Where do Libertarians come from?

[JonathanRackham]

Some of the social policies (drugs, prison reform, LBGT, race) sound good, on taxes and spending they have no financial clue how to run a business/government. What happened to the other half of their brain?

[whatthehey]

1. Smug idiots who think they "made themselves" without the help of government

While not paying for their own roads, education, defense, legal system, regulations for their suppliers, markets and customers, enforcement of their contracts and safety for themselves.

The real Galt's Gulch is in Somalia.

[tonyt53]

2. Very good description! Exceptional in fact!

[metroins]

3. Not exactly

The libertarian belief is their tax dollars should go towards their state, not the federal government. They believe in taxes, but they want local control over where it goes.

Libertarians are more in-line with the constitution, in my opinion, but they are grossly inefficient.

Medicare, Social Security, most of the FDA and EPA are great examples of federal involvement that the libertarians don't believe in.

I don't think libertarians learned "economy of scale".

[Donald Ian Rankin]

4. Libertarianism is what happens when you take a basically sound principle and overgeneralise it.

The idea that, in general, people should be allowed to make their own decisions, and the state should refrain from coercive action unless there's a good reason for it, is a sound one.

When you take that idea to its logical conclusion, you get libertarianism.

Coming from a country whose history from 1945 to 1990 or so was defined by a Cold War against Communism, and hence is prone to interpret "good" as meaning "as unlike Communism as possible" doesn't help either.

[Dont call me Shirley]

5. Here are just a few excerpts of the Libertarian Party platform that David Koch ran on in 1980:

“We urge the repeal of federal campaign finance laws, and the immediate abolition of the despotic Federal Election Commission.”
“We favor the abolition of Medicare and Medicaid programs.”
“We oppose any compulsory insurance or tax-supported plan to provide health services, including those which finance abortion services.”
“We also favor the deregulation of the medical insurance industry.”
“We favor the repeal of the fraudulent, virtually bankrupt, and increasingly oppressive Social Security system. Pending that repeal, participation in Social Security should be made voluntary.”
“We propose the abolition of the governmental Postal Service. The present system, in addition to being inefficient, encourages governmental surveillance of private correspondence. Pending abolition, we call for an end to the monopoly system and for allowing free competition in all aspects of postal service.”
“We oppose all personal and corporate income taxation, including capital gains taxes.”
“We support the eventual repeal of all taxation.”
“As an interim measure, all criminal and civil sanctions against tax evasion should be terminated immediately.”
“We support repeal of all law which impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws.”
“We advocate the complete separation of education and State. Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended.”
“We condemn compulsory education laws … and we call for the immediate repeal of such laws.”
“We support the repeal of all taxes on the income or property of private schools, whether profit or non-profit.”
“We support the abolition of the Environmental Protection Agency.”
“We support abolition of the Department of Energy.”
“We call for the dissolution of all government agencies concerned with transportation, including the Department of Transportation.”
“We demand the return of America's railroad system to private ownership. We call for the privatization of the public roads and national highway system.”
“We specifically oppose laws requiring an individual to buy or use so-called "self-protection" equipment such as safety belts, air bags, or crash helmets.”
“We advocate the abolition of the Federal Aviation Administration.”
“We advocate the abolition of the Food and Drug Administration.”
“We support an end to all subsidies for child-bearing built into our present laws, including all welfare plans and the provision of tax-supported services for children.”
“We oppose all government welfare, relief projects, and ‘aid to the poor’ programs. All these government programs are privacy-invading, paternalistic, demeaning, and inefficient. The proper source of help for such persons is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals.”
“We call for the privatization of the inland waterways, and of the distribution system that brings water to industry, agriculture and households.”
“We call for the repeal of the Occupational Safety and Health Act.”
“We call for the abolition of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.”
“We support the repeal of all state usury laws.”

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers

[appalachiablue]

18. K & R. Thanks for posting, too few people realize the scope of their disturbing platform.

[ronnie624]

29. Horrors.

Extremists, plain and simple.

[Dont call me Shirley]

35. Real life Treasoners.

[TeamPooka]

6. The GOP. Libertarians are Republicans who want to smoke weed. nt

[cemaphonic]

7. Not one myself, but I've worked with lots of the "techie libertarian" variety...

and come from the same sort of background that they do, so I get why they think the way they do. If you grow up in a strictly middle-to-upper-middle class area and your parents and their peers are mostly highly educated professionals, it makes for a very narrow socioeconomic mix. (racially to a fair extent too, although in my experience minority members that attain the status and trappings of middle class life are generally accepted). Education is strongly promoted, and educational opportunities are abundant and high quality. Also, for those of us under 45, the cultural zeitgeist is very much oriented around individualist self-expression, instead of collected effort.

That sort of upbringing looks very much like a pure meritocracy from the inside - those that work hard in school and college get good jobs and do well in life, and people that don't succeed just aren't trying hard enough. And if you do succeed, you end up in exactly the same sort of privileged environment that you grew up in, so your worldview is validated. It takes a certain amount of maturity and introspection to recognize all of the advantages that you had, and all the systems and institutions that are set up for you to succeed. (And the hours and focus of a tech education and career don't leave a lot of room for this sort of education). As a result, they tend to find the Republican anti-intellectualism and pandering to religious and rural values obnoxious, but they also view the Democratic support of unions, business regulations, and social welfare to stifle and distort the sort of meritocratic society they have built in their brains.

[Mosby]

8. I know lots of really good libertarian business people

What makes you think they are bad at business? They just don't like regulation and laws, American libertarians as a group are not any different than Russian business people who have destroyed their environment for profit, they are the same as Indian business people who's buildings collapse in earthquakes and storms because they don't follow construction codes, they are the same as Chinese business people who are polluting the air and water for profit and they are the same as Mexican business people who pay people 14 cents per hour because they can.

American libertarians care about themselves and their families, that's it. They don't give a shit about social issues, in fact the ones I know would happily give their employees meth if it was legal in order to get more out of them.

One guy I know who employs about 150 people in AZ told me that he could find people who would work for 50 cents per hour and the government should just mind their own fucking business. He doesn't care about gay marriage, abortion or whatever, he cares about making as much money as he can make. That's libertarianism.

[Peacetrain]

9. Jonathan if you ever find out what hole they are crawling out of.. let me know

and we will stuff it full of newspaper.. I do not understand them either.. been a mystery to me forever

[Hortensis]

10. Actually, libertarian is likely a third, genetically linked

personality type. (Before it is a political orientation.) Many who say they are libertarian are just conservatives drawn to the idea of sovereignty over their property and not paying taxes on their money, and there is quite a tug of war in their party between these very different peoples who only have some things in common.

For instance, conservatives are altruistic, often strongly, toward those they consider "their" people," while libertarians by personality are markedly lacking in altruism toward others. Conservatives have a whole basket of morals they live by, or feel they should, while libertarians put personal liberty at the top of the list, with everything else coming second at best; some may not even recognize any other moral duties.

Like other personality types, they vary in the strength of their traits, some at one extreme effectively nihilistic and drawn to chaos, some on the other end of the spectrum believing in a basic societal framework enforced by laws.

I've read some of their journal articles and listened at forums, and while intellectuals can put together some respectable-sounding philosophies that are real as far as they are adopted, many are no one I would trust to feed my cat. One of the leading voices of their movement, whose name I can't remember, has spoken wistfully of how interesting societal collapse would be. 300 million people with empty grocery stores, failing running water and electricity, and most with no prospect of getting enough to survive. Uhhuh.

[milestogo]

11. Haiti

Wait, that's the Libertarian paradise.

[former9thward]

25. Ahh no, Haiti has always been ruled by dictators.

Forget that?

[NobodyHere]

12. When I was in the military,

many people in my office converted to libertarianism when they saw how much money was wasted by the government.

[tenderfoot]

21. money especially wasted on the military

tons of it.

[mythology]

13. This quote I think explains it as well as anything

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

[Coventina]

14. When a right-winger loves his weed very, very much.....

That he doesn't want to give it up to follow the Republican platform, he gets a very special feeling in a special place that makes him think that he can love his weed but not be a dirty hippie.....

[dembotoz]

15. the concept of individual freedom does have appeal

[gollygee]

16. .

[JonathanRackham]

17. Priceless

Proud host of 3 rescue libertarians. LOL

[rug]

19. They were set free on the moors when they learned to walk.

They have returned.

[Yavin4]

20. If you want to know what a Libertarian world would look like

Watch "The Walking Dead".

[Mendocino]

22. From the mating

of cockroaches and vampires.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

23. They're numbed into indifference by excessive exposure to human stupidity

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

24. Libertarians are Republicans too high to peep in anyone's bedroom window. n/m

[Zambero]

26. A socially liberal sperm cell

matches up with a fiscally conservative egg cell. Although the cellular roles can be reversed. Don't believe those stork stories!

[dilby]

27. Libertarian is just a the mid point on the evolution of a conservative into a Liberal.

In the 90's I was a die hard Republican, but then by the late 90's I was a Libertarian since I wanted less government involvement in bedroom matters, abortion, religion and the war on drugs. Then Bush Jr. happened, 2 wars and an economy where I was doing great but most Americans were not which drew me to liberalism.

[Tortmaster]

28. Libertarianism is an excuse ...

... to be selfish, myopic, and to ignore reality. How else can you think that unregulated anything is good? For example, they don't believe in rules at their national convention against men with giant man boobs stripping.

[demosincebirth]

30. They're republicans who smoke pot.

[Jim Beard]

31. That is the best explaination I have heard

What breeds a person like Gary Johnson..... Being raised in a town that's one newspaper is a Libertarian publication of Santana Anna Register of Orange County California. A family of realtors in an Air Force town.

Perfect training situation.

[flying rabbit]

32. Anarchy

for rich people.

[Odin2005]

33. Scratch a Libertarian and you find underneath a Fascist Social-Darwinist...

...who thinks freedom means the "freedom" of the strong to oppress and exploit the weak. Libertarians want to be the Aristocrats of a corporate neo-feudalism. They are little boys with power fantasies that never grew up.

[HughBeaumont]

34. Logical Bollocksland.

Not that we didn't know that already, but this explains it better . . .

For similar reasons, libertarianism is a circular argument. Libertarians speak of "property" and "contract," as if these legal ideas somehow had meaning in the absence of law. Law is what matures mere possession or occupancy into "property". It's what allows your right to your dwelling to persist even when you leave it. These rights must be recognized by the consensus of local society to exist. The process that creates that consensus is a government, whether it's arrived at formally with pomp and circumstance by legislators and kings, or the result of an ad hoc discussion around the campfire. That consensus may be expressed more or less formally, but it necessarily includes definitions and limits.
In fact, property has always been the creation of a lawmaker, and therefore some sort of a government.

Much valuable wealth in civilized countries takes the form of such things as publicly traded stock and "intellectual property." The more important property rights are, the likelier they are to be embodied in legal documents like deeds, title documents, and statements of account. The market for real estate would be much less efficient without deeds registered at a government office that showed who owned what. Law called all of these things into being. The same holds true of contracts.

The aforementioned "Non-Aggression Principle" isn't quite as clear as many libertarians make it sound. Libertarians support force to hold up a system of property, a system which required force to be created (ask any indigenous person in a European-colonized country) and requires force to be maintained. Take fraud, for example. If a man is found to have lied to his health insurance company about a pre-existing condition, the police (in libertarian parlance, "Men with Guns&quot will use force against him. Libertarians call this "retaliatory force" and frame the acts by the sick man as initiating force which makes for a nice game of mental gymnastics.[18] Note that you may not use the same rationalizations to frame racism, or sexism, or union-smashing as force, (and their solutions as retaliatory force) since those are things libertarians are okay with.

[Lee-Lee]

36. My experience is Libertatians are folks who feel their encounters with government have been

more harmful to them than helpful.

A good friend of mine went from a more or less apathetic liberal- voted big no actvisim- to a hard core libertarian after her family had a long series of bad encounters with government at their farm, both from the IRS and environmental regulators at the state level. They were at fault in some, but I can see where the family didn't get fair treatment and was really screwed too.

When you feel that deeply you have been wronged it will change your outlook.