I think this stuff about seeing 2 guys kiss as a motivation is ridiculous

[ellenrr]

The "redeemed" Brian Williams on msnbc has brought it up a couple of times in the few minutes I've been watching.
They should unredeem him.
If someone is angered by seeing something, at the most, maybe they punch them. not saying that is ok.
But they do not go out and shoot up a gay nightclub.
This guy was motivated by radical Islam (IS) is what I am thinking, he thot he would go to heaven for getting rid of what he considered "unclean" people.

And forget all the "mental health" stuff.
Millions of people in the US suffer from anxiety depression and other mental distress.
It is easier to count how many do NOT. It is after all the condition of modern times.

Why is it so difficult to see this guy as in a war, just like people in Iraq who blow up 50-60 people every day?

In the US of course this huge horrible death toll could be prevented thru gun laws.
which won't happen.

[HooptieWagon]

1. The father sounds like a wacko.

Last edited Sun Jun 12, 2016, 08:05 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm not buying the story either. Gunman was unhinged and homophobic for a while...he didn't suddenly flip out by seeing two guys kissing. Sounds to me like the son was radicalized under his father.

[left-of-center2012]

2. Brian Williams

Wasn't he in a helicopter that got shot out of the sky in some war zone?

[Igel]

3. Why?

Because you can't understand it?

I couldn't understand why a student would throw herself across the table to punch a kid because of a look, but it happened. Instead of thinking, "Gee, given my assumptions, how could I get to that point?" try, "Given that this happened, what must the minimum assumptions be?" (Just the minimum; it's easy to go with really outrageous ones, but admitted some assumptions have to go to sorting out a definition of "minimum".)

[ellenrr]

6. WTF are you talking about

[davidthegnome]

14. I'll second that question

And raise another WTF

[Rex]

4. That kind of hatred is irrational and bred from ignorance.

People kill other people over a pair of shoes, daily. I agree, it is ridiculous...welcome to the world of a fanatical fundamentalist.

[Aerows]

5. As a lesbian, I don't know a single, solitary

gay person that hasn't experienced abuse at the hands of a homophobe. I personally know people that were bashed on the street. I've been harassed, myself, for having the audacity to hold hands with my girlfriend in the French Quarter for heaven's sake.

If you get harassed in the French Quarter, where there are no laws just suggestions, imagine how awful it is in other places.

[LostOne4Ever]

7. I think it was motivated by both homophobia and fundamentalism. It's not an either or deal nt

[AntiBank]

9. Islamic fundamentalism as well as the mainstream culture of ALL countries

where Islam itself is the dominant religion ARE homophobic at structural societal bedrock levels.

The West has underwent centuries of moderation in terms of social power structures and still homophobia is rampant today. In the "never-having-a-reformation" Islamic world, where majorities see the Q'uran as the infallible word of Allah, vast homophobia percolates through the collective psyche of the majority of people.

[New Orleans Strong]

16. Oke Doke -

Just for fun, let us all replace Islamic fundamentalism with Christian fundamentalism. And show your work.

[AntiBank]

17. I detest all religion, but I am only dealing with Islam atm, as that was a principal factor here

[New Orleans Strong]

19. AntiBank!

I loved your post. I should have been clearer. Half the anti-sharia crowd is going all sharia right now. I'm looking at you Dan Patrick...

[AntiBank]

21. here's a provocative statement: I think a LOT of "christians" are going to have little issue

with this shooting because gays were the principal target. Remove the fact this fucker was an ISIS inspired Muslim (which causes some cognitive dissonance in the bastards) and a sizable minority would either shrug or condone. As in "Wages of sin" and all.

Maybe they will even with the Islamic ties........

[New Orleans Strong]

25. Looking at you Dan Patrick!

He seems nice -

[uppityperson]

8. U.S. officials: No evidence of direct Islamic State link to Orlando shooting

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-islamic-state-eviden-idUSKCN0YY0Q2

(clip)
The FBI official cautioned, however, that proving the suspected link to radical Islamism required further investigation.

Three U.S. officials familiar with the investigation into the massacre said that no evidence had yet been found showing a direct link with Islamic State or any other militant group.

There is “no evidence yet that this was directed or connected to ISIS. So far as we know at this time, his first direct contact was a pledge of bayat (loyalty) he made during the massacre," said a U.S. counter-terrorism official, referring to a 911 call the suspect made on Sunday.
The official spoke on condition of anonymity.

A U.S. intelligence official said it was not unexpected that Islamic State would claim responsibility given that the group has been suffering serious losses of fighters and territory in Iraq and Syria. "The fact that a website connected to Daesh applauded it doesn't mean anything," said the U.S. intelligence official, using an Arabic language acronym for Islamic State. "They are losing on their home turf, and it's not surprising if they're looking for some kind of twisted victory."...

[dflprincess]

15. Thank you

I find it hard to believe it had direct link if only because it's Orlando. Let's face it, there are other targets there that would strike more fear into more Americans that the club did -- spots that radical, right wing Americans (ala the Lt. Governor of Texas) wouldn't post you "reap what you sow" comments about.

[goldent]

36. "They are losing on their home turf, and it's not surprising...

if they're looking for some kind of twisted victory."

We hear all the time that some act of ISIS means they are losing and are desperate. I hate that logic -- to me it makes us look like we are rationalizing, trying to put some positive spin on it.

[TwilightZone]

10. I find it perfectly believable. Besides, there can be more than one motive. It doesn't have to be

one or the other. It can be both and/or any of a thousand others.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. The father also said it had nothing to do with religion.

So it was totally non-religious based homophobia? Is that supposed to be any better, or different even?

I think it was all of the above. It's not a stretch to say that radical islam is also virulently homophobic.

[TrogL]

12. Until you've walked in our shoes...

Years ago my partner and I were having lunch in a fairly swanky restaurant. To our astonishment we could hear a patron muttering to himself then working his way up to a towering rage about the [insert homophobic rant].

We alerted our waiter who spoke to him, listened to another tirade, then threw him out.

If he hadn't intervened, I suspect we would have been attacked.

[Bluenorthwest]

13. The father is offering excuses, he believes seeing that kiss to be righteous motivation for

violence. The father agrees with his hateful son, they share a hateful philosophy. They worship hate.

[renate]

37. yup... I find it hard to believe this wouldn't have happened if he hadn't seen that one kiss

It's telling that the father thinks there could possibly be ANY justification for this whatsoever.

[justiceischeap]

18. Listen, I agree, in some cases, that radical fundamentalism is the cause of crimes

however, in this case, we just don't know that. His ex-wife called him mentally unstable, his father (who seems like his own special nut job) claims it was because he saw two men kissing... The gov't is stating, so far, they aren't finding evidence of his radicalization so, we just don't really know his motivation at this point.

What we do know is that a man bought an AR-15 within the past week, took that weapon into a LGBTQ club and killed and wounded a shitload of members of the LGBTQ community. We do know this is a hate crime.

We also know that in the past six months the the Christian Right has introduced 200+ anti-LGBT bills and yet the sole blame, by so many is on Islam. We have our very own problem within the United States. We have a problem, despite marriage equality, of hate speech and hateful legislation against the LGBTQ community and that seeps like sewage into our every day consciousness without our even knowing it. There's a low-level hum of homophobia that is rampant in the United States and to ignore that, to blame what happened today solely on Islam is a huge part of the problem.

[oberliner]

22. Is there evidence that he chose the location because it was a gay club?

As opposed to just any dance club with many people crowded together.

[justiceischeap]

23. What does that matter?

Does his choosing this by random discount any of what I wrote? No, it's still a hate crime -- I know this because the FBI and President Obama told me (and the nation) so. Have the GOP not proposed 200+ anti-lgbt bills in the last 6 months? Yes, they have. Do we not have a problem with homophobia in the US that has nothing to do with radical Islam? Yes, we do. It's been evidenced several times today on DU.

However, someone from Orlando that knows the area better would be better suited to address how ample the club scene is in that immediate area. Not knowing where the shooter lived and his route to the club, I personally can't state whether or specifically chose this location because of the LGBTQ aspect or if it was a club of opportunity.

[oberliner]

24. Just curious

If he deliberately targeted gay people or if he was just looking for a crowded gathering that was a soft target.

Both are frightening and horrific possibilities.

[HooptieWagon]

29. I'm curious about the target choice too.

The guy drove about 90-100 miles. Was that particular gay club chosen for some reason?

[justiceischeap]

27. So I just checked out the area on Google street view

and it seems to be the only club in the area--meaning, there aren't any nearby. However, there is another "soft" target nearby, the hospital is right down the street.

[HooptieWagon]

31. But the guy drove all the way from Ft Pierce.

There certainly are soft targets closer to home, inc many Synagogues in nearby Palm Beach.

[missingthebigdog]

33. Thank you!

You did an excellent job of explaining what is been bouncing around in my brain all day today.

The problem, at its core, is that there are people that it is okay to hate, if your religion says so. And that we, as a country, allow that under the category of freedom of religion.

And while this is neither the time nor the place to address our behavior and attitudes toward those of the Islamic faith, we should, sometime soon, ask ourselves if our behavior is contributing to the isolation that some of these young men clearly feel.

[bhikkhu]

20. I imagine his real motivation was hatred

which, as feelings tend to be, may have just been a condition in his mind needing something to attach to. Religion is often very good at authoritatively directing hatred at one thing or another, but cultural traditions are also capable of give plenty of direction.

"Why do people hate" may be a mental health question, but I don't think an act such as this could be commited without hatred. Of course, hatred can be taught as well.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

26. That anecdote is just a symptom of a larger disease

Of course no one decides "Two guys kissing! I'm going to kill 50 people and myself now!". This shit brews and festers for a long time.

And his asshole father stirred the pot. Of that I have no doubt.

[ck4829]

28. Murder generally is ridiculous

Murdering your neighbors over a parking space is ridiculous

Murdering a church of strangers over blurbs you read on a racist website is ridiculous

Murdering people over "baby parts" is ridiculous

And that tool murdering people in Norway over the "cultural Marxism" conspiracy theory he believed in is doubly ridiculous

[Ned_Devine]

30. Seeing 2 people kiss motivates me to kiss the person I'm with. Funny how different brains work, eh?

[Fumesucker]

34. Maybe he didn't have anyone to kiss and was fighting urges he had been taught were evil?

I happened to Google "Why don't we do it in the road" the Beatles song recently and found out that McCartney wrote it in India after watching two monkeys copulate in the middle of the street in about ten seconds and then both go on as if nothing had happened.

He was struck by the ease with which the monkeys dealt with sex versus the immense amount of time and emotional drama humans put into it and moved to write the tune I mentioned.

I did a lot of reading last year on mental aberrations and what struck me the most is just how many ways human consciousness can go off the rails.

[liberalmuse]

32. He was angered by seeing two guys kiss...

but had no problem seeing the blood of his victims or hearing the agonized screams of people dying and in pain. Two people in love kissing apparently is worse than massacring and maiming 100 people to some. I will never understand it. Religion is a scourge.

[Mike Nelson]

35. I think...

...the father learned it was a "gay nightclub" and recalled the "kiss" incident. Brains work that way, even when dumb. The killer is definitely psychotic, though, with or without Islam.

[Jesus Malverde]

38. There is a need to spin this in a certain way as to maintain existing narratives.

Disturbing and very insulting.

[beachbum bob]

39. homophobia crosses religions, we have same kind of crazy with some christians and there are

many examples of pastors preaching death, hell and damnation of gays to their congregation....this is hate...and murdering 50 people in a gay night club is a hate crime and not a islamic terrorism.....that was just a rationalization by the killer

[ileus]

40. It's our way of not blaming Islam and deflect it towards our true enemy...

Christians, Trump, GOP, NRA and guns.