Don't play politics with an LGBT massacre

[Prism]

Don't assign this to the thing you dislike. Don't use our lives as toys for your agenda. We know these facts.

A fundamentalist Muslim with an assault rifle attacked a gay club during Pride month.

That is all we know.

I've already seen people going, "Well, Republicans!"

Stop.

Guns are a problem. Fundamentalism is a problem. Homophobia is a problem.

Address the problems.

But stop having so much fun, you ghouls.

[Skittles]

1. fun?

[Prism]

5. Some people love this

Because they think it confirms their various world views.

I'm not entertained.

[Skittles]

31. I would not call it FUN

[Aerows]

32. I'd call it something with the letters

f and u in them, but it wouldn't be "fun".

Heartbreaking.

[passiveporcupine]

52. I think this day has been shattered for most DU members

[Aerows]

64. Agreed.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. I would and I'm getting alerted for saying so. I'd say people are getting their bigot jollies.

Their exploitation high. And fuck them for that.

[Skittles]

44. heaven forbid people would be upset over a mass shooting

YET ANOTHER ONE

[Bluenorthwest]

65. If they were upset that would be one thing but they are exploiting it, not empathizing with

the LGBT community and alerting on us for being upset because it is all about them.

[Skittles]

69. I have no doubts that gun humpers LOVE alerting

[Aerows]

84. Dare to stand up and say something when you are being harassed on DU?

Well, there's a big hide in your future.

I can't believe Skinner is encouraging this horse shit to go on, especially since we witness 50 *people* die.

It's not a goddamn game.

It's not a joke.

50 fucking lives of people that probably many of us knew were exterminated like so much rubbish.

There isn't a goddamn thing in the world that is funny or fair about it, and those rubbing salt in the wounds can go straight to hell.

[bvf]

51. Yes, fun.

A lot of people revel in shit like this.

Starting with sick pro-NRA assholes, already arguing for even further easing of gun laws. The insanity grows with each occurrence, and DU is far from immune.

[Aerows]

85. It is bad enough that we might have friends or family that are collateral damage

It's fucking worse when people are allowed to go out of their way to be complete assholes about it and rub salt in the wounds.

I don't know who in the hell thinks that is funny, but a decent human being wouldn't react that way.

A decent goddamned person wouldn't allow it to flourish in their "house".

[oberliner]

2. We don't know that it was a fundamentalist Muslim

That is not an established fact.

[Prism]

6. When you call 911 and declare for ISIS

We can assume a little bit.

[oberliner]

11. ISIS has admirers who are not fundamentalist Muslims

He also could've made that 911 call for reasons we don't yet know.

[Prism]

14. *blinks*

Sure.

[oberliner]

17. Just wait until there is more information

There is not really enough evidence to assert as fact that this person was a fundamentalist Muslim.

It's certainly a strong possibility, but it's not an established fact.

[Prism]

22. I understand where you're coming from

And your advice is sound. I will wait and see.

I want to get really angry at you and unleash lots of expletives, but I get what you're saying. We'll see.

[oberliner]

29. Thanks

I appreciate the lack of expletives!

[noiretextatique]

99. Please do so

I am rather leery of the ISIS connection. But he most definitely was a homophobic asshole.

[Takket]

70. he called 911 to announce his allegiance to ISIS

officials have already confirmed that.

[oberliner]

71. Right

But that phone call in and of itself does not make a person a fundamentalist Muslim.

[Albertoo]

76. Is ISIS a fundamentalist Muslim group in your opinion?

If someone pledges their allegiance to ISIS, it would pretty much make it an established fact they themselves feel too be fundamentalist Muslims.

Now you might dispute their feeling based on your opinion of what fundamentalist Islam should be, but that would become a rather arcane discussion.

[oberliner]

80. Yes

But people can claim allegiance to them without being fundamentalist Muslims.

Statements from the killer's ex-wife and others seem to indicate that he was not particularly religious.

[Albertoo]

81. You didn't read my post

I exactly explained why it would be illusory (arcane) to want to argue that pledging allegiance to a fundamentalist group does not constitute proof of radicalism.

Besides, not being very observant is not the same as not believing in the radical strain of Islam, it's just proof of a lack of discipline or laziness.

[oberliner]

82. Yes, I did

Your argument is not convincing.

A person calling 911 and saying they pledge allegiance to ISIS does not make that person a fundamentalist Muslim. They could have mental problems. They could be lying. They could admire ISIS for reasons unrelated to religion.

There would need to be additional supporting evidence to reach the conclusion that this person was a fundamentalist Muslim.

To this point, no such evidence has been presented, and some evidence to the contrary has.

[Albertoo]

87. ISIS members fit your objections

- They could have mental problems.
- They could be lying. (just wanting to indulge in 'legal' psychopatic murdering)
- They could admire ISIS for reasons unrelated to religion (like hating the US)

Now, they still would be members of a fundamentalist Muslim group,
and discussion on the fine print of their motivation would be specious.

[oberliner]

92. Is there evidence that he was a member of the group?

Or just that he made a single 911 call stating support for them?

Have you seen or heard additional evidence supporting the claim that he was a member of this fundamentalist Muslim group other than the one phone call?

[Albertoo]

104. Yes, there is additional evidence: ISIS claimed the shooter as one of their own

How much more evidence would you request?

To have a pic of the shooter in bed with al Baghdadi, the ISIS leader?

[Separation]

103. I dunno

ISIS has a pretty good track record of throwing, burning, beheading, and shooting homosexuals.

Im not sure where you are coming from in trying to defend this monters views?

[frankieallen]

97. why do some think denying this was Islamic terrorism makes them somehow more

enlighted than the rest of us?
Why don't you just stick your head in the fuckin sand?

[oberliner]

98. It is likely that this was Islamic terrorism

But it is possible that it wasn't. I don't like rushing to conclusions a day or two into the investigation.

Why not wait until more details are made available before making any definitive statements?

[840high]

102. ...!100++++

[bonemachine]

100. It doesn't really matter what kind of Muslim he was.

In any case, the instant move to Muslim baiting is fucking disgusting


Pitting one vulnerable minority against another is not good, and it plays right into the hands of Trump and his ilk. Not only that, but the folks who fall for it are not the brightest, and often anti-Muslim violence ends up directed at folks who aren't even Muslim and just happen to have the wrong skin color.


I say this as an atheist-leaning agnostic who strongly believes the world would be a better place without any religions.

[lancer78]

3. I don't know why they Republicans

were involved when it was reported the shooter was a registered Democrat.

[Aerows]

4. Sad, pissed, discouraged

all of those things but resoundingly standing back in shock that people can be so damn awful.

[Prism]

7. It's our family

My ex, who worked for Disney, lost at least two friends. He's confirming others.

I'm just fucking devastated.

[Aerows]

9. It's horrible.

Feel free to lean on me if you need to, Prism. I lived in Florida for seven years, and probably know somebody that was gunned down.

Just when I thought things were getting better for us.

But like I said, you are welcome to lean on me and I'll do the best I can over the internet to provide support.

We are stronger as a community, but this hurts like hell.

[Prism]

20. I was really relieved at first

My instinct was, track down Florida friends, make sure they're all right. And they were, so whew.

But then their friends were not alright. And my ex is breaking my heart. He's lost two. He may lose more. And he's breaking down over it. I wish I could hug him.

This is our family.

As you said, "Just when I thought things were getting better for us." After marriage equality, I admit, I got a bit complacent. And living in San Francisco, it's super easy to think everything's fine.

But it's not. And we're reminded in this horrible fucking way.

It was just people going to a bar to dance, and belong, and be open. And then that.

My brothers and sisters.

[Aerows]

28. My brothers and sisters.

I don't even know how to express myself about this.

It is super easy to forget that everything is fine, and we've made progress.

All it takes is a 1000 bullets pointed at us and using the trigger to prove that we have a long way to go.

I'm your sister. I'm your loved one. I'm your co-worker, I'm your helpful neighbor.

Those people matter as much to me as I hope I matter to them. We don't arrive at a good destination in life without loving somebody.

[Quackers]

36. ...

wishing you a peaceful night. I'm sorry.

[redwitch]

37. Oh Prism I am so sorry!

So much sadness. So heartbroken today.

[Sissyk]

55. Prism -

[sibelian]

109. .

I'm sorry, Prism.

[Crunchy Frog]

10. I'm sorry about your loss.

[Aerows]

15. Can people quit mocking us?

Because I am upset, and then I had a post hidden because we were being trolled. I can't stay silent, but apparently I'm supposed to bow my gay head and not give a damn.

It's not in my DNA.

[Crunchy Frog]

24. I hope you don't think I was mocking anything.

I'm just really horrified about this, and feel especially bad for people who have friends or acquaintances or family among the victims.

[Aerows]

30. No, not you.

I certainly didn't want to make you feel that I was blaming you - it was a different thread, different person.

[Crunchy Frog]

33. Thanks.

I just got accused on another thread of wanting LGBT people to get murdered, so I'm a little on edge too.

I'm sorry about everything that you're going through right now.

[Aerows]

34. We're all on edge. n/t

[Silver_Witch]

74. Aerows - please hold up your gay head with pride.

Hugs and thoughts coming your way!!

[ladym55]

48. OMG

I am so, so sorry. Send your ex my heartfelt sympathy. There are no words that can touch the pain ...

[TDale313]

57. I'm so sorry

[justiceischeap]

8. I've had to delete many replies and step away from DU today

because it's just sickening how some people are reacting.

[Aerows]

12. I had a post hidden today

because I just fell into a well of outrage because of the mockery.

[justiceischeap]

13. I actually typed up a reply and realized after rereading it

that is was just a foul language filled tirade that didn't make much sense. I deleted it and walked away. It was a much needed break.

[Aerows]

18. This one was insult added to injury because

I stated exactly how I felt about a long term troll that sought to minimize this.

I pointed out that if his social groups don't give a damn, it's a reflection of who he voluntarily hangs around with the problem, not me.

[rhett o rick]

19. That's why I can't stay here. People pretending to be "politically liberal" are just bullies

looking for someone they can self-righteously bully.

[Aerows]

21. I feel as in the wilderness as you do.

Trolls are free to cut us down, here. This was brought up in sharp relief today.

[justiceischeap]

25. Some of the attitudes today reminded me of the horrible situation

with the great gay purge several years ago. It shows there are still lots of issues within our own liberal community.

[rhett o rick]

75. Those here that want to control the discussions with alerts, locks, hides and bans, don't give a

crap about our freedoms, our liberties or the fact that 2.5 million American children live in poverty.

[Aerows]

83. You have a tragedy and some of the very people

that should be standing up for you are the very people smashing your face in the mud.

This is not the DU I joined.

[madinmaryland]

16. "Guns are a problem. Fundamentalism is a problem. Homophobia is a problem."

I'm sorry, but these are political issues. These issues need to be solved.

[Old Crow]

40. +1. Well said. (N/T)

[sibelian]

106. There is a discussion to be had about certain other issues in this case...

... which appear to be being occulted by the political issues you list.

The discussion is unlikely to take place, I suspect.

[BootinUp]

23. First, I am deeply saddened by the event in Orlando

and I agree with the basic sentiment that politicization of tradgedies is not good. I agree that we should focus on causes and actions to improve our society. However, it seems hard to ignore that Trump has done exactly what you decry today and plans to continue doing it tomorrow. You don't think Trump should be criticized for his remarks today? He apparently called for the President to resign.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Are you surprised? I am not.

I am seeing posts moving away from discussing the victims and making excuses for the shooter. It is also moving away from being a hate crime against the LGBT community to one against Latinos. It is like the assholes who claimed the shooting in Charleston wasn't really about African-Americans, but really about Christians being the target. GLBT died...were MURDERED...because they were GLBT!!!!

I am so sad and angry all at once.

I am sick of the ones claiming the shooter was "probably a secret gay himself." Because as we all know, straight people are never homophobic; no, it is just some self-loathing homo who can't come to grips with himself! AARGGGGGGGH!

[justiceischeap]

27. I just replied to one of those "secret gays" claim

It chaps my ass some of the attitudes and comments on here today.

[Behind the Aegis]

89. I saw that.

I am glad you said it. I was seriously losing my patience.

[unapatriciated]

41. So sorry, there are people on this board

that would make such a hateful remark.

My daughter was the victim of a hate crime
20 years, he was not prosecuted.

I'm saddened and outraged, that 20 years later she still had little or no protection under our laws.

My heart is breaking for those who lost friends and loved ones.

Posting from my phone, so please excuse if mispellings and grammar, I'm not as good at this as my kids and grand kids.

I just want to give you, prism and GLBTQ community a warm hug.

[Behind the Aegis]

90. Thank you for your comments.

I have also been a victim of a hate crime (a few actually). It is very disconcerting that we, as a group, are still so vulnerable, with homophobia being legal is some places.

[Sissyk]

58. BtA -

This is all I can offer you right now.

[Behind the Aegis]

88. I'll take it.

[passiveporcupine]

59. I agree

I think a lot of people who aren't as upset over this as they should be, are trying to deflect. Yes, there may have been more to it than homophobia, but I sincerely think that was the primary motive. And some people here are on the defensive about that. I wonder why.

[Behind the Aegis]

91. I don't wonder why, I know why.

There is a common misconception that those on the left are "pro"-gay; it isn't necessarily so. The fact the victims are GLBT just highlights the bigotry in some by trying to make it about everything else or ignoring us all together.

[sibelian]

107. On THIS site? Of course not!

"probably a secret gay himself."

Not even the the fucking conservatives over on DISCUSSIONIST have gone that far. Not that they care, particularly.

[question everything]

38. And during Ramadan (nt)

[Warren DeMontague]

39. I am sorry for your pain and loss.

Your points are well taken.

[LostOne4Ever]

42. Thank you for this! Today I just want to mourn the victims.

[Hydra]

43. I hate when people trample on the bodies of the dead to push their personal agendas

As you say, we have big problems to address. We need to do it rather than kicking the can down the road or claiming it's "not that bad" as they did here in the past.

[IronLionZion]

45. We have lots of new DUers today with low post counts

many of which have already been banned.

It is a shame that some people are trying to ignore the gays and guns part of the story.

The President acknowledged that hate is a problem and it was an attack on LGBT folks.

[Dalziel3979]

46. We are probably the most politically expendable minority there is next to the disabled.

It's not something exclusive to the U.S. either. Politicians, media figures, hypocritical cherry picking social progressives, the 'ordinary' people, very few of them really give a shit about us as a community and even less as individuals. We are just a means to an end for them to mount and push their opinions and agendas over whatever they regard as far more important and valuable issues. I've never truly trusted hardly any of them.

[YOHABLO]

47. Everything is political. This killer's intentions were political. No gun regulation? ... political.

[AtheistCrusader]

49. I'm not going to do it. Not this time. Not on du. Not at work. Not on Facebook.

I'm not going to discuss a ducking thing about it until I know about the people who died. I'm not going to talk about what laws were or were not on the books that may or may not have prevented it. I'm not going to talk about the rifle or how it is being misrepresented In The media. None of that shit. It's noise, on repeat. Fuck it.

I want to know who died. I want to know who will carry scars, physical and psychological. I want to know what this cost us, as humans. Until I know, I have no other opinions and nothing to say.

[Feeling the Bern]

50. No more dead Americans!

Fuck the NRA. Fuck the ammosexuals! Fuck the gundamentalists!

I will play politics because I am tired of watching my fellow countrymen slaughtered and hearing such bullshit reasons why we shouldn't, can't and won't do anything about it!

[Kang Colby]

62. Ammosexuals?

I'm sorry but re-read the OP. I dislike that slur because essentially it draws its power from the pejorative use of homosexual.

As a pro-gay, GLBT rights supporting, life long Democrat, I couldn't agree more with the OP. I read dozens and dozens of anti-gun posts from people who NEVER both to have intelligent gun policy discussions in GC&RKBA. But when something like this happens they happily say nasty things about people they don't know.

[Feeling the Bern]

63. You can dislike it. I normally use gun humper or gundamentalist

I am pissed off. Don't give me word police.

[Bluenorthwest]

105. I hate the term as well. In fact, such verbiage makes discussion of gun issues impossible.

Why do you have to have a term that sounds like homosexual and use it in the negative? What gain is int that for you? More importantly, how has that lexicon served progress on gun controls? It has not, it has hindered it.

[sibelian]

108. It's adolescent posturing. Sickly, foolish gibberish. nt.

[Feeling the Bern]

112. I don't care for word police when I am pissed off.

You manifest your anger your way, I'll do it my way.

[Bluenorthwest]

113. Yeah? Well back at you. You are word policing me, you demand I not speak my mind about your

lexicon of insults crafted out of anti gay taunts. You love that shit, I find it to be disgusting. Ain't freedom grand?

[Feeling the Bern]

114. I couldn't care less. I'm not telling you what to say or how to say it.

Nice logical leap, buddy.

Don't like what I write. . .there's an ignore feature. Use it.

[Odin2005]

93. Thanks for proving the OP's point.

[HassleCat]

53. I blame Reagan.

My favorite thing is to blame Ronald Reagan for everything that goes wrong. I suppose I could figure how to do that regarding this incident, but you're right. We need to resist the temptation to lay this on whoever and whatever we dislike.

[shenmue]

54. What are you on?

[MFM008]

56. Tears just won't stop

They just drip.
Prism sorry for you loss.

[LeftRant]

60. When Republicans throw the masses of bigots out of their bed, I'll stop calling them bigots.

Never before.

[Solly Mack]

61. K&R

[MisterP]

66. guns, homophobia, treating homophobia as a campaign vantage and fundraiser rather than a problem

to fight, fundamentalism and its encouragement, genuflection before money and electoral threats, bipartisan collaboration, Iraq, Libya, Syria
this is in fact the core, the nucleus of politics: not the dilly-dally dance of Hill seats and horse races, but "avoiding stupid ideas that kill thousands because we'd rather play it safe, think only in 24-month units, and truckling to the absolute worst of society because they're rich"
it's definitely not "but the Republicans!" but it is absolutely politics--even if not partisan

[Ash_F]

67. What happened today is why involvement in politics is necessary

It is not something we "play"

[6000eliot]

68. People will try to make political hay out of it, but nothing will really be done.

People will still have easy access to assault weapons. Save your "thoughts and prayers" for the day you really care.

[backscatter712]

72. Oh give me a fucking break. The NRA says this every time one of their products is used in a massacre

So don't talk to me about "politicizing a massacre".

[Odin2005]

96. You just proved OP's point.

[Silver_Witch]

73. Thank you!

This needed to be said.

[ancianita]

77. This is also a colossal failure of Homeland Security to protect citizens from US-based terrorists.

It's not simply a criminal matter or a social problem, it's a larger intel issue.

We seem to have a system that's 'too big to succeed' when it comes to stopping people who've earned their way onto our Homeland watch lists.

[Rex]

78. Republicans are a problem. I am surprised you do not recognize this. nt

nt

[Dustlawyer]

79. Until you address the root problem this will go no where.

After Sandy Hook, when over 90% of Americans wanted some more gun control it could not pass. The guy killed a bunch of little kids and some brave teachers!

You have to get the money out of our politics first. Washington works for who pays for it to work, and it ain't us! The gun manufacturers paid to keep things the way they are, their Lobbyiests handed in the checks. Publicly Funded Elections would take away their power.

This nation has a lot of serious problems which will not be resolved in our favor, if at all, until and unless we decide to change the game. What that/those terrorists did was a horrible, cold-blooded, murder aimed at a specific section of our society.

True Representative government would respond with what their Constiuents want, not the wealthy Plutocrats and Oligarch's. Not like AG of Florida, Pam Bondi, or former AG now governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, who took the cash from Trump! They are all for sale under a system of legalized bribery, we encourage it!

Not hijacking the thread, just think the first step should be for all oppressed segments of our society to join together to beat the root problem so we can solve other very serious issues that our corrupt government is unable and/or unwilling to solve!

[sibelian]

111. Your comment title is absolutely correct.

But I don't think the rest of it is as relevant as you think.

[Recursion]

86. The shooter's act was a political one. Our response has to be human first (nt)

[Odin2005]

94. Our society is so socially polarized that we cannot even mourn the dead before...

...people start finger-pointing and trying to score political points. It's sad. The same shit happened after Sandy Hook, people politicizing dead kids witht he Right demonizing the mentally ill and the Left demonizing gun owners.

[Iggo]

95. I'm not playing.

[applegrove]

101. Republicans are exactly why there are AR 15s out there. I'm so tired

of Republicans saying that after a tragedy it is not the time to talk. Bull****. These are GOP talking points.