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HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 01:56 PM Jun 2016

No, a rat study with marginal results does not prove that cell phones cause cancer ...

No, a rat study with marginal results does not prove that cell phones cause cancer, no matter what Mother Jones and Consumer Reports say
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-a-rat-study-with-marginal-results-does-not-prove-that-cell-phones-cause-cancer-no-matter-what-mother-jones-and-consumer-reports-say/

"...

To be fair, NaturalNews includes Adams’ usual conspiracy-mongering about vaccines, GMOs, and the like, linking them all to “government coverups,” but when you are a mainstream publication like Consumer Reports or Mother Jones and your headlines and much of your text are not that far removed from something published on NaturalNews, you are doing it wrong. As Matthew Herper put it writing for Forbes about the reporting on this study, “Yesterday’s cell phone cancer scare scares me a little about the future of journalism.” In fact, if you look at some of the stories linked to above, you’ll note that many of them include notes at the end mentioning something like, “This article was updated to reflect criticism of the study’s conclusions by outside researchers.” That’s the press jumping first and being forced to backtrack under reasonable criticism. Unfortunately, none of them seem actually to make it very clear specifically how the stories were altered in response to criticism, which is bad.

...

Still, from the standpoint of basic science, specifically basic physics and biology, the likelihood that radio waves can cause cancer is incredibly unlikely, or, as I like to put it, not quite homeopathy-level implausible but damned implausible nonetheless. Indeed, from a biological standpoint, a strong link between cell phone use and brain cancer (or any other cancer) is not very plausible at all; in fact, it’s highly implausible. Cell phones do not emit ionizing radiation; they emit electromagnetic radiation in the microwave spectrum whose energy is far too low to cause the DNA damage that leads to mutations that lead to cancer. While it is possible that perhaps heating effects might contribute somehow to cancer, most cell phones, at least ones manufactured in the last decade or so, are low power radio transmitters. It is also necessary to acknowledge the possibility that there might be an as-yet-undiscovered biological mechanism by which low power radio waves can cause cancer, perhaps epigenetic or other, but the evidence there is very weak to nonexistent as well. Basically, based on what we know about carcinogenesis, a postulated link between cell phones and cancer is highly implausible.

In the absence of better basic science that nails down a heretofore-undiscovered potential biological mechanism by which exposure to radio waves could cause cancer, I have a hard time managing to muster any enthusiasm about recommending more studies than the ones that are already going on, particularly in light of various recent studies that we’ve examined that purport to find a link between cell phones and cancer but really do not, as described in these posts dating back to 2008, listed for your convenience if you want more in-depth information and discussion:

...

In other words, as a skeptic who’s probably the most open-minded (perhaps almost to the point of my brains falling out) to the claim that cell phones cause cancer, I still consider the claim, on basic science considerations alone, so incredibly implausible as to be an incredible, albeit not quite physically impossible, claim. I base this opinion on a preponderance of evidence that shows that brain cancer incidence is not increasing, inconsistent cell culture and animal studies that suffer from publication bias and when considered in the context of Bayesian prior plausibility are in fact negative, several epidemiological studies that failed to find a cell-phone cancer link, and the fact that the only epidemiological studies that claim to find a cell phone-cancer link have come from one group in Sweden whose principal investigator is known for being an expert witness in lawsuits against mobile phone companies.

..."


-------------------------------------

It's best to go to the link to get the full picture.

Here's another piece on this study:

Underwhelming Cell Phone Rat Study

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/underwhelming-cell-phone-rat-study/

-------------------------------------

Whether one agrees fully with the author or not, at the end of the day, I hope everyone sees how the media blew this story with unnecessary hyperbole, and a nearly complete lack of context.

42 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
No, a rat study with marginal results does not prove that cell phones cause cancer ... (Original Post) HuckleB Jun 2016 OP
But what of the rats StarTrombone Jun 2016 #1
Rats can't read warning labels Major Nikon Jun 2016 #6
Rats don't talk on cell phones meow2u3 Jun 2016 #17
Friggin' Luddites! HuckleB Jun 2016 #18
Good enough for the media to sensationalise. liberal N proud Jun 2016 #2
Unfortunately, that's part of our current knowledge/lack of knowledge problem. HuckleB Jun 2016 #3
And one of the more amusing things is that the full study won't be out for a few months... TreasonousBastard Jun 2016 #4
Exactly! HuckleB Jun 2016 #5
Sounds like someone's Sacred cow was attacked Ohioblue22 Jun 2016 #7
How is that? HuckleB Jun 2016 #8
Must have held a mobile phone to the cows ear. Bonx Jun 2016 #10
Ah, indeed. HuckleB Jun 2016 #20
Because no one said it was proof so you seem defensive. randome Jun 2016 #29
So you didn't bother to note the hyperbolic headlines. HuckleB Jun 2016 #31
Yeah, well, carnival barkers have to bark, I guess. randome Jun 2016 #32
Which is the point of the OP. HuckleB Jun 2016 #33
No doubt Major Nikon Jun 2016 #9
Still trying to figure out how radio waves are sex selective, or how they damage cells in the ... Humanist_Activist Jun 2016 #11
If you were subjected to a very high level of even non-ionizing radiation for 9 hours per day... Major Nikon Jun 2016 #12
That's easy to do. Go out in the sun. backscatter712 Jun 2016 #14
Which also exposes you to ionizing radiation, which is the biggest part of the problem Major Nikon Jun 2016 #16
Sorry but that's a disingenuous line of rebuttal. randome Jun 2016 #30
Even that seems unlikely, I mean, non-ionizing means its highly unlikely to interact with... Humanist_Activist Jun 2016 #15
The problem is, rats are severely prone to cancer already. JesterCS Jun 2016 #13
No wonder it wasn't peer reviewed. GeorgeGist Jun 2016 #19
I'm worried about rats using cell phones in the first place. NV Whino Jun 2016 #21
There is a massive increase in rat head injuries due to cell phone distractions. HuckleB Jun 2016 #22
There otta be a law. NV Whino Jun 2016 #23
It's the reason the big carriers are throttling bandwidth. bluesbassman Jun 2016 #40
Dang it! HuckleB Jun 2016 #41
Cell phones have been around for about 20 years alarimer Jun 2016 #24
As you know, I generally disagree with you, but on this, I agree. closeupready Jun 2016 #25
. HuckleB Jun 2016 #42
Anyway, how did they make such tiny cell phones? The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2016 #26
More importantly, what was their data plan and who was the carrier? randome Jun 2016 #35
Hopefully not Cricket. HuckleB Jun 2016 #37
We are constantly being bombarded by radio waves. immoderate Jun 2016 #27
Did they use human sized mobile phones or tiny rat sized mobile phones during the study? Ace Rothstein Jun 2016 #28
I have never understood this urban legend, so where is the harmful radiation supposed to come from? Rex Jun 2016 #34
As you note, plausibility is probably the biggest issue. HuckleB Jun 2016 #36
This topic has been around since cell phones, why is it taking them so long to find the source Rex Jun 2016 #38
No, no, ... not THAT! HuckleB Jun 2016 #39

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
4. And one of the more amusing things is that the full study won't be out for a few months...
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 02:14 PM
Jun 2016

so it's just the preliminary findings, which are doubtless out there to help get more funding, that caused all the ruckus.

Anyway, low energy or not, it's counterintuitive to think that cell phone radiation has no effects at all. Maybe it doesn't, but maybe it does-- we still don't know for sure.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
29. Because no one said it was proof so you seem defensive.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:41 PM
Jun 2016

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
32. Yeah, well, carnival barkers have to bark, I guess.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:46 PM
Jun 2016

They use very selective language to push that implication forward, that's for sure. But the study itself does not say cancer can be caused by cell phones.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
11. Still trying to figure out how radio waves are sex selective, or how they damage cells in the ...
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 02:37 PM
Jun 2016

first place.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
12. If you were subjected to a very high level of even non-ionizing radiation for 9 hours per day...
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 02:47 PM
Jun 2016

for every day of your life even including the time you were in the womb, then you might develop cancer from it.

If anything the study demonstrates just how safe cell phones really are.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
14. That's easy to do. Go out in the sun.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 02:52 PM
Jun 2016

Just stepping outside exposes you to a lot of non-ionizing, and a little bit of ionizing radiation from that big fusion reactor in the sky.

We seem to have somehow learned to live with it, even with the ionizing radiation that causes skin cancer. Assuming you use sunscreen, the sun exposes us to everything from radio to microwave to IR to visible EM radiation. Somehow, I think we'll pull through.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
30. Sorry but that's a disingenuous line of rebuttal.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:44 PM
Jun 2016

I don't necessarily think cell phones can cause cancer but your point is the same as that of Reagan back when he denied there was anything like climate change to worry about: "Trees put out more CO2 than humans." Remember that? But the point that was lost on him was that human activity contributes even MORE CO2 than already provided by nature.

Same thing with your argument. Just because the Sun puts out more non-ionizing radiation does not mean our exposing ourselves to more is meaningless.

Although I understand the point about non-ionizing radiation being, for the most part at least, harmless by its very definition. I'm just quibbling over the idea that a bulk source of something is not proof that more is automatically safe.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
15. Even that seems unlikely, I mean, non-ionizing means its highly unlikely to interact with...
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 02:54 PM
Jun 2016

any of the atoms in your body in any clinically significant way, unlike ionizing radiation which does so in various ways, especially in damaging DNA. I would hazard a guess that the chances of developing cancer from exposure to non-ionizing radiation is about as likely as developing cancer from exposure to neutrinos. Theoretically possible but difficult to trace.

JesterCS

(1,827 posts)
13. The problem is, rats are severely prone to cancer already.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 02:49 PM
Jun 2016

I've had 4 as pets, 3 died from cancer, 1 from old age.

GeorgeGist

(25,319 posts)
19. No wonder it wasn't peer reviewed.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 03:14 PM
Jun 2016

The 'irradiated rats' outlived the controls.

Plus for added dumbness, it cost $25M.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
22. There is a massive increase in rat head injuries due to cell phone distractions.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 03:47 PM
Jun 2016

.They keep bonking into brick walls. It's a rat society tragedy.

bluesbassman

(19,370 posts)
40. It's the reason the big carriers are throttling bandwidth.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 06:06 PM
Jun 2016

Rat bastards are all streaming Willard 24/7!

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
24. Cell phones have been around for about 20 years
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 04:59 PM
Jun 2016

If they caused cancer, you would think we would know by now. But possibly not, given how slowly some develop.

But yes, this one study purports to show the opposite of what we know so far: that non-ionizing radiation from cell phones does not cause cancer.

I respect Consumer Reports as a tester of consumer goods. As science reporters, I think they fell down on the job.

Mother Jones, however good on some political things, is so caught up in woo nonsense, I'm not surprised they fell for it.

I do know one thing, though, people fall for these breathless reports because they know jack-shit about science and how to evaluate a study. That is a skill we all need. I see smart people falling for nonsense every single day.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
25. As you know, I generally disagree with you, but on this, I agree.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:16 PM
Jun 2016

I'm someone who is marginally paranoid about the possible health risks posed by devices, and after doing my own simple research, I'm not convinced there is much risk from most modern cell phones, if any.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
35. More importantly, what was their data plan and who was the carrier?
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:49 PM
Jun 2016

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
37. Hopefully not Cricket.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:52 PM
Jun 2016

They'd probably eat the dang phones. Hmm. I wonder if the researchers looked into that.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
34. I have never understood this urban legend, so where is the harmful radiation supposed to come from?
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:48 PM
Jun 2016

Inside the phone? What is the source of this harmful radiation? No one ever really pins it down and saying radio waves are at fault is loony toons.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
36. As you note, plausibility is probably the biggest issue.
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:49 PM
Jun 2016

It's one of Gorski's main points in the piece, in fact.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
38. This topic has been around since cell phones, why is it taking them so long to find the source
Wed Jun 1, 2016, 05:54 PM
Jun 2016

of this harmful radiation? Wait I know...cell phone are...wait for it (been a while)...devices from...drumroll...
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