PARENTS are responsible for the safety of their children.

[Coventina]

Not zoos. Not museums. Not state fairs. Not Disneyland.

Schools, yes, because there is a transfer of custodial responsibility.

But when such a transfer is not in effect you are 100% responsible for the monitoring, control, and safety of your children.

If you cannot handle such a responsibility, please, don't reproduce.

I am sure the day is coming when someone's tot is going to topple a statue in an art museum on itself, and the museum will be blamed for not having it out of reach, or everything under glass, or some other such nonsense.

[bigwillq]

1. No one should ever be able to get into a zoo enclosure.

Ever. The zoo is just as responsible.

As are museums for not having exhibits blocked off, roped off, under glass, etc.

[Coventina]

5. Oh please spare me.

By that logic, nothing should ever be open to the public, ever.

Because there will ALWAYS be a way in, if one is determined enough.

[bigwillq]

6. Both public places and parents should be held equally responsible

In an event where an accident or tragedy occurs. The zoo is at fault, as is the parent.

[Coventina]

13. It is the parents' duty to ensure the child's safety. End of story.

If the mother had been doing her duty, this would not have happened.

Any number of bad things can happen when kids are left unsupervised. All of them are on the parents.
For NEGLECTING THEIR KIDS!

[bigwillq]

16. There will always be a way in

Whether a parent is doing their job or not.

Parents do have a responsibility, but safety should be priority No. 1 for all public establishments.

Both parent and zoo are at fault. End of story.

[Coventina]

18. Please explain to me how this kid would have entered the exhibit with a parent watching?

Or, are you saying the parents should just stand by and watch?

[magical thyme]

38. the outer world will never be bubble-wrapped for the convenience of parents. eos.

4 little kids is more than one adult can control in the open. She could just as easily have lost track of the 4 year old in the parking lot or at a subway or bus stop or walking down a city street.

[RoccoR5955]

50. Mother?

Why not the father as well?

[Coventina]

68. Mothers & fathers. It's my understanding that in this instance the father was not there. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

120. Why wasn't he there with his kids?

A good father would be there, watching. Always watching. Never taking his eyes off his kids. Ever. Never ever ever. Not even for a second. Not even if he had a couple of other kids there with him. Nope.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

129. Maybe he was working?

Did the news even say? What's the point?

[Dorian Gray]

130. I assume

I sarcastically used the same rhetoric people used about the mom being inattentive.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

131. Missed that

Sorry.

[rusty fender]

75. plus 1000!

Like Jeff Corwin wrote: zoos are not your babysitters!

The deflection of blame is thick here

[Coventina]

76. IKR? It seems like everyone else is supposed to take responsibility, because...."stuff happens"

Yeah, "stuff happens" so that's why you WATCH YOUR KIDS!

[Dorian Gray]

121. It was a FREAK accident

Nobody needs to be blamed. Why does somebody need to be blamed?

[Coventina]

133. The woman ignored her kid when he said he was going to play with the gorillas.

That is not a "freak accident."

[Dorian Gray]

134. Right.

Because the mother probably thought there was no chance in hell the child would be able to get to the gorillas. That's the freak accident. It's never happened before.

I'm done arguing about this. I've definitely gotten my point across, and the whole situation is tragic. A poor, innocent, majestic gorilla was put down because a child managed to get into the enclosure. There is no way this should have happened, and probably no way it will happen again. I don't blame the zoo. I don't blame the mom. I don't blame the kid. They all seemed to be doing the best they could. If it makes you feel better to assign blame because tragedy shouldn't happen without someone doing something wrong, then go for it.

In summation: I'm saddened the gorilla is dead. I'm happy the boy is alive, and I'm happy the mom did not lose her son. I don't think anybody needs to be punished for this, unless the police find gross gross gross negligence on the part of someone. I don't THINK that will happen. But, if it does, I will rethink my position.

[Coventina]

135. Thanks, I will continue to criticize inattentive parents. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

136. Ha...

it's good to have purpose in life.

[sendero]

146. It's nice...

.... that there are a FEW sane people left here.

And everyone that has not actually raised children should recuse themselves from this argument, they are not qualified.

And the "something I cared about was killed and someone must PAY" style of nonsense I read here is worthy of the most craven right wingnut.

[onecaliberal]

27. So the public is responsible when a parent leaves a child in the car?

[avebury]

49. So if a child is kidnapped while at the zoo

it is the zoo's fault? At the mall, the mall's fault? At a movie theater, the theater's fault?

[pnwmom]

32. No zoo enclosure should be easy for a determined 4 year old to penetrate.

This one obviously was.

[scscholar]

64. To be fair, I think a determined four year-old...

could break into Fort Knox if you told them there was candy inside. They're unstoppable. They never run out of energy. They're the Terminator.

(sorry, babysat 42 month-old twins last week and my nerves are still shot)

[Logical]

79. Easy??? Lol, yes it happened once in 30 years when a kid was not watched.....

For 15 minutes

[pnwmom]

80. This looks pretty easy. It's surprising it had never happened before.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7870172

[prayin4rain]

90. THREE foot barrier!?

Dang, it's amazing that this hasn't happened before.

[pnwmom]

91. And the source of the diagram was the director of the zoo. n/t

[Bettie]

36. March 1988: Madison, WI

Mentally ill man climbs into polar bear enclosure and bear was shot.

No one should be able to get into animal enclosures, for the safety of both humans and animals.

[thucythucy]

82. And it occurs to me that if a four year old can get INTO an enclosure so easily,

an adult gorilla might just be able to figure a way OUT.

[Bettie]

97. There is that as well

but, it's all about hating parents and assuming negligence.

[Ms. Toad]

99. That is the purpose of the moat and the 15' drop.

The zoo regularly patrols the moat to make sure that it has not accumulated debris that could be used as a ladder to shorten the distance out.

[thucythucy]

111. Glad they keep up on it.

There's a story, perhaps apocryphal, about a zoo that every Christmas season would give their gorillas packages to unwrap, to the delight of visitors. This stopped when they discovered one of them piling the boxes into the moat, clearly looking for a way out.

Was there a barrier on the child side of the moat? Seems to me installing such a barrier--and it could be glass or plexiglass or just plastic--would be a lot less expense, not to mention less trauma--than having to kill such a rare and beautiful animal and deal with all the consequences the zoo is having to deal with now.

My recollection of the San Diego zoo is that they have such barriers around the big cat enclosures--since cats can jump way better than apes. Might be a good idea to make this standard for all potentially dangerous exhibits.

[ret5hd]

2. Also, I will add,...

100% perfection is the only acceptable standard.
Mistakes/accidents/lapses will be neither tolerated nor forgiven.

[Coventina]

3. Somehow, myself and my siblings managed to grow up in the dangerous 1970s

And we never found ourselves in gorilla pits.

[ret5hd]

7. Why so snarky to someone agreeing with you?

[Coventina]

9. Sorry, wasn't trying to be snarky. Was agreeing.

Hazards of the internets, I guess.

My apologies for any miscommunication.

[ret5hd]

12. Good deal...

I hope we can continue to publicly shame/ridicule these (and other) parents until the ideal perfection has been attained!

[Dorian Gray]

122. heh

[Ptah]

21. Did you ever do anything that your parents didn't see?

[Frank Cannon]

25. My parents were like two Cyberdine M101 security sentries

Nothing EVER evaded their sight. I wouldn't have made it two steps towards an open hole in a gorilla enclosure without being immediately snatched away and told how I could die brutally. And I never would have tried it again.

But, then, parents these days have a lot more distractions than mine did.

[LanternWaste]

23. Hence, the very nature of seat belts simply coddles and enables bad parenting.

While yet others grew up during the 60s and 70s in cars lacking seat belts and somehow never found themselves propelled through a windshield, onto the hood and from there, the road upon impact. Hence, the very nature of seat belts simply coddles and enables bad parenting.

Or... anecdotal evidence about our youth is statistically irrelevant, but we use it in place of critical thought when we adhere to the fundamentalism of being absolute.

[Coventina]

24. What are you talking about? We had child car seats and seat belts growing up!

And, a totally bogus comparison between car accidents and letting your small child wander off unsupervised.

Fail.

[pnwmom]

33. In 1981 the CDC reported only 11% of people used seat belts,

even though they had been installed in cars since the late 60's.

http://blog.esurance.com/seat-belt-history/#.V02_tFdOJFI

And no state required car seats till 1979, when Tennessee passed a law.

http://saferide4kids.com/the-general-history-of-car-seats/

And I think it's a good comparison. In the 70's, the vast majority of people didn't use their available seat belts or require their children to use them. They didn't even bother. In the case of this woman, witnesses say she was attending to this boy, but got distracted with another child. That happens. Parents are not perfect.

[Coventina]

69. Nobody is perfect, but they are still responsible. n/t

[pnwmom]

71. And so are zoos. They are responsible for making sure their enclosures

are well designed and maintained. And this one was easily evaded by a 4 year old.

[Coventina]

72. If the gorilla escaped the enclosure, I'd agree with you. n/t

[pnwmom]

77. If this was an adult who'd gotten into the enclosure, I'd agree with you. n/t

[LeftyMom]

35. Back in the 50s my dad's family took a trip to DC

and at the National Zoo my dad (who by all accounts was... difficult) got separated from the family. In trying to get back to them he took what he thought would be a short cut between some cages and found himself in a pretty tightly enclosed space with a startled chimpanzee. Luckily for him he was scratched and bruised and his best shirt was ruined, but he managed to wriggle away.

And get back to my grandparents, who tanned his hide for getting away, for ruining his best shirt, and for telling such a stupid lie about what happened to his shirt.

For the record my grandparents were great, and my grandmother in particular loved children and was brilliant with them.

Dad's still got a mischievous streak and some impulse control problems.

Underestimating the ability of children to do dangerous and self-destructive stuff is a bad idea in any decade.

[PatSeg]

44. My son was a handful

especially during the preschool years. I could turn my head for a second and he'd be gone. I was far from a negligent parent, but he was hard to keep up with until he got older. I don't know what the 4-year-old's mother was doing when her son got into the enclosure, so I cannot judge her parenting skills, but apparently a lot of people are quick to blame her. I'm thinking many of them don't have children or they have selective memories.

Your dad sounds a lot like my son!

[LeftyMom]

56. My kid sister and my son were hell on wheels too.

My mother once told me it was a good thing I was first: she definitely wouldn't have had a second if my sister had been the eldest. Kid sister wound up being a really great adult with a talent for dealing with difficult kids. She still has a high need for physical activity, she just funnels it into the half dozen fitness classes a week she teaches after her regular job.

My son was one of those little hellions who could be stopped by no lock, who would climb over any barrier, who could be located only by the sound of giggling and the trail of discarded toddler-sized clothing. To my amazement he's become one of those rarest of creatures: a mellow, considerate teenager.

I have no patience for the revisionist history of perfect parents and their perfect children.

[PatSeg]

66. Oh, I can totally relate to all this!

My son ended up being a very mellow teenager as well. He recently became the father of twin boys and he is the most patient father one can imagine. The boys are much like he was as a toddler, so I will enjoy watching Karma unfold!

I watched my nieces and nephews grow up, as well as my friends' children, and they often ended up far different as adults than one could imagine when they were young. Being a parent is one of the hardest jobs there is and most people are really doing the best they can. It is easy to judge parents based on a brief impression, but having walked that path I am reluctant to do so.

".........the sound of giggling and the trail of discarded toddler-sized clothing" - Love it!

[BuelahWitch]

114. But if your son had told you he was "going swimming"

in the gorilla pit, would you accept that your "no you aren't" would do the trick and then have an "I'm done with you" attitude? That's why so many people are mad at this mother. she knew he was up to something and didn't act on it.

[pnwmom]

78. The mother had at least one other child with her. It's awfully hard to be 100%

attentive to any child 100% of the time -- and when you have more than one child, it's impossible.

[PatSeg]

86. And even when my daughter wasn't

with me, my son was equivalent to two or three little boys!

[pnwmom]

87. The stories I heard about my husband and his brother . . .

they are lucky they made it to kindergarten intact. They calmed down as they got older, but I have to give my mother-in-law a ton of credit for just keeping them alive in those years before kindergarten -- without squashing their spirits.

[PatSeg]

89. Yeah

Keeping them both alive and spirited takes some pretty skillful balancing! Sure took its toll on me at the time!

[RoccoR5955]

52. Me and my siblings grew up in the 1960s

We WERE the gorilla pits!

[deathrind]

28. True.

Which is why it boggles the mind to hear a child who found a firearm and shot themselves or another framed as a "tragic accident". There is nothing accidental about that scenario.

[metroins]

4. Comparative negligence

You take your child to the zoo for a good time, you can reasonable expect to have safety measures in place to keep children out of cages. A reasonable prudent person could foresee children climbing over certain obstacles, and "wild" animals are absolutely dangerous; whereas the parents also should have kept a closer watch on their child.

I don't know much about the zoo kid thing, but it's typically a sharing in responsibility in these scenarios.

[Coventina]

8. And such reasonable measures were taken, as demonstrated by DECADES of

the exhibit having no issues.

If you are bringing your children to the zoo to have a good time, it is reasonable to be watching said children.
Don't bring them to the zoo and neglect them, the ONLY way that kid could have gotten in there.

[metroins]

11. There's multiple parties at fault

To make it simple, people drank hot coffee from flimsy cups for decades until a slight lapse in judgement and a spill changed the way we package it to customers.

I don't know enough about the zoo kid to figure out how long he/she was out of the sight of their parents. 4 year olds can walk without a leash and are old enough to be able to look at things without hand holding. But again I don't know the case.

It's a two way street usually.

[Coventina]

17. As I posted down thread, yes, establishments have to have some safety measures.

As in, gorillas don't roam the zoo freely.

BUT, establishments do not have the responsibility to substitute for an attentive parent.

[magical thyme]

41. a reasonable prudent person could foresee that no one adult can control 4 small children

sufficiently to keep them out of trouble in any public situation. If she was in a habit of going out with a baby in her arms and 3 small children on the loose, the real surprise is that one or another of them didn't end up run over by a car or bus long ago.

If the zoo is at fault, I'd say it's only for letting her through with obviously more small children than a single adult can adequately supervise. They already probably have rules posted about age limits requiring adult supervision. They should consider limiting entry to small children with a ratio of adult supervisors sufficient to control them.

[moriah]

48. So what, she can never leave the house?

Look, birth control fails, and abortion is a choice, not your choice to make for someone else. Even tubal ligations.

If you want to fault her for taking them to a zoo and letting them get close to animals without having an extra adult to help, at least she's the kind of mom who takes her kids for fun things all kids enjoy vs beating them, but don't fertility or slut shame just because she has four kids. That's nothing even close to clowncar status.

[magical thyme]

93. no. you arrange to go places with a spouse or relative or friend

when you have all 4 kids with you. Or hire a babysitter for the youngest 2, and take just the older 2.

At the very least, you put the baby in a stroller, freeing up your hands to hold harnessed & leashed kids if necessary.

What you don't do is go walking down busy streets, or to bus stops or subway stops, or other places where an escaped toddler could end up in big trouble, without all the kids under control. Because the outside world is *not* going to be in bubble wrap for your benefit.

Years ago, I ran in front of an oncoming car to save a runaway toddler, whose mother's arms were both occupied with shopping bags when her daughter took off.

I literally felt that woman's panic when I risked my life to save her child's. I have empathy for the terror she felt as her daughter started out into the street with a car coming up the steep hill who could not possibly see the little girl over the hood of her car.

Lucky for that driver that I saved her from a potential devastating accident.
Lucky for the mother and little girl that somebody was willing to risk their life to save hers.
Lucky for me that the driver stopped literally just in time with her bumper crushing my purse against my hip.

I feel for that mother, but she had no fucking right to take a toddler out in public without keeping her under control. You have a runner? Keep a hand free to hold theirs, or put a harness and leash on them, or shop with a friend and ask them to hold some of your bags so you can hang on to your child.

Would I do it again? Probably not.

This mother took a huge risk when she took 4 small children to the zoo without a way to control all of them if any one decided to act up. As I wrote above, she's lucky her 4 year old didn't run out in front of an oncoming car while she was distracted with the other 3 kids.

[moriah]

110. Then I hope you're never a mom with four kids and a husband working....

.... who runs out of diapers, or can't afford a babysitter.

[magical thyme]

126. if you have 4 small children and can't afford a babysitter, then you can't afford to go to the zoo.

Regardless of what you do or do not hope, I will never have any children beyond my furkids or a husband.

[Dorian Gray]

124. Right

Because zoos are notoriously dangerous places where horrible things always happen. Why would a mother ever take four children there?


Your standard seems to be that we need to helicopter our children forever. It's untenable.

[magical thyme]

125. the world is a dangerous place. parking lots are dangerous, busway and subway stops are dangerous

freeways are dangerous and back roads are dangerous...for unattended toddlers.

When you go out into the world as a parent it is incumbent upon *you* to protect your children. The rest of us are not your free babysitters.

[Dorian Gray]

127. Listen

I've done a fine job managing my daughter's safety. But tragic accidents happen. They don't mean that the MOTHER is a unworthy of being a parent or that she did anything wrong.

Why do you need to blame her for being inattentive? Why does anybody have to be blamed?

A child is kidnapped? Blame the Mother for letting him play outside.

A child is molested? Blame the mother for dating the scumbag that did it.

A child gets hit by a car? Blame the mother who let her run in the street.

A child is involved in a plane accident? Blame the mother who brought her on the trip.

A child gets lost at Disneyland? Blame the mother who reached into her bag to get sunscreen.

A child jumps into a gorilla enclosure at the zoo? Blame the mom who has four children.



Blaming makes other people feel good that nothing tragic has happened in their life. It must be because they are GOOD parents or people who would never make the same mistakes.

[renate]

151. you're awesome!

Wow! There aren't words... you're spectacular!

[avebury]

58. I totally agree with you.

What makes this woman even more negligent is the fact that she works for a daycare and should certainly understand the concept of adult to child ratio when taking kids out in public to make sure that the children are properly supervised.

[magical thyme]

94. she works for a daycare?!?!?!!!!! jeez, now there's a daycare I'd remove my child from in a

hurry. She definitely should have known better.

Were these even her kids?

[avebury]

95. Yes the were her kids.

You should have seen the daycare's FB page. They took a pretty solid pounding to the point that they ended up taking down the FB page.

[jtuck004]

42. A reasonably prudent person would expect the mother to be watching her young so the little

Last edited Tue May 31, 2016, 08:00 PM - Edit history (1)

fuck trophy doesn't find a hole that no one else can get through.

Was she drunk, or stoned? I see her as a mother who nearly committed manslaughter, or murder.

There is not an animal in that zoo which doesn't take better care of their young than this sorry excuse for parents.

On edit: When one wins something in their life, and they get the award, they are proud of it. They may even sleep with it. It is the "most important thing" and they can tell you everything about it, where it is, every minute of every day.

Then the newness wears off, they put it on a shelf, it gets dusty, they find other things that are more important. Then one day it falls off the shelf into a tub of water.

Someone picks it up, not knowing what it is, and moves it somewhere else, So you put a bullet in their head since you can't think of anything else to do.

I think fuck trophy is the least insulting thing about this whole sordid affair.It describes something treated as a possession that has lost it's focus as the once mos-important-thing.

Even for a deadly minute.

You don't take your kid out in public to make it everyone else's responsibility if you care.

[moriah]

46. Nice to call a kid a "fuck trophy".

Such commentary makes it sound like you would rather the child had died instead of the gorilla, just to teach the mother you're slut-shaming for having four children that she should have aborted or "kept her legs shut".

[jtuck004]

47. You certainly don't think much of that woman, do you? How pathetic.

I think she could watch the kid - you obviously don't think she is capable.

Pity...

[moriah]

53. I think accidents happen and no one is perfect. And I hope you are never a parent...

... who has to learn the unfortunate lesson that even if you do your best, your child could still be harned.

I've known tok many who have, even if the "mistake" was as simple as having no other babysitter than a sickly grandparent who didn't hear the boys cooperate to unlock the deadbolts to sneak out while she was diapering the baby, and being so poor you accepted the place toblive offered that was free despite it having an unfenced pond.

It takes less than five minutes of inattention for a child to die. If you actually expect every parent to never, ever have a lapse of attention, you're not one.

Edit to add: Grandmother was actually charged with negligent homicide, when she'd been taking care of those boys ever since her daughter's birth control kept failing. The last baby was actually conceived after the guy had a V. It was pled down but she had to be carried out of the funeral because of an asthma attack from crying so hard even before charges were filed.

[merrily]

59. Jury results

A reasonably prudent person would expect the mother to be watching her young so the little
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7869849

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Referring to the mother of four children as seeing her kids as "fuck trophies" is not only sexist slut shaming but way over the top.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue May 31, 2016, 10:26 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's neither, as the same term is used for negiligent fathers as well.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Slut shaming? It's rude, but not everything in life is sexist.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Hiding for "fuck trophy". Really?
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: BS Alert. The poster called the child a fuck trophy. The poster never said the mother saw her children as fuck trophies.

[Live and Learn]

65. Fuck trophy??? Wow, what a disgusting term to call a child. nt

[prayin4rain]

92. You should probably consider therapy. n/t

[jtuck004]

98. As opposed to people who feed children to gorillas via thier negligence, or people

who make excuses for those that do.

Neither one is all different, or impressive. :rofl. At least I respect people and think they can do better, but I see some aren't burdened by such things.

This person says it better than I. He is speaking about parental behavior at another favorite gathering place, but the advice seems just as good,

"1. Bring your bad-ass, Zika virus adjacent-ass kids and expect that since there are other adults around, you don’t have to watch them
Maybe it takes a village to raise a child, but the village aint responsible for your neglectful-ass allowing your pinheaded seven-year-olds to slapbox by the flame pit. If being a parent is too difficult for you today, at least put a leash on those little motherfuckers or chain them to a flag pole so they don’t knock over my plate."

Here

I don't think I will care to read anything more from someone who thinks so little of others. bye.

[prayin4rain]

104. Oh, I get it now. A Colbert style Limbaugh parody. Cute! n/t

[Dorian Gray]

128. ditto

[BuelahWitch]

116. I personally think "fuck trophy" is great!

Too many people think of their children as special snowflakes that we all need to mind while they're out doing God knows what. No people, when I am out it is not my job to "babysit" your child while you are on your damn cell phone. Too bad, so sad, not sorry!

[WatchWhatISay]

144. This place

This place is so infested

[No Vested Interest]

43. Remember, the little boy repeatedly told his mother that he wanted

to be in the moat below.
She was forewarned, and as his mother, she must have know his temperament and predilections.

It seems she may have taken on more than she could handle by bringing four children, including an infant, to a busy venue, without sufficient adult assistance.
She may have meant well, but a lapse in judgment occurred.
I have read that the father works in Cleveland, and it would seem that he was not at the zoo.

[narnian60]

102. +1

[BuelahWitch]

117. And that is the damning evidence right there

She knew what he was up to, and her responsibility did not end when she said, "No, you can't." She should have known her son better as to whether or not "no you can't" would stop him. Instead she decided she was done with the matter and focused on another kid.

[winter is coming]

141. Yup, that would have been my cue to say, "let's go see the giraffes",

take the kid by the hand, and go.

[No Vested Interest]

142. Good point. Distract the child by providing an alternative. nt

[unblock]

10. "if you can't handle such a responsibility, please, don't reproduce."

ha! irresponsibility is what leads to a whole lot of reproduction in the first place!


oh and by the way, having nothing to do with children, establishments do have some responsibility for the safety of their patrons, which is what makes restaurants clean up spills quickly, mark off slippery areas, etc.

[Coventina]

15. Agreed that there is a level of safety that has to be maintained.

But establishments are NOT supposed to have to take the place of attentive parents.

[oldandhappy]

14. used to was parents were responsible

now, now so sure
seems no one is responsible for anything any more

[cwydro]

19. K and r.

Exactly.

[jehop61]

20. I agree parents are ultimately responsible

What I do find puzzling is do any of the people castigating the zoo even know what security measures were in place? How do we know if the zoo, which is great, was liable? A debate which will probably end up in a court somewhere

[One_Life_To_Give]

22. Perception vs reality

Kids are not getting killed on the side of I-95, so I think parents get the idea they are responsible for their kids safety. I think the real issue comes to Parents Assuming there is a degree of protection that is not actually there. Most safeguards are not intended to prevent someone from causing harm to themselves or others. Yet sometimes I think people have that impression. Very rarely do we protect things to the level prevents intentional acts or actions which are similar. There is an assumption that the individual does not want to harm themselves. When we forget about that bad things can and will happen.

[Nay]

30. I don't think that zoos are responsible for ADULTS who intend to harm themselves

by finding a way into a zoo enclosure (such as the naked guy jumping into the lion pit).

However, children are another matter, for some very good reasons:

1. They have not developed good judgement and are impulsive, curious, and obsessive by nature, and
often do not have a concept of danger at all -- cannot be required to understand potentially harmful
situations and avoid them
2. They are physically small, and enclosures must take that into account
3. Children are slippery little devils and can disappear in seconds, esp in crowds, no
matter how attentive a parent is
4. Children are a fixture at zoos for obvious reasons, so any safety measures MUST address
the characteristics of children first, especially very young children like this boy

I agree that parents, in general, will assume that their children, if lost in a zoo, cannot easily wander into a dangerous animal enclosure. I don't think this is weird of them to assume this. I never assumed a damned thing when my son or grandson was little, but I was a truly watchful and paranoid parent. But guess what? My son STILL got away from me once or twice. It is MUCH worse now to keep track of your kids in any public place because the crowds are so much bigger than when I was a parent 40 years ago.

[sofa king]

26. I have a touch-look sister who did just that!

It was in a glassworks store and, at the age of 8, she couldn't resist grabbing at the glass menagerie, which was in a glass cabinet, which she tried to reach through and wound up pushing, which toppled to the tune of about $800 dollars. Fortunately nobody was injured.

Our parents assumed responsibility, paid the bill on the spot, and cut costs by making sure none of us ever had fun again.

[edgineered]

29. All public beaches should also be closed.

There have been far too many shark attacks on swimmers to allow the continuing use of such dangerous areas. (for the impaired)

[karynnj]

31. Parents do have the primary responsibility, but the society they live in should help

with usually does. It does not take much for a child, even well watched, to suddenly move out of sight - especially when there are more than 2 of them.

[Frank Cannon]

34. My wife has "little kid in peril" radar

Several times she has had to steer a child away from doing something that is about to end them or cause a great deal of expensive damage. Most of the time, the child's mother steps in immediately after and is grateful. Most of the time.

[Bettie]

37. I have done this as well

I think it's an experienced mom thing.

And a "my kids are getting older, so I have to look at the cute little ones when I'm out and about" thing too, at least for me.

[LibDemAlways]

57. I once prevented a child from

Last edited Tue May 31, 2016, 02:50 PM - Edit history (1)

falling out of a shopping cart while the mom was looking at the items in the meat case. Believe it or not, she became angry with me for daring to touch her child. Sometimes you can't win. I'd do it again, though, in a heartbeat.

[Frank Cannon]

62. That's from shock and embarrassment.

My wife just gently informs THOSE parents about what calamity was just averted, smiles, and walks away.

Then she tells me in the car, "CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT STUPID WOMAN?!! "

Most of the moms are nice and grateful. We really do need to look out for each other.

[valerief]

39. Exactly. If it was difficult for the mother to control four kids at the zoo, she shouldn't have

brought four kids to the zoo.

[Arizona Roadrunner]

40. Some questions

Questions: What was the parent to child ratio in this situation? Were there two parents present or one parent with several children? If this is only a three foot high barrier, why didn't the zoo require parents to have smaller children on a leash? Where is the zoo security staff? How mobile are they in being able to move around the area vs. being assigned a specific spot to stand watch over? Anyway, there are a lot of questions the media could and should be asking besides the obvious ones.

[moriah]

45. Okay, and when you have a child and fuck up for five minutes, accept your crucifixion.

Because that's less time than it takes for a child to silently drown, be abducted/wander off, or have an accident.

If only perfect people reproduce we will die out because NO one is perfect.

[Coventina]

70. If a child ever were to die / be seriously injured in my care, because I was "distracted" so be it.

I certainly wouldn't try to say it was the fault of someone else.

[moriah]

73. And has she been doing that? No.

http://heavy.com/news/2016/05/michelle-gregg-cincinnati-zoo-mother-mom-name-gorilla-harambe-facebook-photos-son-petition/

But for the protection of everyone, zoos should have higher than 3 feet tall fences IMHO. The accident in Little Rock happened because the person held their kid deliberately up so they could see better and he fell.

Edit for link there: http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2014/10/10/little-rock-police-report-call-to-zoo-for-child-in-cat-enclosure

[Coventina]

74. I can't speak for this zoo in particular, as I've never been, but every zoo I have been to

has signs EVERYWHERE about NOT violating safety barriers and keeping an eye on your children.

If people choose to violate safety barriers and NOT watch their children, I don't see how that's the zoo's fault.

If the gorilla escaped the enclosure, that's a whole different issue.

[moriah]

83. Yes. The thing that is sickening to me, though, is that no one seems to understand that...

.... accidents happen! Yes, the zoo probably will review both their barriers and their procedures for de-escalation as this child was neither the first or likely the last to fall into an enclosure at various zoos, and non-lethal techniques will be added.

But since the kid lived, people are crucifying the mother, for everything from having faith to having too many kids.

If you want to talk negligence, dangling your kid over a cat enclosure should be far more blame-worthy than losing track of a toddler for a few minutes, which has happened to nearly every parent at least once.

You hope the spidey sense will alert you, you listen for things to be too quiet, but I nearly burned the house down before I was three because I woke up before everyone else, decided to make my mom and dad breakfast in bed, and put the butter on the bread before putting it in the toaster. They were sleeping like logs, and so was my 11 year old sister, because they had worked all week. I managed to, luckily, unplug the toaster before digging the burnt toast out, and also luckily in my panic at seeing flames that didn't go out when I unplugged it (I remember being angry about that, things were supposed to stop.working when you unplugged them) I took my sisters wet bathing suit and put it over the toaster rather than threw water on it.

My parents awoke to two horribly burned pieces of "toast" on saucers.

[Coventina]

85. People are crucifying the mother because an innocent, endangered creature was sacrificed due to her

inattention.

Agree that dangling kids over displays is WORSE: a sin of commission rather than omission. But both are WRONG, and a creature paid for it in pain and blood.

Well, that's my bug-a-boo. Maybe others are mad about the faith & number of kids. Those are both non-issues to me, personally.

[moriah]

109. I, too, wish that neither primate had to die.

But even if I am not a parent, I know enough helping with my friend's children that toddlers can get into situations faster than you can blink, and everyone blinks.

And I have been to far too many funerals for children I had known since infancy. I think the only reason charges were brought in one case was that was when my best friend's two boys, nearly 3 and nearly 5, had managed to make their grandma think they were still watching TV to sneak out and go swimming instead of waiting for the promised swim after their Dad got home (his parents had offered them a free place to live, a trailer next to an unfenced pond that they'd actually won a lawsuit to refuse to fence it decades before -- never thinking it'd be their own grandkids who could fall victim to the "attractive nusiance&quot . She was doing laundry, so there were noises from machines, and caring for an infant as well.

She finished diapering her only granddaughter -- had been the primary babysitter for all three of her grandchildren when her daughter's birth control never seemed to work right. Winter Rowan was only born because they didn't wait long enough after the V he got and both condoms and Depo failed. And realized it was too quiet. Saw the chairs they'd moved to climb high enough to undo the locks. Screamed, panicked, they didn't have a phone so ran to a neighbor.

The youngest was found faster --- they had to drag the pond for her eldest grandson.

If it hadn't been so televised, they wouldn't have put her through criminal charges (even if it got reduced and all she had was probation, it was hell on a woman who loved those babies like her own and had probably changed more diapers than either of the parents for all three, since they both had to work just to pay bills and she was too ill to work). There were in-law disagreements and guilt, too, so it totally destroyed a family.

But Winter is still here, even if she wasn't planned. She doesn't remember much.

[Coventina]

112. Very tragic story, and I'm so sorry for your friend's loss.

I lost my only child, and I know others who have been through the same and it never goes away.

But I have to say that according to the details of your story, that grandmother was 100% responsible. It doesn't mean she didn't love the kids any less, but she was the responsible party, charged with their safety.

Yes, kids have a knack for getting into trouble (some more than others). That's why adults don't have the luxury of getting distracted.

My best friend from high school's mother actually filled in her backyard pool when my friend had her first child. She wanted to be a babysitting grandma, and didn't want to even take that chance. Not even with a fence.

Different people have different standards for what is reasonable precaution.

This story of the woman at the zoo violates all of mine.

4 preschoolers and one adult? Holding a baby in one's arms the whole time? (Thus severely handicapped in controlling the other three). Arguing with the tot about whether he was going to go play with the gorillas?

It all sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, especially coming from someone who is supposedly a childcare professional.

[moriah]

113. What more was she supposed to do?

The deadbolts were higher than any child should have been able to reach, SHE had to use a stepstool to reach the highest chain only being 5'. Which sadly may have given the boys the idea to climb, but it was installed high as soon as they moved in.

It wasn't HER house, or her property, or her idea to put a trailer next to an unfenced pond they'd already been told was dangerous by neighbors and have toddlers living there.

My friend and her husband had been talking about getting alarms for the doors if they were opened the week before. Yet more guilt.

But if you're going to say she was "100% responsible" for their deaths, then while I'm sorry for your own loss, if I say another word this post will be hidden.

Edit:

Actually, I can say one more thing. You'd probably have said my grandfather would have been "100% responsible" too if one of the many times he, as the only adult too sjck to work, couldn't catch me when I figured out how to unlock the simple locks and get out and I had been hit by a car at 3, instead of thinking about the fact I'd been living previously in a trailer park and allowed to roam so teaching me that wasn't okay in the city was difficult, or that he wasn't working because he had emphysema and COULDN'T run.

And that makes me even more angry.

[Coventina]

115. I didn't intend to anger you, but you did post the story, I assumed for my comment.

If you didn't want me to post my honest opinion, then why post the story?

Of course, in this format there is no way I could know all the details in order to form an omniscient opinion. There are lots of factors that have so far gone unmentioned that could come into play.

I said what I said based on the information given.

My personal opinion, is that if our society truly valued children, then we would pay custodial parents to stay at home with their kids in addition to investing in a high-quality childcare infrastructure for children whose parents choose to work instead of staying home. Giving custodial parents a livable income would go a long way to helping parents who are overstretched and exhausted.

But the sad fact is, that in this country, parenthood is only lauded as noble "work" when rich white women do it (like Anne Romney) and not when poor women do it. It's the most important job in the world, raising the next generation, but this country does next to nothing to support it.

So yeah, while I would argue that your grandfather was responsible for your safety while you were in his care, I would also say that he never should have had to cope with that as a sick man. If we truly valued our citizens, that is.

[moriah]

118. I thought I made the circumstances pretty clear on those points in the first post.

1) The adult responsible for the children was the only adult available to care for them, and in poor health, but everyone else was working to make ends meet.
2) She wasn't taking care of them on her own property, where she could have had more control over the environment beyond the tools available.
3) That the children had cooperated to climb high enough to reach engaged locks, and that yes, they were high enough to require significant effort.
4) That she was doing her best and not being deliberately neglectful of the children.
5) That tbe children were living next door to an unfenced pond that had been deliberately left unfenced by the other side of the family even after deciding it was a pretty place to put the trailer where children would live.

Coming back with saying she was 100% responsible for the deaths simply because she was the one there makes me really question people's understanding of the fact we used to call these things tragedies and realize that no parent is perfect, has eyes in the back of their head, and hindsight is always 20/20.

[Coventina]

132. Just because somebody was responsible doesn't mean they were ill-intentioned.

I never said the woman in your story was being deliberately neglectful, but obviously, it was more than she could handle.

It wasn't fair to her to place her in that position. That's why I spent some time in the previous post talking about why we need better support for families in this country.

[moriah]

137. I agree, but you can't say someone who shouldn't be...

... forced into childcare despite problems that can potentially limit their caretaking abilities can be 100% to blame when a tragedy strikes. And without the sadly unaffordable at that time alarms discussed, it could have happened anytime. They were more afraid of them waking up in the night and trying to have an "adventure" when it was discussed than they were that the boys would disobey Grandma when she said they could watch their show and started a load of laundry for her daughter so she had less to do when she finally got off work, then had to deal with a diaper blowout.

Until the problems that created the situation are fixed, laying blame or criminal charges against families in poverty who made the best decisions available to them is utterly wrongheaded. CPS isn't criminal investigation, that's why it hss the power it does. And also the power to get families services they need.

[Coventina]

139. Your point is well-taken. In that larger sense, we are all to blame.

Which is why fighting for social justice and a stronger social safety net has ALWAYS been one of my top priorities in life.

And, believe me, I AM sorry that the grandmother in your case faced criminal charges, because from what you describe, all reasonable precautions had been taken and she did nothing "wrong", she just had more than she could handle at once. That is a world of difference, to me, than actively taking 4 preschoolers alone, into a public environment that was totally uncontrolled.

Criminal charges should only be applied when there has been reckless disregard for the child's safety, and that certainly was not the case in your story. And, it may not even be true of the gorilla case, I'm happy to leave that up to law enforcement. As I stated before, what infuriates me is that the mother's lack of judgment in that case resulted in the painful death of another creature.

I also have to say, in the spirit of full disclosure, that I was raised by a neglectful mother, and so as the oldest sibling I became responsible for my younger siblings at a very young age (6) and this probably also colors my perceptions a bit.

[moriah]

143. It wasn't four preschoolers...

Two (toddler that fell, then infant), and then two probably elementary school aged children from the pictures.

http://heavy.com/news/2016/05/michelle-gregg-cincinnati-zoo-mother-mom-name-gorilla-harambe-facebook-photos-son-petition/

With faces blurred its hard to tell, but I think Isaiah was the third-youngest out of tbe four.

And my sister was forced into caring for me far too much until we moved in with my grandparents, from about 9-12. She never had children, can't blame her. It was my dad that was neglectful and wouldn't get a job, Mom could only find a job doing inventory. So she was only home on weekends.

[avebury]

105. People should stop referring the incident as an accident.

When a child repeatedly tells Mom he is going to go in the gorilla enclosure and does exactly that - it is intentional. The child my not realize the consequence of that action but it was intentional. He followed through on his desires.

If the mother hears her child repeatedly say I am going to go in and play with the gorillas and then turns away from the child, should she really be that surprised that the child actually ended up in the moat?

She obviously took more children to the zoo that day then she could handle by herself. This was no accident, the incident could have been avoided and the gorilla would be alive today. If only she had done more than tell the child no since the child obviously didn't listen to Mom. I can only imagine what that household is like. The inmates (i.e. children) probably run the assylum.

[moriah]

108. Unless you are there, have video, or have other...

Personal evidence, then your beliefs about what actually happened prior to video starting are no more or less accurate than the MANY witnesses who have said that the mother was actively searching for her son at the time he entered the enclosure.

http://heavy.com/news/2016/05/michelle-gregg-cincinnati-zoo-mother-mom-name-gorilla-harambe-facebook-photos-son-petition/

I hate zoos. I think they're cruel, higher primate exhibits especially. I am saddened that an animal not too different from a human was killed because a human child did as human children do, and human adults are ONLY human -- we may have a little more brain mass but we aren't perfect.

But if you want to talk about things that weren't accidents:

Someone, either the poor child's biological father who had already lost a son (he was totally not at fault there so wasn't brought up in the media much) or his new girlfriend brutally beat two-year-old Malik Drummond to death -- autopsy shows that the boy had a skull fracture and a rib fracture, too. His father has admitted to burying the boy's body (though not deep enough), then reported him missing. Strangely, despite the girlfriend going to the police a year later first and putting total blame on the boy's biological father (though not claiming he'd ever hit her, just his own kids) the dad was recently allowed to plead "no contest" to reduced charges and a 40-year sentence with possibility of parole. The girlfriend still hasn't been charged with more than hindering prosecution, but her story isn't fully supported by evidence, and since he wasn't forced to allocute (confess to the crimes under oath) he's poised to testify against her should evidence actually implicate her.

But even if her story to cops was true, she sat there and did nothing while her boyfriend gave a two year old two severe beatings in the same night, and said that pictures from his missing persons fliers showed bruises from a pattern of ongoing abuse. Two people are responsible for the death of that child. (It's worth noting that after Leslie could only get him to make statements indicating he knew Malik was dead and that "she didn't have anything to worry about", and the police impounding his brother's truck that he'd used to dispose of the body, he turned himself in with no lawyer and led them to his son's then-scattered remains.)

I could go on.

[magical thyme]

96. she didn't fuck up for 5 minutes. she fucked up when she chose to take 4 kids to a busy, high

traffic area without good child control measures in place before leaving her home.

She fucked up by assuming she couldn't possibly get distracted by one kid at a busy, high traffic area filled with distractions, and lose track or 1 or 2 or 3 other kids for 5 minutes.

How somebody could have 4 kids and not consider that they might lose track of one or another for 5 minutes is hard to understan.d

How somebody could work in a daycare and not consider that they might lose track of one kid or another for 5 minutes is hard to understand.

How somebody could manage to do both -- be a parent to 4 small children and work with a bunch of small children -- and not recognize that you need more than 2 hands and one pair of eyes to keep them out of trouble simply defies comprehension.

[xloadiex]

51. I watched an interview last night

from a woman who says the child was arguing with the mom before hand. He was telling her he was going to do it. She came back with, "No, you're not" and back and forth. This mom definitely dropped the ball in keeping an eye on this kid.

But hey, god protected her son so all is good.

[avebury]

61. That sounds like the type of kid who has no fear of anything

and is probably the most likely to do something like that. A friend of mine has a kid the same age and he has no sense of fear of anything. He is the type of kid that, if you tell him not to do something, will look you straight in the eye, grin and do it anyway.

Kids like that are totally predictable and you need to be aware of what they are doing at all times. It is amazing that my friend's son has not broken any bones yet.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

54. I can't tell you how many times I've watched parents crossing

the street with a toddler bringing up the rear and the parent looking straight ahead and not holding hands with the child.

[LibDemAlways]

63. I saw that the other day.

Stupid and negligent. I was once walking into a store and because the door was briefly open, a toddler walked out. I immediately alerted the customers standing nearby and the mother angrily asked me why I didn't stop the child from leaving. My response, "Why didn't you?"

[liberal N proud]

55. I see so many parents allow their kids to climb everywhere

They climb in stores
They climb in church
They clime on walls
They climb on statues

I have seen kids climbing on the status at the Vietnam War Memorial

Worst part, these parent think their children are angles.

[LibDemAlways]

60. There isn't a parent alive who

hasn't momentarily lost sight of a child at least once. I am the ultimate controlling super watchful parent. My daughter will attest to that. Yet, when she was about 4 she wandered away from me in a toy store when I stopped to take a look at the children's book section. One second she was right beside me. A few seconds later she was gone and I went into panic mode. Yes, it happens.

In this case the parent should have been watching more closely and the zoo should not have had a gap that allowed the child access to the gorilla habitat. Shared responsibility for the child's well being. Neither is blameless.

[nolabear]

67. Blame serves to comfort us into thinking it would never happen to us. We're wrong.

I'm so sorry about what happened to all of the individuals involved in this tragedy. But it happened because it happened. A perfect storm of active, unknowing child, a mother who may well have been wonderfully attentive but lost track for that one moment when he made the decision to do something almost unimaginable, and a beautiful but very dangerous creature whose life was sacrificed in order to save the victim of an awful accident.

I was as attentive a parent as one can possibly be without destroying my two sons by not letting them live full lives. I bit my lips and let them take reasonable chances and watched them in ways they'll never know about. And man...we had EMTs have to cut one's head out of a bannister. One toppled off a chair, just sitting there, and broke an arm. One locked down a JC Penny when he thought it would be fun to hide from me in the clothes rack. One tripped on the gas hose at a filling station and got sprayed in the face with gasoline (EMTs again). One stuck a raisin up his nose and had to have it removed by a doctor. One almost got killed by a falling store shelf full of paint (he was RIGHT behind me when it broke loose from the wall). One gave himself a shiner when he decided to show off his new shoes and charged into a display. We made it through with much care and some luck.

I also worked with wildlife at one time. All the care in the world can't cover every possibility. The enclosure was designed to be the best they could create for the gorillas, while providing reasonable protection for the public. Believe me, no enclosure is perfect when a determined human wants to breach it unless it's also so artificial as to be bad for the creatures it serves. I'm sure they'll look long and hard into what they might have done differently but everything is imperfect.

Things happen. Bad things happen. They will happen to you and you will wonder how they did. And if you're very lucky you won't have to bear what this mother and this zoo are having to bear. They'll be second guessing themselves about what they could have done forever without anyone's disdain.

[PatSeg]

88. Oh my,

you brought back so many memories.

When my son was only two years old, we went to my daughter's elementary school for some activity. All of a sudden firemen rushed into the building, surprising everyone. I looked over at my uncharacteristically sheepish son as he was standing next to the fire alarm, which was of course at children's level in an elementary school. We decided it was time to go home!

The world is not black and white, and there isn't usually one good answer to every problem. People are so quick to blame someone, when there often is no one at fault. No matter how hard we try to prepare, bad things happen.

[nolabear]

149. I feel ya, sister! I felt terrible about all those things, but

Ninety nine percent of the time they were fine. And it wasn't because they weren't trying!

[PatSeg]

153. Thanks for some sanity

DU can get quite contentious, especially during primary season. I tread very lightly when I venture over here!

[raccoon]

147. Great post! and that is so true,

Blame serves to comfort us into thinking it would never happen to us.

[PatSeg]

154. Very true!

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

148. Wow... I've been lucky with my sons so far.

No big accidents or anything where we needed to involve police and such. Here's hoping the trend continues.

[nolabear]

150. Little disasters you can roll with. We really were fine almost all the time.

Heck, kids play sports that whack their brains and bodies around on purpose! I had to hold my breath and tell myself that the joy of climbing that tree outweighed the likelihood of dying in a fall. If we were sane we'd never put them in cars at all.

[JonathanRackham]

81. For any given problem there can be multiple points of responsibility.

Maybe the parents could have watched their child a little better, maybe the zoo could have done something a little better.

Consider, does every linear mile of railroad track need a fence on both sides with barbed wire on top backed up with an electric fence?

There are children who are a little more inquisitive than others, there are some parents that are less attentive than others.

I predict in the end only the lawyers will benefit.

[salinsky]

84. I don't know the mother, so I'm not going to pass judgement ...

... on her parenting skills.

A precocious three or four-year-old can disappear in a heartbeat even if the parent is being completely attentive and aware.

I think it is reasonable to expect zoos to design their displays in such a way so that they are impenetrable by wayward toddlers.

That can't be difficult.

[Ms. Toad]

100. Legally, you are incorrect.

Under tort law, zoos owe a duty to their patrons not act negligently with respect to risks to their patrons arising from the wild animals they keep.

That means that the zoo had to act as other reasonably prudent zoos would act to keep their patrons safe from the wild animals. Whether they met their duty or not remains to be seen. But, from a legal perspective, the zoo is responsible for meeting minimum standards of care.

(Under Ohio law, any judgment against the zoo for the parents would be reduced by the mother's share of the blame. She may ALSO be responsible. But as long as long as her share was 50% or less, even if the zoo was also negligent, she recovers something.

[Gomez163]

101. There is strict liability when it comes to dangerous animals.

I don't think contributory negligence mitigates that.

[Ms. Toad]

106. Not for zoos.

There is an exception for entities with a public mandate to keep wild animals (e.g. zoos). In order to be liable, the zoo must have been at least negligent - so yes, modified comparative negligence (Ohio's shared negligence scheme) will come into it if there is a lawsuit.

[Gomez163]

107. Ok

[EllieBC]

103. It seems like there's more anger at this mom than at the parents

who forget their kids in cars. Entire studies devoted to letting those people off the hook complete with telling people to put their cell phones or laptops next to the carseat so they look back there.

But this mother is The Worst Parent ever?

[Dorian Gray]

119. It must be difficult

not having a higher horse to sit on.

[lame54]

123. no shit...

black and white thinking

[Rex]

138. Hmmm...that sounds way too reasonable for DU, won't fly.

Evidently we are to be of one hive mind on this topic according to some. The gorilla had to be destroyed, otherwise he might have handed the kid over to his keepers and then asked for a bigger pen.

[Coventina]

140. *sigh* You would think, after 14 years I would learn this.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

145. Parents... or whoever is the guardian at the moment..

I can agree to that. I can't imagine such a thing ever happening to my kids (both rambunctious boys at that age). My husband and I would always be extra cautious with the kids at zoos... reminding them over and over they are not to climb on the fences or enclosures. Sometimes it is another adult that is watching though. Teachers, babysitters, grandparents, etc. I guess I would say there are also other adults responsible for the safety of children.

[hamsterjill]

152. Absolutely agree.

Parents are responsible not only for the safety of their children, but for the behavior of their children, as well.