Venezuela has fallen/been pushed over the cliff.

[cali]

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro announced a sweeping crackdown Saturday under a new emergency decree, ordering the seizure of paralyzed factories, the arrest of their owners and military exercises to counter alleged foreign threats. The embattled leftist is struggling to contain a raging economic crisis that has led to food shortages, soaring prices, riots, looting and vigilante justice, pushing Venezuela to the brink of collapse. He accused the United States on Friday of destabilizing the country at the behest of the "fascist Venezuelan right," prompting him to declare a state of emergency.

<snip>
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/maduro-orders-seizure-of-closed-venezuela-factories-jailing-of-owners/ar-BBt3bLI?ocid=iehp

[AngryAmish]

1. That is a mistranslation.

[msanthrope]

7. Thread win on the first reply. Nt

[leveymg]

53. Exactly. Venezuela is spelled C h i l e.

[malaise]

2. Pushed over the cliff is correct

Reminds me of the sabotage in Jamaica in the late 70s/early 80s.

[msanthrope]

8. If you have proof that Maduro is a CIA plant, then, yes. Nt

[Octafish]

10. As if that's the question.

As if he would admit it, either way.

[msanthrope]

11. Funniest post, evah! Nt

[FLPanhandle]

3. No one pushed Venezuela off the cliff, they jumped.

Anyone with even a basic understanding of Economics 101 knows that Venezuela implemented the most stupid and self destructive economic decisions of any country in SA.

As their self inflicted wounds began to mount, Maduro kept making things worse by implementing even dumber restrictions.

Factories have gone out of business because they can't import parts throwing millions out of work, asinine fixed currency conversion (at multiple tiers benefiting those in power), destroyed trade, international companies were seized and then abandoned when the government found their own rules made them untenable, etc., etc. etc.

If the Obama administration wanted Venezuela off a cliff, then the best strategy was sit back with cold drink and watch Maduro do their work for them.

[ileus]

4. Oh yes...the old America's fault excuse.

[PufPuf23]

5. Anyone recall this?

Also recall that there was a failed USA backed coup in 2002 followed by a USA backed oil strike in 2003? Rumsfeld called Venezuela, Bolivia, and Ecuador the western hemisphere's axis of evil? USA NGOs NED and USAID supported un-democratic challenges to the elected Venezuelan government until they were asked to leave. Same old story.

I am not a Chavez lover so don't call me that but the USA has not been what one could call friendly and supportive regards Venezuela.

Poor Venezuelan people.

By Brett Wilkins, Digital Journal

09 February 13

Baltimore - For the eighth straight year, Venezuela's state oil company is donating free heating oil to hundreds of thousands of needy Americans.

The CITGO-Venezuela Heating Oil Program has helped more than 1.7 million Americans in 25 states and the District of Columbia keep warm since it was launched back in 2005. The program is a partnership between the Venezuelan state oil company Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A. (PDVSA), its subsidiary CITGO and Citizens Energy Corporation, a nonprofit organization founded by former US Rep. Joseph P. Kennedy II that provides discounted and free home heating services and supplies to needy households in the United States and abroad. It has been supported from the beginning by Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez.

In 2005, a pair of devastating hurricanes, Katrina and Rita, led to dwindling oil supplies and skyrocketing fuel costs. Some of the poorest and most vulnerable Americans, including many elderly people on fixed incomes, found themselves having to choose between heating their homes or providing food, clothing or medicine for themselves and their families. Since that first winter, CITGO has provided 227 million gallons of free heating oil worth an estimated $465 million to an average of 153,000 US households each year. Some 252 Native American communities and 245 homeless shelters have also benefited from the program. This winter, more than 100,000 American families will receive Venezuelan aid. With the US government estimating that households heating primarily with oil will pay $407 (19 percent) more this year than last, the program remains an invaluable helping hand to many needy Americans.

Last year, President Barack Obama and Congress reduced Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP) funding by 25 percent, cutting off an estimated one million US households from desperately needed assistance just as winter's worst chill, accompanied by record heating oil prices, set in. Fortunately, the CITGO-Venezuela Heating Oil Program was able to assist an estimated 400,000 Americanslast year.

More at: http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/324-100/15947-venezuela-donates-free-heating-oil-to-100k-needy-us-households

[COLGATE4]

6. Yep. Chavez' gratuitous ploy to gain support in the US by sending heating oil

to the Northeast. Another $465 million he threw away trying to garner support instead of investing it to the benefit of the Venezuelan people.

[PufPuf23]

9. Venezuela under Chavez just could not benefit regardless of actions.

Care for the Venezuelan people does not appear to be reciprocal.

The $465 million was just for one year out of at least 8 years heating oil was provided to the poor in the USA.

Venezuela in good faith also provided low cost fuels to a number of other countries.

How much money has the war monger and empire contingent spent to destabilize Venezuela and other countries?

Has the now 18 years invested in Plan Colombia worked out?

Business opportunities and a pending free trade agreement that will penalize the poor and working class in favor of trans-national corporations?

Venezuela has never tried to deliberately destabilize our government and economy.

In 1938 Standard Oil of New Jersey sourced 38% of their oil from Venezuela, 38% of oil from the USA, and the remainder elsewhere, primarily Canada. Venezuela is the richest oil patch in the western hemisphere. Venezuela provided most of the fuel for the Allies in Europe in WWII, much processed at refiners on Aruba and Curacao. The biggest sin of Venezuela was to nationalize the oil sector (much like Gadaffi in Libya, Hussein in Iraq, and farther back Iran).

Neo-liberals want to do to Venezuela what has occurred in Colombia with coal. Our problem with Venezuela has more to do with access to cheap natural resources than humanitarian reasons.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Colombia_and_coal

Colombia and coal

Colombia is the world's tenth largest producer of hard coals and the fourth largest exporter of coal, based on 2009 data.[1] The U.S. Geological Survey states that Colombia is the largest coal producer in South America and has the largest reserves in the region. It also states that coal mining for export is booming in Colombia, with production having increased by 80% since 1999.[2][2]

Coal output in 2010 stood at 74.35 million tons, a 2% increase from 2009 but below the government's target of 80 million tons, reportedly due to unusually heavy rains in the last months of the year. Colombia's total coal exports for 2010 came in at 68.14 million tons. Carlos Rodado, Colombia's mining minister, has said coal output will reach 144 million tons in 2020.[3]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/awash-in-coal-u-s-imports-even-more-1407974928

August 13, 2014.

Coal imports are rising sharply even as coal mines close throughout the Central Appalachia.

A big reason: Price. It costs $26 a ton to ship coal from Central Appalachia to power plants in Florida compared with $15 a ton to get coal from a mine in Colombia according to research firm IHS Energy.

Labor costs are lower in Colombia, and it's much more cost effective to move coal by ship, which can transport well over 50,000 tons of coal, than by train usually made of over 100 railcars, each carrying only 100 tons of coal. In addition, a global coal glut has weaken prices for Colombian coal.

Coal imports surged 44% to 5.4 million metric tons during the first 6 months of 2014, compared with a year ago, according to Global Trade Information Services. Two-thirds came from Colombia, which ramped up coal production and exported 24% more coal during the first five months, compared with the same period in 2013, the data provider said.

more at link.

---------------------------------

What is not said is that there has been violence against union organizers and native people and the USA has established nine military bases in Colombia as well as military based in the Netherlands Antilles just off the coast of Venezuela.

[COLGATE4]

13. Interesting. But it says nothing about 18 years of complete and total incompetence by Chavez

and followers, running a thriving economy into the ground. They didn't need any help from the US to do it - they managed just fine by themselves. Chavez threw billion upon billions of dollars away, striving to buy political support for his dreams of a new Bolivarian group. All of these billions which should have been spent in modernizing the petroleum sector - as well as the electric sector were instead thrown into grandiose projects that had no chance of becoming reality (see the article about China's failed 300 mile 'bullet train'in the Venezuelan outback or just simply skimmed off by political insiders. PDVSA (the State Petroleum Agency) which had before been a model for all of Latin America turned into a safe haven for Chavez supporters who knew nothing about the petroleum industry but did know how to support Chavez. And when the fools' gold of $100 a barrel oil finally collapsed Chavez's unfortunately picked successor didn't have a clue as to what to do. We now see the end result of his fruitless Presidency - currency devalued to at least 1000Bs per dollar. Shortage of basic foodstuffs, medicines and pharmaceuticals. Venezuelans unable to buy international airline tickets because they must be paid for in dollars. Same for cell phone service. Businesses failing because they can't get dollars to import the basic material needed to manufacture the end products. And npw facing a plebescite for his removal from office Maduro has decided to rule by Emergency Decree, nationalizing the few major companies that hadn't already been nationalized and calling up military maneuvers to cope with the coming Yanqui invasion.

[PufPuf23]

15. Chavez was President of Venezuela for 14 years; the first several years included

the 2002 failed coup and the 2003 oil strike. The last several years of his life he was gravely ill with cancer. The entirety of his time as President there were forces that undermined his efforts and attempted to remove him from power and sabotage the economy. Whether Venezuela under Chavez and Madura needed or didn't need help to fail, the USA isolated the nation and cooperated in internal sabotage of industry and politics. The US public has been served a fine dish of black and white when the situation is more complex.

I do not support the Marxist-Leninist form of socialism nor cult of personality practiced by Chavez and his supporters. I support social democracy but not anything close to pure socialism. Some items in a egalitarian democracy are better served by the public rather than the private sector. Pure socialism is flawed as is unfettered free market capitalism (as suggested by neo-liberals).

I have no argument that present day Venezuela is a mess. Chavez made a grave mistake by spending all revenue rather than making a nest egg during the high oil markets. The fact that insiders profited at the expense of the masses seems to be part of the human condition regardless of economic, political, or religious system.

Seems like Venezuela could use some help from the USA but maybe we are incapable at present of offering help without strings and would prefer to watching a total collapse of the nation. Batter that than systematic bombing of people and infrastructure.

[COLGATE4]

16. Seeing as the US is Venezuela's greatest trading partner I don't see how

the US 'isolated the nation and cooperated in internal sabotage of industry...". Perhaps you have some actual examples of where we cooperated in internal sabotage of industry?

[PufPuf23]

19. Examples of where we cooperated in internal sabotage of industry?

Last edited Mon May 16, 2016, 12:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Oil strike of 2003 followed by the movement for western Venezuela to secede when the oil strike failed and backers were removed from position.

You don't think that Rumsfeld referring to Venezuela, Bolivia, and Ecuador as an "Axis of Evil" wasn't to isolate the countries?

What about surrounding Venezuela with military bases?

All the more compounded and isolating as you are correct in that the USA has been Venezuela's largest trading partner for about 100 years.

[COLGATE4]

21. The US bases in Colombia are and have been in support of Plan Colombia

and the Colombian government. They have no purpose regarding Venezuela. Just another canard for Maduro to hype up his (diminishing) followers.

[PufPuf23]

26. There were two bases on the Dutch Antilles established under Plan Colombia,

Curacao and Aruba.

The basing agreement (with The Netherlands who still do foreign affairs for their former colonies, there are Dutch marines stationed in the Antilles) remains in effect on Aruba and runaway and other improvements made for the FOL but there is no staff nor planes present, they were moved to an expansion in Curacao operations. The FOL was very unpopular with the residents of Aruba who questioned its purpose.

In the guise of DEA and customs, the coast of Venezuela is nearly continuously monitored.

There was also a base established under Plan Colombia at Manta, Equator where Ecuador cancelled the basing contract after this event.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x347440

As diplomatic and military fallout from the March 1 Colombian raid into Ecuador escalate regional tensions, allegations from Ecuadorean sources link the unprovoked attack to the U.S. Manta airbase and charge the American mercenary firm DynCorp with piloting the planes that killed FARC commander Raúl Reyes and 24 others.

According to investigative journalist Kintto Lucas,

A high-level Ecuadorean military officer, who preferred to remain anonymous, told IPS that "a large proportion of senior officers" in Ecuador share "the conviction that the United States was an accomplice in the attack" launched Mar. 1 by the Colombian military on a FARC...camp in Ecuador, near the Colombian border.

------------------------------------------------------------

Not widely publicized was that Dick Cheney and Air Force Two were on Aruba when the above raid from Manta occurred.

Sorry could not find a better picture.



Note: Name of jpg is Aruba_Chney_small.jpg.

On edit: picture does not post but does on Preview. ??
------------------------------------------------------------
"Since Plan Colombia was launched in 2000, a strategic alliance between the United States and Colombia has taken shape, first to combat the insurgents and later to involve neighbouring countries in that war," said the officer. "What is happening today is a consequence of that." ("Ecuador: Manta Air Base Tied to Colombian Raid on FARC Camp," Inter Press Service, March 21, 2008)

Ecuadorean Defense Minister Wellington Sandoval said an investigation into whether the Manta airbase was used in the attack should be carried out by Ecuador's armed forces. According to the leasing agreement, the Manta base can only be used for counternarcotics operations.

http://antifascist-calling.blogspot.com/2008/03/did-us-...

[COLGATE4]

31. So you're talking about 2 bases in the Dutch Antilles

which are staffed with Dutch military and a drug-interdicting base in Manta that Correa cancelled years ago.
These are the existential threat to Venezuela?

[PufPuf23]

43. The two Antilles FOLs and Manta were staffed with US military and contractors.

The Manta contracts closed the Aruba FOL is not active but still under contract and infrastructure improved.

I have said repeatedly that I did not think the USA will invade Venezuela but the bases were certainly used to monitor and stage operations regards to Venezuela. The FOLs are military lily pads that could be used for staging areas. One can find the specs online and the airstrip conditions and length are suitable for bombers and fighter jets if need by, not the aircraft used by DEA and Customs.

Bombing of FARC in Colombia and Ecuador did occur from Aruba and Manta.

The USA has never staffed FOLs and later used them to bomb or for drones. I forgot this.

Let us agree to disagree.

[COLGATE4]

44. Agreed.

[COLGATE4]

17. What "help" would you suggest the US give Maduro?

Companies are not going to sell products to Venezuela if they don't get paid. Venezuela no longer has enough dollars to pay them and nobody, not even Venezuelans want a currency that's so devalued that it's literally being used a toilet paper. Venezuela's only source of credit, China is backing away faster than a scalded cat from a hot stove. It's brotherly "trading partners" can't provide enough of anything of real value to the economy to make a difference. Add to that Maduro's constant bombast about how he's being targeted for assassination by the Gringos, how the US is getting ready to invade Venezuela, etc. and I suspect that any sane diplomat considering the situation would counsel staying way the hell away from it.

[PufPuf23]

22. Bulk food and life necessities, no strings attached.

I agree that Venezuela is in a precarious situation.

I don't think the USA needs to invade Venezuela to meet neo-liberal or neo-conservative ends.

One exception would be if there was an actual "hot" WWIII with Russia and or China.

The West led by the USA would almost immediately seize western Venezuela (Maracaibo Basin) because of the oil.

[COLGATE4]

30. Doubtful. Venezuelan oil is of such low quality that it is

extraordinarily expensive to refine. That would probably be the last source we'd look to.

[PufPuf23]

37. You are generalizing. Not all Venezuelan oil is heavy crude.

Edit to add: Don't forget that almost all the oil used by the Allies in WWII Europe came from Maracaibo and much of Germany's pre-WWII oil came from Standard Oil operations in Maracaibo and the refinery on Aruba.

The problem is that most of the historic production is from Maracaibo where more oil crude oil has been recovered than anywhere else in the western hemisphere. So much has been removed that the land is subsiding on the order of 2 to 3 inches per year in places. most of the good quality and easy to obtain oil has been removed over the last 100 years so mostly heavy crude remains. It is mixed with lighter crude for refining.

Now most of the reserves and new development are farther east in the Orinoco Belt where:

The Orinoco Belt consists of large deposits of extra heavy crude. Venezuela's heavy oil deposits of about 1,200 billion barrels (1.9×1011 m3), found primarily in the Orinoco Petroleum Belt, are estimated to approximately equal the world's reserves of lighter oil.[1] Petróleos de Venezuela S.A. has estimated that the producible reserves of the Orinoco Belt are up to 235 billion barrels (3.74×1010 m3)[2] which would make it the largest petroleum reserve in the world, slightly ahead of the similar unconventional oil source in the Athabasca oil sands, and before Saudi Arabia[3] In 2009, the US Geological Survey increased the estimated reserves to 513 billion barrels (8.16×1010 m3) of oil which is "technically recoverable (producible using currently available technology and industry practices)." No estimate of how much of the oil is economically recoverable was made. [4]

The Orinoco Belt is currently divided into four exploration and production areas. These are: Boyacá (before Machete), Junín (before Zuata), Ayacucho (before Hamaca), and Carabobo (before Cerro Negro). The current exploration area is about 11,593 square kilometres (4,476 sq mi).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orinoco_Belt

[COLGATE4]

42. Not "all" - just most of it.

" most of the good quality and easy to obtain oil has been removed over the last 100 years so mostly heavy crude remains"

[COLGATE4]

32. Do you realize the enormity of what you're suggesting? Bulk food for the population

of all of Venezuela? Who's going to pay for it. And you can be certain that we would get ZERO thanks or even recognition of such a gesture. It'd be played up for all it's worth as a 'prelude to invasion'. No, unfortunately Maduro has pushed this thing so far that there's no unwinding it now. It's going to have to bottom out before any progress can be made, and that progress is going to have to come from the Venezuelans, not us.

[PufPuf23]

39. I never said to feed all of Venezuela nor to take responsibilty for Venezuaelan woes.

A show of humane support in action and words is about all that can be done (and accepted) now.

The USA has been the country that has treated Venezuela as an economic colony not vice versa.

Your opinion was that Venezuela providing heating oil to poor Americans was foolish (which started my part of this conversation).

You fail to note that the history of Venezuela in the 20th century was shipping oil wealth elsewhere (like the USA or USA corporations for shipment to Europe - Standard Oil of New Jersey was Germany's and Hitler's main source of oil prior to WWII) with little benefit to the people of Venezuela.

You also fail to note that the policy of the USA has been to isolate and destabilize Venezuela for the past 20 years.

I don't think the USA is going to invide nor do I think that there is much that we can do to improve conditions in Venezuela at present.

[COLGATE4]

41. I did a lot of work in and with Venezuela in the late 1990's and I can assure

you that our government was not trying to 'isolate and destabilize' Venezuela then.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

12. I recall this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Chile

"Nobel laureate and economist Gary Becker states that “Chile’s annual growth in per capita real income from 1985 to 1996 averaged a remarkable 5 percent, far above the rest of Latin America."

[PufPuf23]

14. Are you serious? Pinochet was installed in a US-backed coup on 1973 and

it is well documented the "Chicago Boys" re-made the Chile economy with a neo-liberal wish list.

Note that the period you cite started 12 years after the "creative" destruction that followed the 1973 coup and continued for 5 years after Pinochet was gone in 1990.

The neo-liberalism is an economic stimulant but at a cost of the egalitarian goals we supposedly support as Democrats and Americans.

The high rate of annual growth also reflects the vacuum created by and recovery from the destruction and after effects of the coup and economic experimentation implemented once Pinochet was in place.

Here is what you are suggesting was warranted:

"Pinochet assumed power in Chile following a United States-backed coup d'état on 11 September 1973 that overthrew the elected socialist Unidad Popular government of President Salvador Allende and ended civilian rule. Several academics have stated that the support of the United States was crucial to the coup and the consolidation of power afterward.[6][7][8] Pinochet had been promoted to Commander-in-Chief of the Army by Allende on 23 August 1973, having been its General Chief of Staff since early 1972.[9] In December 1974, the ruling military junta appointed Pinochet President of Chile by joint decree, although without the support of one of the coup's instigators, Air Force General Gustavo Leigh.[10]

From the start of the new military government harsh measures were implemented.[11] During the period of Pinochet's rule, various investigations have identified the murder of 1,200 to 3,200 people with up to 80,000 people forcibly interned and as many as 30,000 tortured.[12][13][14] As of 2011, the official number of deaths and forced disappearances stands at 3,065.[15]

Under the influence of the free market-oriented neoliberal "Chicago Boys", the military government implemented economic liberalization, including currency stabilization, removed tariff protections for local industry, banned trade unions and privatized social security and hundreds of state-owned enterprises. These policies produced what has been referred to as the "Miracle of Chile," but critics state that economic inequality dramatically increased and attribute the devastating effects of the 1982 monetary crisis on the Chilean economy to these policies.[16][17] Chile was, for most of the 1990s, the best-performing economy in Latin America, though the legacy of Pinochet's reforms continues to be in dispute.[18]

Pinochet's 17-year rule was given a legal framework through a controversial 1980 plebiscite, which approved a new Constitution drafted by a government-appointed commission. In a 1988 plebiscite 56% voted against Pinochet's continuing as president, which led to democratic elections for the Presidency and Congress. After stepping down in 1990, Pinochet continued to serve as Commander-in-Chief of the Chilean Army until 10 March 1998, when he retired and became a senator-for-life in accordance with his 1980 Constitution. However, Pinochet was arrested under an international arrest warrant on a visit to London on 10 October 1998 in connection with numerous human rights violations. Following a legal battle he was released on grounds of ill-health, and returned to Chile in March 2000. In 2004, Chilean Judge Juan Guzmán Tapia ruled that Pinochet was medically fit to stand trial and placed him under house arrest.[9] By the time of his death on 10 December 2006, about 300 criminal charges were still pending against him in Chile for numerous human rights violations during his 17-year rule, and tax evasion and embezzlement during and after his rule;[19] he was accused of having corruptly amassed at least US$28 million.[20]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

-----------------------------------------------------

You should be ashamed of yourself for your post.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

48. Straw man is very strawy

You spend a large amount of time implying I approve of all policies implemented when I said no such thing. Focus on what was said, not what you think was said.

Now, if you want to debunk the one statistic I did reference, that per capita income increased - feel free to do so.

[PufPuf23]

49. I don't doubt that the rate and period of per capita income growth in Chile you cite is OK.

But the rate is a phenomena of the reduction of absolute per capita income that resulted from the neo-liberal shock treatment and recovery in an economic vacuum.

Economic growth follows a sigmoid pattern over time where the economy is in a growth phase and re-occupying slack or new resources or technology enter the system.

That percent growth is high indicates that absolute per capita is on the rising phase of the sigmoid growth function.

The high percent growth rate reflects in part the prior reduction of absolute income and in part the slack in an economy where the utilization of resources starts low.

The statistic you cite is important in the short term but has less meaning over the long term and can be misleading as is the statistic in your example.

Other economists would agree with me (and the argument above is what classical economists state to debunk the idea of a great economic miracle by the Chicago Boys in Chile.

Other than that your statistic would not have occurred without the context of the policies and actions I offered in an earlier posts.

You are over your head. You obviously do not understand the statistic you quote.

From the link you cited for the statistic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Chile

"Some economists (such as Nobel laureate Amartya Sen) have argued that the experience of Chile in this period indicates a failure of the economic liberalism posited by thinkers such as Friedman, claiming that there was little net economic growth from 1975 to 1982 (during the so-called “pure Monetarist experiment”). After the catastrophic banking crisis of 1982 the state controlled more of the economy than it had under the previous so-called "socialist" regime, and sustained economic growth only came after the later reforms that privatized the economy, while social indicators remained poor.[5] Pinochet’s dictatorship made the unpopular economic reorientation possible by repressing opposition to it. Rather than a triumph of the free market, the OECD economist Javier Santiso described this reorientation as “combining neo-liberal sutures and interventionist cures”.[6] By the time of sustained growth, the Chilean government had “cooled its neo-liberal ideological fever” and “controlled its exposure to world financial markets and maintained its efficient copper company in public hands”.[5]"

[TampaAnimusVortex]

50. Not quite...

The statistic is only relevant in the short term? The long term graph begs to differ...

From Wikipedia...

[PufPuf23]

51. Note in the chart the dip that bottomed out in Chile in 1975 and continued until 1991.

Last edited Mon May 16, 2016, 06:28 PM - Edit history (1)

The chart exhibits exactly what I described in the previous approach.

One is looking at three factors in the graph:

(1) The dip in Chile and recovery of slack resources and the rising arm of the sigmoid GDP per capita.

(2) The general systematic rise of the Latin America.

(3) Chile is wealthier in natural resources and education per capita than many other nations in Latin America.

The chart does not include the last decade.

[TampaAnimusVortex]

56. Pardon me if I disagree

No offense, but I never trust any random person on the internet when they start espousing they possess skills above and beyond that of the average person. Even if true, there are plenty of Nobel economists to highlight on both sides that might disagree with you, and unless you possess a Nobel, the same argument your trying to use applies... Those without some arcane knowledge are incapable of reasoned debate... So excuse me for ignoring the argument via authority.

1. According to the Wikipedia article, there were 3 phases of implementation in the program. Indeed, there was a dip as one could assume as previous malinvestments were washed out of the economy. Notice, we don't see any similar dips in phase 2 or 3.

2. Indeed, if the policies implemented were so wrong, why did they not result in lower than average growth compared to the other countries? (Actually, this is the most illuminating point of this entire discussion)

3. Were the same resources in play when their economy was declining? Obviously the simple existence of resources means nothing compared to the economical and political freedom to unlock them. Education however could have been improved as GDP/capita improved - but while related, is obviously a secondary consequence.

[PufPuf23]

57. Fine. eom.

[Octafish]

18. Pretzel Logic

One has to twist one's critical faculties into a moebius pretzel to make evil that was not OK for the Republicans to do into evil that is OK (and necessary!) for the Democrats to do without realizing the hypocrisy.

Thank you for a most important history lesson, PufPuf23. Great memory, yours.

[PufPuf23]

27. Thank you for noticing Octafish. Made my day. eom

[Rex]

34. I've been fighting with the idiots over this, they are crowing about that bad socialism.

Nevermind the fact that oil is worth nothing and destroyed many SA economies...I guess nobody pays attention to current events anymore. OPEC is in a lot of trouble. This is simple economics, yet many want to make it about a type of government. So that their desperation and fear finally finds some kind of validation...using pretzel logic.

I mean just look at the Swiss and how bad their economy is...er wait...

[mathematic]

52. They are a member of a price fixing oil cartel

The better they are at price fixing, the higher the value of their oil gift. A win-win!

[PufPuf23]

55. It is a stretch to say OPEC has been a successful cartel in the 21st century.

Saudi Arabia has been the price leader in lowering prices.

The more recent drop in prices has harmed Russia (non-OPEC) and Iran among other oil producing nations.

Funny that gas and other finished product prices have not dropped in step with the crude, that means producers hare enjoying greater profit margins. The trans-national oil corporations also function but less obviously as a monopoly seeking cartel.

[Nye Bevan]

20. Always enlightening to see non-capitalism in action.

Norway also has an oil-dependent economy that has been hit by falling oil prices. So how come the Norwegians can still buy toilet paper?

[bhikkhu]

23. For a government dependent on oil revenues...

when oil prices plummet, politics is are more or less irrelevant. If the former regime was in power, things would fall apart. If a RW dictator was in charge, things would fall apart. If a socialist paradise were in the works, it would fail.

Its far to easy to blame the politics when a resource-dependent government either runs out of resources (those being finite in a finite world, of course) or when the resources lose value. Same has happened in every oil-rich nation, excepting those like Norway that engaged in some very smart long-term planning.

[killbotfactory]

25. This.

The Saudis have flooded the oil market, driving down revenue for all oil producing States. Venezuela needed to diversify it's economy, but either couldn't or wouldn't.

There economic policies probably haven't helped, but they'd be in crisis regardless.

If it was a right wing government, they would just toss the majority back into extreme poverty, sell off state assets to private interests for pennies on the dollar, and call it a day.

Can't say what the current government plan is, but it doesn't look hopeful.

[1939]

33. And despite being colonized longer than any other nation on the planet

Finland has somehow managed to avoid becoming a third world hellhole.

[Adrahil]

24. Chavez and Maduro fucked up Venezuela, not the US.

After all, the US has had an outright POLICY of fucking up Cuba for 60 years. But they are still there. Perhaps not prosperous, but certainly functional. Whatever I might think of the Castros, they are effective dictators. They built a reasonably competent apparatus to support their authoritarian government. OTOH, the Chavistas are fucking idiots. They are the poster boys for what happens when outcome-based thinking trumps rational argument. They decided what the outcome should be and what the policies should be to create those outcomes, without regard for whether or not those policies could actually do so. And when those policies inevitably fail, then, of course, the fault MUST an external cause.... those nasty YANKEES. Of course, that narrative is falsely supported by actual shot-headed attempts by BushCo to actually support right-wing coups, so it's e3asy to raise that boogieman, even when there is no actual evidence for it.

[Rex]

28. OPEC might be done, the bottoming out of oil has destroyed the nation and others are soon to follow.

They didn't have any safeguards against nationalizing one of their main resources. And now that it costs nothing, their economy is worth nothing.

[kcjohn1]

29. This thread exposes the neoliberals on this board

Pretty tough situation for the people Venezuela, and all they can do is parrot right wing talking points.

The average Venezuelan is better off today than they were in 1999. Poverty declined significantly during this era, and while 1/4 of the people lived in extreme poverty in 1998, only 5% do right now.

[NobodyHere]

35. Where do you get 5% from?

[kcjohn1]

36. Many places

Here is Harvard review.

http://cepr.net/documents/publications/weisbrot_revista_fall_2008.pdf

It is from 2008, but at that time it was 7%. Part of the problem the socialist has had is that oil prices have tanked, and they have for the most part continued their social programs. Not I'm advocating for austerity, but to illustrate that poverty would have continued to fall since 2008.

[NobodyHere]

40. That's a pretty old number

http://www.wsj.com/articles/venezuelas-soaring-poverty-hurts-ruling-partys-chances-in-sundays-elections-1449104334

A new study conducted by a consortium of Venezuelan university professors called Encovi says 76% of citizens are now living in poverty when measured by income

[kcjohn1]

46. LOL WSJ as source LOOOOOL

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. Except it hasn't; extreme poverty in Venezuela has doubled since 2007

3. How should the data read poverty in Venezuela In short, with the recent results published by the National Statistics Institute for the second half of 2013?:

Poor households: 1,899,590 (27.3% of total households)

Extreme poor households: 612,051 (8.8% of total households)

People from poor households: 9,174,142 (32.1% of the population)

People from extremely poor households: 2,791,292 (9.8% of the population)

NB that the above are from official Venezuelan statistics (translated, original article in Spanish is here).

[Adrahil]

47. That's from before the Venezuelan collapse.

Before the oil price collapse made their house of cards come tumbling down. Now people can't buy basic necesseties. Factories are shutting down due to the lack of cash to purchase raw materials, and inflation is epic. It's a completely different situation now.

[COLGATE4]

38. Yep. Only 5% are forced into eating dog meat. The others get to stand in line

for interminable hours (and sometimes days) to fight over what scraps the government permits them to buy. That is, if they aren't robbed of their purchase in broad daylight in front of the police. They are MUCH better off.

[hunter]

54. Today Venezuela, tomorrow the U.S.A.

It's not like we are people of different planets.

Drought and collapsing export prices could fuck up our corrupt economy too.

[Lancero]

58. Bad decisions compounded by some very shitty luck.

Oil tanking punched holes in their economy, and their extensive use of hydroelectric power isn't doing them any favors in this drought. 70% hydroelectric generation + drought = no power.

I'm all for green energy, but banking EVERYTHING on hydro? That's just asking for a drought to come and screw you over.