Fuck the NRA .... 50 dead.

[Botany]

Right now the NRA is holding meetings or will hold meetings on how to
manage "the information and the news" out of Orlando so more people
can get more guns and we can have more shootings.

I just saw the # of 50 killed and I broke down for a few minutes. From
an old straight white dude I wish I could do something to take the hurt
away from the GLBT people of this nation and the world. And I am sure
that the club had many straight people in there to party too. I weep for
those people too.

[Evergreen Emerald]

1. ohmygod

Fuck the NRA.

[still_one]

2. No one can justify Assult weapons for civillians

[Botany]

6. And the club had "a good guy w/a gun"* working there too

* a policeman who was armed was working at the club.

[Press Virginia]

32. It wasn't an assault rifle

it just looks like one.

[Dem2]

69. Posts like this

tell me so much.

[Press Virginia]

95. Do they tell you to learn the difference between

How something operates vs what it looks like?

[Hoyt]

104. If it is not one, why do so many gun losers slobber over the damn things. Ban em and gun profiteers.

[Press Virginia]

106. Why do musicians "slobber" over the tools of their hobby?

Why do you live in fear of something that only looks like a military weapon?

[Hoyt]

114. No one slobbers like a gun nut. I have a few guitars -- I can leave them at home and I don't obsess

with them, join the NRA, promote guitars, etc. George zimmerman is not a musician. Nor is your typical gun nut. Maybe if they could play an instrument, they'd get into something better for them and society.

Why do gunners get excited about gunz that look like military weapons?

[Press Virginia]

178. oh the famous Bushmaster Man Card

This is the best you can do? Blame an advertisement for the act of a person who followed a religious ideology?

[Dem2]

180. Nah

I'm blaming people who see an obvious problem and instead of wanting to come up with ideas, they lovingly fondle a device designed to slaughter human beings as fast as they can pull the trigger.

Don't bother to respond, I don't associate those who protect mass-murderers with the Democratic party. Bye.

[Press Virginia]

182. So the obivious problem is all the people who didn't murder anyone on saturday

in the name of an ideology?

[Bad Dog]

132. Why do you live in fear of something that only looks like a military weapon?

Because it's just killed 50 people.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

149. And all by itself????????????

That's amazing!

In reality, the energy involved derives from chemical combustion which is what actually needs to be outlawed.

[Bad Dog]

162. What's amazing is that 50 people are dead and you won't deal with it.

Instead making pathetic jokes about chemical reactions. Does human life mean absolutely nothing to you?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

167. What's more amazing is that you seem to...

...think I'm the all-being master of time, space and dimensions and could, on a whim, solve this problem. Placing the responsibility for the heinous act in Orlando on anyone not the shooter is a waste of effort.

Please realize that control is myth and that gun-control is not really control. Gun-control is actually an exercise which attempts to further remove from any association with the crime those who engage in the lawful business of transferring the ownership of a gun. That could be the manufacturer or distributor. It could be a local sporting goods store or woman who inherits a shotgun she doesn't need or want.

The people who engage in lawful businesses should have a legal means to continue their activities without being presumed criminals. Numerous things can be used to kill and injure.

There are those incidents that can't be predicted. There are times when previously stable people have some kind of break and do horrible things. It's a good idea to assure ourselves that we're not selling a gun to convicted violent criminal. It's a good thing to avoid selling a gun to someone who is mentally unstable enough to have been committed by a judge.

I personally don't think universal background checks will make a big difference but many people who are gun owners will feel better about their activities if they're able to go to a police station or sheriff's office and have a BGC run before they sell or transfer a gun. Of all the folks have guns over 99% are lawful and want to remain so. Access/ability to have a BGC for a gun sale would empower those folks rather than making them feel distrusted. Those who are trusted are more likely to cooperate overall. Cooperation is the key to progress.

[Bad Dog]

168. You're talking absolute nonsense.

If gun control is a myth then why is the homicide rate in America so high compared to that of Britain?

You see a tragedy like this and instead of trying to do something practical about it you desperately cling to your gun, make distasteful jokes and talk a load of nonsense.

Gun control works. It works in Britain, but then again we don't pay any attention to pathetic idiots who need a gun to feel important.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

169. I don't own a gun...

...nor do I pay much attention to folks who avoid logic as if it was an STD.

Those seeking progress by political means need to accept the idea that politics involves compromise. Those unable to compromise on this issue have three options:
a- accept the way things are
b- move to somewhere "better"
c- start a revolution

If it's option c, I hope it will be a peaceful one.

[Bad Dog]

170. You're a complete stranger to logic.

Namely Britain's homicide rate is markedly lower than America's because we have sane gun laws. There's nothing more to be said on the matter.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

171. re: "There's nothing more to be said on the matter."

Probably true. Your faith based claims and assertions are unlikely to change.
Have a nice day.

[Bad Dog]

173. It's evidence based.

You're the one going on flights of fancy.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

184. As I said, have a nice day n/t

[Bad Dog]

186. It's evening over here.

Google 'time zones.'

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

190. Rather have a nice evening

There are still 24 hours in a "day" but you have a pleasant stretch of multiple hours even if you have to sleep through them. The UK is a great place. And, as Sheryl Crow has said, "It's not having what you want, It's wanting what you've got."

[Bad Dog]

195. The UK is a great place.

Thanks in part to the very low levels of gun violence.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

202. Have a great morning as well

Where in the UK are you?

[Bad Dog]

204. I do have a profile you know.

If you click on it, it should tell you where I am.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

206. Now that you mention it..........

[Bad Dog]

205. If you're having problems with my profile how about Shakespeare?

Henry V Act II Sc II.

Now it's a pub. (I don't live in the pub.)

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

207. re: I don't live in the pub.

A pity.

[Bad Dog]

211. It would lose its novelty value after about a week.

They're good places to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

[Straw Man]

196. Something more to be said.

You're a complete stranger to logic.

Namely Britain's homicide rate is markedly lower than America's because we have sane gun laws. There's nothing more to be said on the matter.

Britain's homicide rate was lower than America's before Britain had any gun control whatsoever.



Obviously there are other factors involved.

Furthermore, the US is geographically large and demographically varied. In 2011, four US states had lower homicide rates than England and Wales, including Vermont, one of the least regulated states in the nation for firearms. Ten states had lower rates than Scotland.

[Bad Dog]

198. We weren't exactly awash with guns before laws were introduced post Dunlane.

We don't have so many pathetic individuals who need a gun to make up for something missing, but we ensured that such sad losers would not be able to carry out another Dunblane.

Our children's lives are more important than the inadequacies of social misfits.

[Straw Man]

199. Look at the graph.

Britain began gun control with pistol registration in 1903, about 30 years before the US made any such efforts. Its homicide rate before that was substantially lower than the US rate, and remained so.

Now tell me again how important gun control is. Or would you prefer to just continue ranting about "pathetic losers"?

[Bad Dog]

200. 50 people murdered in Florida and you need to ask.

Never mind, while their families grieve you can have lots of fun colouring in your graph.

[Straw Man]

201. Deflection.

50 people murdered in Florida and you need to ask.

Never mind, while their families grieve you can have lots of fun colouring in your graph.

Murdered by a man who had passed two FBI investigations and had been certified to be an armed security guard. Tell me what gun control measures -- short of making all guns magically disappear -- would have prevented him from carrying out his heinous crime.

My statements stand. Your claims about the efficacy of British gun control are overblown. I have provided evidence of same, which you have ignored.

I can see now that you have to interest in discussing policy or in trying to support your previous statements. You only wish to binge on emotion-driven outrage and a specious sense of moral superiority. Have at it. I'm not interested.

[Press Virginia]

189. How come the Homicide rate is higher in cities/states with the strictest gun control laws?

Go live in Britain if you want to live in a place that's like Britain.

[Press Virginia]

177. No it didn't

the person using it did.

[madinmaryland]

147. How many people die from being attacked by a musical instrument?

Smh.

[Dem2]

136. Thousands of times

I'm not a fucking idiot though, don't you dare play the right-wing nut job game "what's designed to be an assault weapon" game with me. There's a reason for the features that can be attached to these weapons.

[Press Virginia]

179. Yeah...let's look at what the AWB did

removed the flash suppressor, bayonet lug, collapsible stock and outlawed grenade launchers....oh wait, it could still have one of those things as long as it didn't have the dreaded pistol grip.

Now, which one of those items made the rifle less deadly than the one used this past Saturday?

If it doesn't fire on full auto, it's not an assault weapon. That's why no military in the world uses a Bushmaster as its main battle rifle

[gwheezie]

138. I'm pretty sure if it killed 50 people

Not to mention the wounded, it's an assault rifle.

[Press Virginia]

188. It's no more an assault rifle than the pistol the guy also used

words have meaning.

[babylonsister]

159. So please tell me the name of the weapon that

can kill 50 people and injure 50+ people in a short amount of time? Those, those should be banned.

[Press Virginia]

174. A bus....should we ban buses? The weapon didn't kill anyone. The man pulling the trigger did

and you ban a rifle, he'd use a pistol.
The kid at VPI killed 23 kids, using 2 pistols, in a far less crowded and open environment. 50 wouldn't be a stretch.

[whathehell]

49. Agreed a million percent.

[malaise]

3. Yes and fuck those

who hate people for whatever reason

[hrmjustin]

4. The NRA is evil and has blood on it's hands.

[SoCalMusicLover]

54. So Long As They Have Money In Their Pockets

Blood can wash off, Money Is Forever!!

[Protalker]

185. Amen to that!

All the members keep the top in power.

[malaise]

5. Deadliest shooting in American history

at a gay night club.

Thanks NRA, thanks gay haters and bashers!

[malaise]

141. Huh?

Of course not - I should have used the sarcasm thingy

[DCBob]

7. Well said.

[linuxman]

8. Without the NRA, this wouldn't have happened.

Take France for example. No NRA, and such an attack on a night club has never happened!

[Station to Station]

11. Yeah, France with its 1800 shooting deaths per year

definitely has the same problem. 👌🏻

Either Americans are disproportionately demented psychopaths by birth and should not be allowed to leave their shores without undergoing stringent psychological examination, or there's an issue with the way in which firearms are purchased and monitored.

[Marengo]

12. Were the Paris killers Americans, and did they obtain their guns in America?

[Dreamer Tatum]

13. It seems awfully coincidental, doesn't it?

The Paris killers had guns, and they wanted to kill.

Golly. It's almost like if someone wanted to go on a homicidal rampage, laws don't matter much.

[LanternWaste]

213. Compels one to wonder why any laws exist at all if they don't matter muc

Compels one to wonder why any laws exist at all if they don't matter much to anyone who wishes to break them. However, I imagine someone will rationalize a distinction lacking a relevant difference-- sacred cows and tin gods require such logical fallacies.

[Station to Station]

15. No.

But then there 1,800 vs 33,000 tells its own story to anyone with half a brain. You can scale up for population of you like and see what you get.

To defend the manner in which firearms are purchased at the moment is truly demented, and a red flag, frankly. No one can reasonably believe it should be easier to buy a gun than a car - that makes no sense to any rational person anywhere.

[Marengo]

17. The point obviously evades you. Define "red flag".

[Press Virginia]

34. They will blame the gun no matter what

point out the laws and what constitutes a legal purchase, they'll still blame the gun.

[Laha]

74. But to try to defend the gun in any way right now is truly bizarre.

And I use the word bizarre only in the interest of civility.

[Press Virginia]

93. The gun is an inanimate object

It's no more reasonable to blame the gun than it s the car he dove to the club

[Laha]

110. Except he can't pick up the car and swing it around and kill that many people that quickly.

He can't just carry it into the club and corner people with it and pick them off one by one.

He can't carry multiple with him or refuel it with a tiny box in his pocket to carry on the mayhem.

The car wasn't made exclusively for the purpose of killing.

Your comparison lacks much depth in its use of reasoning.

[Press Virginia]

112. If guns were only made for killing, millions of guns have failed to do their job

the point being the gun, like the car, is only as dangerous as the operator.

You wouldn't blame the car because he drove it to the bar but you blame the gun because of the PERSON used it.

Nowhere have you put the responsibility on the man who pulled the trigger if your first reaction is to blame the gun or the gun lobby.

[Laha]

113. I absolutely blame the man who pulled the trigger for the murder of these people

But the silly argument that guns are made for anything other than killing needs to be put to rest.

Sure, not every time a gun is picked up will it be used for the purpose of killing. People need to practice to be able to operate the devices properly - I myself have been to a firing range and enjoyed the experience.

I have also used a gun to put down a sick animal. There is a time and a place for everything.

But these things should be highly restricted and regulated. At least as regulated as cars, whose main purpose is moving people and things from one place to another - even though many have 'failed to do their job' by being used for practice or other purposes.

But for some reason they are not as highly regulated. And I am only responding to people who have been quick to defend guns and the people and policies and practices that promote them - instead of focusing blame on the people who perpetrated the act.

Defending guns is a deflection of blame from the people who promote the environment that promotes these atrocities.

[Press Virginia]

115. Again, you're blaming the inanimate object

Guns are highly regulated, legal sales are controlled.

Your reaction is typical of someone who thinks another law would have kept a person who was licensed to own and carry a gun, for his job, would have prevented that person from taking an inanimate object and murdering people with it.

If he'd used a machete, would you be calling for machete control and complaining about machete regulations? How about a bow and arrow?

[Laha]

117. No, I blame the man who pulled the trigger.

I'm arguing with the people defending the weapon.

He wouldn't have killed 50 people with a machete, or a bow and arrow.

There's a difference.

[Press Virginia]

119. The weapon didn't DO anything. The MAN did

If he'd killed 10 people with a machete or 3 people with a bow and arrow, would you be making arguments for more laws controlling them?

He used a gun, in a place where guns were forbidden....and you think another regulation on the gun is what is needed

[Laha]

120. Thanks for asking instead of putting words into my mouth

My answer is no - they are not efficient instruments of death in the same manner as guns.

It is not a genuine comparison.

[passiveporcupine]

192. Why do you think lawn darts are illegal now?

They were designed for kids and adults to play with, not hurt each other. But kids were getting hurt and at least one was killed by them.

It wasn't the dart's fault, but the kids who used them. And they weren't even intentionally trying to hurt anyone.

Guns are deadly and some guns are far more deadly than others, and should not be available to a normal citizen to purchase. They should be reserved for war, or destroyed and not manufactured any more.

There are less destructive guns that you gun enthusiasts and hunters can play with. There are less destructive guns that people who live on a farm or ranch can have for protection of livestock, or as you mentioned, to put down a suffering animal.

When angry people take a gun to a mass killing, they don't use the pistol, they use the semi-automatic and the gun that can take a large magazine of unending ammo.

There is no need for a semi-automatic and guns with magazines for citizens. They need to be removed from our gun culture and the hands of people who would misuse them. Not all guns. Some are necessary, and some are used for hunting or target practice, or even self defense if you are in a dangerous job. I have no problem with people having a gun if they have a legitimate reason for having one. But it does not need to be a semi-auto, or magazine capable. They should not be on the market, period.

[Press Virginia]

193. Make sure you're first through the door when

You demand forcible seizure of all those guns you want banned.

Oh and see if you can find a right to lawn darts in the constitution

[passiveporcupine]

214. It's pretty twisted to be using times of express horror and sorrow

To defend your hobby and "rights" that were never meant the way they are used today.

I'm done with this discussion. There is no empathy for human life here.

[Press Virginia]

215. Oh yeah...the founders meant for the public to be disarmed and the government

to have guns....that's why they spoke endlessly about an armed populace being a defense against tyranny.


And it's possible to be empathic to the loss of life and still defend the rights that are recognized in the Constitution.

[Straw Man]

197. Legality.

Lawn darts are now illegal because they were created as a child's toy and they proved to be too dangerous for that population. A gun is not a child's toy.

Guns are deadly and some guns are far more deadly than others, and should not be available to a normal citizen to purchase. They should be reserved for war, or destroyed and not manufactured any more.

Despite what you may have been led to believe, AR15s are not "weapons of war." They have never been issued to any army because modern military long arms must be capable of full-auto or burst fire. It is the sine qua non.

There are less destructive guns that you gun enthusiasts and hunters can play with. There are less destructive guns that people who live on a farm or ranch can have for protection of livestock, or as you mentioned, to put down a suffering animal.

I can think of no gun more suited to protecting livestock from packs of coyotes than a semi-automatic centerfire rifle with a scope. Something like an AR15.

When angry people take a gun to a mass killing, they don't use the pistol, they use the semi-automatic and the gun that can take a large magazine of unending ammo.

Cho used pistols at Virginia Tech. Wong used pistols at Binghamton. Hasan used pistols at Fort Hood. The Navy Yard shooter used a pump action shotgun that didn't have a removable magazine. He killed twelve, and would have killed far more if he had attacked a crowded public area rather than an office building.

I have no problem with people having a gun if they have a legitimate reason for having one. But it does not need to be a semi-auto, or magazine capable.

Self-defense is always a legitimate reason, and the best weapon for self-defense is a magazine-capable semi-auto.

The fix for this is not technological. That's a red herring.

[AgingAmerican]

78. Gun's don't kill people

Bullets do...

[Press Virginia]

101. No. The person pulling the trigger kills them

Put a loaded gun on a shelf, it'll sit there forever unless someone or something moves it

[Press Virginia]

33. It's only 33k if you count the people who kill themselves

and what law would prevent someone from killing themselves with their own gun?

And it's not easier to buy a gun than a car.

[athena]

63. Why shouldn't people who kill themselves count?

A gun makes it awfully easy to kill oneself. I have been suicidal, and I can guarantee that if I had a gun, I wouldn't be here today.

[Eleanors38]

71. The Japanese kill themselves at higher rates than in the U.S. What makes it "easy" for them?

[athena]

121. That's a cultural difference.

In Japanese culture, suicide is often seen as an honorable act. Give the Japanese free access to guns, however, and you will see their suicide rate, as high as it is, go up even more.

[TheFrenchRazor]

142. so couldn't the american violence problem also be cultural? nt

[athena]

157. Did you bother to read my post, or did you just respond to the title?

Last edited Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:15 PM - Edit history (1)

The problem is of course cultural. But you can't say, "The Japanese commit suicide, so it's not a problem of guns." You would have to compare Japanese suicides with and without easy availability of guns. I am betting that there would be more suicides in Japan if guns were as unregulated there as they are here.

This is precisely what I said in my previous post. Your comment shows that you are not really here to have a discussion but to make posts with titles that suggest that a mistake of logic was made.

[Laha]

79. This!!!! A million times over.

I am thankful every day I wake up that my government did not make it simple to get hold of a device that would have allowed me to make it that easy to make that decision. I'm not in that sort of danger at this period of my life, but I can never understand the freakish selfishness of people who think their desire for death tools is more important than the many good reasons to make them difficult to access.

I've been to a firing range and I enjoy shooting. I'm not totally against their existence and use - especially for anyone who still needs to hunt to make a living or protect their livestock. But anyone who thinks more guns is the answer to this problem, in my opinion, has a hell of a lot of growing up to do.

[beevul]

82. It isn't a matter of if they should count.

Its a matter of what they should count as.

The point being made is that suicides and homicides are different and require different solutions.

[athena]

122. They are both made easier by free and easy access to guns.

A suicide is just as tragic as a homicide. The dead person's loved ones are just as devastated after a suicide as after a homicide.

[beevul]

124. None of which changes the fact...

None of which changes the fact that suicides are people who choose to end their own lives.

Blaming that on guns or 'gun culture' does a disservice to those making such decisions, by focusing on the instrument rather than the decision. Not something I'd expect from those who claim to want solutions, but definitely something I'd expect from those that just want to get the guns - as if the dead would be better off dying from an OD or a fall from a tall building or bridge.

[athena]

135. Seriously?

You're telling someone who has told you that she used to be suicidal and would have committed suicide if she had a gun, that she is doing a "disservice" to those who choose to commit suicide?

The insensitivity in your post is breathtaking. We're talking about people who are suffering so much that they are considering ending their lives. What they need is easy access to mental health services, not easy access to guns.

When you're considering killing yourself, moments count. If a friend shows up and talks to you, you can get out of the mental state you're in, at least temporarily. If you had a gun in your house at the time, your friend might show up only to find you dead.

This is not a theoretical argument. This is real. People -- sensitive, loving, beautiful people -- die every day because they get suicidal and are able to immediately act on that impulse. We need to do all we can to make life worth living for those people, not give them the tools to let them take their lives more easily.

This whole sub-discussion started with a poster claiming that suicides should not "count" in deaths by gun. If anything is disrespectful of suicidal people, it is that.

[Press Virginia]

97. Would they be less dead if they killed themselves some other way?

The gun was the method, not the problem

There are about 40,000 suicides per year. 25000 of them didn't use a gun

[Laha]

116. Well.. I didn't find another way to kill myself that would have been that easy and available.

I'm a lot less dead than I could be.

So my answer to that is yes.

[Press Virginia]

118. did the lack of a gun solve the problem?

Or did something else do it?

[athena]

123. You're not listening.

The lack of a gun makes suicide much less likely.

You're choosing not to listen to those of us who have been suicidal and have considered various options for killing ourselves. If there had been a gun in my apartment during the years I spent as a depressed graduate student who thought she was stuck in a hole there was no getting out of, I would not be typing these words today. I guarantee you that.

[Press Virginia]

183. If that were true, there wouldn't be 25,000 suicides each year where a gun wasn't used

40,000 people commit suicide and you think the problem is the METHOD they chose to kill themselves.

[athena]

194. That 40,000 number could well be 30,000 if it weren't for guns.

I guess 10,000 is just not a big enough number of lives for you.

[Press Virginia]

209. Only if you think the problem is the gun and

not the depression and hopelessness associated with suicides/attempts.

[athena]

210. And you know this better than someone who has been suicidal herself.

All you've shown here is that you understand nothing about depression and refuse to listen to others.

It's because of attitudes like yours that so many people are dying needlessly. You care more about your own free and unfettered access to guns than about people who lose loved ones because of the easy availability of guns. I can imagine nothing more selfish and self-centered.

[Press Virginia]

216. Yeah, I know nothing about depression. I'll make sure my psychiatrist updates his diagnosis

so I can stop taking my Lexapro and Lithium.

You go on ahead and misidentify the problem. Blame the gun because it's easy.

[dgibby]

164. ONLY 33k?

ONLY?

[Press Virginia]

172. 40k commit suicide each year

Obviously the problem isn't the method they use to kill themselves.

It's dishonest to include suicides in a discussion about gun violence.

[ananda]

62. It could be both and probably is.

Sad to say.

[Orrex]

90. Where did you get that 1,800 number?

This page suggests an average of 133.9 annual gun homicides in France between 2000 and 2009.

Suicide rates are indeed much higher than that (1663 average over the same span), but it's not as though gunmen frequently burst into nightclubs and commit mass suicides.

Where did you get that 1,800 figure? I'm sure that you didn't conflate homicides and suicides in an effort to pad the numbers, obviously.

[Lint Head]

102. To some facts don't matter.

[lancer78]

126. If you base that 1800

on population, you would have to multiply it by 6 as there are 6 times the people in the US than there is in France.

[Botany]

26. Australia enacted one of the largest gun reforms ever nearly 2 decades ago — and gun deaths plummete

http://www.businessinsider.com/australia-gun-control-shootings-2015-10

[linuxman]

36. If those are the only deaths you care about, that's nice.

The fact is, Australia's homicide rate has decreased about the same as every other western country in the same time period, to include the US which hasn't banned jack or shit. Australians simply found other more socially acceptable ways to off each other and the same descending rate as their peers.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2012/08/some-notes-on-claims-about-australias.html

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxVSNwWqu49W6KSelpIo5J_bgi1XHY7II94Zk6txxOfbpw3CN_mLRSOI_H

I should mention that our number of firearms has increased by nearly double in that same period sine their ban.

We are becoming less violent as a whole worldwide.

[Botany]

41. On this day you post "We are becoming less violent as a whole worldwide."

You really need to check yourself.

[linuxman]

50. You know what trends and averages are, right?

Jesus Christ. I'm just going to assume you're being deliberately obtuse, as you're clearly smart enough to operate a computer.

[Botany]

67. Tell them I'm in the bathroom. He's coming. I'm gonna die': Terrified last text son sent to his mom

Now is that a trend or an average?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141485704

[linuxman]

72. Call me when you want to have an actual conversation.

[Dem2]

70. Gun nuts

Had enough of them in my life, and I'm a gun owner. Bye.

[linuxman]

76. Sure you are.

All that really matters is that YOU believe you.

Name calling on the internet. Yessir, I feel the tides a turnin'.

[ileus]

166. Wayne Lapierrer is a french name so it's still the NRA's fault

[stonecutter357]

9. K&R!

[Station to Station]

10. Imagine if cars were around in 1776

I wonder what the roads would look like today given that no license / training would be necessary! Walk in, but a car and you're good to go; oh, and don't worry about being intoxicated...setting a condition like that would infringe on your constitutional right to drive!

Constitution literalists are even more insane than bible literalists. Times change and things evolve, dipshits.

[NastyRiffraff]

14. I can't believe the NRA defenders on DU

It's one thing to own guns and be a hunter. It's quite another to ignore this kind of slaughter in the name of second amendment rights. Was the shooter a member of a well-regulated militia?

[elmac]

20. We need to bring back the ban on assault rifles

and large capacity magazines.

[SwankyXomb]

39. Our Ted DUgents can justify anything

as long as it doesn't infringe on their right to MOAR GUNZ!

[Reter]

56. Well, he was a member of one militia: ISIS

At the very least, he pledged his support.

[jtx]

57. June 8 - ISIS Warned of Florida Attack

ISIS warned of an imminent attack in Florida on June 8.

Why is this not being discussed on the news now, and more importantly, why was it not discussed in advance?

http://news3lv.com/news/nation-world/isis-kill-list-targets-palm-beach-treasure-coast-residents-ex-fbi-agent

WEST PALM BEACH (CBS12) — A pro-Isis group has released a hit list with the names of more than 8,000 peoplemostly Americans.

More than 600-people live in Florida, and one security expert believes that many of those targeted live in Palm Beach County and on the Treasure Coast.

The "United Cyber Caliphate" that hacked U.S. Central Command, 54,000 Twitter accounts and threatened President Barack Obama is the same pro-Isis group that's reportedly created a "kill list" with the names, addresses and emails of thousands of civilian Americans.

Reports of the list came to light online when Vocativ reported the list was shared via the encrypted app, Telegram, and called on supporters to kill.

Former FBI agent-turned lawyer Stuart Kaplan says the threat is especially alarming, because the people on this list are civilians who don't have the security necessary to protect themselves.

"It's going to create some hysteria," he said.

Kaplan believes civilians from our community are on the list.

"I would suspect a head of a hospital or, perhaps, a local community leader. Those are the individuals that may appear on the list--or just a local banker or local school teacher--someone who, for some reason, was in the public eye."

Kaplan is concerned the list will inspire "lone wolf" style attacks.

"If in fact a sympathizer gets ahold of this list and is readily able to identify you as being his neighbor and, then, decides (because they're a sympathizer) to go out and do something horrific to you, there is no way to calculate the potential or to prevent that."

The list has not yet been made public.

We reached out to the FBI, the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office and Martin County Sheriff's Office to see how credible they view the threat and what action they might be taking.

We are awaiting their response.

According to the Martin County Sheriffs office,the FBI is aware of this and the agency will work closely with the Joint-Terrorism Task Force to keep citizens safe.

[AlbertCat]

88. I can't believe the NRA defenders on DU

Neither can I. They are so very clueless... they can't even see that their attitude toward obtaining weapons is the problem. Their posts reveal that they have a completely inappropriate notion of what a gun is and represents. They seem to think it's some kind of toy or kitchen gadget.... anything but a tool who's only purpose is to kill.

[Skittles]

151. gun humpers are the biggest cowards on the planet

fuck them all

[Bettie]

109. We're supposed to forget that part

of the 2nd Amendment.

They only care about the second part, that they interpret to mean they get all the guns they want to have without any restrictions or rules.

[MillennialDem]

16. Clearly the fault of violent video games and not enough good guys with guns. Aka "buy more guns!"

[Baitball Blogger]

18. Orlando has been described as a big city controlled by a small

government. It is a city that tries to reach into the 21st Century, one individual at a time. That makes anyone or group that doesn't conform or shines too brightly, a target.

I did worry for the young because they are transforming the city center. They are a hope for the future of this city. I hope we can pull together and work to pass gun control as retaliation, because retaliation is the only concept that gun supporters understand.

[Kang Colby]

19. Guns are banned in clubs/bars in Florida. n/t

[HockeyMom]

21. Would not surprise me if our Florida legislators

now call for eliminating that ban on guns in clubs/bars. Same as they did after Sandy Hook and wanted to allow Teachers to carry guns during school. Of course, the NRA would love it. MORE good guys with guns! Apparently, one good guy with a gun is not enough.

[getagrip_already]

75. Carrying a gun while intoxicated....

Is a felony in most states. The band are still a good idea.

[Martin Eden]

23. Not sure what your point is, or if you have one other than that simple statement of fact.

Obviously, someone who murders 50 people (regardless of where guns are allowed) is breaking the law.

This brings to mind the argument against gun regulations based on the fact that Chicago has some of the strictest regulations but nevertheless a horrible rate of gun violence.

What that argument (I'm not saying it's your argument) misses is that guns are more easily acquired outside the city or just across the border in Indiana at gun shows. As long as we don't have a consistent nationwide set of regulations, guns will continue to proliferate and be fairly easy to obtain by gangbangers or terrorists or nut jobs.

And mass shootings will continue.

There is no quick fix because of the sheer proliferation of guns already in our society, but I don't understand why the vast majority of people don't insist we take measures to slow the bleeding.

[Kang Colby]

28. Why don't they have the same or higher level of homicides in Indiana? n/t

[Martin Eden]

42. Why do you think they don't? n/t

[Kang Colby]

45. Chicago is U.S. HQ for two large and violent gang networks.

Chicago has been home to gangster organizations for over 100 years.

[Martin Eden]

47. And Indiana is not.

Pretty obvious, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make by asking the question.

[Press Virginia]

31. He had to pass a background check

that's required by Federal and State laws.

Unless he was a felon or prohibited from buying a gun, no law would have prevented him from legally purchasing a gun.

[Martin Eden]

44. What kind of guns did he use and how many bullets in the clips?

Background checks aren't the only regulations that will save lives.

[Press Virginia]

58. What laws would have saved their lives?

Outlaw the gun? Outlaw the magazine?
Do you think a guy who murdered 50 people would care about those laws?

[Gore1FL]

86. Maybe the person selling him the stuff does. nt

[Press Virginia]

94. Only if the sale was illegal

which means no law would have stopped this massacre

[Gore1FL]

103. Your premise was that laws would do no good. Now you argue the laws don;t exists

Please make up your mind.

[Press Virginia]

107. No. I asked what law would have saved the lives of those who were murdered

last night.
Clearly the law against murder didn't do anything.

[Gore1FL]

108. You asked "Do you think a guy who murdered 50 people would care about those laws?"

I suggested that the chain was bigger than that one person.

You changed the argument to no law would have stopped this one issue.

[Press Virginia]

111. Okay...people who murder, don't care what laws are passed

so what law do you want to pass to prevent murderers from using legally purchased guns?

The point is, only law abiding people are going to be affected

[Martin Eden]

125. What type of guns did he use and how many rounds per clip?

Pretty hard for one person to kill 50 without large clips and the ability to reload quickly.

Banning semi-automatic guns and large magazines would save lives.

[Press Virginia]

176. Kid at VPI used 2 pistols with 12 rounds each and multiple mags. Killed 23 people

You can ban anything you like....how you going to get people to comply with the law?

[NastyRiffraff]

148. So, we're supposed to throw up our hands

and allow cities to become the wild, wild west? If criminals don't obey laws, why have any laws at all? Murderers will murder, rapists will rape, burglars will burgle...nothing to do with us, right?

[Press Virginia]

175. the price of living in a free society

you can either allow law abiding people to take the steps to defend themselves or make believe more laws will make the lawless behave

[Mojorabbit]

73. He was a security guard with a state firearm license

so he passed all the background tests. What I want to know is.. if he was on the fbi's radar why he was not red flagged. This happened a couple of miles from my house.

[TeddyR]

127. So would banning alcohol

In fact, banning alcohol would save many more lives. Do you support an alcohol ban?

[Logical]

25. Not a fan of you but I agree, gun bans do nothing except prevent honest people from having guns. nt

[LittleGirl]

22. My husband

had to hold me while I sobbed. hugs.

[Botany]

29. When the # 50 came on the t.v. I broke down for a minute or two

[LittleGirl]

65. I am a mess

ever since. my gut is all twisted up. I am going through anger and frustration and misery for my fellow humans.

[Botany]

66. This might help a little bit

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017384618

[davidthegnome]

24. Agreed... FUCK THE NRA

Time for our people, progressive, centrist, moderate, liberal... whatever they might be, to start uniting behind gun control. Enough is enough - and damn, we have had more than enough. My faith in humanity has taken a severe beating today...

[TeddyR]

40. What type of gun control do you propose

That is both constitutional and would have prevented this?

[davidthegnome]

89. Assuming from your response...

that you know more about guns and gun control than I do (which isn't much) why don't you help me out with that? I don't know what I would propose. What would YOU propose? Because, something has to change. Maybe many things have to change - but this should not be happening. I don't know if we can ever make it impossible, or make it stop completely... but damn, we can do something. We have to do something. Otherwise, we will keep getting stories like this, because some asshole had a gun - a powerful weapon, and by himself - was able to slaughter fifty people.

I do not oppose your right to hunt or defend yourself, I absolutely though, oppose anyone's right to go deer hunting with an elephant rifle. Or to walk around carrying assault weapons capable of such high intensity fire. Such weapons belong in the hands of the military, police, people who are trained in their use, monitored - and regulated. The kind of out of control sales, insanely easy access and availability... we can do something about that.

As you likely know more about such things than I do, I would ask that you suggest something that might help enlighten me as to what actually can be done. If your answer is nothing, then we are not going to agree.

[TeddyR]

91. I personally think that if you want to stop

Or lower every day gun violence then you have to focus on alleviating poverty and reverse the war on drugs. No idea how you stop religious zealots from committing terrorist attacks - France has much more stringent gun laws and they suffered a similar tragedy in which the terrorists used automatic weapons, which aren't readily available here and have never been used in a terrorist attack. I honestly think that education and enlightenment makes a huge difference.

[Press Virginia]

27. Why is the NRA more responsible than his religious beliefs?

[beevul]

80. Because gunz...

Obviously.

[TheFrenchRazor]

143. oops... not supposed to say that here... nt

[Ms. Yertle]

30. The shooter was licensed

to carry as a security guard. He carried guns as part of his employment. I really don't know if that includes the legal right to carry an assault rifle on the job, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Straw Man]

217. Depends on where you work.

The shooter was licensed

to carry as a security guard. He carried guns as part of his employment. I really don't know if that includes the legal right to carry an assault rifle on the job, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Security guards at nuclear power plants carry rifles. Mateen worked for an agency that provides guards to such facilities, although I don't know that he ever worked in one.

In New York, nuke plant guards' rifles are AR15 semi-autos, and therefore not "assault rifles." AFAIK, they are exempt from New York's 10-round magazine capacity limit, as are most law enforcement personnel. I don't know about other states.

[onecaliberal]

35. Fuck the hate and bigotry and fuck every last asshole who pushes it.

[NCTraveler]

37. Fuck the NRA and gun humpers. Nt

[smirkymonkey]

38. I have no words for this sickness.

Something needs to be done about the gun problem in this country. WTF will it take?

[etherealtruth]

59. People actually valuing human lives more than their precious weaponry

[Fumesucker]

98. Or maybe they could value human life more than their preciious religion

There are plenty of layers to this onion.

[etherealtruth]

99. There are, but the consistent commanality is access to weaponry

We can work on a lot of things simultaneously

[TheFrenchRazor]

144. no it isn't; it's violence lovers and nutbaggery; lots of people have access to weapons. nt

[Stuart G]

43. k and r...nt

[Just reading posts]

46. Fuck the shooter.

[kentuck]

191. Fuck the Republicans.

For not having the courage to stand up to these people.

[rladdi]

48. The Republicans and the NRA and ALEC.or will not allow any bill to be passed

banning this weapon. And Florida Republicans have passed bills that allow murders with any charges being placed. One guy has murdered 3 people, shot in the back, and used the " Stand my Ground" law to not being charged. He is free to murder more. We only have FELON Gov. Scott for signing these bills

[rladdi]

51. Only our massive voting in November can change this situation. Democrats much

turn out big and strong to ensure the House and Senate gets flips. This is in our national security to rid the GOP in the states and DC. VOTE SMART

[maindawg]

52. The constant dog whistle drum beat attacking minorities

They attack LGBT they attack the poor they attack POC they attack women they attack pot smokers. That's what they do since they decided we don't need the fairness doctrine. Thanks you Ronald Reagon. Thank you neocon billionaires who took over our republic in 1879. This is what you wrought. When you deregulated everything and worked to destroy unions and the middle class. When you made us a nation of poor people who blame one another for our misery. This the Reagon revolution result. Welcome to a typical Sunday morning in America.
Now they will blame ISIS whatever. Ronald Reagon and his henchmen his billionaire owners are to blame .

[craigmatic]

53. It sounds terrible to say but

the only way gun laws will change is if a group of rich or politically connected people or their families get shot up.

[dubyadiprecession]

55. The NRA also claims objects such as cars are used to kill people...

So when it comes to mass murder, why do the nut cases prefer to kill with guns?

[Duckhunter935]

60. Fuck the shooter, I hope he rots in a special hell

[Crunchy Frog]

61. This is a natural consequence of the NRA agenda.

We can look foreward to more and bigger mass shootings as long as we continue as a gun saturated and fixated society.

I hope the 2A people on here are pleased with themselves.

[Nancyswidower]

83. This freak was a Federaly background checked "security guard" for a Co.

that has Fed security contracts.

Also pledged allegiance to Isis in a 911 cal per reporting.
I'd bet my monthly beer budget that Isis would hate US private citizens having access to firearms

[TeddyR]

129. Or the Democratic Party agenda?

After all, the official platform supports and individual right to keep and bear arms.

[MadDAsHell]

64. Fuck Islamic extremism. nt

[TheFrenchRazor]

145. agreed. nt

[turbinetree]

68. And I weep for the families and friends---------------------

this country is a outright shameless------------------it is being run by an A or F rating from a group(s), that says that a AR15 is a sporting rifle-------------------a sporting rifle for what----------------------






50+

[rockfordfile]

77. I agree and to consevative religion

[ileus]

81. Preach it my brother!

The NRA should be a terrorist watch list. We need their membership information to know what persons to add to the list...

[Nancyswidower]

137. What would be the reason for the Terrorist designation?

4thA protections should be ignored for members? You couldn't make me join the NRA but
Just asking what your justification is that won't be used against us for disclosure of memberships

[ileus]

153. No it's to be used against you for when the time comes to round the guns up.

[Nancyswidower]

154. So...for confiscation purposes...not for factual reasons. Got'cha

[ileus]

158. Duh!....of course.

[AntiBank]

165. repeal of 2nd amendment would result in a coast to coast

civil war with 10s of thousands probably 100s of thousands of deaths if you tried confiscation. It will never happen.

so not a legitimate discussion on that fantasy

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

84. If only we had gun laws like France.

If nobody can get guns like this legally, then a market will emerge to supply the demand. The war on drugs is an example of how well these will work.

Radical extremists, criminal gangs, cartels, should have no problem getting guns through our porous borders.

Regardless of whatever meetings the NRA is holding or not.

[Angel Martin]

85. Agree completely

any country with an illegal immigration problem is not going to be able to stop gun smuggling

[oneshooter]

187. But according to the government

There is no problem with illegal (undocumented) immigration.

[jtx]

87. Islamic Militant - Focus on the Threat

Reuters has a short reference to it being suspected Islamic attack.

"Asked if the FBI suspected the gunman might have had inclinations toward militant Islam, including a possible sympathy for Islamic State, Ronald Hopper, an assistant FBI agent in charge, told reporters: "We do have suggestions that the individual may have leanings toward that particular ideology. But right now we can't say definitively.”

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-nightclub-idUSKCN0YY08B

Here is a clip from CBS news:

"A U.S. intelligence source told CBS news senior investigative producer Pat Milton that Islamic terrorism is being investigated as a possible motive in the shooting due to several indicators including the style of the attack, which had similarities to the attacks in Paris in November 2015 and Brussels in March. The gunman put up a protracted gun battle with police and was heavily armed, the source said.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pulse-nightclub-shooting-orlando/

This is like the Paris attacks, you can make all of the gun laws you want to and it will not stop Islamic militants from being trained and armed with whatever they want.

In Paris and Belgium, the Islamic militants attacked with full auto AK’s which are not legal for anyone in the EU. How did their gun laws not prevent that?

There is also indications that he had military training, which would explain the deadliness of the attack.

There was San Bernadino and now this, before that there was Fort Hood, Chattanooga, Boston, and there will more to come.

Focus on the threat.

[ciaobaby]

92. This is heartbreaking.

It is so hard to hear the same ole same ole - we pray, we offer support, we study, we do everything but take action.
I think we need an immediate moratorium on gun and bullet sales.
We need legislative action to at the very least amend or strike the 2nd amendment.

I don't actually believe any of this will happen - but one can dream.

[TeddyR]

130. Trump wants an immediate moratorium

On Muslims.

[jpak]

96. Fuck 'em

yup

[spanone]

100. k&r...

[Scurrilous]

105. @#$% the NRA.

@#$% Gun Huggers.

[freebrew]

128. Don't forget...

the evangelist RW religious fucks that are behind it all.

Their hatred hangs around their necks, IMO.

And, Fuck the NRA.

[TeddyR]

131. How are RW evangelists

Responsible for Islamist terrorism? That's ridiculous.

[freebrew]

133. IDK...

I guess I got that patrick bastard on my mind...

I need another beer..

[Botany]

146. nice try ......

"Why wasn't there someone in there who could have stopped that bastard"

There was somebody there with a gun. He was a policeman too.

[craigmatic]

152. Who should we be more mad at ISIS or the NRA?

Then the question becomes what do we do now?

[Skittles]

155. they both represent gun humping assholes

THEY ARE BOTH A PROBLEM

[Rex]

156. Agree 100%. Fuck the NRA, it might have been a hunting club at one time but now

it is full of RWing terrorists that worship the trigger.

[sarcasmo]

160. Kick

[Maru Kitteh]

161. Kick and agree. FUCK the NRA.

[FreeState]

163. K&R Fuck the NRA #BanAssultRiffles n/t

[LanternWaste]

212. The NRA is doing is job: branding tragedy as a profit mechanism...

The NRA is doing is job effectively and efficiently: branding tragedy as a profit mechanism and preventing the CDC from gun safety and gun violence research.

Smith & Wesson stocks jumped 11% yesterday while Sturm, Ruger & Company shares rallied 8%. The NRA certainly knows how to stoke the fear of idiots to better line the coffers of the industry.