General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy do we still support Saudi Arabia?
It is almost a rhetorical question, but it is a real one. I know the pat answer is Oil and security, but could there be a more crooked, immoral regime? There are literally hundreds of examples of this, but this one stood out to me today:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/raif-badawi-saudi-blogger-lashes-prison-ensaf-haidar
A heartbreaking story about a journalist/blogger in Saudi Arabia sentenced to 10 years and 1,000 lashes. The story is from the perspective of his wife who fled the country.
The inhumanity of it is simply shocking. Words fail.
And we fail as a nation by continuing to prop-up this evil, evil regime.
djean111
(14,255 posts)Simple as that.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)ever want revealed.
USA once equaled a strong nation - now playing Empire. We are going to lose at both.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)Gidney N Cloyd
(19,835 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)As always, follow the money. If we didn't seen justice after 9/11, and continue to do the Kingdom's bidding, it's for precisely the same reason. They own us.
I don't remember Bill being close to the Saudi Royals during his time as president, certainly they were never friends the way the Saudi's LOVED their co-conspirators, the Bushes. Clinton didn't start wars on their behalf the way both Bushes did. Why did you tar the Clinton's with the same brush as the Bushes? The 2 are not the same.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)between the two main political dynasties in America and the richest people in the world. What I discovered is that through nearly a half century of steady, quiet investment, Saudi oil money owns the political process, and like all large investors, hedges its bets. If you want to understand why this has happened, and how the Clintons along with the Bush family have been bought as assets of the Saudis, you should read this:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/leveymg/347
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)hence why we ignore their role in 9/11, in creating ISIS...
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)Baobab
(4,667 posts)Saudi Arabia beheads more people than Isis, including children.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Oil is part of the equation, but it isn't the primary reason we're balls deep in Saudi Arabia.
Our alliance is the product of regional politics. The chief players in the Middle East -- which, I think we can all agree is a shit storm right now -- are Saudia Arabia and Iran. We support Saudia Arabia to keep Iran from emerging as the dominant political player in the region.
We could go green and renewable tomorrow and our government would still be throwing money and guns at the Kingdom.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Or rather, don't matter. Like you say, it's not about feelings. It's not about right or wrong. It's about what is, and how what is needs to be handled in the moment, because the moment is all there is.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)They might not matter to those making the decisions, but I think there's an ethical way to conduct yourself on the world stage while still preserving your territorial integrity.
It's important to remember that our alliance with Saudi Arabia against Iran is really a predicament of our own making. Thanks to short-sighted Cold War-era foreign policy, we soured relations with Iran to the point where it will not recover for at least a generation, and now we are forced by our own hand to join forces with the chief financial and ideological backer of Sunni terrorists groups that, above all else, would just love to kill Americans.
If we had backed Mossadeg instead of the Shah, it is very likely we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)We could go green and renewable tomorrow and our government would still be throwing money and guns at the Kingdom.
Jeffersons Ghost
(15,235 posts)But wait, Saudi Arabia IS run by ultra-wealthy princes.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)If the United States had backed Mossadeg instead, I doubt we'd be having this conversation right now.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)The country cuts off the heads of people they decide are guilty of something. The wealthy people do not work, just rake in money from oil. Royal family is friends of Bushes. The country does not have human rights on their agenda.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Money and oil.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)A lot of good info on Saudi Arabia in this interview
https://shadowproof.com/2016/03/06/podcast-vijay-prashad-libya-bombing/
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It's Republican heaven.
A single rich unelected family runs everything and consider themselves to be holy men as they bang multiple wives.
Matrosov
(1,098 posts)Oil is a major factor but not the only one. It's also about keeping the Middle East in general under as much American control as possible. Israel and Saudi Arabia are two of the major players, and they oppose Iran, who we've wanted to keep in check ever since they broke free of our control in 1979. It's also why we opposed Gaddafi in Lybia and Assad in Syria, for not wanting to 'play ball' with the US, and why we oppose Russian and Iranian intervention in Syria.
I always say, Saddam Hussein's Iraq was the perfect example of our Middle East policy in action. He was our good friend when he opposed Iran, which was in our interest. He became our hated enemy when he invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia, which was not in our interest. Morality plays no role in it, though it becomes a convenient excuse when we want to get rid of 'evil dictators' like Hussein, Gaddafi, and now Assad.
ancianita
(36,055 posts)The implied culpability and mindlessness of the rest of us is a constant psychological slap over nothing we ourselves have done.
I prefer that an actual agent be named, since we were neither privy to any friendship with the Saudis nor were we even asked if we approved.
Not that anyone has listened since Nixon, anyway.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)It might have been against our will but we were there.
When I was in college one of my professors was a young German man who had first been born into Nazi Germany, then lived in the USSR in East Germany and then escaped into West Germany when he was 16 years old.
In his class we discussed group morality. The idea of being guilty because you belonged to a group that did a wrong and did nothing to stop it. He was 10 years old when he lived under the Nazis. His argument was that he did not protest the wrong so he became part of it.
I think there is some truth to that. That is what BLM members were trying to tell those of who are white when they first started protesting and telling us that we are part of the problem? What we got so angry about was that they did not allow that many of did and do protest what is going on.
So the question is not - were we involved but rather did we do anything to stop it? Many did and still are - both against the War and against the racism that results in the deaths of so many young people of color.
ancianita
(36,055 posts)Don't talk the talk of neurotics!
We are together to solve problems that "we" didn't make.
"We" don't take responsibility for the decisions that others made and we have to now suffer for. We can take responsibility for not taking age appropriate awareness of our society's dysfunctions, yes.
But this is about Saudi Arabia, not BLM. So let's not shift goalposts.
So, no. "We" won't be allowed in my political world until we get the true involvement that comes with transparency and public discussion BEFORE decisions are made, weapons sold, wars declared, trade agreement made, laws against people's differences made, etc.,
You know the spirit of responsibility I'm speaking from. So let's not pretend we "knew" or "had a say" or that we "did nothing to stop it"!!
We hate blaming the victim politics so let's not, instead, do it to each other. Okay??
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)to some extent we are responsible for those whole rule over us
ancianita
(36,055 posts)name of some other 'greater' interest. People are only responsible for what they have control over. "Some extent" is not enough to make a case against the average American. There is no greater greater responsibility than for an elected official to stay accessible, transparent, informative and honest in governing with the ones who brung you...
... And to never think you rule others.
Needing to be ruled is a common struggle that comes from the vulnerable stage of everyone's childhood. However people do or don't outgrow those mental habits, they are not to be held responsible for those who fail to live up to even greater responsibilities than the average citizen.
We cannot be mind readers, soul readers, pre-crime detectors. We take the moral stand to expect truth and to trust until words and deeds betray otherwise. So we are not supporting Saudi Arabia. Someone else who uses our money without our knowledge or consent does.
The evidence has been brought into DU for years that betrayal of voter interests is the playbook of the duopoly. The April 2014 Princeton/Northwestern study on voter influence in lawmaking proves it.
For me it's principle over money and we are not a nation of mean spirited idiots. We should never believe we need rulers, either. Rulers are for Saudi Arabians.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)but I still think it's better to try to take some responsibility for the country we live in then to disassociate from it. If we act like nothing is our fault, then we can't change anything... can we?
ancianita
(36,055 posts)the "we" meant here -- created. Of course.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)never mind a day, my head would be up on a pike warning away visitors. I would have a better chance in North Korea, than Saudi Arabia.
Rex
(65,616 posts)This will not sound good, but America doesn't always align ourselves with the nicest or most democratic societies.
StarTrombone
(188 posts)Of energy to meet our transportation needs we rely on foreign oil rather than despoil our own country side with drilling rigs
Even if you don't drive, ride the bus or travel by airline everything else that you consume or produce does
If you're posting here you are relying on oil
Magic mirrors, pinwheels, fairy dust and unicorn farts aren't going to replace petroleum tomorrow, next week, next month, next year or even in a decade
It's really that simple
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)They sell more for Europe and other countries. Part of our whole game though is to try to control oil supplies and the price.
StarTrombone
(188 posts)A barrel of Saudi oil is the same as a barrel of N Sea oil is the same as a barrel of Gulf of Mexico oil
A rising supply raises all tankers and any increase or decrease in supply affects price world wide
NoMoreRepugs
(9,425 posts)in the Middle East and we will all have Unicorns in our back yards.. wait and see
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Not to mention the fact that they're paid well for being a key strategic location in the region.
Follow the money, baby!