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Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:01 AM

I will not offer "thoughts and prayers" for the victims in Orlando

It's too late for that. What is needed is action. How did the shooter get a semi automatic weapon? How did he get it into the club? What was his motive? And so on.
I will say that I stand with my gay brothers and sisters from the club. Let's end the madness.

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Reply I will not offer "thoughts and prayers" for the victims in Orlando (Original post)
Bluzmann57 Jun 2016 OP
malaise Jun 2016 #1
Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #4
LineLineLineReply .
JudyM Jun 2016 #10
Kang Colby Jun 2016 #42
Station to Station Jun 2016 #44
Kang Colby Jun 2016 #46
Station to Station Jun 2016 #51
Kang Colby Jun 2016 #54
Station to Station Jun 2016 #61
Kang Colby Jun 2016 #63
Station to Station Jun 2016 #68
eggplant Jun 2016 #62
Kang Colby Jun 2016 #65
eggplant Jun 2016 #111
apcalc Jun 2016 #67
Kentonio Jun 2016 #74
Hayduke Bomgarte Jun 2016 #59
TheCowsCameHome Jun 2016 #2
mainstreetonce Jun 2016 #3
pipoman Jun 2016 #7
MillennialDem Jun 2016 #9
pipoman Jun 2016 #20
Orrex Jun 2016 #13
pipoman Jun 2016 #17
Orrex Jun 2016 #19
pipoman Jun 2016 #22
Orrex Jun 2016 #30
pipoman Jun 2016 #37
Orrex Jun 2016 #47
pipoman Jun 2016 #49
Orrex Jun 2016 #56
pipoman Jun 2016 #69
Orrex Jun 2016 #75
pipoman Jun 2016 #78
spooky3 Jun 2016 #50
MillennialDem Jun 2016 #25
pipoman Jun 2016 #34
Orrex Jun 2016 #35
pipoman Jun 2016 #41
Orrex Jun 2016 #43
pipoman Jun 2016 #48
Orrex Jun 2016 #55
pipoman Jun 2016 #64
MillennialDem Jun 2016 #83
pipoman Jun 2016 #91
MillennialDem Jun 2016 #97
pipoman Jun 2016 #101
MillennialDem Jun 2016 #107
Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #81
MillennialDem Jun 2016 #84
Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #85
homegirl Jun 2016 #31
Separation Jun 2016 #117
anigbrowl Jun 2016 #120
Orrex Jun 2016 #121
anigbrowl Jun 2016 #122
Orrex Jun 2016 #123
lastlib Jun 2016 #29
Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #12
Francis Booth Jun 2016 #21
pipoman Jun 2016 #23
Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #32
Francis Booth Jun 2016 #80
pipoman Jun 2016 #100
Francis Booth Jun 2016 #112
pipoman Jun 2016 #113
Francis Booth Jun 2016 #115
pipoman Jun 2016 #116
X_Digger Jun 2016 #77
bigdarryl Jun 2016 #27
pipoman Jun 2016 #39
Recursion Jun 2016 #28
pipoman Jun 2016 #105
pengu Jun 2016 #5
MillennialDem Jun 2016 #11
Orrex Jun 2016 #16
MillennialDem Jun 2016 #18
Orrex Jun 2016 #24
MillennialDem Jun 2016 #26
Orrex Jun 2016 #33
pipoman Jun 2016 #52
Orrex Jun 2016 #76
pipoman Jun 2016 #79
Orrex Jun 2016 #88
pipoman Jun 2016 #92
Orrex Jun 2016 #95
pipoman Jun 2016 #96
xmas74 Jun 2016 #110
pengu Jun 2016 #73
pipoman Jun 2016 #94
xmas74 Jun 2016 #109
Lizzie Poppet Jun 2016 #38
yuiyoshida Jun 2016 #106
CincyDem Jun 2016 #6
Feeling the Bern Jun 2016 #8
MoonRiver Jun 2016 #36
CincyDem Jun 2016 #53
MoonRiver Jun 2016 #57
ET Awful Jun 2016 #72
tallahasseedem Jun 2016 #82
Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #86
tallahasseedem Jun 2016 #87
Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #89
tallahasseedem Jun 2016 #90
Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2016 #14
valerief Jun 2016 #15
SCantiGOP Jun 2016 #40
Barack_America Jun 2016 #45
neeksgeek Jun 2016 #58
TheFrenchRazor Jun 2016 #104
alarimer Jun 2016 #60
snort Jun 2016 #66
SusanCalvin Jun 2016 #71
ileus Jun 2016 #99
Separation Jun 2016 #118
snort Jun 2016 #119
Smarmie Doofus Jun 2016 #70
liberalnarb Jun 2016 #93
ileus Jun 2016 #98
WiffenPoof Jun 2016 #102
Francis Booth Jun 2016 #114
Warren DeMontague Jun 2016 #103
xmas74 Jun 2016 #108

Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:03 AM

1. +1,000

No candles, teddy bears or flowers - time for no guns.

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Response to malaise (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:10 AM

4. Sorry but the victims will be mourned and it is not about you and your issues.

 

You do not get to give orders. So don't.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #4)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:56 AM

10. .

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Response to malaise (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:57 AM

42. In Florida, guns are banned from being taken into bars. So there was supposed to be no guns.

Florida needs laws like Georgia, Virginia, and other states which allow lawful concealed carry in bars.

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Response to Kang Colby (Reply #42)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:00 AM

44. Yeah, another few dozen people spraying bullets around into

a packed environment would have gone well, Demento. FYI, there was an armed officer at the club. He certainly stemmed the tide!

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Response to Station to Station (Reply #44)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:06 AM

46. I believe that your average concealed carrier wouldn't just start "spraying bullets".

Under the law, you are responsible for every bullet that comes out of your gun. The scenario related to mass killings that you describe has never happened. Yet, there are several examples of a law abiding concealed carrier stopping the threat.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/

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Response to Kang Colby (Reply #46)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:12 AM

51. There was a concealed carrier there last night

You could multiply that by three dozen and when you're packed in like sardines, you're still getting countless people killed - the killer is still spraying bullets like a mad man. This is not a video game, and you'll notice that the perpetrator managed to shoot an officer in the head before he was taken down.

At best you'll end up with fewer casualties, but when the end result is still multiple people dead at the hands of a freak who was allowed to buy a gun easily, how does that cut to the core of the problem? It doesn't.

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Response to Station to Station (Reply #51)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:16 AM

54. I understand where you are coming from....

but I can't help but notice these types of crimes seem to almost always occur in places that guns are banned: churches, bars, schools, etc.

Why is that?

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Response to Kang Colby (Reply #54)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:27 AM

61. It is often because they are emotive targets and

when busy, offer up the potential for massive loss of life.

But then so are many places, many places in America and many places across the world. You can't stop everything all the time whether you are in America, in Britain, in France, wherever.

I'm not an advocate of banning guns entirely, not by any means. Yet I am a proponent of a relatively comprehensive registration and licensing scheme. It's required for cars, a possession many people literally cannot live without.

I honestly cannot find any good argument against it; the idea that it may be necessary to rise up against a tyrannical government is so out there that it's unfathomable to me that some might actually think it's a realistic scenario. To me, that's almost as crazy as Ted Kaczynski

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Response to Station to Station (Reply #61)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:31 AM

63. I disagree with your argument.

Licensing and registering only those willing to be licensed and registered is "security theater". Read up on the idea of security theater some time if you are unfamiliar.

However, I do respect your argument. Welcome to DU. If more people could have a calm discussion like this, we could understand different perspectives and find common ground.

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Response to Kang Colby (Reply #63)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:36 AM

68. To be perfectly honest I haven't been very calm

about this, and have to own some dumb comments of my own. Passionate anger does uncover my ugly side, and I'm not especially proud of that fact but this little thread has evolved into something less provocative, so I appreciate your comment there.

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Response to Kang Colby (Reply #54)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:29 AM

62. Because people prefer to congregate in places where there are fewer weapons.

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Response to eggplant (Reply #62)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:32 AM

65. I don't think that is true. n/t

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Response to Kang Colby (Reply #65)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:58 PM

111. I'm not here to convince you.

You asked a question, I answered. We're not going to convince each other.

"Guns make us safer" is equivalent to "good fences make good neighbors."

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Response to Kang Colby (Reply #54)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:35 AM

67. These shootings occur whether guns are banned or not.

Fellow Hillary supporter..

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Response to apcalc (Reply #67)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:06 PM

74. No they don't.

 

This one might have happened anyway, but legal guns mean that when someone goes insane they don't have easy access to legal weapons. And most people have no idea where to go to buy an illegal weapon.

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Response to malaise (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:25 AM

59. I've been saying that for years Even no guns for LEOs

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:05 AM

2. That's not getting the job done.

We need positive action - NOW.

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:09 AM

3. Time for an assault weapon ban

Now

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Response to mainstreetonce (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:41 AM

7. Not now...after someone successfully defines "assault weapon"...

 

..it has never been done.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:24 AM

20. Dictionary definitions and legal definitions are two completely different things..

 

There is congressional testimony by Bill Clintons FBI director, BATFE director, and the armorer of LAPD who all stated they cannot find a definition that would stand constitutional scrutiny. Exactly why the 1994 ban was allowed to sunset...the challenges were going to succeed...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:03 AM

13. Then let's not fuck around with definitions. Here's the solution:

Ban any firearm that can be loaded with more than one round at a time or that can be equipped with a clip or magazine enabling it it to hold more than one round at a time.

Ban any firearm that can fire or can be made to fire more than one round in any consecutive five second period.

Subsequent to the ban, possession of a banned firearm will subject the offender to a minimum of ten years in prison per firearm with no chance of parole.


Problem solved.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:17 AM

17. Thats an option, you'll have to amend the constitution of course...

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #17)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:22 AM

19. Regardless

In the history of US gun violence, no gun advocate has offered a real and credible solution. Instead, they exclusively busy themselves with complaining about definitions (e.g. "It's not a clip--it's a magazine!", calls for increased gun ownership, or making vague and unhelpful pronouncements about mental health care.

If correcting the 2nd amendment is what it takes to reduce gun violence, than all responsible gun owners should be behind that effort 100%.


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Response to Orrex (Reply #19)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:31 AM

22. Solution? There is no solution to some people wanting to kill others

 

No, it is big gun control that refuses to do anything but piss and moan and pretend. If they cared about gun show private purchases they would set up a kiosk at gun sgows to do bg checks for private sales. They would actively educate safety....in this way they are exactly as stupid as the anti-abortion celibacy idiots.

No, it is always the same. Demand the impossible and pretend the impossible is the only answer...over and over and over... Big gun control would quit getting donations if the problem was abated...they wouldn't want that, so they keep arguing for the impossible...and so it goes...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #22)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:46 AM

30. Funny that other countries manage to do it, then.

What do they know that we don't?

Perhaps it has something to do with the absence in those countries of a vast, multi-billion dollar gun lobbying industry with an army of eager propagandists willing to declare that the problem can't be solved because "there is no solution."


If that's truly the attitude of the NRA and its surrogates, then it's clear that gun advocates are unqualified to discuss the issue.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #30)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:52 AM

37. You do know that other countries don't have the US Constitution or BoR, no?

 

This is really much simpler than you are pretending...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #37)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:07 AM

47. Other countries don't have the US Constitution? Amazing! Who knew?

If the sacrosanct US Constitution (or specifically the disastrous 2nd amendment) is preventing us from reducing gun violence via effective means available to other nations, then perhaps it's time for some serious reexamination.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #47)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:08 AM

49. Yep, as I said in the beginning, amend the constitution...

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #49)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:17 AM

56. Since you know that that's effectively impossible...

then what do you suggest as a realistic alternative, especially after you've declared that there's no solution?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #56)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:47 AM

69. A lot

 

For instance, big gun control has done nothing but pretend first about the "gun show loophole" until every thinking mind knew there was no "loophole". Now "Universal Background check"...same song, same verse, different name...they raise most of their money fooling people that their donation will help fight the NRA, Republicans, and all the other boogie men they pretend are the impediment to federally mandated background checks on intrastate private sales of used guns...they know that the federal government has no jurisdiction over people selling their private property to other residents within their state, they pretend it ain't so to raise money.

If they wanted to actually fix something they would lobby for making NICS actually possible to use for private sales voluntarily...frankly this could be done by executive order...

They would lobby for criminal and civil immunity for former owners for crimes committed by guns sold through the system.

They would set up kiosks at gun shows to conduct bg checks and public information about the liability for not using the system if the gun is later used in a crime.

No, they aren't interested in reducing, they are interested in working through to retirement simply by waiving a red flag.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #69)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:22 PM

75. "Big gun control"

Which Rightwing media outlet fed you that meme, I wonder?

If they wanted to actually fix something they would lobby for making NICS actually possible to use for private sales voluntarily...frankly this could be done by executive order...
Independent private gun sales should be banned, and anyone attempting to buy or sell a firearm through private transaction should be jailed for ten years with no probation for each firearm attempted to be bought or sold. Private gun sales could be permitted if effected through a licensed agency able to perform background checks. This is fully consistent with the sacrosanct 2nd amendment.

Background checks and their results must be permanently maintained in a database freely accessible to the public. This is fully consistent with the sacrosanct 2nd amendment.

All guns must be registered, and any gun not registered must be impounded and the owner jailed for ten years with no probation for each unregistered firearm. This is fully consistent with the sacrosanct 2nd amendment.

Gun owners must be held responsible for their guns at all times, and they must be aware of each gun's location at all times. Theft must be reported within one business day; otherwise the gun owner is full accessory to any crimes committed with such guns. This is fully consistent with the sacrosanct 2nd amendment.

Gun advocates will invariably howl about their perceived right to privacy, which they imagine to trump all other considerations, but they can stuff that bullshit up their well-oiled barrels. My legal history is freely available to the public, despite my concerns about privacy; the history of my home's ownership is freely available to the public, despite my concerns about privacy. Gun registry should be equally freely available.

They also make some ridiculous noise about the likelihood that they'll be targeted for theft if people know that they have guns, but fuck that cowardly bullshit as well; secure storage is a basic component of responsible gun ownership, and if you can't step up to the demands of responsible gun ownership, then you sure as hell don't deserve to own one.

In short, I'm tired of the bullshit fired at us 24/7 from gun advocates who care about nothing so much as their precious, precious guns despite their claims to the contrary.


Gun advocates have demonstrated time and again--even after Sandy Hook, even this morningafter Orlando--that they advocate for guns above all else, and the safety of others is of no concern to them. Gun owners have said enough, and it's time for them to shut the fuck up and step aside to let others handle the problem that gun advocates have so eagerly enabled for decades.


Reply however the fuck you want because I know what you think on the matter and I have no interest in reading NRA propaganda on DU.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #75)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:37 PM

78. More with the impossible? ffs

 

"This is fully consistent with the sacrosanct 2nd amendment."

Only if you are completely clueless. I know folks like you can't use otherwise accessible intellegence when the gunz are concerned....don't impede those of us who can....

The NRA hasn't shit to do with shit....another pretend impediment invented by big gun control...

No, your little outburst full of complete horseshit aside, big gun control has no interest in anything that might tear down their sacred horn-o-plenty...they are the enemy of actual headway on this and most other gun control attempts...

Funny how you are sitting there patting yourself on the back for such an intelligent response while not considering it is constitutionally impossible complete idiocy like this that prevents answers.

My response was possible and realistic and could start immediately if it werent for fools pushing such silliness...

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Response to Orrex (Reply #30)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:08 AM

50. +1

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Response to pipoman (Reply #17)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:36 AM

25. Why? Constitution doesn't say what constitutes an arm. Would the constitution need to be

 

amended to ban Panzerfausts?

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #25)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:50 AM

34. It has been defined and settled by SCOTUS

 

The amendment process woyld be much easier than turning the SCOTUS train around, and about as possible....

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Response to pipoman (Reply #34)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:51 AM

35. Overturning that bullshit Heller decision would be a good first step

Easily one of the worst rulings in the past decade, and in time it will be recognized as such.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #35)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:56 AM

41. Just like the Roe overturn crowd....we'll all be dead before that happens

 

Again with the impossible...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #41)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:59 AM

43. Hardly the same, and I sure as hell hope that you know it.

Again, though, perhaps gun advocates are ill qualified to participate in the discussion.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #43)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:07 AM

48. It's exactly the same.

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #48)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:16 AM

55. Maybe you're right.

After all, Roe v. Wade guarantees a woman's control over her own body, while Heller enables many thousands of murders annually, so they're more or less identical.

I find it difficult to maintain civility with someone who would claim such a preposterous equivalence, so I'd say we're done here.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #55)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:31 AM

64. Help yourself....

 

SCOTUS overturn is a copout excuse to do nothing. 'We can't do the impossible so we will do nothing'...exactly my point.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #34)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:35 PM

83. No it isn't. Scotus is free to overrule itself. Much easier than an amendment - for evidence I

 

give you:

Bowers v Hardwick

and

Lawrence v Texas

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #83)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 03:01 PM

91. wishful thinking....not in any of our lifetime

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #91)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:20 PM

97. Lot can change in 60 years... unless I get hit by a bus.

 

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #97)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:31 PM

101. not as much as you might think....

 

I used to think that when i was in my 20s..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #101)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 07:18 PM

107. How old are you now?

 

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #25)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:13 PM

81. It DOES say specifically the "press". All other communications need not apply?

 

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #81)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:38 PM

84. Obviously there are limits to any freedom. Yelling fire in a crowded theater is not

 

an unreasonable restriction on speech...

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #84)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:06 PM

85. Even the fire-in-theater free speech test was overturned in 1969.

 

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Response to Orrex (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:46 AM

31. Simple and

long past due.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #13)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:16 PM

117. JFK was killed with an antique bolt action rifle

There was another shooter, in a bell tower. Its going to be more difficult that just that. I dont have any answers. Pretty much what you suggest is a more restrictive ban than what the UK or Australia has. Im not saying thats a bad thing, but realistically I just dont think that will ever happen here.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #13)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:43 PM

120. But how do you intend to enforce this?

 

I hate guns but this proposal seems immediately doomed to failure. We don't have a magic wand that can just achieve this, so it's up to you as the proposer to spell out how you expect to make this work.

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Response to anigbrowl (Reply #120)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 05:15 PM

121. We implement a publicly accessible national gun registry, of course

Despite the howling of gun enablers, this represents no unacceptable violation of privacy, because housing and legal records are already freely available to the public, as are a whole range of licensing certifications.

Once the database is available, any gun not accounted for in the registry or out of compliance with the ban will be forfeit, with the owner subjected to 10 years in prison per gun with no chance of parole.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #121)

Tue Jun 14, 2016, 01:23 AM

122. Not of course

 

I am fine with a national gun registry, but you seriously expect to be able conduct a census of every gun in the US?

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Response to anigbrowl (Reply #122)

Tue Jun 14, 2016, 05:30 AM

123. Probably not

But every time a gun is found that's not on the database, the owner gets ten years in prison per gun with no chance of parole.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:44 AM

29. I'll say that any gun that points at a person is an assault weapon.

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Response to mainstreetonce (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:02 AM

12. Because the last one worked so well!

 

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Response to mainstreetonce (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:31 AM

21. A ban isn't enough - that would leave millions

of guns in circulation.

We need confiscation. Turn them in or go to jail.

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Response to Francis Booth (Reply #21)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:32 AM

23. You going to volunteer for that duty?

 

Yeah, I didn't think so...

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Response to Francis Booth (Reply #21)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:47 AM

32. You do realize that such an effort would kill vastly more people, right?

 

And who's going to carry it out?

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #32)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:54 PM

80. No, I don't know that. What I do know is that gun

violence is killing 30,000 people each year. And even though it has been declining, these mass murders have become like a video game to crazies, with each new atrocity trying to achieve a 'high score'.

The rest of the world manages to get by without civilian ownership of high capacity rifles. We can do it if we have the will.

I don't propose confiscating pistols and revolvers, and I do support concealed carry, with background checks and training. But this is getting ridiculous. How many more massacres are we going to tolerate?

There's no earthly reason why people can't hunt and defend themselves with a 5 round clip. We did the experiment, and it failed. Adults just cannot be trusted with so much firepower.

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Response to Francis Booth (Reply #80)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:30 PM

100. 30k...

 

20k are suicides..suicidal people will commit suicide with or without guns. 6k+ are criminal on criminal (usually gamg related), 2k are domestic, the rest are accidents, previously no convictions, and justifiable shootings by police and others.

In the complete absence of guns most would still occur.

The rest of the world doesn't have the US Constitution or BoR. Amend the constitution and perhaps it may happen...not in the lifetime of anyone living today....

Pistols and revolvers account for...what is it?...80% of gun deaths?....

That last sentence is the kicker....out of 150 million gun owners 10k...even 30k is much safer than many many other activities....no, live in a feee society and there will always be risk.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #100)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:57 PM

112. It will take time - generations perhaps - but

gun ownership will go the way of cigarettes eventually. Like I said, I don't oppose the possession of pistols for defense, but it's the large capacity magazines that are giving people the power to mow down 100 innocents in minutes. This is just unacceptable in any society that wants to call itself civilized.

The people want this to stop. It's our corrupt, paid-for congress that is blocking any progress on this front. Maybe it has to start by voting out all the crooks - both D and R - who are doing the NRA's bidding.

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Response to Francis Booth (Reply #112)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:19 AM

113. It is the constitution and subsequent SCOTUS rulings that rule out just about every bill

 

And most bills, including this latest Fienstein folly, is just for show...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #113)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 02:21 PM

115. It's my understanding that even Heller left intact the right for the feds

to regulate the types of firearms that may be possessed. I would assume that this would also include limiting magazine capacity, as many states already do.

In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with leaving all the guns alone and just going after magazines. An AR-15 with a five round clip is not going to be as appealing to mass murders as an AR-15 with unlimited 30 round clips.

I don't think there's a practical way to actually confiscate them, so we need a system under which they could be turned in voluntarily. After a certain grace period, you get caught with a 30 round magazine, and you go to jail for 10 years.

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Response to Francis Booth (Reply #115)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 03:53 PM

116. Not exactly, iirc Heller borrowed the standard set

 

In 1939 USA vs Miller of "in common use for lawful purposes"...a standard which has been used several times since Miller. This standard makes additional federal regulation on many types of weapons impossible because they are obviously in common use for lawful purposes...this would include hand guns and many of those referred to as "assault weapons"..

A federal magazine restriction won't pass either for the same reason imho....further, there wither has to be payment for the magazines (expensive) or grandfather them (ineffective).

In short, there are many many gun laws and restrictions on the 2nd amendment. We are at a place that most new restriction has already been asked and answered as not being constitutionally possible within the existing framework of case law.. there may be some tweaks left..i don't know what they are...

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Response to Francis Booth (Reply #21)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:35 PM

77. Which would be a 'taking' under the fifth amendment. Got the budget to pay $750 per?

Thought not.

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Response to mainstreetonce (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:37 AM

27. Not going to happen unless Congress and the Senate is changed

 

With mainly progressive candidates.

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Response to bigdarryl (Reply #27)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:54 AM

39. Don't forget the Constitution and SCOTUS...they would have to go too...

 

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Response to mainstreetonce (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:43 AM

28. I'd support reclassifying semi-automatics with detachable magazines under the NFA

Particularly with a "mini-FFL" type license that would only be good for them and not the full FFL stuff.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #28)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 05:37 PM

105. "In common use for lawful purposes" is the federal standard for NFA registration...

 

Established USA vs Miller in 1939. This will not change and semi autos are solidly in that definition.

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:12 AM

5. Right now some of us from Orlando are still waking up to this news

We are trying to find out if our friends or family are ok. It isn't "too late for thoughts and prayers".

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Response to pengu (Reply #5)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:57 AM

11. Thoughts and prayers don't do anything anyway

 

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:16 AM

16. That's lovely, but...

In your eagerness to declare your own non-belief, be careful not to trample on the emotions of those who are close to the event.

Victims are literally still bleeding from the massacre. It is the height of gross insensitivity to trivialize people's coping mechanisms solely to score points in the name of rationalism or whatever.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #16)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:20 AM

18. Ever think it's insensitive to offer thoughts and prayers to atheists/agnostics during tragedies?

 

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:35 AM

24. No. That has never once occurred to me.

Not here, here, here, here or here, for instance.

Regardless, because I'm not an asshole, I know better than exploit a tragedy solely for the purpose of righteously broadcasting my own righteous atheism. I have no interest in that form of public masturbation, thanks.

I will defer to the dead, the injured and the mourners. Lacking any knowledge of their beliefs or non-belief I will not use this opportunity to advertise my own.


Find your own level, of course.


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Response to Orrex (Reply #24)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:37 AM

26. Offering your prayers is advertising your beliefs. Thoughts maybe. Our hearts go out to etc.... woul

 

d be ok...

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #26)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:47 AM

33. That's my personal preference as well (nt)

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #26)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:12 AM

52. People who wish you well are giving you a gift no matter how they do it...

 

The ignorant look a harmless well wish as some sort of declaration of something else....go ahead, look a gift horse in the mouth...

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Response to pipoman (Reply #52)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:28 PM

76. No, that's bullshit.

The well-wisher must defer to the beliefs or non-beliefs of the intended recipient of those wishes. If the well-wisher can't manage a response that respects that person's beliefs or non-belief, then the well-wisher should keep their mouth shut. And if the recipient's beliefs or non-belief are not known, then basic courtesy demands that the well-wisher make a neutral statement that presumes nothing about the recipient's beliefs or non-belief.

You imagine it to a "gift horse," but that's not actually the case. It's an unambiguous declaration by the well-wisher that the recipient must respect the well-wisher's beliefs over their own.

Your failure to understand this is not surprising.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #76)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:39 PM

79. Wow....kep on hating..lol

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #79)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:13 PM

88. I'm saying that the victim or grieving person should be treated with respect

You're saying "fuck the victim--the well-wisher's feelings are more important."

Why does it seem like "hating" to you to urge respect for the victim?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #88)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 03:03 PM

92. I wanted a red bike, not that uggy blue one...

 

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Response to pipoman (Reply #92)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 03:16 PM

95. "I ask that you respect my beliefs and not advertise yours."

It is not the mourner's obligation to comfort the well-wisher. And if the well-wisher can't back off on the proselytizing for one minute, then maybe the well-wisher should simply shut up. It is a one-way transaction in which the aggrieved party hold absolute priority, and all other considerations are subordinate to that.

I get that you want to make this first and foremost about the well-wisher, but that's a selfish and myopic attitude indicating that you don't understand how compassion works.






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Response to Orrex (Reply #95)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 03:39 PM

96. Let's envision this...

 

One of your loved ones passes away. An acquaintance sees you and says, "hey Or, sorry to hear about ***, my thoughts and prayers are with you."

Only a jerkoff dumbass would take offense to that. See, you don't have to care about the prayer, the person is wishing you well.period.

I never say it because I don't pray, but if someone is praying for me (and they are), how can I not appreciate their thoughts....

Selfish is thinking everyone should wish you well just the way you think they should...ffs...a gift horse in the mouth..

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Response to pipoman (Reply #96)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 08:35 PM

110. Someone took time out of their day to think of you.

That's all thoughts and prayers really means. They took time to think about someone that they might not even know and an event that never actually affected them and they felt for that person, that family, that business, that city.

Sometimes people need to take the meaning behind it and let the rest go.

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:00 PM

73. As an atheist, no, absolutely not

I appreciate that people are thinking kindly about me and my loved ones.

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Response to pengu (Reply #73)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 03:06 PM

94. Most normal people would agree with you on this...

 

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 08:28 PM

109. How is it insensitive to offer thoughts to atheists and agnostics?

How is it so insensitive to have people merely say "I'm thinking of you in your time of tragedy" or "I'm trying to find ways to help".

Someone took time to think about someone else in the course of their day. In cases like this they took time to think about someone they didn't know, never met and an event that probably didn't affect them. How is that insensitive?

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Response to MillennialDem (Reply #11)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:53 AM

38. "Nothing fails like prayer."

 

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #38)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 05:46 PM

106. this

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:13 AM

6. How long before someone floats that familiar, hollow mantra...



..."this is a sad event that could have been cut short had good citizens in the club been armed to protect themselves".

Always with the bullsh*t, never willing to part of the solutions. That's our NRA.

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Response to CincyDem (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:50 AM

8. Those are the gundamentalists here on DU too.

 

After all, it was just another 60 or so people shot. Gotta protect that precious gun.

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Response to CincyDem (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:52 AM

36. It's both the NRA and the Republican platform.

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Response to MoonRiver (Reply #36)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:13 AM

53. Great point - I'm so pissed about this that I skipped the obvious connection. Thanks. n/t

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Response to CincyDem (Reply #53)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:21 AM

57. No problem. It's something we must all keep in mind during this upcoming presidential election.

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Response to CincyDem (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:53 AM

72. It's been said in this thread already by some folks . . .

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Response to CincyDem (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:20 PM

82. Oh Cincy...it is already happening...

there is one poster peddling this line in many of the threads related to this tragedy.

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Response to tallahasseedem (Reply #82)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:12 PM

86. "starts with T, that rhymes with P, that stands for POOL!"

 

Soon, we'll have NRA watch-lists on DU.

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #86)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:12 PM

87. I wish we could!

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Response to tallahasseedem (Reply #87)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:14 PM

89. So many here aren't very D-democratic, when you get down to it.

 

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #86)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:22 PM

90. There are a couple of others...

that are being outright ridiculous.

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:07 AM

14. I have a Pulse. Je suis Charlie. Boston Strong. Remain Calm and Carry On. . . nt

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:12 AM

15. Arms, war, and heroin. America's big industries. nt

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:55 AM

40. No prayers, action

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:02 AM

45. I can offer shock.

That's all I have right now.

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:24 AM

58. All those who preach hatred and fear and violence own this. eom.

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Response to neeksgeek (Reply #58)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 05:06 PM

104. precisely. nt

 

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:26 AM

60. It is literally the least anyone can do. Meaningless platitudes.

Designed to make the giver feel better, but will make not one iota of difference.

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:33 AM

66. Time for a full ban on all but single shot.

Modification to existing should be an option if you can't bring yourself to part with precious. Gunsmiths would do well.

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Response to snort (Reply #66)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:53 AM

71. Sounds good to me.

A few minutes ago, when I was still crying and screaming uncontrollably, I yelled to hubby (mild gun nut - collects but doesn't use, and sometimes, if it occurs to him, thinks "they" might come get them) that it was ONE. SINGLE. SHOOTER. He expressed disbelief. I showed him the headline and screamed that high-capacity magazines needed to be banned RIGHT THE HELL NOW. He looked stunned and nodded his head.

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Response to snort (Reply #66)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:23 PM

99. Why stop there...we can force a complete ban.

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Response to snort (Reply #66)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:29 PM

118. Even then, that wouldnt work

JFK was killed with an antique Italian bolt action rifle. The clock tower guy in Tx as well. Nothing short of %100 confiscation will not work, and that will just not ever happen.

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Response to Separation (Reply #118)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 04:39 PM

119. Not what I had in mind.

The gun would need to be loaded a round into the receiver at a time, no magazine.

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:52 AM

70. Yes. But more to the point: How did he get the idea in his head....

 

... that it was OK to kill 50 humans ...... (presumably) because of their sexuality?

Or for ANY reason, for that matter.

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 03:05 PM

93. I do. It's my politicians that need to do more.

 

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:23 PM

98. Thoughts and Prayers...for everyone involved.

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:57 PM

102. I hate to say it...

...but if nothing happened after 20 first graders were slaughtered in New Town, this isn't going to change anything.

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Response to WiffenPoof (Reply #102)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 11:58 AM

114. I think you're right. That was the moment to act. But our own Harry Reid wouldn't let any new gun

restrictions come to the Senate floor.

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:58 PM

103. Frankly, to my mind, the belief that there's a giant invisible man in the sky is part of the problem

just sayin.

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Response to Bluzmann57 (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 08:23 PM

108. Thoughts and prayers can be offered

and action can be taken at the same time. It's not difficult to do, if you're of the mind to do it.

Included in the thoughts about the families of the victims would be thoughts about how to prevent this from happening again.

The victims deserved to be mourned and the families deserve the chance to mourn them. Give them that much.

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