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smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 12:38 PM Jun 2016

European churches say growing flock of Muslim refugees are converting

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/05/european-churches-growing-flock-muslim-refugees-converting-christianity

"A growing number of Muslim refugees in Europe are converting to Christianity, according to churches, which have conducted mass baptisms in some places.

Reliable data on conversions is not available but anecdotal evidence suggests a pattern of rising church attendance by Muslims who have fled conflict, repression and economic hardship in countries across the Middle East and central Asia.

Complex factors behind the trend include heartfelt faith in a new religion, gratitude to Christian groups offering support during perilous and frightening journeys, and an expectation that conversion may aid asylum applications.

At Trinity church in the Berlin suburb of Steglitz, the congregation has grown from 150 two years ago to almost 700, swollen by Muslim converts, according to Pastor Gottfried Martens. Earlier this year, churches in Berlin and Hamburg reportedly held mass conversions for asylum seekers at municipal swimming pools."

Thought this was very interesting.
51 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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European churches say growing flock of Muslim refugees are converting (Original Post) smirkymonkey Jun 2016 OP
Kick. smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #1
Very Interesting libodem Jun 2016 #2
I kind of feel like a drastic change like that would take more introspection Bradical79 Jun 2016 #4
True Story libodem Jun 2016 #11
Sad. Trading one form of superstition for another one does not lead closeupready Jun 2016 #3
Proving, again, that religion is really about access to resources, not deities or dogma. lindysalsagal Jun 2016 #5
maybe sometimes Mosby Jun 2016 #7
Being in a nation where they are allowed to learn about Jesus and leave Islam, makes the difference. braddy Jun 2016 #6
This. EL34x4 Jun 2016 #10
Superstition a-la-carte. How wonderful! N/t. lindysalsagal Jun 2016 #18
Hell of a lot better GulfCoast66 Jun 2016 #20
They probably already know, since Jesus is mentioned in the Koran by name 93 times . . . hatrack Jun 2016 #22
No, they don't know about Jesus, they don't learn about him reading Mohammed's Koran. braddy Jun 2016 #24
Oh, OK, got it. hatrack Jun 2016 #30
"..allowed to learn about Jesus and leave Islam," Angel Martin Jun 2016 #34
Interesting that you mention (claim?) that a Muslim won't be executed for becoming A Christian braddy Jun 2016 #35
i guess I wasn't clear Angel Martin Jun 2016 #36
Sorry that I misunderstood you.Your post is correct and I read it wrong. braddy Jun 2016 #43
Wait, what? I thought Obama wanted to convert everyone here to Islam and impose Sharia Law? madinmaryland Jun 2016 #8
You're missing class at the Federal Madrasa! hatrack Jun 2016 #23
Thanks for posting this. I had not heard of this before. I wonder pampango Jun 2016 #9
I am thinking this may help things a bit. smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #16
It is now mainstream in europe to be resistant to immigrants in general. Quantess Jun 2016 #19
If true the far-right must be happy. They have been anti-immigrant for a long time. pampango Jun 2016 #25
The RW nationalists are gaining popularity, and the more mainstream parties are finally noticing Quantess Jun 2016 #37
RW populists are gaining in Europe and the US. Much of the left is fighting their anti-refugee pampango Jun 2016 #42
Very interesting. If true it will mean assimilation and that jwirr Jun 2016 #12
Now that's interesting treestar Jun 2016 #13
It's not that they can't... TipTok Jun 2016 #15
One superstition for another... TipTok Jun 2016 #14
At least they are trying to assimilate. smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #46
It's not bad... TipTok Jun 2016 #48
Or one imaginary national border for another. LanternWaste Jul 2016 #49
Bored? TipTok Jul 2016 #50
Well - the discos are full too. They didn't have the freedom to do this in most countries of origin Yo_Mama Jun 2016 #17
It wasn't always so bad... Democrats Ascendant Jun 2016 #28
Funny you should mention this Chitown Kev Jun 2016 #38
There is hope. smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #47
I hope they find happiness in their new churches, Ilsa Jun 2016 #21
I wish them all the best and offer them my prayers and best wishes in their new faith. hrmjustin Jun 2016 #26
Interesting, but I wonder.... Democrats Ascendant Jun 2016 #27
And I Bet The Absence Of Heavily-Armed Bullyboys Helped The Process Vogon_Glory Jun 2016 #29
Think for yourself, people. Stop following manipulators NightWatcher Jun 2016 #31
Looking at it cynically, a conversion would cement their refugee status daleo Jun 2016 #32
Good point! smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #41
Uh oh ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2016 #33
I think I can guess who that is. smirkymonkey Jun 2016 #40
Europe will change because Christianity stinks! ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2016 #44
May I point out that there are large Christian communities in Syria Ghost Dog Jun 2016 #39
the new kids at the new school want to fit in Really that simple dembotoz Jun 2016 #45
Probably 2 big reasons Warpy Jul 2016 #51
 

Bradical79

(4,490 posts)
4. I kind of feel like a drastic change like that would take more introspection
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 01:42 PM
Jun 2016

Church's organization give you an instant welcoming community that probably help alot when chased from your home by murderous lunatics. It's still Abrhamaic and familiar in some ways, so I think it would be an easier transition too. The mental strain of fleeing ISIS probably isn't too conductive to contemplating the type of change in worldview eliminating deities brings.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
3. Sad. Trading one form of superstition for another one does not lead
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 01:36 PM
Jun 2016

people to truth and light, but it's a free world - they can do whatever they want. If it makes their assimilation experience easier or better for their children, fine with me.

lindysalsagal

(20,440 posts)
5. Proving, again, that religion is really about access to resources, not deities or dogma.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 01:50 PM
Jun 2016

And it always has been. People believe in filling their stomachs, security, and hopefulness, not gods.

Mosby

(16,168 posts)
7. maybe sometimes
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 04:07 PM
Jun 2016

But the copts, chaldeans, druze and others have greatly suffered because of their beliefs and continue to do so.

 

EL34x4

(2,003 posts)
10. This.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 04:16 PM
Jun 2016

In the Western world, you are allowed to try out as many different religions as you like, stick with the one you like best, or none at all if you prefer. This is not the case in Muslim countries.

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
20. Hell of a lot better
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:32 PM
Jun 2016

Than if you do not believe 'this' superstition we will kill you. Which is what most of these folk are fleeing.

Angel Martin

(942 posts)
34. "..allowed to learn about Jesus and leave Islam,"
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 11:06 PM
Jun 2016

actually, that is allowed to leave Islam and not be executed for apostasy

 

braddy

(3,585 posts)
35. Interesting that you mention (claim?) that a Muslim won't be executed for becoming A Christian
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 11:12 PM
Jun 2016

in the countries they are fleeing from.

I think my original post holds up.

Angel Martin

(942 posts)
36. i guess I wasn't clear
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 02:29 AM
Jun 2016

my point was that in many of the countries they are fleeing, they do face the death penalty for renouncing Islam and converting to something else

in Germany, they don't face death for converting, hence more do.

One thing that does still happen, converts are often shunned by their families after conversion. I attend anglican churches in two different cities, and we have had muslim converts that have been rejected by their families in both congregations.

madinmaryland

(64,920 posts)
8. Wait, what? I thought Obama wanted to convert everyone here to Islam and impose Sharia Law?
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 04:11 PM
Jun 2016

Am I missing something??

pampango

(24,692 posts)
9. Thanks for posting this. I had not heard of this before. I wonder
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 04:12 PM
Jun 2016

if the far-right will become more accepting of refugees if they are not 'scary Muslims'. Probably not.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
19. It is now mainstream in europe to be resistant to immigrants in general.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:19 PM
Jun 2016

The whole migrant crisis has been a disaster in europe.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
25. If true the far-right must be happy. They have been anti-immigrant for a long time.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:08 PM
Jun 2016

Some on the left are still supporting refugees and immigrants.

Germany: 400+ arrested as right and left wing protesters clash; political tensions heat up

Hundreds of left-wing protesters have clashed with people attending a far-right party conference in the German city of Stuttgart.

Around 1,000 officers were deployed at the Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) party conference, as 400 arrests were made

Footage on social media showed the protesters shouting slogans such as: "Keep refugees, drive Nazis away!"

AfD, which wants to ban the burqa and outlaw minarets in Germany, is expected to announce that it is explicitly anti-Islamic during the meeting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/alternative-fur-deutschland-conference-protesters-germany-arrested-a7007971.html

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
37. The RW nationalists are gaining popularity, and the more mainstream parties are finally noticing
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 04:22 AM
Jun 2016

which way the wind is blowing. The mainstream politicians that want to keep their jobs have figured out that they shouldn't appear too eager to accept more asylum seekers or immigrants in general.

Whether you agree or not, this is the situation all over europe.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
42. RW populists are gaining in Europe and the US. Much of the left is fighting their anti-refugee
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 07:31 AM
Jun 2016

policies. You are right, mainstream politicians will bend whichever way they think the political wind is blowing and it is blowing to the right at the moment.

In March's Germany provincial election, the RW populist party AfD got almost 1/4 of the vote in one province.

The populist Alternative for Germany, which focused its campaign on opposition to Ms. Merkel’s migrant policy, won nearly a quarter of the vote in the eastern state of Saxony-Anhalt. The result—several percentage points higher than recent polls had suggested—represents the party’s best total in a regional election since its founding three years ago. “We have a very clear position on refugee policy: We don’t want to take in any refugees,” AfD deputy chairman Alexander Gauland said on German television. “All who voted for us stand behind this policy.”

But the results laid bare the extent to which the migration crisis has polarized German society. Left-of-center proponents of a welcoming refugee policy also recorded wins Sunday, even as Ms. Merkel’s conservatives suffered. Ms. Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union lost two close races, falling to the center-left Greens in Baden-Württemberg and the center-left Social Democrats in Rhineland-Palatinate.

In the traditionally conservative state of Baden-Württemberg, one of Germany’s economic powerhouses, the refugee-friendly Greens surged to first place behind their popular incumbent premier, Winfried Kretschmann. Ms. Merkel’s CDU failed to win first place in the southwestern state for the first time since World War II. The AfD, meanwhile, won 15%—the best postwar result for a populist or far-right party in the state.

Despite Sunday’s setbacks, Ms. Merkel remains in a relatively strong position at home. Her approval rating stands at 54%, a decline from 67% last summer but still high compared with the leaders of many other European democracies. ... In Sunday’s exit polls, a majority of voters in Baden-Württemberg and Rhineland-Palatinate said Ms. Merkel was doing a good job handling migration.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germans-head-to-polls-in-test-of-merkels-refugee-policies-1457857810

The anti-immigrant far-right is rising in Europe and in the US. The question is how long their rise continues and what, if anything, reverses it. Many politicians in the middle will 'triangulate' their migrant policies to appease the right. We can hope that most on the left will not but who knows.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
12. Very interesting. If true it will mean assimilation and that
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 04:43 PM
Jun 2016

may help them but I have a story that makes me kind of doubt this.

There is a hill over looking a the village of Lame Deer Montana. The Natives in this village on the reservation tell the story about the Catholic church priests who would stand on the top of the hill and baptize the whole village and claim that the people were all now Christians. So I am wondering if this is just the church practicing and age old baptism or if they are really getting people to accept what they teach.

Also many of the refugees may already been Christian since the countries of the ME are none to friendly to that religion.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
46. At least they are trying to assimilate.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 07:46 PM
Jun 2016

I would think that is a hopeful sign. I'm pretty anti-religious on the whole, but any effort made to assimilate is a good sign, I think.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
48. It's not bad...
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 09:35 PM
Jun 2016

... But it's a drop in the ocean.

It's also like swapping out terminal cancer for HIV.

Better but still bad....

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
49. Or one imaginary national border for another.
Wed Jul 27, 2016, 04:02 PM
Jul 2016

Or one imaginary national border for another.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other-- as none exist anywhere but our little imaginations, Horatio.

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
17. Well - the discos are full too. They didn't have the freedom to do this in most countries of origin
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:07 PM
Jun 2016

It's natural that the new immigrants would explore their new freedoms.

Unfortunately, many immigrants have come from countries in which they didn't have a lot of social, cultural and religious options.

28. It wasn't always so bad...
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:21 PM
Jun 2016

I went to a lot of dance clubs in Syria and Lebanon when I made my way through about a decade ago.
Lots of young people doing as they will do!!

Chitown Kev

(2,197 posts)
38. Funny you should mention this
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 05:17 AM
Jun 2016

Let me find this story that I read about 2 months ago.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Germany-Berlin-Nightclubs-Mobilize-to-Help-Refugees-20160515-0040.html

The oldest gay nightclub in Berlin held the second edition of its Refugees Welcome party Sunday, part of a broader initiative in the city's nightlife community to raise money for pro-refugee organizations.

“Many Syrian and Arab refugees reportedly visit the nightclub regularly,” Lcavaliero, the club's art director, told TRAX magazine. He added he could not tell how the refugees would perceive support from the gay community, but emphasized that the fight against homophobia could not be split from the fight against racism.

“I could meet a DJ from Syria who ran away because of his sexual orientation. There were [gay] parties there, it can be surprising but I don't believe it would be a shock for them [refugees],” he added.
 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
47. There is hope.
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 07:48 PM
Jun 2016

I suspect there are a lot of gay immigrants and refugees that would like to live their lives without fear from the religious henchmen.

Ilsa

(61,675 posts)
21. I hope they find happiness in their new churches,
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 09:44 PM
Jun 2016

homes, beliefs. I'm hoping they learn to embrace other new cultural ideas, also.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
26. I wish them all the best and offer them my prayers and best wishes in their new faith.
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:12 PM
Jun 2016

My prayers and good thoughts go out to all the regugees of this crisid regardless of wjat they believe.

27. Interesting, but I wonder....
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:18 PM
Jun 2016

Many Syrians are actually Christians already, so maybe there's some people confusing Arab = Muslim. There could also be some switching between the various Christian denominations. Still, the report is interesting.

Vogon_Glory

(9,085 posts)
29. And I Bet The Absence Of Heavily-Armed Bullyboys Helped The Process
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:35 PM
Jun 2016

i betcha that one of the factors that inspired the sincere converts was the relative shortage of heavily-armed strutting goons using religion as an excuse to be hateful to their neighbors.

daleo

(21,317 posts)
32. Looking at it cynically, a conversion would cement their refugee status
Sun Jun 5, 2016, 10:59 PM
Jun 2016

ISIS kills apostates from Islam, so converts have an excellent justification for seeking refugee status in Europe. Sending them back now, could be a death sentence. From a legal standpoint, conversion is a smart move.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
41. Good point!
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 06:04 AM
Jun 2016

I think the article mentions that not all the converts might be sincere, but I didn't think about that as a reason.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
44. Europe will change because Christianity stinks!
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 02:56 PM
Jun 2016

But I support personal choices of religion.....blah blah blah

 

Ghost Dog

(16,881 posts)
39. May I point out that there are large Christian communities in Syria
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 05:24 AM
Jun 2016

and thereabouts, members of which will be among refugees in Anatolia and in Europe seeking asylum?

A factor that might impact certain church attendance figures.

The mooted swimming pool "mass conversations" would surely have been documented and published somewhere...

dembotoz

(16,739 posts)
45. the new kids at the new school want to fit in Really that simple
Mon Jun 6, 2016, 03:50 PM
Jun 2016

if you look and dress like everyone else you are treated better

its not rocket science or theology....its peer pressure just like high school

this is why i always kinda admire folks who keep the traditional clothing
it takes guts

Warpy

(110,909 posts)
51. Probably 2 big reasons
Wed Jul 27, 2016, 04:14 PM
Jul 2016

First, the ones who have experienced the harsh Wahab reign of ISIL have likely lost a lot of faith in Islam. Second, they are in a new country and have seen enough in the old one that they never want to return, so they're adopting all the trappings of that new country as fast as they can. This phenomenon was also seen in the Irish fleeing the potato famine.

I know a few Muslims in this country who converted, mostly because it was easier on their kids. They still suppress a shudder when they look at the pork in the supermarket.

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