If A Woman Has Problem Pregnancy Catholic Hospitals Will Just Let Her Die.

[TheMastersNemesis]

The brutal truth about Catholic affiliated hospitals is that they will do little to end a problem pregnancy that threatens the life of the woman. The rule is "the child is first priority" no matter what. Catholic dogma pretty means medical malpractices when dangerous miscarriages are happening.

The rise in religiously affiliated hospitals bring into question as to whether they proper service the general public. And their existence is problematic where there are communities with NO other options.

Allowing religious or Catholic dogma to supersede medical decision where a person is a nonbeliever in effect forces religion one such person.

[Socal31]

1. Hmmm.....any data on this?

I am about as athiest as you could possibly get, and I would need a little more than what you provided before getting on this bandwagon.

[niyad]

3. 1 in 6 hospitals is catholic, resulting in lowered reproductive care for women.

(this issue was covered a while back here as well)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/05/05/report-1-in-6-hospital-beds-in-u-s-is-in-a-catholic-hospital-restricting-reproductive-care/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care

https://www.aclu.org/news/new-report-reveals-1-6-us-hospital-beds-are-catholic-facilities-prohibit-essential-health-care

http://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2016/05/07/health-care-denied-at-550-hospitals-because-of-catholic-doctrine/#35c2bc011bb3

[Socal31]

4. None of those back up the assertion that doctors are letting women die.

[niyad]

5. you keep telling yourself that. oh, and read the articles.

[Socal31]

7. Not how it works, sorry.

If someone makes an outlandish claim, it is their job to back it up.

Posting 20 links that have nothing to do with the assertion doesn't make it any more valid.

[MH1]

10. Try this.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/10/catholic-hospitals-bishops-contraception-abortion-health-care

She had been carrying twins and had miscarried one at home in the bathtub. The chances of the second fetus making it were "minuscule," Dr. Robert Holder, the OB-GYN on call that day, later recalled in an affidavit. He told the woman and her husband that trying to continue the pregnancy would put her at risk of severe bleeding and infection. In short, she needed an emergency abortion.

But there was a problem: Sierra Vista was in the midst of a trial merger with a Catholic hospital company, Carondelet Health Network, which required its doctors to abide by the church's ethical and religious directives. Hospital administrators told Holder that because the surviving fetus still had a heartbeat, he could not perform an abortion. Holder had to send the patient to a hospital in Tucson—a three-hour delay that he believed put her at risk for life-threatening complications.

Edit to add, from the same article:

Catholic hospitals' treatment of miscarriage often diverges from the generally accepted standards of care followed in secular hospitals, according to Lori Freedman, an assistant professor of obstetrics at the University of California-San Francisco who published a study on the subject in 2012. Doctors told her about being forced to wait to intervene until a woman was at life-threatening risk. "We often tell patients that we can't do anything in the hospital but watch you get infected," one said.

[MH1]

12. "The church won't allow doctors to terminate ectopic pregnancies until a woman is in mortal danger"

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/10/catholic-hospitals-bishops-contraception-abortion-health-care

The church also won't allow doctors to terminate ectopic pregnancies until a woman is in mortal danger. In these pregnancies, the embryo implants outside of the uterus, most often in a fallopian tube, where it grows and can rupture the tube, potentially causing fatal bleeding. The bishops consider ending these unviable pregnancies a "direct abortion" unless a woman's life is immediately at risk. A doctor quoted in a recent study commissioned by the National Women's Law Center (NWLC) reported seeing several near-fatal tubal ruptures at her Catholic-affiliated hospital.

Despite the dangers such policies pose to patients, Catholic hospitals often do not explain them to patients, and hospitals have fought efforts to require disclosure. The NWLC has accused Catholic hospitals of ignoring "their legal obligations to disclose all treatment options" under Medicare and Medicaid. As a result, "women don't always know what has happened," says Kelli Garcia, senior counsel at the NWLC. "So if their tube ruptures, they don't necessarily know that they could have had different treatment—because what happens within the Catholic hospitals, not only are they not providing treatment, they also aren't providing information about the treatment."

[Socal31]

17. Again, I'm not seeing any reports of women dying, they should be easy to link.

Bringing religion into medicine without the consent of the patient is disgusting. If that was the way this thread was framed, instead of sensationalism, we could have seen a fruitful discussion on the subject.

[MH1]

20. Please see my comment #18

They excommunicated the nun who approved a life-saving procedure. Kind of says "should have let her die!" to me.

I agree with you that the OP is perhaps exaggerating. On the other hand, I suspect that cases can be found. I have just shown cases where women suffer needless harm because of delayed treatment. To your point, that is a big problem itself.

Frankly though, I damn sure wouldn't bet money that "let the woman die" hasn't happened. With the attitudes that have been substantiated, it seems unlikely that it hasn't resulted in at least one needless death.

[Ilsa]

32. I believe it happened in Ireland.

Indian woman, Catholic hospital, pregnancy complications which are easily treatable. The hospital refused to treat her until it was too late. Same religion.

Patients shouldn't be refused life-saving treatment until they are on the brink of death.

Jury found hospital guilty:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/20/world/europe/jury-cites-poor-medical-care-in-death-of-indian-woman-in-ireland.html?_r=0

[BlancheSplanchnik]

44. You've been disproved. I can't wait to see your amends.

Derailing important subjects, demanding links, receiving links, demanding explanation, receiving explanation...and CONTINUING the contrarianism?

A little humility is in order.

[Hortensis]

109. What happens in Catholic and other hospitals

is that case managers, and often the patient's own care providers, provide patients with names of hospitals/organizations that will perform procedures they won't. Patients are also referred to other institutions when hospitals don't have the necessary equipment or aren't able to provide the required level of care.

[pnwmom]

8. I've read them. Where do they say they let women die? n/t

[MH1]

13. Please see my responses to the prior comment. nt

[Ilsa]

33. please see my post just ahead of yours. nt

[Humanist_Activist]

9. Here's some links:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/federal-government-must-stop-catholic-hospitals-harming-more-women

https://www.aclu.org/feature/health-care-denied

There's ongoing litigation related to this issue.

In addition, here's my own analysis of the Directives that are central to this debate:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218229352#post10

[cleanhippie]

46. Here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218230725

[smirkymonkey]

2. This makes me absolutely furious!

My mother died in childbirth in a Catholic hospital (she wasn't even Catholic, she was Protestant). My brother lived. Apparently she had eclampsia. All anybody will tell me is that she shouldn't have died, it was the doctor's fault and he moved away after her death. There is some big secret about it, but nobody has ever given me the straight story I think they made the decision to go ahead w/ a pregnancy that was killing her, and eventually did. Someday, I hope to find out the truth from somebody. It's all very hush-hush among family and friends for some reason.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

45. Omg, I'm so sorry smirkymonkey.

I'd like to take the naysayers above and beat them with this.

Look at what they try to deny. This enrages me.

I am so sorry for this tragedy....

[smirkymonkey]

78. Thank you Blanche.

I appreciate it.

[pnwmom]

6. Please show one U.S. case where this has happened.

With so many Catholic hospitals, there must be lots of them.

[Humanist_Activist]

14. From my research, they wait until they nearly die, then save them...

though I wonder how many mortality cases of death by childbirth, sepsis, etc. could have been prevented by providing therapeutic abortions at the earliest opportunity, rather than waiting until the very last minute.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2636458/

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/revealed-women-endure-prolonged-miscarriages-thanks-to-michigan-catholic-hospitals-abortion-ban/

[BlancheSplanchnik]

116. ...

Thanks for your posts in this thread...you are indeed a humanist.

[ileus]

58. It doesn't

[rug]

11. Your first paragraph is pure bullshit.

ETHICAL CONSIDERATIONS

Regarding these treatments, it is critical to note that ethical considerations cannot be raised in a vacuum. They must always be taken into account in conjunction with the clinical situation, especially the medical and psychosocial condition of the mother, and what is possible clinically. Two directives are relevant here. Directive 45 states: "Abortion (that is, the directly intended termination of pregnancy before viability or the directly intended destruction of a viable fetus) is never permitted. Every procedure whose sole immediate effect is the termination of pregnancy before viability is an abortion…."

And, the second, Directive 47, states: "Operations, treatments, and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when they cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in the death of the unborn child."

Several things need to be noted and kept in mind regarding Directive 47: The direct purpose of the intervention is to save the life of the mother or protect her health, and not to terminate the life of the fetus. Second, the woman must have a proportionately serious pathological condition, and the intervention is a treatment or cure for that. Third, the intervention should be a last resort (i.e., waiting is not feasible, and lesser means have not been or will not be effective). Fourth, the directive recognizes that the intervention might result in the death of the fetus, hence, in some cases, the presence of fetal heart tones does not preclude an intervention.

https://www.chausa.org/publications/health-progress/article/may-june-2014/early-pregnancy-complications-and-the-ethical-and-religious-directives

Catholic hospitals obviously do not perform abortions. Neither do they leave women writhing in agony while the staff recites rosaries.

Catholic ethics hold that both the fetus and the woman are human beings and that both must be preserved. If only one can be saved, mother or child, than that is who will be saved.

"The rule is 'the child is first priority' no matter what." is rank bullshit.

Disagreement with their position is not a license to misstate it.

[Humanist_Activist]

16. Actually, examining some of the cases, they actually do...

"leave women writhing in agony..." they may not be reciting rosaries, but they also won't treat the underlying condition with a therapeutic abortion, usually because they still detect a fetal heartbeat.

[rug]

22. You are equating an abortion with the only treatment available.

If a woman's fetus was clearly dying and she could be treated, even if the treatment would result in the death of the fetus, Catholic ethics would not prevent the mother's treatment.

It's a species of the "double effect" argument, which, coincidentally, is used to condone civilian casualties in war.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/double-effect/

[MH1]

26. Not as long as there's a fetal heartbeat, according to the links I've posted

elsewhere on this thread.

If there's a fetal heartbeat, and preventing further harm to the woman would definitely kill the fetus, even if the fetus is clearly dying anyway, they are not allowed to perform that action until the fetus no longer has a heartbeat.

That is the point. As long as there's a fetal heartbeat, the woman has to be in life-threatening danger, before action can be taken to save her. NO PREVENTIVE ACTION CAN BE TAKEN EVEN WHEN IT IS A CERTAINTY THAT FAILURE TO ACT WILL ENDANGER THE MOTHER AND IT IS CERTAIN THAT THE FETUS WILL DIE ANYWAY.

I suspect you will keep dragging this out but the attitude of the Catholic Church in this area is about as fucked up as can be. They are not horrible in every area (I'm not a Catholic hater) but they ARE horrible in this area.

[yeoman6987]

34. I want to see United States proof. Not some foreign country

[greiner3]

38. "...foreign country"

You misspelled it; ferin country

[yeoman6987]

42. And that is why nobody is taking your OP seriously.

Waste of everyones time. And I did spell it right.

[Humanist_Activist]

59. The only people not taking this seriously are Church apologists who value their religion...

over the lives and health of women.

[yeoman6987]

61. Nonsense.

[Humanist_Activist]

66. Nice rebuttal Mr. "They can always go to another hospital" n/t

[cleanhippie]

48. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218230725

[Humanist_Activist]

28. According to the documents provided by the USCCB in addition to actual case studies,

that isn't true if the fetus still has a heartbeat. They have to wait for the fetus to die, which can be quite prolonged and dangerous for the woman.

[rug]

29. Read the link, the official ethic, I posted above.

"Operations, treatments, and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when they cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in the death of the unborn child."

It does not require the death of the fetus before the mother is treated.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

47. I think we all know Official Ethics rarely translate to Actual Practices.

Naive to think it does.

You shouldn't look at case histories and then claim they cannot be, because Official Ethics says so.

That's how a multitude of wrongdoing has always been officially denied.

[Humanist_Activist]

71. "proportionately serious" that's a problem, basically they won't terminate until the women's...

health deteriorates to the point where she's knocking on death's door.

[mercuryblues]

87. religious hospitals should lose their

license

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/18/michigan-catholic-hospital-women-miscarriage-abortion-mercy-health-partners


The woman inside the ambulance was miscarrying. That was clear from the foul-smelling fluid leaving her body. As the vehicle wailed toward the hospital, a doctor waiting for her arrival phoned a specialist, who was unequivocal: the baby would die. The woman might follow. Induce labor immediately.

But staff at the Mercy Health Partners hospital in Muskegon, Michigan would not induce labor for another 10 hours. Instead, they followed a set of directives written by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that forbid terminating a pregnancy unless the mother is in grave condition. Doctors decided they would delay until the woman showed signs of sepsis – a life-threatening response to an advanced infection – or the fetal heart stopped on its own.

In the end, it was sepsis. When the woman delivered, at 1.41am, doctors had been watching her temperature climb for more than eight hours. Her infant lived for 65 minutes.

This story is just one example of how a single Catholic hospital risked the health of five different women in a span of 17 months, according to a new report leaked to the Guardian.

[mercuryblues]

90. another one

They are needlessly putting a woman's life at risk. The longer a woman is pregnant with an unviable fetus the more likely she is to develop an infection that could kill her.

http://www.msmagazine.com/spring2011/treatmentdenied.asp

Kathleen Prieskorn gasped in shock as her medical nightmare began. Still reeling from the heartbreak of an earlier miscarriage, Prieskorn was three months pregnant and working as a waitress when she felt a twinge, felt a trickle down her leg and realized she was miscarrying again.

She rushed to her doctor's office, "where I learned my amniotic sac had torn," says Prieskorn, who lives with her husband in Manchester, N.H. "But the nearest hospital had recently merged with a Catholic hospital—and because my doctor could still detect a fetal heartbeat, he wasn't allowed to give me a uterine evacuation that would help me complete my miscarriage."

To get treatment, Prieskorn, who has no car, had to instead travel 80 miles to the nearest hospital that would perform the procedure—expensive to do in an ambulance, because she had no health insurance. Her doctor handed her $400 of his own cash and she bundled into the back of a cab.

"During that trip, which seemed endless, I was not only devastated, but terrified," Prieskorn remembers. "I knew that if there were complications I could lose my uterus—and maybe even my life."

Ordeals like the one Prieskorn suffered are not isolated incidents: They could happen to a woman of any income level, religion or state now that Catholic institutions have become the largest not-for-profit source of health-care in the U.S., treating 1 in 6 hospital patients. And that's because Catholic hospitals are required to adhere to the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services—archconservative restrictions issued by the 258-member U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Because of the directives, doctors and nurses at Catholic-affiliated facilities are not allowed to perform procedures that the Catholic Church deems "intrinsically immoral, such as abortion and direct sterilization." Those medical personnel also cannot give rape survivors drugs to prevent pregnancy unless there is "no evidence that conception has already occurred." The only birth control they can dispense is advice about "natural family planning"— laborious daily charting of a woman's basal temperature and cervical mucus in order to abstain from sex when she is ovulating—which only 0.1 percent of women use.

[MH1]

18. Hmm.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/10/catholic-hospitals-bishops-contraception-abortion-health-care

What happens if hospitals refuse to follow the bishops' directives? In 2009, doctors at St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix performed a life-saving abortion for a seriously ill mother of four. Afterward, the city's bishop excommunicated a nun on the ethics committee who had approved the procedure. He then demanded that the hospital sign an agreement promising to never again provide emergency abortion care, even when a woman's life was at risk. Hospital administrators believed the agreement violated a federal law requiring hospitals to provide emergency treatment and refused to sign, so the bishop stripped the facility of its Catholic affiliation. The following year, a bishop revoked the Catholic status of a hospital in Bend, Oregon, that refused to stop performing tubal ligations.

Sounds like St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix didn't get your memo.

Let me add that I **clearly** remember this story from the news back then, because the thought of this is so horrific. The nun who approved the life-saving, emergency abortion was EXCOMMUNICATED. That pretty strongly says, "next time you'd better let the woman die".

[rug]

21. You clearly haven't kept up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication_of_Margaret_McBride

[MH1]

23. Where does that say she wasn't excommunicated for authorizing a life saving procedure?

In fact it does say she was excommunicated.

Being reinstated later is irrelevant to the message sent by the original action.

McBride joined the ethics committee in approving the decision to terminate the pregnancy through an induced abortion.[1] The abortion took place and the mother survived.[5]
Afterwards, the abortion came to the attention of Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted, the bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Phoenix. Olmsted spoke to McBride privately and she confirmed her participation in the procurement of the abortion.[7] Olmsted informed her that in allowing the abortion, she had incurred a latae sententiae, or automatic, excommunication. McBride was subsequently reassigned from her post as vice president of mission integration at the hospital.[1]

Can you point to the part where the Catholic Church would no longer apply latae sententiae in a situation like this?

[rug]

27. It was lifted.

As of December 2011, McBride is no longer excommunicated and is in good standing with the Sisters of Mercy according to a statement from St. Joseph's Hospital emailed to the Catholic News Service.

No one excommunicated her in the first place. Technically, a latae sententiae excommunication is automatic after the commission of a proscribed act. Given her reinstatement, the alleged proscribed act turns out to be not proscribed at all.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

88. I'm sure the women who were forced to suffer or die

Appreciate your attention to detail.


Remember too, the cases posted here represent a microscopic fraction of the reality that's gone on since the beginning of Catholic hospitals. Because of course you realize that many in hospital illnesses and deaths are questionable but never pursued. Take a look at smirkeymonkey's post.

[rug]

89. Who died in that hospital?

I'll appreciate your attention to detail.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

91. We are talking about massive amounts of human suffering.

At the hands of Catholic hospitals everywhere.

Your outrage over semantic and abstruse legalistic details, while you ignore the violence inflicted on actual people----what the hell is wrong with you?

[rug]

108. Outrage?

The subthread is about one hospital.

You said there were deaths.

I asked you what deaths?

You call that "semantic and abstruse legalistic details".

I'll ask you your own question: what the hell is wrong with you?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

110. I guess you're the kind of person who focuses on one narrow point...

I'm thinking of all the cases I've ever read, personal stories I've heard, life experiences, as well as the numerous points in this very thread.

I can't just walk them out of the equation as you seem to be dedicated to doing.

The OP catalyzed a lot of discussion.
If you choose to ignore all that in order to hold to your insistence that there's something wrong with the OP...and therefore we must disregard everything else?

Okay, you go on with yourself, then. I'm done.

[rug]

111. No, I'm the kind of person who sifts bullshit from fact before popping off.

[braddy]

15. So far your claim isn't holding up, no one on the thread can prove what you are claiming.

[Humanist_Activist]

19. Well, that just isn't true, several links to several cases and a meta-analysis published in a...

medical journal were all provided.

If you want to be strict, I guess you could say that none of the cases cited were fatal, but that's more luck of the draw, I do wonder how many weren't so lucky.

Strictly speaking it isn't "let them die" its more like "let them get so sick they almost die". Which is, frankly, not much better.

[braddy]

31. We have to assume it is a false claim, a fake claim of something that just isn't true, it didn't

ring true anyway.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

49. Read the thread...there are women telling their experiences.

I don't think they appreciate being called fakes, Dude.

[braddy]

52. Their experiences do not support the fake claim of the the thread, so your post doesn't make sense.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

54. Bullshit

Dude.

[braddy]

55. Evidently not, this is a ridiculous thread, the OP proved to be nonsense.

[Humanist_Activist]

57. It hasn't been proved to be nonsense, where is your evidence for that?

There are case studies of medical malpractice, lawsuits now working through courts, along with unethical directives that these hospitals have to follow that will lead to medical malpractice if they are actually followed.

[braddy]

63. Where is your proof that this BS nonsense is factual? Here is your claim you are trying to make.

""If A Woman Has Problem Pregnancy Catholic Hospitals Will Just Let Her Die.""

This thread has failed to prove that and is a silly thread.

[Humanist_Activist]

65. So your problem is with the thread title?

Aren't you being a little overly pedantic?

[braddy]

67. A claim was made as a thread topic, and it was fake, the thread is nonsense.

[Humanist_Activist]

69. There is evidence of medical neglect due to religious interference.

Are you saying it doesn't happen?

[braddy]

70. When you can prove the claim of the thread title then post it.

[Humanist_Activist]

72. Honestly, I can't prove it, at least not in the United States, may be due to lack of reporting on...

such matters. A DUer on this thread thinks their own mother may have died due to such neglect. Hopefully the ACLU lawsuit would help shed light on the situation and how widespread it is.

The issue is how close women have gotten to death due to medical negligence that is directly linked to the USCCB directive on medical care, which are, by the way, publicly available on their website. They actually outright forbid treating a women with an ectopic pregnancy.

Here's a link to the USCCB directive and my analysis of it. At best, its contradictory, at worst, it commands medical neglect. That's probably as close to "letting them die" as we are going to get, explicitly. If you have a rebuttal of my analysis, let's hear it.

[braddy]

74. I know you can't prove it, it is a silly claim and a silly thread. You constantly posting to me is

silly as well, there is no reason for it.

[Humanist_Activist]

92. So being concerned about women's reproductive health care is silly?

You have yet to rebut anything in this thread outside of stating your opinion that apparently women's health care doesn't matter. Do you have anything of substance to contribute, or are you just going to continue to be a contrarian?

[braddy]

95. Don't start lying about me, when you can prove the silly fake claim of the OP is true, then post it

[Humanist_Activist]

96. The worst you can say about it is that its hyperbole, but it isn't silly..

and considering how many women ended up getting sepsis and other dangerous conditions due to medical neglect by catholic hospitals, its fair to wonder how many may have died.

[braddy]

98. Evidently this childish repetitive posting is something you live for, how about quit pestering me

with this childishness, and when you find the proof that I posted about, then post that.

[Humanist_Activist]

99. Who is be repetitious here? Instead of responding to the content of my posts, many of which are..

supported by links and evidence of actual harm to actual women, you mindlessly keep harping on about the OPs goddamn, hyperbolic thread title.

Would you prefer if I wrote a new OP that talks about how Catholic Hospitals will let women almost die, because that's the real story here.

[braddy]

100. LOL, evidently this is what you do for kicks, good luck with your fake claim of the OP.

[Person 2713]

24. I was stuck with a doctor with privileges at a catholic hospital Let me bleed for two days while

Miscarrying what is called a blighted ovum. You show pregnant but the fertilized egg is actually empty , no fetus will develop . Yes 2 days because he could not do a D&C due to the hospital. There was never any fetus that was ever going to come of the egg . But they couldn't interfere with fucking nonexistent life.!!This is how weird they are . They could see on the ultrasound what it was
I had no other place to go at the time due to restrictive insuranc . I did not die but was very ill and uncomfortable waiting those days until nature took its course and I shouldn't have had to risk infection or other trouble if nature didn't follow through , when a simple well established procedure is readily available when a miscarriage begins especially when there is nothing to try and save!!
But but I was testing pregnant, so ignore facts ?

Also I have requested my family never to be sent to these catholic hospital because when it comes to the end of life they do not let you die, because they are for life , they will keep you alive no matter
or painfully as in a friends case, where they had to move their mother while she was dying. The Catholic hospital wouldn't give her more pain meds becuase they claimed it could---- kill her or cause loss of consciousness . They had the extra stress of moving their mother while dying to the county hospital where she was given the meds and lived for another week , conscious almost until the end ,,not in conscious F'ing pain.
My friends brother really hit it when they told him during the whole ordeal that --the family needed to pray. He could of died from a heart attack just when talking about . It was all very stressful

I don't think other hospitals with names like Lutheran. Or Jewish are this weird , I could be wrong
its not religion and hospitals but Catholics and their controversial beliefs I think. Of course I am not near any Fundie or baptist hospitals so who knows

[Duppers]

39. :(

I so sorry.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

50. ...

[smirkymonkey]

79. I am so sorry for your experience.

That never should have happened. I'm sorry.

[womanofthehills]

85. I almost bleed to death at a Catholic hospital in Greensboro, NC yrs ago

The doc told me the fetus had died but he COULD not do a D&C because it was a Catholic Hosp. I had to wait for the dead fetus to come out by itself. I had just moved to the area and just picked the closest hospital.

Luckily, I did not leave the hospital or I would have died. I started hemorrhaging out of control like a hose turned on full blast.

[virgogal]

86. I had a D&C at a Catholic hospital in 1962---a friend of mine did also.

This was in Boston.

[Person 2713]

106. Were you pregnant? Were you miscarrying but the ovum or fetus had not yet expelled?

Wondering if they were more about women's reproductive health back then in the 60s before all their abortion stances

[virgogal]

117. Yes,I miscarried but don't remember the details---sorry.

[Texasgal]

112. My niece had a similar issue.

She had been spotting and was close to having a full blown miscarriage. She is was in pain and went to the catholic hospital that was her small town. They sent her home and told her they could not help her until her there was no heartbeat. It was very faint, having suffered a miscarriage a year previous she knew what was happening.

She had to wait for TWO days until the baby died. It was awful carrying around a dead fetus, she was emotional and it was horrible.

[demosincebirth]

25. Must have just popped into your head just to start a thread?

[sarisataka]

30. Well then let's just it decertify

All Catholic Hospitals. Problem solved.

One little question if I may, who picks up the slack?

[yeoman6987]

35. Good question. There is no way communities could afford them

Reality is not always as easy as it seems.

[Aerows]

36. They will. My mother nearly died in a Catholic hospital

due to having an ectopic pregnancy. They claimed the "fetus" was alive. My father withdrew her from that hospital, and barely JUST saved her ability to have more children.

I was that child she was able to have after a very ugly DNC. They would have allowed my mother to die. I'm inclined to direct some very ugly words in your direction if you believe that no one should be allowed to have an abortion. I'm thankful I am here to refrain from doing so.

[valerief]

37. Yeah, they like to send those orphaned boy babies to the Vatican for "special care."

Cuz "tradition."

[Person 2713]

41. Seriously now that I think about it wasn't the church in the orphan business at one time too?

I wonder if they still are....

[Omaha Steve]

40. Have you ever watched the film "The Cardinale"?

It is a big point in the film. Well worth renting.

K&R!

OS

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056907/

A young Catholic priest from Boston confronts bigotry, Naziism, and his own personal conflicts as he rises to the office of cardinal.

[Sunlei]

51. you got a link?. Who has died in a USA hospital because treatment was withheld/refused?

[alarimer]

53. Gee, why so much support for Catholic hospitals, which clearly deny needed care?

Especially for women.

I hate the Catholic Church. Seriously, what an evil organization that treats women as mere incubators. They should not be able to own hospitals of any kind unless they are willing to do ALL legal procedures. They should not be allowed to FORCE their beliefs on other people who just happen to be patients.

[yeoman6987]

60. Regardless of your personal feelings, the majority of communities could not

afford to take over the catholic hospitals. The hospitals are expensive to run. So until communities can afford them, nothing will be done. It would be interesting to see a poll from those using them to see the support/not support numbers. I suspect most appreciate the hospitals.

[Humanist_Activist]

68. Then that makes it more important to make sure these hospitals comply with....

Standards of care that include full reproductice and natal healthcare.

[ileus]

56. It happens a lot then I assume.

[Humanist_Activist]

62. There's a post on this very thread of a DUer who was allowed to bleed for 2 days because of this...

nonsense, are they lying?

How about the other women who have come forward to the aclu, are they lying?

How many don't have a voice anymore, do we know? Should we know?

[dembotoz]

64. and the gop yanmners about death panels

[BainsBane]

73. I guess the lovefest for the Catholic Church is over with now

that Bernie isn't the nominee, or that he is no longer pandering for Catholic votes in the NE.

Interesting that you feel no compulsion to provide any evidence to support your claims. This is reminiscent of primary posts where some were certain that the fact they believed something made it true, only it turned out to be wrong time and time again. That general posture is obviously not limited to elections but reflective of your overall approach to life.

[dilby]

75. Real simple don't go to a Catholic Hospital.

If the Hospital you were looking to deliver your baby at starts with a Saint, find another.

[Ilsa]

81. That's just great if you live in a large city.

A lot of smaller cities have only one hospital, a catholic-run place, and then the next closest hospital is a ... Catholic hospital. And that doesn't mean your OBGYN will drive a hundred miles to treat you in a place where he or she doesn't have privileges.

Consider how many people don't live in metroplexes.

[Lars39]

82. They've been buying up a lot of rural hospitals the last few years.

Not always easy to get to another hospital quickly.

[SCantiGOP]

76. This is why I am a proud

ex-Carholic. Gave it up at 18.

[tonyt53]

77. Actually, that is not true. The largest Catholic hospital chain even covers birth control

It is though a separate arrangement they have with a provider, but they have never contested it.

[Ilsa]

83. Only one chain, or does that apply to all of them? nt

[Humanist_Activist]

94. Is that for the employees? Its for the employees, isn't it?

Yeah, working for a PBM that's contracted with a Catholic hospital chain, its a pain in the ass, and only applies to finding a way to pay for employees access to contraception. They still can't get it at the hospitals, and it doesn't apply to patients.

[Person 2713]

107. The OP is about treatment of problem pregnancies. Birth control is used to prevent pregnancy

[Ilsa]

80. Isn't it bad enough that they refuse pregnancy prophylaxis to rape victims?

That alone would make me suspicious of treatment options available in catholic hospitals.

And don't tell me that the woman can just get up and go to another provider. Some women are assaulted physically enough to put them in serious or worse condition. An acquaintance I met years ago was tied up, repeatedly raped, threatened with torture and death, and badly beaten. She was hospitalized for a week. She wouldn't be able to leave for proper treatment if it had been a Catholic hospital.

There are many places here in south Texas where a Catholic hospital is the only one available for 50-100 miles. Not everyone lives in a large city with multiple hospital choices.

[deathrind]

84. My...

The dogmatic contortions being performed in this thread are astonishing.

[Runningdawg]

93. I am a retired nurse

who worked predominately in Catholic hospitals. I worked in the OR, ER and Labor and Delivery. All the places the above mentioned abuse might have taken place. In 25 years I did not see one incident. Not. ONE.
We can talk all day about some of their other practices, but letting a woman and/or her baby die, from my experience, is pure bullshit.

[Humanist_Activist]

97. So the people who are coming forward with their stories are making them up? n/t

[Runningdawg]

104. I do not have enough information to make that call

I live in a major city with many hospitals and I shared my POV that the Catholic Hospitals I worked for, did not engage in those practices. I don't think all Catholic hospitals should be judged by the mistakes of a few and just for the record, I'm not Catholic and I am pro choice. Believe me, if I had seen even a hint of what the article described I would have been raising hell (and looking for a new job).

[Humanist_Activist]

105. I think the issue is mostly about the five women who experience what they did in a relatively short.

time span within one Catholic health care system. The hospitals claimed to have followed the USCCB directives, and the Bishops enforce these directives on these health systems. It might be the tip of the iceberg OR an outlier, but how are we to know, I hope the ACLU will be able to shine a light on these activities.

[840high]

101. Another day on DU - more

Catholic bashing.

[Humanist_Activist]

102. Oh please, that's bullshit, when policies are put in place that put real people in harm...

we have every right to criticize those who institute those policies.

Stop playing at being the victim, its bullshit.

[840high]

113. I don't see much Isis, Taliban criticism here. Nor

do I see Muslim criticism.Hope you all enjoy your perfect religions.

[Humanist_Activist]

115. Get out of here about your irrelevant bullshit...

I'm sorry, this thread is about one subject. You want me to bash those shit organizations and religions, point me in the right direction.

[libodem]

103. Yep

We are but the vessel in their eyes.

[ucrdem]

114. This again?