Louisiana's new voucher program gives $$ to religious "schools" without facilities or teachers

[HiPointDem]

New Living Word School in Ruston has been approved by the Louisiana Department of Education to accept 315 students as part of the state’s scholarship program, but the school doesn’t currently have the facilities, computers or teachers in place to accommodate that many students.

State education officials wouldn’t know that because site visits aren’t a part of the approval process... The school... applied for and was granted approval for an additional 315 students... the largest number of available seats for any single school in the state. The next largest number of available seats at a single school is 214 at The Upperroom Bible Church Academy in Orleans.

According to the school’s application, the cost per student for the next school year will be $8,500, which is $32 less that the state’s maximum allowable reimbursable tuition... If New Living Word meets its goal of 315 new students, it would receive almost $2.7 million in Minimum Foundation Program money for those new students.

Baldwin said students in classes are given primary instruction by watching a DVD, which he calls a “technology teacher,” while a classroom teacher manages the class, reviews homework, answers questions and gives assignments.

http://www.thenewsstar.com/article/20120525/NEWS01/120525022/School-willing-take-315-students-through-vouchers-lacks-building-computers


Louisiana's bold bid to privatize schools

Louisiana is embarking on the nation's boldest experiment in privatizing public education, with the state preparing to shift tens of millions in tax dollars out of the public schools to pay private industry, businesses owners and church pastors to educate children...Every time a student receives a voucher of either type, his local public school will lose a chunk of state funding.

Of the plans so far put forward, Louisiana's plan is by far the broadest. This month, eligible families, including those with incomes nearing $60,000 a year, are submitting applications for vouchers to state-approved private schools. That list includes some of the most prestigious schools in the state... The top schools, however, have just a handful of slots open...As elsewhere, they will be picked in a lottery.

The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition. The Upperroom Bible Church Academy in New Orleans, a bunker-like building with no windows or playground, also has plenty of slots open...

At Eternity Christian Academy in Westlake, pastor-turned-principal Marie Carrier hopes to secure extra space to enroll 135 voucher students...Her first- through eighth-grade students sit in cubicles for much of the day and move at their own pace through Christian workbooks, such as a beginning science text that explains "what God made" on each of the six days of creation...

In general, (Superintendant of Education) White said he will leave it to principals to be sure their curriculum covers all subjects kids need and leave it to parents to judge the quality of each private school on the list...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/01/us-education-vouchers-idUSL1E8H10AG20120601


What happens when money is channeled into religion? It gives it a bigger power base.

These schools charge tuition, which used to be paid for by parents, and was less than the cost per pupil at public schools. They are now raising tuitions to be comparable to public school cost per pupil so they can get more money. So much for the cost argument.

Do you think the extra money is going to go into the kids?

[HiPointDem]

1. Another post about the corruption inherent in the so-called "education reform" movement that

sank to the back pages.

Kicking it.

[MH1]

2. Voucher programs that include religious schools violate the First Amendment, in my opinion

I'm not a lawyer do I don't know how they get away with it.

I have no kids in school, but have no problem with paying for PUBLIC schools that teach reading, writing, arithmetic, science, music, art, and so forth .... the stuff I learned in my public school when I was growing up.

I have a MASSIVE problem with my taxes paying for religious education. ANY religious education. That said, I really wish someone would start a Buddhist or Wiccan school in that area, then sue when they are unfairly denied funding.

[Logical]

13. +1000, but religion is untouchable in this country. n-t

[revolution breeze]

3. I live in Louisiana

and I am so thankful for the voucher program and have applied for a voucher for my daughter so she can attend a Catholic school. Why? Our school district has one of the highest tax rates in the state and our school still fails to meet state standards on the LEAP and iLEAP. If I could use the voucher to send her to a public school on the other side of the parish where test scores are higher, I would do that. The school she will be attending is a strong track record of successful graduates. I was ready to enroll her two years ago when I lost my job due to illness. We are getting by with only my husband working, but just getting by. My daughter deserves an education that our public schools are just not offering! I would home school her, but due to my health I am unable to do this adequately. I spend most days that I am feeling well volunteering at her school because teachers are so strapped for resources.

[onethatcares]

5. did you ever think

that the money taken out of the public school system and sent to privatized voucher schools are the problem?

You cannot expect teachers to work for nothing or next to nothing which seems to be the m.o. of the move to

to create voucher programs.

The OP even shows what happens with the money, no kids, no classes, no buildings. WHERE DOES THE MONEY GO?

[revolution breeze]

18. I don't fault the teachers

I blame the system. School A has a new computer network, wifi and issued laptops with textbooks loaded on them. School B five miles away does not have enough textbooks for all the students and if you don't have a computer at home, you are screwed. Children wait in line at the library (take a number, we will call you when it is your turn). We have a lot of "transient" children (as the principal calls them), parents who are in the district following jobs that may or may not last the entire school year, and they are afraid if we had laptops, they might not make it back to the school when the family leaves. This was actually said by a school board member at a regular meeting open to the public. Do you know how many parents attend these meetings? Twenty is considered to be a huge turnout! I can't make my neighbors be more involved in the public school district, I can't do anymore than I am doing, so first chance we get, she is out of the system

[MH1]

6. Did you read the article in the op, and understand why it's an abuse?

Do you understand why a person would NOT want their tax dollars paying for schools run by any religious organization, but more than that, AN ORGANIZATION THAT PROTECTS PEDOPHILES AND DISCRIMINATES AGAINST WOMEN??

I am sorry you don't see a better out for your daughter's education. I would get out of that place as fast as I could if I were you. But at least make sure she does her math homework and reads books. If she does those two things she'll be better off than a whole lot of kids whose parents don't care enough to see to that - no matter what school she is in. And if she doesn't do those two things, it is NOT the school's fault.

[revolution breeze]

12. I am a very hands on parent

My daughter started reading when she was three (thank you older daughters) and knew basic addition and subtraction before she started kindergarten. I work with her every single day. But her teachers are limited due to the resources available to them and this includes parental involvement. Out of a class of thirty children (way too many children in one class), we have two parent volunteers who come into the class to read with children and assist as much as we can.

I know this system will probably be mis-used by so many people. I saw so many cases of fraud here after Katrina. The Catholic school is my only option and if I get this voucher, I am doing what is best for my daughter.

[MattBaggins]

65. You should do what is best for your daughter

but without tax payer money. Why should I have to give money to the Catholic Church via others kids when I am completely opposed to their teachings? I do not want to give money to that corrupt organization that will not give equal rights to women or homosexuals.

[revolution breeze]

69. Why should you give money

to a public school where half of the sixth graders do not know their multiplication tables? where 10 kids are supposed to "share" a dissected frog? fourth graders are reading Dr. Seuss books my daughter read when she was 5? You are gving money to a corrupt system that is not giving children what they need to succeed. Realize you are advocating allowing the children to grow up and to be forced to accept minimum wage jobs because they do not have the education necessary to go to college!

[MattBaggins]

75. Completely wrong

I am all for improving schools but that does not equate to giving my money to a corrupt organization that refuses to change with times and believes that women are second class citizens. At the end of the day we all have a say in the public school system. We have no such say in private mythology schools.

You should have every right to send your daughter to that school if you want; just with your own money.

[revolution breeze]

77. The system is broken, no one watch to fix it

or wants it to be fixed. However, the state of Louisiana has now given me the chance to do something I cannot afford to do. So, I am taking advantage of it. If the people of Louisiana decide this is not fair and vote to repeal this program, I will deal with that when the time comes. Perhaps a scholarship to the Catholic school based on financial need (they issue ten each year, we were number eleven on the list last year).

[SickOfTheOnePct]

78. If it's available and it will better for your daughter, you should do it

And you shouldn't be made to feel guilty about doing so.

[MattBaggins]

81. Should she feel guilty about taking money from the local system

and forcing her neighbors to give money to a corrupt church they find repulsive?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

82. Nope, not if it is better for her child

She isn't the one that implemented the voucher system in Louisiana. She may well be like me, i.e., would prefer to see all vouchers banned. However, if a voucher is available, should she leave her child in a failing school rather than send her to a school where she can learn to her potential?

My tax dollars, both at the state and federal level, are spent on all sorts of things that I don't like, but that's the price of being a taxpayer - we don't always get to choose how every penny will be spent.

If the people of Louisiana are against vouchers, then they should fight to end them. But if they are available, I'm not going to condemn people for using them in order to obtain a better education for their children.

[revolution breeze]

83. Louisiana

Under Napoleonic law, which was the basis of all of Louisiana laws, did not allow anyone to own property unless the belonged to the Catholic church. Blue laws were in full effect until the 1990s. And I am probably the only non-Catholic in my subdivision. That is why this law passed with little opposition.

[revolution breeze]

85. How would you feel

if I was talking about a non-Catholic school? As I have said, if I could send my daughter to a PUBLIC school outside of my area, still in the SAME DISTRICT with better facilites and fewer teacher:student ratio, I would. But this is not allowed under the current system. I can sell my house and move across the parish (in this market? sure!!!!), use a friend's address to enroll her in a different school (until I get caught), or apply for a voucher and send her to a Catholic school.

[MattBaggins]

86. yes you are stuck between a rock and a hard place

with no choice but to choose an option designed to exacerbate the situation. That voucher system is designed to destroy the public system and when that happens what will those kids do? It is going to get even worse and that is the intention. The catholic school will have to take more and more students taking you right back to square one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. +1

[revolution breeze]

91. Or the public school system will get so bad

that they will have to change it. But the Catholic school has the option to decline vouchers once they are at capacity. They send away children each year whose parents are able and willing to pay tuition. Maybe some forward thinking organization will come in and start a secular based private school system. Maybe the Baptist or Methodists who send their kids to the Catholic schools will decide to open a school. All I care about is my daughter does not end up at Crescent City School of Gaming and Bartending because she does not have the skills to get into college.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

9. You shouldn't feel bad about what doing what is best for your child

I'm not a fan of vouchers, however, if it's offered and your child can get a better education by using them, then more power to you. You shouldn't have to sacrifice your child's education and possibly her future on the altar of a principle if there is a better option available to you.

[MightyOkie]

88. Very well said.

I favor competition since I believe it breeds improvement and innovation. Public schools largely have a monopoly on educating our young, and given the horrific standing we have in the world re: our education, competition might help.

As far as religious influence goes, I sense there is going to be some real changes coming from our courts governing its role in schools and other government institutions. And it's not going to be pleasant.

[Logical]

15. You realize the voucher system is hurting the public schools you are complaining about???

[revolution breeze]

35. Yes I do.

But until other parents realize the status quo is not good enough, I am tired of bailing this sinking ship with a seive. If they would let me use the voucher for another public school on the other side of the parish (county), I would do that. But this isn't an option.

[KamaAina]

55. I assume that this school has classrooms, teachers, and other amenities

that the scam artists in Ruston do not. If the scammers went away, there'd be more money left for legitimate schools, maybe even (gasp!) public ones.

[Reader Rabbit]

4. Hell, they should give the money to me.

I could sit kids in front of a TV and have 'em watch a DVD just as well as those guys could.

[KansDem]

23. I'm with you!

I'll get a single wide trailer, some Apple IIes, and educational programs on those 5.25 inch floppies that teach readin', writing', and 'rithmetic, and open "The KansDem AKademy!"

Now, who do I contact to get this money?

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. I'll help you!

Forget about the trailer. We can use your basement.

[KansDem]

33. I haven't got a basement, just a crawl space...

But I can clean out the garage! I don't park the car in there anyway!


We can take turns being the principal. But what the hell, why not "President of the Academy." Or, "Chancellor?" Something that will really look good on the academy letterhead and will pull in the big bucks.

We'll have to put in a Port-A-John, since I wouldn't want the kids traipsing through my house...

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. I have a huge basement. We can have TWO campuses!

There's plenty of funding to pay for buses to transport the kids back and forth.

[OriginalGeek]

98. Hell no!

you make the students clean out the garage! Call it an elective! Advanced Newtery.

[KansDem]

99. I like the way you think!

http://www.mediaite.com/online/newt-gingrich-tells-georgetown-student-and-disgruntled-former-janitor-work-has-inherent-dignity/

I'll clear it with Chancellor proud2BlibKansan but would you consider becoming a part of our academy team as Dean of Academic Affairs?

[OriginalGeek]

100. I'm in!

There will be field trips to plant, tend and harvest my garden among other things. Oh, I have a couple sheds that need cleaning too.
Get your sheds and gardens and garages into the syllabus too. I'll need a list. How's your car looking? I will work on getting a Turtle Wax sponsorship for the Detailing Club.

[marmar]

7. Gee, this couldn't be another scheme to transfer public wealth to private hands, could it?

Of course not. Not in 'Murka.

[L. Coyote]

20. NO, this transfers money to Jesus and his ministry so they can brainwash children

for the greater good

[DefenseLawyer]

76. It's all about the benjamins

the brainwashing is just a little lagnaippe, as they say in Nawlins.

[AJTheMan]

8. I think this is a great plan to give parents more options for their children.

If I had a child who were living in a failing school district, I wouldn't mind sending him or her to a private school so that they can get the best education possible. Not to mention that this legislation ends, or at least alters, teacher tenure.

[HiPointDem]

11. I think this is a great plan to promote more graft, fraud & corruption, & failure.

[revolution breeze]

14. I see you have been to New Orleans

Where graft, fraud, fraud and corruption has been a staple for 300 years.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. And continuing that is a solution how?

[revolution breeze]

34. It isn't.

But by keeping the education system in this state so poor, they never empower the population to make a change. So, I remove my daughter from this pool, she gets the education she needs to get away from here. If it were not for aging family members, I would have never returned. After being married to a career sailor, it was deemed my "turn" when he retired (also when my grandmother and mothers health took a nosedive). My sister left them alone, my mother unable to walk due to MS and my grandmother with severe dementia, alone in a house damaged by Katrina.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. I understand it won't be easy

but someone has to stand up and work to change the system. I know several groups of teachers in LA are doing just that. They understand that religious schools that are already overcrowded and can't handle a new influx of students are not the answer.

[revolution breeze]

59. Here is the mentality I am working with.....

The school's mascot is the Blue Devil, has been since 1968. When I was a teen, there were always parents griping at every scool board meeting that we need to change the name because it was offensive. Now, I am adult and there are parents griping about the fact the mascot is still the Blue Devil. Even though we have had a huge influx of different people and cultures, this is still the most discussed issue at board meetings when asked for parent comment. Not the fact that we are still trying to rebuild the library we lost in 1995, not the fact that classrooms are way overcrowded, the F***** Blue Devil.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. Why is that offensive?

[revolution breeze]

70. It represents evil

I live in the Bible Belt, if you are not Catholic or Baptist, you are definately in the minority.

[Logical]

16. And then you have less money for public schools and then the GOP got just what they wanted. And....

sounds like you are on board with the plan.

[JoePhilly]

17. Cool ... more creationist kids with no real science background!!!

[SickOfTheOnePct]

19. Not all religious schools teach creationism

My oldest daughter is starting college at a major university in the fall, majoring in biochemistry. No way she could have done that without a firm foundation in science, and she was in Catholic schools for K-12.

[JoePhilly]

40. And I graduated from a Jesuit University. By choice.

When you send a kid to a religious school, they are REQUIRED to take classes in religion, usually the religion of the school.

You sent your daughter to a Catholic school K-12. I'm going to guess you are a Catholic. And while there, she was required to take classes in religion, probably Roman Catholicism.

And what you are saying is that non-Catholics should be willing to take mandatory classes in Catholicism if the only option they have is a voucher for the local Catholic schools.

Now imagine that you, a Catholic, live in an area where there are no Catholic schools to send your catholic child to. Your only choices are schools run by evangelical Baptists, who believe that elements of their religious view point belong in EVERY class (which they do), not just a few mandatory religious classes.

Or take it further ... you live in an area in Michigan where there are no local Christin schools, only schools run by Muslims. You can get a voucher to send your kids to those, but your child will learn about Islam and Shria law, perhaps be required to pray Islamic prayers 5 times a day, or at least at the normal prayer times while they are at school. Still ok with it?

This isn't just about the many religious schools that will skew science education, its about requiring kids to have religion injected into their school day, even if the religion in question is a religion to which the child does not believe. And using tax dollars to do it.

Many Christians in this country think because we are a majority Christian nation, such possibilities don't matter. But as soon as Baptist kids are being taught to listen to the Pope, and Catholic kids are being taught that the only path to salvation is to be "born again", many will be too myopic to get it.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

42. Yes, both schools required that all students take religion classes and attend the weekly school Mass

Not like it was hidden from anyone - it's right there in the application, and the principals at both schools they attended spoke at length about the requirement at orientation. As we are Catholic, no big deal. Neither school discriminates on the basis of religion for admission purposes, and the K-8 school was particularly diverse - children from the full range of socio-economic and religious backgrounds, including one Jewish child, three Muslim children and a dozen or so from Protestant denominations.

But I've never heard of a voucher program that requires the student attend a Catholic school or even a religious school in order to use the voucher. Each parent that is utilizing a voucher to attend a religious school of any stripe needs to determine whether or not the better education they are seeking is worth the exposure their child will have to religious practices/values that may not match their own. If it isn't a trade off they are willing to make, then no one is forcing them to do so.

But if a parent does decide to send their child to a religious school, and they know upfront what the religious requirements are, then voucher or no voucher, they should expect to abide by those rules.

As I've already said, I support elimination of all vouchers, but until that happens, I'm not going to criticize parents that use them in order to seek a better education and future for their children.

[JoePhilly]

46. If the area where you live has private schools of only one

religious affiliation, and the public schools are "bad", then in reality the parent has no choice.

If you don't feel comfortable sending your child to a school of a particular religion, then you are stuck. Meanwhile, your neighbor, who is a member of that religion, does have have a real choice.

In reality, what these programs will do is give a tax break to Catholics who send their kids to the local catholic school, where they were going to send them anyway.

Non-Catholics in that same area will get no such tax break if there are no alternatives. And that is the reality today. In Philly, if you want to send your kid to a Catholic school, no problem, they are everywhere. If you are Jewish, good luck ... unless your willing to send your kid to the Catholic school ... which should be a very pleasant experience for those 5 Jewish kids.

The only people using the voucher will be those sending their kids to religious schools already. Poor families won't be able to use the vouchers, not for religious reasons, but because the vouchers won't cover all the costs.

And so, we'll pull money out of public education and give it to the families who are sending their kids to private religious schools. And families who are not of those religions can ether join, or watch the public schools collapse.

Last point ... those private religious schools will be giving priority admittance to those who are already members of the parish in good standing. If you aren't a member of the parish (or other local religious group), you will drop to the bottom of the admit list.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. +1

[SickOfTheOnePct]

52. I'm not seeing where the supposed tax break comes in, but maybe I'm missing something

I've said before and I'll say again, I would be thrilled if vouchers were outlawed tomorrow. However, until they are, I'm not going to criticize parents for doing what they believe is in the best interest of their child or children. I feel terrible for parents that are stuck in the situation you describe, i.e., only religious schools that they aren't comfortable with and under-performing public schools. But I still won't criticize parents that are able to utilize vouchers when they choose to do so.

As for your last paragraph, I can't speak to how it works in other areas, but in the K-8 school our daughters attended, priority for admittance was 1) children, including siblings, already attending the school, regardless of religion, 2) parish members priority during the month of February 3) all others, regardless of religion.

The tuition structure was tiered, with in-parish at the lowest rate (all military members received in-parish rates), Catholic at the next lowest rate and non-Catholic at the highest rate. Tuition assistance was needs-based, regardless of religion, and approximately 35% of the students in the school received some level of financial aid, from as little as $50/month up to and including free tuition (average of $500/month when all tiers were taken into account).

[JoePhilly]

56. The voucher is basically a tax refund.

You pay taxes, and then you get a voucher if you send your child to a non-public school. A person sending their child to a public school gets no such refund, no voucher.

And your last paragraphs appear to agree with my point about admittance priority. Let's say I'm the parent of a Jewish kid in an area with only Catholic private schools. My child is at the bottom of the admittance list, and even if they do get accepted, I have to pay more, which makes it even more likely that I won't be able to use the voucher because of the total cost.

All of this means that parents of religious kids get a tax benefit above that of the non-religious. The entire program creates a subsidy for religious schools, while taking the tax money out of public schools.

[L. Coyote]

21. Never mind the failing school, .... just take more money away from it to solve the problem

right

[surrealAmerican]

32. Right, because private schools ...

... never fail to provide a better education, even when their facilities don't exist, their "teachers" are DVDs, their curriculum is thinly veiled proselytizing, and the state doesn't hold them to any standards at all.

[Catherina]

62. Exactly the point I was going to make

There are private schools and their are these new *private* schools like The Upperroom Bible Church Academy where you get DVD "technology teachers". That's a categorical fail.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. Because we all know tenure is the problem.

[HiPointDem]

10. Another thread full of Democrats cheering for the unity of church & state.

[siligut]

22. Why do you believe they are Democrats?

They don't sound like Democrats to me. Really it is just a few loud, low count posters, don't take it to heart.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

24. Who is cheering for the unity of church and state?

I would love it if vouchers were banned - they do mix church and state and pull money from public schools, which contributes to the downward spiral.

Having said that, so long as they are available, I don't see why anyone should feel guilty about using them if the local public school is not doing an adequate job of educating students. What parent doesn't want the best possible educational outcome for their children, be it through public or private schools?

[revolution breeze]

25. No unity of church and state

There are very few secular private schools in Louisiana, they just don't exist.

[cali]

26. I posted this story a few days ago and it also attracted

a few low post number folks.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

29. I have a serious question

How do low post people get to be high post people unless they post?

Is it just a rite of passage on DU that low post people are excoriated any time they say something that high post people disagree with until they have some magical number of posts that make their posts valid?

If this sounds snarky, I apologize, as it's not meant to be - I just don't understand the mindset.

[cali]

30. no offense taken. you're right of course, but the thing is

that if someone with relatively few posts, posts right wing rhetoric on an issue, suspicions are raised.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

31. Fair enough

Thank you for the answer!

[revolution breeze]

36. Not posting right wing rhetoric

I am speaking as a parent who is the middle of this huge disaster they call education and that voucher is my child's lifeline. Would you keep supportiing failure is it was your child?

[JoePhilly]

41. Is your religion, and that of the school, the same?

Or are they different?

If different, how different?

Also, the religious education at the school, is it just a couple classes, or is the religious aspect infused into every aspect? Which is common in private schools run by evangelicals.

Are the children expected to pray, or to participate in other dogmatic religious behaviors?

Imagine you live in a predominantly Muslim community, and the only private schools are Islamic. You child will have mandatory classes in Islam and Shria law. They will also be expected to pray towards Meca a few times a day. Your daughters will be expected to dress in traditional Muslim female attire.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

43. This parent is choosing the school, so obviously the religious aspect doesn't bother her

If it did, she would keep her child in the public school and not utilize the voucher.

[JoePhilly]

44. Then the parent can respond to that point.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

45. Is someone stopping her? n/t

[JoePhilly]

47. We could give her a minute.

[MH1]

51. And my tax dollars would be supporting that, and it's NOT ok with me.

At that point, I should get a tax credit that zeroes out my contribution to "education", once that education becomes religious in nature.

(yes, I have a very hard line stance on this. I am sick and tired of tax $ for religious education even being considered, let alone actually happening in this country.)

[revolution breeze]

72. You should also receive a tax credit

for schools which are not educating our children. I don't need or want state funded daycare, I need my child to learn what she needs in order to have a successful future.

[MattBaggins]

74. I'll take you one step further

I am tired of the religious based schools around here denying other kids use of any of their facilities yet demand that the local community let them use ours as well as piggy backing off our bus system and school lunches.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

79. Public school facilities are funded by taxpayers

Anyone should be able to use them.

Don't know that I agree about use of the schools buses though - that would never fly around here.

Also not sure on the school lunches - our school didn't have a cafeteria, so there were no free or reduced priced lunches. It did participate in the reduced/free milk program from the USDA.

[MattBaggins]

80. No not everyone should be able to use them

If the religious schools want access to public dollars they will have to open up their facilities as well then.

The lunch program use by the local religious schools is that the public schools cook the food and ship it to them. Yes it is a good thing to feed all the kids but it is a kick in the teeth that these kids parents want to take and never give back nor do they want their angels associating with the riff raff.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

84. Actually, no, religious schools don't have to open up their facilities to the public

It may not be right, but that's the way it is. Whereas public schools are completely funded by taxpayers, most private schools receive little if any public funding via vouchers.

And why do you believe that public school facillities shouldn't be available to the public? Our school doesn't have a gym, but we had basketball teams. The nearby public middle school made their gym available for our teams to practice, we simply had to pay for a janitor to be there turn out the lights and lock up when practices were over. Parents that are sending their kids to private schools are still taxpayers, and in the vast majority of cases, they are actually saving the the public schools money.

For example, I gladly paid my property taxes, but didn't utilize the public school system to educate my children. The county didn't have to spend any money on my kids, which meant higher per pupil spending for the kids that were there. Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge a penny of property taxes, because I believe in strong public schools, but the county got my money but didn't have to educate my kids - that's a win for the county, not a loss.

[JoePhilly]

92. And I was against the Iraq war ... and my tax dollars paid for it.

When you send your kids to a religious school YOU chose to do so. And the reason you do it is so you can send them to your preferred RELIGIOUS school. You paid more because YOU wanted to ensure your kids went to a religious school.

BTW ... it was nice that the public school let you use their gym ... that's an expense that your private religious school avoided.

We all pay taxes so that there are public schools for all. If you have the money and want to send your kids to a religious school, fine ... but don't expect a subsidy to do so.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

93. I don't and never did expect a subsidy for it

Where did you get that idea?

[JoePhilly]

94. If you support vouchers that can be used for private religious schools ...

you are supporting a subsidy.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

95. You might want to climb off your high horse and read my posts

I'm in favor of banning all vouchers. However, so long as they are available, I'm not going to criticize or condemn anyone that takes advantage of them in order to obtain a better education for their child.

[revolution breeze]

60. I was raised Jewish, sorta

My mother is Jewish, she married outside of her faith. My father was the son of a Presbyterian minister who after growing up in northern Mississippi during the 1930s (I was born very late in his life) decided religion was not even part of his life. My mother would teach me about something, my father would call bull****, they would fight and my aunt who was pagan would jump in and take me away from it all. Add to this that I was in San Francisco and Los Angeles for most of the 1960s and 1970s. So to me, religion became about nothing but ugliness. I do not condemn my mother for her faith or my father for his lack of it. In the end, we all choose to be who we are.

[MH1]

50. Do you support pedophilia? If not, why would you even consider sending your child to a

a school run by an organization that protects pedophiles?

Based on what you posted above, your child will be just fine without the dubious experience of attending Catholic school.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

53. Based on what she posted above

Her child is in a failing school. If the opportunity is there for her to her child in a better school, why shouldn't she? How could a non-failing school be worse than a failing school?

[JoePhilly]

57. So there are no good public schools?

If the voucher discussion was about non-religious, private schools, you'd have my ear.

But the reality is that the vast majority of private schools are religious schools.

Be honest, did you send your daughter to a Catholic school simply because it was a better school, or also because you wanted her to go to a Catholic school?

Again, I grew up in Philly ... tons of Catholic schools. The parents sent their kids to the Catholic schools because it was expected. They wanted the education to come from Catholics. Catholics paid the church so their kids got a Catholic education.

The voucher programs shifts that model ... such that other people's taxes subsidize my child's Catholic (or insert other religion here) education, while encouraging others to "join".

[SickOfTheOnePct]

58. The poster said that she couldn't use the voucher for a better public school

That would have been her first choice.

As for us, we lived in DC when our oldest daughter started school, and the school was horrendous. No way was she going to go there. At that time, charter schools were not an option in DC, and waiting lists for "out of boundary" public schools were long, so a different public school wasn't an option. Being Catholic, we had no problem with her going to Catholic school, and we found a tiny one that was fairly close (11 miles), very diverse and affordable.

We moved to a great school district when she was in 7th grade, but we didn't want to move her or her sister out of the school they had been in since kindergarten, so they stayed there, and then moved onto Catholic high school. Our first consideration was quality of education, not religious instruction.

[JoePhilly]

64. Understand ...

But be aware ... the "waiting list" issue you refer to will not go away. What will happen is that private religious schools will be subsidized, and if you don't belong or join, your kids will not get in, and they will end up in the under-funded public schools.

In reality, private schools are much more expensive than public schools, even with the vouchers. And so, poor kids will end up in the eroding public schools, and the parents of kids who can afford private schools, will get a subsidy.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

67. Perhaps some or even many are more expensive but not all

At the K-8 school my daughters attended, the per pupil spending was 2/3 what was being spent in DC at the time, and the education they received was far superior to the education they would have received at the school we were zoned for in DC.

Vouchers weren't around when the girls were in elementary school, and we wouldn't have qualified anyway, but the parents in DC that receive them love them. They are thrilled to be able to take their kids out of failing schools and move them to better ones.

Get rid of vouchers? Absolutely. Begrudge their use for families that are able to benefit from them? Not me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. Do you understand why the per pupil cost is lower at private schools?

There are several reasons. The teachers are paid less - lots less in some cases. Private schools don't have transportation expenses. And no special ed or ESL program requirements either.

[revolution breeze]

61. No she will not.

She is being pulled behind because her teachers are forced to teach to the lowest level student in the class. She reads at an 8th grade level, but due to "the system" is only allowed to check out books from the library on her grade level. She is growing to hate school. She no longer wants to get up in the morning. It is not fair to her.

[revolution breeze]

63. Just a note

Although this is a Catholic school, is it taught entirely by lay people, no nuns or priests on campus, other that those in the office. Religion is taught, but they know that almost half of the students in the school are not Catholic. I like the school because of the amount of parental involvement which is required, not requested.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

68. We liked that as well

Two parent families were required to perform 30 hours of service annually, and single parent families 15, and unlike many of the Catholic schools in the area, you couldn't "buy out" the hours. The service coordinator went out of the way to ensure that there were multiple service hour opportunities that parents could do at home.

[MattBaggins]

73. It isn't low post counts alone that matters

but when someone new is making statements taking jabs at teachers unions or tenure red flags go up.

[joshcryer]

54. I've read this entire thread and as of this post only ONE post qualifies for your generalization.

One post. And it's barely a qualification for such a generalization.

[Egalitarian Thug]

49. Giving money to churches and the people who run them is easy. Fixing a school system is hard

and American don't do what is hard anymore.

[revolution breeze]

71. I moved back here in 2006.

This area was hit hard by Katrina, so at first I was okay with the whole rebuilding excuse. But it is 2012, and I am still getting that excuse from politicians (i.e. board members and legislators), teachers and neighbors. And having been gone from the area for some time, I am still trying to make it back to being an insider.

[Egalitarian Thug]

87. I salute your effort. It must seem impossible at times, from what I've been told by my friends.

I just helped another one pack up to move back home.



Never give up, never surrender!

[SoCalDem]

96. Freebies to Store-front-Jesus-Schools.. That was the plan all along

Did anyone ever think that a voucher would solve our education problem?

How does a poor kid GET to a school every day? a school that may be far from where they live? Vouchers do NOTHING for transportation...and then there is the quality issue.

A "good" private school costs BIG BUCKS...who pays the difference?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

97. No, vouchers are not the answer

As for your contention that "good" private schools cost big bucks, define big bucks. That wasn't our experience.