down to aiming next door and missing, which also likely did not happen.

[cali]

26. Made mistakes. What a sick, weak, justification. Read the fucking report

[uhnope]

29. "fucking report". Okay I get the lingo now.

Why don't you fucking summarize how the fucking report fucking says that it wasn't a fucking mistake and how it wasn't a fucking accident.

we're fucking waiting

[KG]

11. I lulz'd

[uhnope]

15. that's interesting, I hate the regressive left

who are trolls.

but so what?

[cali]

22. I despise justifications of U.S. malfeasance. It's sick.

[uhnope]

23. "an accident" is not the definition of "malfeasance"

so what malfeasance are you referring to?

I tell you what is malfeasance: Your OP title which implies it is the headline of the opinion piece, which it is not. Misleading & deceiving. But it was probably an accident so I will let it go

[cali]

27. Read the fucking report

[uhnope]

67. Again, about that "fucking report"...

Could you please summarize how the fucking report says that it wasn't a fucking mistake and how it wasn't a fucking accident.

[cali]

20. Gee. This is too easy. I'm an American.

[uhnope]

24. great. I actually care about human rights & abuses in the whole world

but that's just me

[cali]

25. I obviously was not saying that I don't care about human rights abuses worldwide.

It is beneath contempt to put words in the mouths of others. Filthy and cheap.

[uhnope]

28. "beneath contempt"..."filthy and cheap." showing yr true colors, i see

Your casual dismissal of my post was a laggardly "Gee, too easy, because I'm American," and yet now you pull out the big smears? Sounds like your conscience is knocking at the door.

If you really care about an accidental bombing of a hospital and you think that the full apology and investigation were not enough, you'll of course pursue it, but because you care about human rights abuses worldwide you'll save most outrage for the fascist regimes that bomb hospitals (and refugee camps) all the time

yeah ok

[cali]

31. You put words in my mouth. One can't have a meaningful.discussion with

anyone that dishonest. Period.

[Matrosov]

38. This isn't Russia or Syria

It is our duty to worry about our own actions first. Americans also have a far better chance to influence the actions of the US military than that of Russia or Syria anyway. Has nothing to do with America Sux.

[GliderGuider]

30. We are living in ugly times. nt

[Enthusiast]

35. Looks like it might turn into the ugliest time in all of history if this trend continues.

[EX500rider]

58. Only if you didn't actually know any history I suppose..

I'd take now over the Black Plague or Mongol invasions or fall of Rome or the Holocaust or the Conquests of Tamerlane or the 30 Years War or etc etc...

[Enthusiast]

60. But I happen to know history. Any disaster at this time would be amplified many fold

because of the human population level. Raise the sea level five feet and see what happens.

[EX500rider]

61. Sorry, a slow rising of the sea level will not compare to..

...the Black Death, estimated to have killed 30–60% of Europe's total population.

[6chars]

34. So who should be jailed or executed for this crime?

I can't wait to see the reply.

[cali]

37. The guy who illegitimately called in the strike should be tried.

Read the report.

[6chars]

41. You would be ok with him being executed?

for making an erroneous judgment? On the scale of evil, this is not quite up there with ISIS mass beheadings, etc.

If everything is a war crime, nothing is.

[cali]

42. Wtfuckity, Fuck Fuck? I said nothing of the sort. And for the record I've ben

anti-dp since I was a little kid. No exceptions. Ever.

[6chars]

43. Imprisoned for life then?

You do realize conviction of war crimes come with extreme punishment, right?

War is violent and errors of judgment are going to happen. The lieutenant who made the error here didn't have anything to gain from it, and there is no evidence it was done out of malice. Maybe you want to take it farther up and try the leadership who put him in a position to make poor judgments in the first place. Do you think President Obama is a war criminal?

[cali]

44. I have no idea. He could be found not guilty. But there is clearly enough to charge.him.

[6chars]

52. that's not what the article says

it says there were violations of war law, but not war crime. i don't see the point in holding a war crimes tribunal for that person, as there was for milosovic and various african military dictators.

if you were to argue that the u.s. army should apply its own disciplinary rules and hold a hearing if he violated them, sure. even though what this guy did seems like poor judgment but not like abu ghraib hijinx. but this eagerness to charge war crimes is misplaced.

[cali]

53. Others have been charged for breaking those rules of engagement.

[6chars]

57. list of convicted war criminals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_convicted_war_criminals

This is nothing like what you are saying. I think maybe you are confused.

[polly7]

45. Yes. They knew what they were bombing.

"OCTOBER 3, 2015 — Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) condemns in the strongest possible terms the horrific bombing of its hospital in Kunduz, which was full of staff and patients. MSF wishes to clarify that all parties to the conflict, including in Kabul and Washington, were clearly informed of the precise location (GPS Coordinates) of the MSF facilities in Kunduz, including the hospital, guesthouse, office and an outreach stabilization unit in Chardara northwest of Kunduz.

As it does in all conflict contexts, MSF communicated the precise locations of its facilities to all parties on multiple occasions over the past months, including most recently on September 29.

The bombing in Kunduz continued for more than 30 minutes after American and Afghan military officials in Kabul and Washington were first informed by MSF that its hospital was struck."

BBM

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/article/afghanistan-msf-staff-killed-hospital-partially-destroyed-kunduz



Kunduz Killers Go Free

by Media Lens / March 31st, 2016

On the night of October 3, 2015, a United States Air Force AC-130 gunship repeatedly attacked a Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan. Forty-two people were killed and dozens wounded. The US military plane had conducted five strafing runs over the course of more than an hour despite MSF pleas to Afghan, US and Nato officials to call off the attack.

MSF154301The remains of a bed frame in a room on eastern wing of the main Outpatient Department building.

As we reported at the time, MSF were unequivocal in their condemnation of the American attack. The hospital was ‘intentionally targeted’ in ‘a premeditated massacre’; it was a ‘war crime’. The medical charity rejected US assurances of three inquiries by the US, Nato and the Afghan government. MSF demanded instead an independent international investigation. It was to no avail. The US ignored public outrage and went ahead with its standard whitewashing procedures when it commits war crimes that get exposed. The outcome was announced on March 18. BBC News reported:

The US military has disciplined more than a dozen service members after an air strike on a Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) hospital in Afghanistan killed 42 people last year.

‘The Pentagon has acknowledged that the clinic was targeted by mistake, but no personnel will face criminal charges.

Note that the BBC wording – ‘the Pentagon has acknowledged that the clinic was targeted by mistake‘ – is deceptive bias. The BBC made no mention that MSF had presented strong evidence that the clinic was ‘deliberately targeted’, that the attack was a ‘war crime’, and that there was an urgent need for an independent inquiry.

The BBC continued:

Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2016/03/kunduz-killers-go-free/

http://medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2016/815-kunduz-killers-go-free.html


Tierra_y_Libertad (49,502 posts)

U.S. Plane Shot Victims Fleeing Doctors Without Borders Hospital/NBC

War criminals should be prosecuted.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-plane-shot-victims-fleeing-doctors-without-borders-hospital-n457871

KABUL, Afghanistan — A U.S. warplane shot people trying to flee a burning hospital destroyed in airstrikes last month, according to the charity that ran the facility.

"Thirty of our patients and medical staff died ," Doctors Without Borders General Director Christopher Stokes said during a speech in Kabul unveiling a report on the incident. "Some of them lost their limbs and were decapitated in the explosions. Others were shot by the circling gunship while fleeing the burning building."

The hospital in Kunduz was bombed on Oct. 3 as Afghan government forces fought to regain control of the city from Taliban insurgents.

After the U.S. gave shifting explanations for the incident — which Doctors Without Borders has called a war crime — President Barack Obama apologized to the charity. The U.S. and Afghan governments have launched three separate investigations but the charity, which is also known as Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF), is calling for an international inquiry.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027318389

[EX500rider]

59. "Yes. They knew what they were bombing"

As it does in all conflict contexts, MSF communicated the precise locations of its facilities to all parties.

That does not mean the gunship knew about it.

[Blue_Tires]

55. And what about the repeated attacks from RU aircraft on MSF facilities?

Shouldn't there be a lot more heat on Moscow to admit responsibility at the bare minimum?

Or am I not allowed to bring that up on this forum?

[uhnope]

65. exactly how much RT do you take in on a daily basis?

[Hydra]

64. Helllooo! Monster Putin in charge there

Some of us wanted to do something about that back in the day, but apparently our leaders prefer to fight countries and bomb things that don't bite back- like hospitals.

[uhnope]

68. to regressives, that does not compute

To regressives, because Russia is at odds with the US, Russia must be good.

[Blue_Tires]

69. The sad part is not only have there been multiple incidents

There is growing strength to the assertion that soft civilian targets are getting intentionally attacked:

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2015/10/05/russians-blamed-for-attack-on-syrian-hospital.html

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/23/middleeast/syria-hospital-attack-russia/index.html

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2/15/1485412/-Russia-Bombs-MSF-Hospital-in-Syria-Another-Hit-by-Rockets