What are we supposed to do about illegal immigration?

[runaway hero]

Really, what are we supposed to do about it? Democrats have the latino base but also some of the working class. How do we come up with a solution for everyone?

[Scootaloo]

1. Strong regulations against worker exploitation.

Immigrants do not "steal jobs," employers do. They strip jobs from Americans and "give" them to undocumented migrants, because they are able to exploit, under-pay, and otherwise mistreat undocumented people - and if found out, it's those workers who pay hte price, not the employer.

The key then, is to remove these "incentives" to exploit undocumented migrants. Both because, well, it's abuse of people, and becuase doing so harms American employment as well. If you're working in our nation, you deserve to be treated as fairly as anyone else working in this nation, and I don't care what your papers are. Do the work, get the pay, a fair pay.

[trof]

14. +1000

[Jeffersons Ghost]

73. Just read this NSA code, FBI punks!

[MH1]

20. ^^^ THIS. nt

[katsy]

26. ^^^^ THIS nt

[Jack Bone]

54. Change "Fair Pay" to "Union Pay"...and I agree 100%

n/t

[scscholar]

2. Why do we need to do anything?

It's the Republicans that argue "something must be done."

[runaway hero]

3. Because it's a crime

And it's hurting low wage, low skill workers according the electorate. Or do you have a plan to replace those jobs for them?

[JimDandy]

29. Yes, REAL crimes, like having my SS# stolen and used by an illegal immigrant

at a big corporate owned pig processing plant in Utah. Had that mess up my financial reports for years.

[stone space]

4. Legalize it.

Now, want to know what we should do about illegal pot?

[runaway hero]

6. a fine then?

[stone space]

9. How does $1 per joint sound?

a fine then?

[runaway hero]

13. I like it!

Deal!

[1939]

24. Legalize pot

Make it a government monopoly, figure out how much money we need to run the government, and set the price accordingly.

The IRS can police illegal (non-government) pot sales as tax evasion using the rules of evidence for IRS tax courts (the burden of proof is on you to prove you don't owe the tax).

[1939]

85. The government obviously

Pot is too important to be left in the hands of evil profiteers.

[treestar]

5. modernize the laws

so as to allow for the natural migrations that take place.

[pampango]

7. Net 'illegal immigration' has dropped to close to zero though it is still a great scapegoat for the

right.

Obama has been cracking down big time on 'illegal employers' (one reason for the decline in 'illegal immigration'). "Illegal" immigrants are attractive to unscrupulous employers because they are exploitable. Take that 'exploitability' away (with a path to citizenship so that they are covered by the same labor laws as American citizens and legal immigrants) and they are not so attractive to employers.

For those who are here and not going anywhere, immigration reform with a path to citizenship is the only logical way to remove the 'exploitability' factor.

[treestar]

92. Yep. My theory is legalize anyone who has a job offer

that levels the field. No one can be exploited because they are illegally here. The idea might give people fits, but thinking it through, it makes sense. This way foreign persons would not get jobs that a citizen would not have to do on the exploitative terms, making the foreign citizen not having an advantage.

[Major Nikon]

8. Your "concern" is noted

[runaway hero]

11. Do you have a solution or no?

[Major Nikon]

12. I'd vote for a pizza

[stone space]

15. You have yet to demonstrate a problem.

Do you have a solution or no?

[runaway hero]

17. How do we balance the latinos with the working class votes, is my question or problem.

[stone space]

19. My wife is both latina and working class. I don't understand the "balancing" thingie.

How do we balance the latinos with the working class votes, is my question or problem.

Are you under the impression that she is somehow against herself?

That she has to be somehow balanced with herself?

You haven't explained the so-called "problem".

You just mention overlapping groups of people, without any indication of any "problem" at all.

I understand that Trump sees a problem. But so what? Trump is neither latino nor working class.

Is the "problem" of latinos and working class folks anything like the "problem" of blacks and gays?

I've heard that called a "problem" as well.

[runaway hero]

23. Okay let's try it this way

1) Do you think illegal immigration is a problem?
2) If so, how do we solve it.

[stone space]

25. (1) Yes. (2) Legalize it.

Okay let's try it this way

1) Do you think illegal immigration is a problem?
2) If so, how do we solve it.

It's like pot smoking.

Illegal pot smoking is a problem, because it lands people in jail for nothing.

The solution is rather obvious.

[runaway hero]

35. fair enough

[MH1]

21. The first reply to your OP gave the answer.

I think you did not respond to that one.

[runaway hero]

22. Thanks.

I did look now. I am trying to get more answer as well.

[pangaia]

51. Latinos don't work?

[runaway hero]

64. the different voting blocks

[Redwoods Red]

10. Quit babbling about walls and pass comprehensive immigration reform legislation.

[One_Life_To_Give]

16. Legalize, Border clearing stations, etc.

The best of the lowest classes should be welcome. The Gang Bangers, Drug Mules and other Major Criminals should be sent back to wherever they crawled in from. Nobody should be paying Narcotics Gangs their life savings to be transported across the border.

[philosslayer]

18. Legalization and Citizenship

If you've been here 6 months or more, you are deemed legally here, and granted citizenship. Problem solved. Millions of new voters and taxpayers added to the American fold. Democracy thrives.

[RichGirl]

27. One of the few things that Reagan did right was...

...to give amnesty to a million illegals. Amnesty and a path to citizenship. That's what this country is all about. You know...give me your tired and huddled masses yearning to be free...etc.

[HuckleB]

28. You seem to have ideas. What are they?

[Agnosticsherbet]

30. Close bussinesses using undocumented workers and confiscate all property

as if those businesses were selling drugs.

We have to take businesses whose business model requires cheap wages and put them out of business.

Bring wages up to a level where they are living wages.

This, of course, will have repercussions. A lot of the prices on things we buy, whether they are vegetables, hamburgers, houses, and a million other things are kept unnaturally low because of low wages.

[stone space]

31. Disagree. Merely refusing to discriminate does not deserve draconian measures.

Close bussinesses using undocumented workers and confiscate all property as if those businesses were selling drugs.

Businesses who exploit their workers are another matter.

But merely hiring somebody who is undocumented is not the same thing.

Everybody needs to eat, and everybody wants a job.

If a state makes hiring transsexuals illegal, should business who simply refuse to discriminate against transexuals be treated the same as businesses who hire transsexuals for purposes of exploitation?

It seems to me that the latter would be a much more grievous offense, and one that should be punished much more severely.

[Agnosticsherbet]

32. You are wrong. Businesses base their entire business model on the use of cheap, undocumented labor.

Construction, restaurants, Hotels, agriculture, and a million more. As long as wages are kept so low just so they can use undocumented workers.

Undocumented workers come here for a better life. They are exploited by businesses whether they are small mom and pops or massive corporations.

Want to deal with undocumented workers/illegal aliens, you have to stop the people who make billions off of their labor.

[stone space]

34. You are slandering people who you don't even know based on stereotypes.

Why?

It's easy to demonize people who you don't even know.

[Agnosticsherbet]

38. I am slandering no one. Businesses hire undocumented workers so they can make more money,

That is a known fact.

What I am saying is businesses that are caught utilizing undocumented workers should be the ones that suffer. Their owners should go to jail and their businesses should be confiscated.

If you've bought vegetables at the market, bread, chicken, a hamburger from a fast food restaurant, gone to the toilet in a wall mart, stayed in a hotel, own a house, rented an apartment then you have dealt with people who use undocumented workers to keep their costs low.

I am pretty sick of the right wing accusations that illegal aliens are coming over the border to steal from us. They would not come if there were not thousands and thousands of businesses that hire them.

[stone space]

41. You are slandering the gay couple who hired my wife, and who hosted our wedding reception.

I am slandering no one.

What do you know about them?

When we got married, and held our own wedding reception in their home, they were still not allowed by law to marry here in Iowa, despite their having been together for a quarter of a century.

It took another decade for them to be allowed to marry here.

It was every bit as illegal for them to get married as it was for them to hire my wife.

Please stop slandering people who you don't even know, until you actually get the facts.

[Agnosticsherbet]

43. I am slandering no one.

The problem the OP talks about is not the fault of the workers or your wife.

We are a nation that benefits from the use of undocumented workers. The only solution is to stop the employers.

[stone space]

45. You are slandering our friends. Simply because they didn't discriminate against my wife.

How did they become your enemy?

Just because they gave my wife a job?

Seriously?

When did discrimination become a good thing in your eyes?

[Agnosticsherbet]

47. You are wrong. The issue is not discrimination.

The issue is using cheap labor rather than hiring a worker for full wages.

And that is all I care to say on this issue.

[stone space]

48. You haven't been talking about cheap labor.

You are wrong. The issue is not discrimination.

The issue is using cheap labor rather than hiring a worker for full wages.

You've been talking about the gay couple who hired my wife.

What does that have to do with cheap labor?

You're moving the goat posts, now.

[Agnosticsherbet]

52. I've been talking about cheap labor.

You used a gay couple to try and refute the massive use of cheap labor to increase profits as if companies like Wallmart, McDonalds, Construction corporations, hotel chains are just being good citizens who do not discriminate. I don't doubt they are great people, kind, generous, and caring of everyone they know.

Until we deal with the employers who utilize cheap labor we will never deal with the problem of undocumented labor.

The problem is not undocumented workers, it is employers.

[stone space]

53. Do you want to close their business and confiscate their property or not?

Because if you do, it sure seems like you are talking about them.

That's how we got into this conversation in the first place.

Your statement that you wanted to close their business and confiscate their property for hiring my wife.

Do you or don't you?

This isn't a game.

Real people will be harmed by your proposal.

[Agnosticsherbet]

55. I want businesses to stop using cheap labor to increase their profits.

I would be pleased if Wallmart stores were confiscated because they hired undocumented workers at a fraction of what it would cost to pay regular workers. They were actually caught doing that.

Hotel chains contract business that utilize undocumented workers to keep labor costs low.

Construction companies use cheap labor so they can build houses and sell them cheaper.

Restaurants use cheap, undocumented workers to cut costs.

Farms use undocumented workers so they can keep prices down.

And some business, as that run by your friends, use cheap labor.

Would I want to see your friends in jail, no. But utilizing cheap labor to cut costs is the source of the problem with undocumented workers/illegal aliens. Until we deal with the employers, there is no interest in solving the problem.

[stone space]

56. Evidence?

And some business, as that run by your friends, use cheap labor.

Did you just make this up?

And do you want to close their business and confiscate their property or not?

You didn't say.

You claim that it's not about them, but until you answer this question, how am I to know that?

[Agnosticsherbet]

58. Major American companies benefit from undocumented workers

http://www.marketplace.org/2013/04/30/wealth-poverty/special-report-raiteros/major-american-companies-benefit-undocumented-workers

Prosecute US Companies Who Hire Illegal Immigrant Workers to the Fullest Degree

Businesses Busted For Hiring Illegal Workers

Employers Who Unlawfully Hire Illegal Immigrants Probably Won't Get In Trouble, Report Finds

IMMIGRATION CHRONICLES Big names on list of companies ICE fined

[stone space]

62. I'm not going to click on 5 frickin' just links to find the one...

...that applies to our friends whose business you want shut down and whose property you want confiscated.

Please narrow it down to the one relevant to our discussion here.

[Agnosticsherbet]

63. I see that you do not want to gather information about the problem.

Which makes me think you are not interested in a solution.
Bye.

[stone space]

65. Do you want to shut down their business and confiscate their property or not? (nt)

[840high]

74. Sure - why educate yourself? Cary on.

[stone space]

78. About what? You'll have to send me to a reeducation camp if you want me to agree that...

...our friends deserve to have their business shut down and their property confiscated.

Sure - why educate yourself? Cary on.

That's what this is all about, if you have been reading the thread.

And I disagree.

No stupid links are going to change that.

[treestar]

93. too disruptive

and impossible to enforce. Just make it legal to work here and the people who come from another country have the same rights - minimum wage, etc. Then citizens would have the advantage because they already live here, speak English.

[Agnosticsherbet]

95. I don't consider it disruptive to insist that businesses who profit by exploiting cheap labor

face the consequences of their choices.

I am willing to pay higher prices for most of the things I consume.

I would not oppose something like the European Union, where borders are open. Considering the harsh political climate in the US, it would be easier and quicker to change the way we deal with Undocumented Labor by treating its exploitation as a crime.

[treestar]

96. too much to enforce

the reason there are so many people still here illegally and working illegally. It's already against the law. The law is just not enforced because it is too much to do. People apparently are not willing to pay for immigration agents at the rate we would need them to deport anyone who overstays or comes without legal permission. In fact it would require an army and we would resemble a police state constantly looking for people here illegally and harassing people legally here because someone thinks they might not be.

Deport one and another one is just arriving, or more. And punishing the employers requires proving in court they had knowledge and nothing is slower than the courts. It just backs up the caseload.

Make it all legal and there's nothing to enforce. Then all are on an equal legal playing field. The Americans would have the advantage there. They think being legal gives them an advantage when it clearly does not as illegally present people "can" work for less with no minimum wage, hour limits, etc. Making them more attractive to unscrupulous employers.

[Agnosticsherbet]

99. Yes, people would rather get lower prices on food, houses, hotels.

It is easier to continue to exploit cheap labor, so our lifestyles remain free of disruption.
No Congress is going to open our borders.
I doubt a majority of citizens would accept it.
Legal, documented labor on visas who work for substantially lower wages than American Citizens are a legal way of keeping wages low (H2-A and H2-B visas for instance).
Throwing open the borders and allowing anyone to work, just makes a much bigger pool of low-wage workers. With a larger pool of workers to compete for jobs, the problem will grow exponentially. Bussiness may have to pay a little more, but with a larger pool of applicants, they continue to exploit low wages for profit. And that exploitation would have been made legal.

The problem is not the cost of enforcing laws. The problem is that we, as a nation, enjoy the perks of exploiting cheap labor rather than paying the real costs of the things we want.

[treestar]

100. that's because they are dumb

they think immigration laws can give them an advantage in the job market. They clearly don't, and just create an enforcement burden that can't be met.

It's the 21st century and there is a global economy. Open up here and other countries open up. Americans never even think of opportunities in other countries opening up for them.

They rely on the failed closed border strategy that is very 20th century.

[Agnosticsherbet]

103. Yes, "People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." Men in Black

We are also one of the worst countries when it comes to a population that is multilingual. Knowing how to speak another language is a skill that opens up job opportunities in different parts of the planet and encourages understanding on a level most Americans do not even know exist.

Nudging the country in the right direction is possible. It takes patience and time.

There is not a forklift big enough to pick the country up and move us directly to where we should have been fifty years ago. I think that is called cultural inertia.

[Yupster]

42. I thought we were for giving illegal immigrants working papers?

Are we supposed to be for the illegal immigrants working, but against the employers for hiring them?

[Agnosticsherbet]

44. An immigrant with working papers is a "Documented Worker."

[Yupster]

46. Don't we want illegal immigrants to be

documented workers? If they're going to be here, they will need jobs.

If they need jobs they're going to need employers.

How can we push for them to get jobs and then punish their employers at the same time?

[Agnosticsherbet]

49. What we want is to require all businesses to pay full wages rather than pad their profits

by hiring undocumented workers.

Say a large farm needs workers. Instead of rounding up undocumented workers living in camps to work for a fraction of minimum wage, they hire workers for full wages. If they can not find citizens, they could apply for farm workers from Mexico who would be documented and paid decent, full wages.

A major hotel chain would hire documented workers to clean their hotels at full wages instead of using undocumented workers for a fraction of the cost.

Of course, both of those would have repercussions. Food would cost more and hotels would have to charge more to maintain their profits. Americans who benefit from lower priced foods and cheaper hotels would have to pay more.

[stone space]

57. You seem more interested in closing businesses and confiscating property than protecting workers.

Just sayin'...

[Agnosticsherbet]

59. Unless we stop the employers who abuse workers, we are not protecting workers.

Just sayin'...

[stone space]

60. You want to close business and confiscate property from...

...employers who refuse to discriminate, simply because they refuse to discriminate.

There's nothing remotely progressive about that.

It doesn't protect workers at all.

[Agnosticsherbet]

61. Major American companies benefit from undocumented workers

http://www.marketplace.org/2013/04/30/wealth-poverty/special-report-raiteros/major-american-companies-benefit-undocumented-workers

Prosecute US Companies Who Hire Illegal Immigrant Workers to the Fullest Degree

Businesses Busted For Hiring Illegal Workers

Employers Who Unlawfully Hire Illegal Immigrants Probably Won't Get In Trouble, Report Finds

IMMIGRATION CHRONICLES Big names on list of companies ICE fined

[phylny]

91. I agree with you.

If a business hires undocumented workers, who are often taken advantage of by substandard wages, no benefits, no Social Security or Medicare when they are older, then yes, they should be shuttered.

Case in point: A restaurant in Roanoke hires undocumented workers. Not only do the owners have them housed where the workers have to pay back rent money, but the employer takes a cut of their tip money. My friends know one of the workers and while they would love to report the restaurant owner, if they did their friend the worker would either be deported or be living with no means of support and no way to send money home to his family in India.

These practices should be illegal with severe penalties for anyone who breaks the law. Owners, not workers.

[Agnosticsherbet]

94. There is a migrant camp not far from the trail where I take my morning walk.

They have no electricity, no running water, no toilets, no real shelter other than tents and cardboard boxes.
Once or twice a year they are raided and everything is carried off.
It has been there for at least a decade. I know of another camp that has existed according to new stories for more than fifty years.

We have a system where businesses are allowed to exploit this type of labor. It is not the fault of the people who live in these camps. The blame must be laid at the feet of the people who profit from cheap labor.

[mwrguy]

33. Get rid of the concept of 'illegal immigration'

No one is illegal. Let everyone come here as they please.

[runaway hero]

36. we have borders

most americans won't agree with that.

[stone space]

39. Iowa has borders as well.

we have borders

most americans won't agree with that.

Somehow, we manage to live with folks crossing them.

Do you expect us to close Interstates 80 and 35 at the border?

[runaway hero]

50. an international border crossing

and a state border is not the same thing.

[treestar]

102. It could be

In fact, it may as well be, in this century.

[treestar]

101. they ought to

funny thing is the alleged glory days of 19th century capitalism - then the borders were essentially open. Even if there were laws, they were quite unenforceable in those days.

People go where there is a good economy. Artificial attempts to control the labor market just don't work.

[Agnosticsherbet]

40. I prefer to use undocumented worker.

More accurate.

[stone space]

67. A much more accurate description of what you are doing here.

I prefer to use undocumented worker.

I don't like seeing my wife being used to demonize her friends, though.

Maybe if you were to start treating undocumented folks as real live human beings, instead of some kind of weapon to be used against those who you hate.

[Agnosticsherbet]

68. Major American companies benefit from undocumented workers

http://www.marketplace.org/2013/04/30/wealth-poverty/special-report-raiteros/major-american-companies-benefit-undocumented-workers

Prosecute US Companies Who Hire Illegal Immigrant Workers to the Fullest Degree

Businesses Busted For Hiring Illegal Workers

Employers Who Unlawfully Hire Illegal Immigrants Probably Won't Get In Trouble, Report Finds

IMMIGRATION CHRONICLES Big names on list of companies ICE fined

Read up on the issue.

[stone space]

69. You said that our friends should have their business closed and their property confiscated.

Nothing that you can link to has any relevance to that.

I've given you more than enough opportunity to walk that back, but you refuse to take the opportunities granted to you.

Enough with your hateful bullshit.

You're no different from Trump.

[Agnosticsherbet]

70. Clearly you did no read the articles and do not care about the issue.

Bye

[stone space]

72. You are peddling nothing but hate.

You hate our friends simply because they refused to discriminate against my wife.

Those articles have nothing to do with your hatred against our friends for hiring my wife.

You demonize them simply for hiring my wife.

You want to shut down their business and confiscate all their property simply because they hired my wife.

That's a level of hatred that I can't even comprehend, to be honest.

You are no friend of immigrants.

[840high]

76. You're making this all about

you.

[stone space]

79. Not about me at all. I'm not the one who would have...

...my business confiscated and all my property confiscated.

You're making this all about you.

That would be the gay couple who refused to discriminate against my wife.

This is ideology run amok.

[a la izquierda]

84. Wow, let it go.

You sound psychotic.

[840high]

75. I'm sure you will feed them

give them housing and jobs.

[stone space]

80. What's your next complaint? Free college?

I'm sure you will feed them give them housing and jobs.

Hey, that guy likes free college!

Odd choice of ave for somebody who complains about housing and jobs.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

87. Are you willing to abolish social security?

Because it's not compatible with the completely open borders you propose.

If you provide a first-world-standard social safety net and allow unlimited immigration from the third world, how many people do you think will take it up?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. Make them citizens and let them join unions.

[jmowreader]

71. My solution will take some doing, but it's more feasible than any of yours

First, negotiate with Canada and Mexico to create a fair minimum wage (that is at least $10 per hour, and preferably $12) across North America. Severely punish employers who pay less.

Next, work to reduce or eliminate unemployment across North America so people in Mexico don't feel they HAVE to come to the US for work.

Then help the Mexican police to weed out corruption in their ranks, and to shut down the drug gangs plaguing their country.

Finally, once it's safe to do so, create an American Schengen Area - which means free passage between the US, Canada and Mexico.

People are NOT leaving Mexico because the Double Quarter Pounder With Cheese is yummier than the Cuarto de libra doble con queso. (No shit. That's what it's called down there.) They're coming to the US to escape the drug violence and to find work that pays more than three bucks a day. If people who live in Mexico can find work that pays enough to live on, and they're not in danger of getting whacked by gangs, they'll be very likely to stay in Mexico where their families, their friends and the things they like are.

[840high]

77. Good post.

[pampango]

88. I like your idea. As you know any such arrangement with Canada and Mexico would scare the right wing

'New World Order' conspiracy theorists who fixate on a future North American Union.

... its true aim was to expand NAFTA into a North American Union analogous to the European Union (EU), with open borders and a common currency among other features, was being made by the fall of 2006, when conservative commentators Phyllis Schlafly, Jerome Corsi and Howard Phillips started a website dedicated to quashing what they perceived as the coming North American "Socialist mega-state".

John Birch Society

The society opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, claiming it violated the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and overstepped individual states' rights to enact laws regarding civil rights. The society opposes "one world government", and it has an immigration reduction view on immigration reform. It opposes the United Nations, the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), the Central America Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA), the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA), and other free trade agreements. They argue the U.S. Constitution has been devalued in favor of political and economic globalization, and that this alleged trend is not accidental. It cited the existence of the former Security and Prosperity Partnership as evidence of a push towards a North American Union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society#Values

I like your idea. Alas, 'national sovereignty is paramount' folks will be aghast at the idea of negotiating such an agreement with Canada and Mexico.

[gwheezie]

81. Let anyone who wants to come here come

But have thorough screening for criminal activity. Get undocumented workers out of the shadows and give them some kind of worker as card so that businesses who hire them can be above board and also decrease the exploitation of undocumented workers competing for jobs Let them pay taxes, go to school, buy healthcare etc everything except voter registration. I really don't understand the concept that people have to go back in order to apply for citizenship. Why can't they stay here and acclimate to our country?

[ronnie624]

82. What we should do about it,

is ask ourselves why it matters so much.

Tribalism is a big problem for modern humans.

[qdouble]

83. It's pretty silly to me, to believe the "common good" stops at artificial borders.

We should seek to allow as many people to come here as long as they seek to be beneficial to our society. Handling illegal immigration should more so be a task of making sure that everyone who comes here is documented, doesn't participate in criminal activity and is seeking to contribute. As far as jobs, that's more a less a situation of business exploiting immigrants. Should we penalize the exploited for being exploited?

[Matrosov]

89. Punish the employers

Hiring undocumented migrants is worker exploitation. The one and only reason an employer would want to hire undocumented migrants is so that they don't have to pay them the same wages and provide them with the same benefits as legal resident aliens and citizens.

[bemildred]

90. I think we should take them in and take care of them.

We are the richest nation on the planet. I imagine they would be pretty grateful overall. And it would make us look really, really good for a change.

[Recursion]

97. Isn't it essentially zero at this point? (nt)

[apnu]

98. Crack down on worker explotiation and offer a path to citizenship for those here now.

This isn't hard at all. People will counter that will raise prices on picked vegtables and fruits, but that is greedy, hallow, nonsense.

[jberryhill]

104. Make them go to the wrong bathroom

That will scare them from entering the country in the first place.