If the Left does not wake up about Islam, Trump will win

[runaway hero]

My cousin said this this afternoon. Many people are sick of this and Trump makes it easy with the bans and the killing their families. Trump knows how to channel feelings and rage, Hillary does not. Americans are a reactive bunch, let's hope this doesn't mean trump becomes President. We should know better, but so many are easily swayed.


How is the left going to respond to this without making Trump look good.

[Darb]

1. T Rump never looks good, except

to idiots. There are not enough idiots in the US to get that fuck elected.

[maryellen99]

2. and don't they are secretly cheering this because the victims were gay nt

[Lance Bass esquire]

3. Don't think so myself

Outside of his base most informed people understand this type of attack is unstoppable no matter who is in power.

A lot of people who gave into the whole Bush Cheney fear campaign post 911 won't get fooled again.

JMHO

[HereSince1628]

5. I hope you're correct, when fear howls at the door logic flies out the window

[elljay]

19. Never underestimate the fears of a suburban soccer mom

After the attacks in France, my daughter's high school sent out a message to calm the parents. They announced that the school's doors would now be locked and people would have to buzz in. Never mind that the school is in California, not France, and the bloody doors are glass, which is really not a problem for someone with an assault weapon. However, the school felt they had to respond to worried parents. There are a lot of smart, educated people who become totally irrational when it comes to terrorism. Remember all the small towns in places like Arkansas and Montana applying for government anti-terrorist funds after 9/11, as if they were in the top 1 million potential al Qaeda targets. As Michael Moore pointed out Bowing for Columbine, creating fear is a distinguishing feature of modern America. We cannot underestimate he paranoia.

[Lance Bass esquire]

27. I see your point however

Unfortunately this is not our first terror rodeo. Been under color coded siege mode since 911. I think we are entering a new stage of this game. Israel gets hit...they clean up the mess and bury their dead and go after the peeps that did it. They do not declare war on entire middle east. People are becoming more logical and less fearful of terrorism. It's here. Deal with it mind set.

Been watching this movie play out for over 50 years. JMHO

[elljay]

29. You are more optimistic than me!

Let's hope you are correct. Personally, I have little faith. Seen way too much stupid.....

[Lance Bass esquire]

30. I agree but got to keep the faith ;) n/t

[Albertoo]

65. We cannot underestimate he paranoia? Paranoia??

Paris 1 + San Bernardino + Paris 2 + Orlando = Paranoia?

How about not leaving the issue of screening immigrants from Middle Eastern countries?
How about not letting in Syrian refugees without at least asking them if they understand open homosexuality is legal? Or that they will meet physicians of the opposite sex?

[elljay]

70. Sorry, not getting your point

Omar Mateen was born in the U.S. According to his ex-wife, he was abusive and had mental problems. The failure is that we have no effective system and few laws to prevent someone like this from buying an assault weapon. And, I agree that we need to screen all immigrants. Immigrating here is a privilege, not a right

[Albertoo]

71. My point = Democrats shouldn't leave the issue of radical islam to populists (Trump)

Here at DU, many people will holler when one mentions that many mosques in the US propagate anti-democratic propaganda inspired by the global Muslim Brotherhood ideology.

I already wrote that I bet Hillary will win, but a meaner Trump II will emerge if Democrats leave the issue of Islam control to rabble rousers like Trump.

[muriel_volestrangler]

110. President Obama, a prominent Democrat, has the US military bombing radical Islamists in Iraq

and Syria. Democratic politicians are not "leaving the issue of radical islam to populists".

Which mosques are you talking about? Be specific - names, towns or cities. You say there are 'many'.

[Albertoo]

149. Your question is for the FBI

Unless I had access to their data, you cannot reasonably expect me to give you a list of radical mosques (with names, towns or cities, no less)

As for the exact percentage of 'radical' mosques in the US, it would depend on a definition of the word 'radical'. If by that we include adherence to political Islam, meaning the 'mainstream' Muslim Brotherhood plus the minority Wahhabi, Salafi and Takfiri sects, the range of the guesstimates can go as high as 80%

Expert: Saudis have radicalized 80% of US mosques
Yehudit Barsky, AJC terrorism expert, talks of the power of extremist Wahhabi Islam in the United States.
http://www.jpost.com/International/Expert-Saudis-have-radicalized-80-percent-of-US-mosques

And while President Obama has effectively been very efficient in organizing the fight against ISIS, I have reservations about the welcome of Syrian refugees in the light of the fact that "13% of Syrian refugees have positive feelings towards the Islamic State terrorist group."
http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/13-percent-syrian-refugees-support-isis-poll

[muriel_volestrangler]

153. No, the question is for you. You complained that "when one mentions" your assertion

about many mosques, DUers "holler". If you're going to make a claim, expect people to 'holler' if all you can do is say "this is FBI data I know exists but don't know what it says", followed by a a couple of quotes from right wing websites.

[Albertoo]

157. Then here are some more precise answers

- The Clarion Project's board of advisors is comprised of Muslims at the forefront of integrating their religion into democracy. To try to disqualify them by calling them RW is weird (regardless of their politics, which I do not know)
- As for the Jerusalem Post, I had no inkling of their politics, but wiki seems to call them centrists today https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jerusalem_Post

And some DUers did holler when I mentioned the Jerusalem Post article. While I would agree Yehudit Barsky is exaggerating, my guess would be he did so to counter the prevailing complacency about Islam in the US.

As for the FBI, you are right, I was quoting from my faulty memory: it's "former FBI counter-terrorism Special Agent John Guandolo" who declared "that the “vast majority” of the 2,200 Islamic organizations, centers, and mosques in the United States are .. intent on imposing Sharia Law in America." to the admittedly RW Breitbart

Which is the main thesis of the Team B report for the Center for Security Policy of which the former CIA Director was a member.
Here's the link, but it seems to not copy properly https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/upload/wysiwyg/article%20pdfs/Shariah%20-%20The%20Threat%20to%20America%20(Team%20B%20Report)%20Web%20Version%2009302010.pdf

[muriel_volestrangler]

165. Here's something about The Clarion Project and the author of the piece you linked to

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/02/20/meet-foxs-new-anti-muslim-national-security-ana/198148

I'd class the Jerusalem Post as right wing - and I'd say that's a typical view on DU: https://www.google.co.uk/#q=%22jerusalem+post%22+%22right%22&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com . But they're not as bad as Breitbart; I'd class them like the Daily Telegraph in the UK. Perhaps the Wall Street Journal is the equivalent in the USA - right wing, but doesn't tend to make things up entirely.

And the Center for Security Policy is the most right wing fanatical anti-Islam group there is - Frank Gaffney is so anti-Islam, he accuses Grover Norquist of being in secret cahoots with the Muslim Brotherhood because he has a Muslim wife. He also has a thing about President Obama and Huma Abedin.

I'd never heard of John Guandolo, but the first news article I find about him doesn't look good: FBI kept quiet about sexual relationship between agent, star witness in Jefferson trial , or the 2nd:

NPR’s Dina Temple-Raston, one of the first to report on PRA’s findings, broadcast a “Morning Edition” story this week about a counterterrorism training in Ohio that smeared a Jordanian-American professor with accusations of links to terrorism. NPR reports that the professor had worked with the Department of Homeland Security on a highly effective outreach program to the Muslim community. The only “evidence” the trainer, former FBI agent and ex- Marine John Guandolo, gave NPR for singling out the professor was a photograph of the man with members of a Muslim-American civil rights organization.
...
A number of experts on the Muslim Brotherhood have debunked the conspiracy theory voiced by Guandolo. For instance, Nathan Brown, a George Washington University professor of political science, testified before Congress that the Muslim Brotherhood is not a violent organization in most places it operates. The Brotherhood’s rejection of violence, said Brown, is “not a mere tactical adjustment” but a “deep strategic commitment.” He noted that the Brotherhood is not on any U.S. terrorism list and argued that the U.S. should not have any official policy toward the Brotherhood any more than it has a policy toward the greens, feminists, or nationalist right.
...
Setting aside basic problems such as selective reading, Guandolo’s analysis also suffers largely as a result of its paranoid associative tactics. In one example, which was highly publicized by NPR, Guandolo falsely accused Omar al-Omari, a 59-year-old Jordanian college professor who is an American citizen and has lived in Ohiofor 30 years, of having ties with terrorists.[5] During a training session with the Columbus Division of Police, Guandolo showed a picture of Omari with members of CAIR as evidence of his guilt. However, several training attendees had worked with Omari before in his work in Muslim outreach for the Ohio Department of Public Safety and found the accusations ludicrous. NPR interviewed almost a dozen members of the national intelligence community including current members of the FBI and Department of Homeland Security, all of which disagreed with Guandolo’s assessment.

- See more at: http://www.politicalresearch.org/2011/07/22/john-guandolo-another-counterterrorism-expert-exposed/#sthash.Mir0DLo3.dpuf

[Albertoo]

166. All 3 sources are debatable, and at least, acceptable

- Clarion Project: to be honest, I do not know them but I doubt their board of advisors would be three very articulate Muslims if the organization itself was anti-Muslims.

- Jerusalem Post: it has veered toward the right, but doesn't shut off voices from the left (like a British tabloid would). It's what I found from an overview by a progressive Israeli journalist
http://www.worldpress.org/mideast/634.cfm

- as for the Center for Security Policy, I only mentioned their Team B report which was commissioned by the US government, and on the panel of which stood the director of the CIA under Bill Clinton.

[muriel_volestrangler]

169. I don't know where "commissioned by the US government" has come from

but there's plenty here from the Southern Poverty Law Center about the racing insanity of that 'Sharia' report:

CSP recruited several people to contribute to the report, including Tom Trento, founder of the anti-Islam group The United West (Florida Security Council), who has a record of peddling anti-Islam conspiracy theories. Trento once addressed a crowd in Florida in December 2015 after the Broward County Sheriff hired a Muslim deputy, saying, “What the hell is going on that Scott Israel (the sheriff) hires a terrorist!” Diana West was another contributor. An author and columnist, West has said that it is really the basic teachings of Islam, not “some peculiar strain called ‘Islamism’ or of an organization such as the Muslim Brotherhood or ISIS,” that poses a threat to Americans’ constitutional liberties.

Also a member of “Team B II” was Lt. General Jerry Boykin, a retired three-star general. In 2010, the same year the Team B II report was released, Boykin appeared on a video of the Christian Dominionist-leaning Oak Initiative stating, “(Islam) should not be protected under the First Amendment, particularly given that those following the dictates of the Quran are under an obligation to destroy our Constitution and replace it with sharia law.” He has also referred to Islam as “evil.” Boykin is currently the executive vice president of the Family Research Council (FRC), an anti-LGBT hate group.
...
Two other members of CSP’s Team B II report are current CSP staffers, namely Clare Lopez, a former CSP fellow and current vice president for research and analysis, and David Yerushalmi, Esq., CSP’s general counsel. Lopez spent two decades at the CIA before joining up with Gaffney. Her history of touting anti-Muslim conspiracy theories echoes those of CSP. She has long claimed, for example, that the Muslim Brotherhood has “infiltrated and suborned the U.S. government to actively assist … the mission of its grand jihad.” She wrote a 2013 report that linked Huma Abedin, deputy chief of staff to Hillary Clinton when she was secretary of state, to the Muslim Brotherhood — a favorite, but false, allegation on the far right that earned condemnation from conservative members of Congress like Senator John McCain (R-AZ).

Yerushalmi is the architect of the “anti-Shariah” bills that appeared in dozens of states in recent years. Yerushalmi began his campaign in 2006 by founding the Society of Americans for National Existence (SANE), an anti-Muslim organization devoted to promoting his theory that Islam is inherently seditious and that Shariah, is a “criminal conspiracy to overthrow the U.S. government.” He equates Shariah with Islamic extremism so totally that he advocates criminalizing virtually any personal practice compliant with Shariah. In his view, only a Muslim who fully breaks with the customs of Shariah can be considered socially tolerable.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/center-security-policy

Bonus: "During the interview, Gaffney called Taylor's white nationalist American Renaissance website "wonderful," and asked, “Is it the death of Europe what we’re seeing at the moment in terms of this migration, this invasion?” After a number of watchdog groups including the Southern Poverty Law Center wrote about Taylor’s appearance on the radio show, Gaffney backtracked, and attempted to bury the evidence by scrubbing the Taylor interview from his site and claiming he was “unfamiliar” with Taylor’s views before inviting him on."

They are to the right of Trump.

Presumably you're talking about Woolsey; he's a bit of a neoconservative wanker, who Clinton apparently appointed to look 'tough' on foreign policy, and the 2 had a non-existent relationship while he was at the CIA. Afterwards:

Woolsey is the chairman of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. He is Chairman of the Advisory Board at the Opportunities Development Group (ODG). ODG did not file a federal tax return in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012.[7][8] He is currently a member of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP) Board of Advisors, Advisor of the Institute for the Analysis of Global Security, co-founder of the United States Energy Security Council, Founding Member of the Set America Free Coalition, and a Senior Vice President at Booz Allen Hamilton for Global Strategic Security (since July 15, 2002).[9] He is a Patron of the Henry Jackson Society, a British think tank. Woolsey has had long-standing contact with Central and Eastern Europe and is a Member of the Board of Advisors of the Global Panel Foundation based in Berlin, Copenhagen, Prague, Sydney, and Toronto. He was formerly chairman of the Freedom House board of trustees. He is a member of the International Advisory Board of NGO Monitor.[10]

Woolsey is a member of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) and was one of the signatories to the January 26, 1998 letter sent to President Clinton that called for the removal of Saddam Hussein.[11] That same year he served on the Rumsfeld Commission, which investigated the threat of ballistic missiles for the U.S. Congress.[12]
...
Within hours of the September 11 attacks, Woolsey appeared on television suggesting Iraqi complicity.[29] In September 2002, as Congress was deliberating authorizing President Bush to use force against Iraq, Woolsey told the Wall Street Journal that he believed that Iraq was also connected to the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993.[30]

In 2005, Steve Clemons, a senior fellow at the New America Foundation think tank, accused Woolsey of both profiting from and promoting the Iraq War.[31] Melvin A. Goodman, senior fellow at the Center for International Policy and former CIA division chief, told the Washington Post that "Woolsey was a disaster as CIA director in the 1990s and is now running around this country calling for a World War IV to deal with the Islamic problem".[32][33]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._James_Woolsey_Jr.

[Albertoo]

182. On this issue, the Southern Poverty Law Center is off course

They have a much stronger opposition to traditionalist Christians (which I think are nuts, but that's not th epoint) than to traditional Islam which is -as currently interpreted by its mainstream preachers- sexist, homophobic, totalitarian and supremacist. The Southern Poverty Law Center appears never to have issued caution warnings vs literal Islam which is arguably as dangerous as the KKK 'doctrine'.

On the Team B report, I checked, you're right, this one doesn't appear to have been commissioned by the government. However,
- the goal and mechanism is similar to the initial Team B report
- the panel claims to be bipartisan http://www.iwp.edu/news_publications/detail/professor-part-of-team-b-report-on-enemy-threat-doctrine
- the panel did include some people of impressive credentials: the director of the CIA under Bill Clinton has to be reasonably competent and obviously not opposed to Democrats.

[muriel_volestrangler]

185. You're still trying to get us to pay attention to a bunch of lunatics

even if one of them served under Clinton. I mean, look at how much he has pushed for war against any Muslim country - Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan. Woolsey has blood on his hands, the same way Cheney does. He is a true Islamophobe - he hates and fears all Islam, and all Muslims. The SPLC is quite right, and I'm quite worried a DUer is putting forward reports from Gaffney and his fellow idiots, who are infamous for conspiracy theories about the Muslims having secretly taken over both Democratic and Republican parties.

You say "the goal and mechanism is similar to the initial Team B report "; that's a bad thing.

Fareed Zakaria notes, however, that the specific conclusions of the report "were wildly off the mark.
...
Rather than including a diversity of views ... the Strategic Objectives Panel was composed entirely of individuals who made careers of viewing the Soviet menace with alarm.[34]
...
Time Magazine editor Strobe Talbott stated in 1990 that:

“Bush allowed a panel of outsiders, deliberately stacked with hard-liners, to second-guess the agency's findings. Not surprisingly, the result was a depiction of Soviet intentions and capabilities that seemed extreme at the time and looks ludicrous in retrospect.[35]

1976 is the era of détente, and the neocons hate this; they fear losing their favorite enemy, the Soviet Union. They are saying the CIA is coming up with much too rosy of predictions and they don’t believe the intelligence. Who takes over the CIA at this point? George H.W. Bush. They decide they have to go to battle against him and they form what is known as Team B, which starts an "alternative intelligence assessment." It effectively says the CIA is all wrong and that we have to redo their intelligence. But Team B's estimates were completely inaccurate.

Despite Kissinger's condemnation of Team B's assessment, Rumsfeld was effusive in promoting it as a credible study—and thereby undermining arms control efforts for the next four years. Two days before Jimmy Carter's inauguration, Rumsfeld fired parting shots at Kissinger and other disarmament advocates, saying that "no doubt exists about the capabilities of the Soviet armed forces" and that those capabilities "indicate a tendency toward war fighting ... rather than the more modish Western models of deterrence through mutual vulnerability." Team B's efforts not only were effective in undermining the incoming Carter administration's disarmament efforts but also laid the foundation for the unnecessary explosion of the defense budget in the Reagan years. And it was during those years that virtually all of Rumsfeld's compatriots were elevated to positions of power in the executive branch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B

The original 'Team B' was an exercise in fearmongering. Having the same objectives is not good.

[elljay]

145. I can't speak to US mosques

as I don't go to them, but we definitely shouldn't abandon the issue. We tend to be knee-jerk about always pointing out that Christianity is just as violent as Islam. Actually, Christians are just as violent but Christianity is not. Islam, on the other hand, has Jim Crow discrimination written into the Koran as laws that must be followed. If the U.S. adopted those laws but replaced Jews and Christians with African-Americans, progressives would be outraged. To the degree a Muslim considers those laws be the inerrant word of God, that Muslim is a bigot.

[Albertoo]

150. The bottom line is that the Quran is a dangerous book

There's no sidestepping the issue that some passages of the Quran are sexist, homophobic and supremacist.

[atreides1]

152. The Bible can be just as dangerous

Or didn't the spew from the Lt. Governor of Texas, prove that???

[Albertoo]

154. I don't care for the Bible, but it's less dangerous than the Quran

While both the Old Testament and the Quran are full of nonsense and incitment to violence,
the New Testament "turn the other cheek" is less harmful than the Quran's "kill the infidels".
(but both the New Testament and the Quran condone sexism and slavery)

[elljay]

164. Here is the difference

Speaking as a Jew, the Torah is our book, written by our people, in our language and its laws apply only to us. Traditional Jews follow the laws but don't make up new ones based on the stories. Thus, while there is the story that the Amalekites were massacred, this did not create a rule that Jews were required to massacre other people. Some stories are disturbing, but they are stories to read, not rules to follow. Over the years, the most noxious of the rules have either been deemed fulfilled or had conditions attached to them that made them impossible to do ( the death penalty for example). Most Jews are either unaffiliated or belong to denominations that follow gender and sexual equality. Christians appropriated our texts, then told us that this guy Jesus said we didn't have to follow it anymore. They then proceeded to selectively follow certain rules anyway and not at all others. If they want to appropriate my people's book,be hitch never applied to them, then they should follow their Jesus and not practice any of the rules at all. Regarding Islam, they have many discriminatory and violent rules and they have not found a way to mitigate them. In fact, ask a moderate Muslim whether the Orlando slaughter was a terrible crime and they will agree. Then ask whether the Koran is the true and perfect word of God and they will agree. Then ask if that includes the part about punishing gays. This is the difference.

[Hekate]

159. You mean like The Holy Bible?

[Albertoo]

161. Answered in #154. But the Bible is assuredly a daft book too.

[840high]

104. That would be a good start.

[heaven05]

130. true

a lot of smart people were "swayed" to believe in Hitler. Not a stretch to believe it can happen here with our current reincarnation of evil running as a Republican.

[Hoyt]

32. I hope, but I'm convinced Kerry lost when bin Laden released that video 4 days before election day.

[Lance Bass esquire]

48. That's a valid point

But go back to when that was. 12 years ago? America was on a different mindset then. Fear and a reactionary administration has been replaced with a cautionary and logical one in its approach to the war on terror. The 30 somethings now are not of the same as then. They have grown up with this. JMHO

[truebluegreen]

49. That was 12 years ago. We've been around the block

a good few times since then.

And imho Kerry "lost" when Dimson and his pals stole Ohio.

[Warren DeMontague]

4. I think people need to stop abandoning logic in favor of their preferred narratives.

When the same people who are willing to blame the Isla Vista shooting on Seth Rogen movies can't seem to acknowledge that Islamic Fundamentalism is a driver in acts such as this one, we have a bit of a problem.

[grossproffit]

8. Glad I missed that. Oh boy!

Yes, we do have a problem.

[Bluenorthwest]

10. And that is a fact.

nt

[runaway hero]

15. Bingo.

Trump brings that to the table.

[bdwker]

114. Really.

"can't seem to acknowledge that Islamic Fundamentalism is a driver in acts such as this one, we have a bit of a problem".

[sibelian]

163. Stop spoiling all the fun, Warren. We're pinning the tail on the donkey.

Everywhere except on it's actual arse, of course, that's cheating.

I'll be over here in the corner with my colossal list of links to Youtube videos detailing Islam's attitude towards gay people, none of which would survive being posted on this site. I'm free to post them almost anywhere else on the Internet, strangely.

[Warren DeMontague]

168. Remember #notallmen?

It's funny how generalizing groups of people is okay based on the actions of some individuals, except when it isn't.

[sibelian]

170. Well HOW could I forget it, dear sir.

Good times, good times...

[MH1]

6. When "the Left" "wakes up about Islam", what do you think "the Left" should do about it?

[Skittles]

41. OMG WHAT SHOULD "OUR PARTY" DO, MH1?

[MH1]

167. ??? Not sure what you found funny about that, or

worth shouting (all caps) about?

I'm just asking, what does "wake up" even mean, to the OP? So "the Left" "wakes up". What does that translate to, in concrete terms? What should we (and/or "the Left" if you don't think those are the same, and some here seem not to), actually do? What is the point of being awake if you don't do anything?

[Skittles]

171. troll speak

they frequently refer to "our party"

[runaway hero]

172. Why would I say "us" in the OP?

[MH1]

181. Oh, got it

I see now. Sorry, I misunderstood your post!

[runaway hero]

56. Don't make excuses.

[Wednesdays]

81. Such as...?

[runaway hero]

84. take the concerns of middle america seriously.

[840high]

105. That would be good for a change.

[muriel_volestrangler]

111. Does that mean "do whatever a referendum says"?

I'm asking seriously. If your answer to "what should the left do" is "take middle American concerns seriously", you seem to be saying that our policy with 'radical Islam' - so that's ISIS, al Qaeda, the Taliban, Boko Haram, al Shabaab, and more - should be set not by politicians, but by whatever the American voters say at the time.

[runaway hero]

148. no, but

don't deny reality.

[Scootaloo]

177. Here's some reality.

There are 1.7 billion human beings on this planet who identify as "Muslim." It means something different to each and every one of them because faith is personal. They exist in every nation on earth, and express a fittingly broad array of culture, language, outlook, and history. Three point three million of these people are Americans.

The reality is that these people are not a monolith. The overwhelming majority cannot be defined by their religion - even those who could, in theory, be defined so are still individuals within that small grouping.

Now, you answer me, knowing the reality. What exactly are we supposed to "WAKE UP" about, and then - what, oh WHAT do you propose we "do about it"?

Be detailed, this isn't twitter, you can go well over 164 characters. You have something on your mind, and since you feel such a deep need ot lecture, maybe you should go into some detail.

[haele]

158. I do take mob mentality seriously.

Especially it shapes the concerns from otherwise innocent people who really don't want to deal with issues much further than getting through the work week without getting a pink slip.
Unfortunately, I also take the lessons of history and the rule of even handed secular law seriously. While it might make "middle America" feel better to see laws against mosques and a muslim person's right to free assembly, association, and speech so long as those actions do not constitute actual conspiracy to commit crimes, I rather draw the line. Y'see, these laws are not also applied to members of Operation Rescue and other "legitimate" groups that by their own by-laws promote radical action in the name of religion.

To paraphrase the play "The Man for All Seasons" -
"if you allow the chopping away at the forest of laws that stand to protect all citizens to go after the devil, what will stand to protect you when that devil turns into you?"

It is a moral imperative for the law and all agents and representatives of the law to remain true to the Constitution, not to the fears of the latest outrage or "danger" to our way of life.

Otherwise, the terrorists and provocateurs win.

And my concern with your post is the same as most of the other posters - what is it that you actually propose? Or are you just throwing out a stink bomb and blowing around the stink with cryptic comments suggesting that "the left" isn't doing anything so the mob can be turned against people who are actually trying to make sense of what is actually going on and trying not to let the all the small-minded haters - the terrorists and provocateurs - win.

Haele

[Hekate]

160. Thank you Haele for taking on the issue of mob mentality versus our system of laws

Just thanks.

[pampango]

121. Indeed. If the Left "wakes up about Islam" what will we do that Obama is not doing?

Will responding to Trump's taunt to say the words "radical Islamic terrorism" be enough to prove that we are 'awake' or will there be some new conservative litmus test that we have to pass after we say those magic words?

[grossproffit]

7. I've seen more posts bashing Christianity today than discussing Islamism.

I deleted a link to celebration posts via Twitter. The posts were not by Christians.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. Bringing this here and posting that hate speech without warning is not cool.

Exploitative and not acceptable.

[grossproffit]

14. Did you say the same thing to this one?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027901919#post65

[runaway hero]

16. Right, and people will turn to Donald because of stuff like that.

[grossproffit]

21. Who said that? I was stating what I've seen here.

[runaway hero]

57. I was just saying

The avoiding islam (which many do here) will only help Donald. Sorry about the confusion.

[grossproffit]

86. Thanks. I guess I'm overly sensitive tonight. Sorry.

Horrific day.

[smirkymonkey]

24. What sick posts!

I am at a loss for words.

[missingthebigdog]

9. If the left starts acting like Trump,

He has already won.

[Scurrilous]

17. ...

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

54. Yup.

[pampango]

115. So true. And we don't beat republicans by acting like republicans. n/t

[uponit7771]

116. +1

[BootinUp]

11. Intelligently and with great concern. nt

[Agnosticsherbet]

13. What'a Islam got to do with it?

The Orlando mass murderer saw two guys kissing and used that as an excuse to murder them for Isis.

Isis usn't Islam, they are an organization of fanatics and disgruntled Iraqi officers. Obans's stately may be slow, but they are loosing territory and will eventually be reduced to hiding.

Should we wake up to Iran, who are fighting Isis because Isis is dedicated to murdering every ziranian.

Then there are the Suni's, Saydi's, Africs--which is majority Islam.

Are we expected to make war on a religion?

[Fumesucker]

47. Why would Iraqi army officers be disgruntled?

We gave them the greatest gift one people can give another, freedom..

Well, according to Hillary.

[Agnosticsherbet]

95. Because the lost power. Again, this is not about Islam.

[oberliner]

67. "The Orlando mass murderer saw two guys kissing and used that as an excuse to murder them for Isis"

What are you basing that claim on? Hopefully not just some remark by the killer's father.

[runaway hero]

85. let's not go that far.

The OP is about Islam, but that WAS why this happened... homophobia.

[oberliner]

88. I am just cautioning that it is still very early in the investigation. This incident just happened.

There is a lot that random folks on the internet don't know.

[runaway hero]

91. True.

[AgadorSparticus]

174. See, I think he didn't murder them FOR isis. It is the other way around.

He used isis to rationalize his pent up rage and wanted to take out as many as he could. He sounds like a jilted lover. Only he is probably repressed and closeted. And at the end, he gets to be a hero in his own mind.

[oberliner]

180. That sounds plausible

Especially as more information comes out, but it's still very early.

[AgadorSparticus]

184. Agreed. Total speculation. Will be interesting to hear more...

[oberliner]

186. A lot of confusing and seemingly contradictory information emerging

I wish people were able to look at the information without jumping so quickly to various conclusions (as Trump, for instance, has already done).

[840high]

106. Go see the killer's 911 call.

[Agnosticsherbet]

143. 1.6 billion people did not make that 911 call.

Calling the left to wake up about Islam is like Germans saying they had a Jewish problem and like Trump calling to have all Muslim expelled.

It is not about Islam.

[uponit7771]

117. +1, some people should just say they don't like Islam instead of pussy footing around

[thestrugglecontinues]

128. Please discuss

"The Orlando mass murderer saw two guys kissing and used that as an excuse to murder them for Isis."

No. He became enraged at that sight but he didn't run right out and start killing gays as a result. I think we can assume that the sight of two men kissing violated some moral code this person had.

"Isis (I)usn't Islam..."

Well, they claim to be. They are a self described Islamic republic. If you want to deny that fact, ok.

"...Iran, who are fighting Isis because Isis is dedicated to murdering every ziranian."

Iran is fighting isis to support Assad in Syria and their own puppet regime they have installed in Iraq.


"Are we expected to make war on a religion?"

I don't know but it seems like they are making war on us.

[TwilightZone]

18. Trump looked like a complete fool today, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about.

His response has been almost universally criticized.

[elljay]

23. When has Trump not looked like a complete fool?

It doesn't seem to be hurting him. He's still the presumptive nominee and most Republicans are falling over themselves criticizing his comments but saying they'll vote for him anyway. Logic doesn't apply to this situation- we're dealing with an insane asylum.

[Sugarcoated]

28. It's not hurting him with the wingnuts and fringey groups

it will hurt him in the general

[TwilightZone]

34. Agreed.

He has the nuts regardless of what he says or does, but they were always going to vote for him. He needs more than the nuts to win.

[elljay]

36. One can hope

Personally, I have given up on assuming that most people are rational about such things. I'm just seeing way too much stupid. All we need is another attack like this right before the election and all bets are off. Now I am starting to understand how survivalists feel. Part of me wants to start digging a bunker, just in case I need to hole up for a few years.

[uponit7771]

118. +1

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

55. Precisely... this OP is idiotic. tRump is finished after this latest fiasco.

[runaway hero]

58. And that won't matter 5 months from now, at all.

[Scurrilous]

20. Wake up about Islam!!1!

LOL

Did I wake up at Breitbart somehow?

[grossproffit]

22. It's not Islam, it's Islamism. There's a difference.

[Agnosticsherbet]

38. +1000

[uponit7771]

119. +1

[rjsquirrel]

25. Yes we must embrace bigotry against

a billion people or we might lose an election to a bigger bigot.

Absolutely. The hell with principles.

[Fumesucker]

50. Principles?

The only principle is winning, I've been reading that on DU for a year now.

[rjsquirrel]

113. Says you

Being against bigotry is a principle I am quite sure our nominee has always embraced.

[Skittles]

26. lol, please

Trump is making a fool of himself

he appeals to IDIOTS

[Miles Archer]

31. "Trump knows how to channel feelings and rage, Hillary does not."

Best part of the OP, pure comedy gold. I think Hillary should just get better at channeling feelings and rage and this whole thread can be put to rest.

[Skittles]

39. people who pander to fear - seriously, fuck them all

they're disgusting - there's no true leadership there

[Fumesucker]

52. No one would ever be afraid of a superpredator, would they?

Nope, that rhetoric was designed to calm people down and help them consider the crime situation rationally.

[bigtree]

33. the killings weren't about Islam

...they were about radical American homophobia.

[oberliner]

68. How do you know this?

What are you basing this assertion on?

[840high]

107. His 911 call said they were.

[uponit7771]

120. This is false

[herding cats]

35. I'm curious, what did your cousin have to say about our LGBT brethren?

That's what's more at question here after all.

[runaway hero]

60. No one should ever be killed because he or she is gay, his quote.

[herding cats]

92. Pretty words.

And as ineffective as using prayer to end a genocide. They, your cousin, is an idiot. Spouting mindless feel good drivel that resonates to the people they "hang" with on the Internet. They get props and likes from their peer group, and they think that makes them mainstream and wise. It doesn't, it makes them marginalized and blinded. All things taken into context.

Sometimes people are just clueless, and they say things which make no real sense in the world to the rest of us.

This is all about people being brutally killed "because he or she is gay." I'm sad they can't see that. Did they hear about the person in CA today who planned to attack the gay pride parade, too? Did that resonate with them?

I'll pray for your cousin, and bless their heart - or whatever other mindless feel good response applies.

[runaway hero]

93. No different then people on this forum

[herding cats]

94. What?

I have absolutely zero clue what you're talking about.

Really, to me it makes no sense in response to my post.

[thestrugglecontinues]

126. Same problem

I have the same problem following a lot of these posts. Many seem to be just bits of thought with very few complete sentences or even thoughts.

It is very hard to follow.

[herding cats]

96. Ok, I think you meant than, not "then"

I get that error, it's common enough. Even still, if that's the case, I'm confused by your reply all the same. It makes no sense in context to my post.

[runaway hero]

127. i mean that is the same response

people say here, and politicians say elsewhere.

[Chan790]

37. "Please proceed."

Trump is doing a hell of a job burying himself on this tragedy. Why do anything?

A lesson in life: "Never come between your enemy and their comeuppance."

He's burying his candidacy.

[Miles Archer]

45. "Mexican Judge" + "I was right" = "Hello, President Clinton."

He's going to keep doing this right up until November.

The audience is split on a contested convention for the Republicans. A few more incidents like this and I'll be shocked if they give him a pass but they have painted themselves into a corner. I think they're stuck with him. Which, of course, is wonderful. It will be great to see the Republican party slide off the cliff, right next to where that shining city upon the hill is. I hear it's a steep drop.

[runaway hero]

62. Do you think people outside the twitter set care?

In middle America?

[Chan790]

66. Doesn't matter.

It's pissing off TPTB inside the GOP enough that one Republican operative I went to college with implied today that if Trump can't end the foot-in-mouth disease and fearing a backlash if they convention-dump him...they may simply deny him funds and resources from the RNC and rededicate them downticket to Senate and House races to forestall what they expect to be a seat-hemorrhaging bloodbath.

Functionally, that would mean as an outcome they would not even be contesting the Presidential race.

Everything starts on social media and makes it into the mainstream eventually if it persists...so to answer your question, I think they'll care when it's not Twitter and is the evening news and entertainment media.

[runaway hero]

69. will what matter

is when they do dump him, install cruz and Hillary wins 49 states. But then they will learn nothing and another loudmouth billionaire will run in 2020 so what have we learned here?

[Wednesdays]

83. That we can easily beat loudmouth billionaires?

[runaway hero]

87. You haven't beaten him yet

You are going to give me an answer with words tonight yes?

[bravenak]

40. What are we supposed to do?

Be like him and start talking bans and extrajudicial killings? Try to ban an entire religion? Profile shoppers at walmart and people at work because of their religion/culture?

[ck4829]

42. Muslims run the gamut just like any other group of human, and if we treat them like a scary "them"

Then we will start going down a very dark path, I'm not sure where it will end, but I certainly don't want to consider even beginning it.

I've personally come into contact with gay and lesbian Muslims and Muslims who support things like gay rights, those who would be considered very liberal, those who think certain rights and protections should be available for all people, and more.

They are a minority, I will admit that, but there is a little spark for hope. But, treating Muslims like they are the enemy will serve no purpose but tell them that maybe they shouldn't speak out at all.

[cheapdate]

43. Then we f&^king lose.

[Solly Mack]

44. Fart noises

[Demonaut]

46. what would you suggest?

[killbotfactory]

51. A few more decades of war and destabilization in the ME should fix things. Nt

[JHB]

53. It's worth remembering we've been through this before:

The Klan claimed to act in the name of "real Americans" against those who "weren't": Catholics, Jews, immigrants of all sorts. That was the 1920s. Let's go back farther:

Catholics and Mormons as reptiles:

* Title: Religious liberty is guaranteed : but can we allow foreign reptiles to crawl all over us?
* Creator(s): Nast, Thomas, 1840-1902, artist
* Date Created/Published: [between 1860 and 1902]
* Medium: 1 drawing : pen and ink.
* Reproduction Number: LC-USZ62-50658 (b&w film copy neg.)
* Rights Advisory: Publication may be restricted. For information see "Cabinet of American Illustration,&quot http://www.loc.gov/rr/print/res/111_cai.htmlAZ)
* Access Advisory: Restricted access: Materials in this collection are often extremely fragile; most originals cannot be served.
* Call Number: CAI - Nast, no. 54 (C size) [P&P]
* Repository: Library of Congress Prints and Photographs Division Washington, D.C. 20540 USA http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/pp.print
* Notes:
o No publication information.
o (DLC/PP-1980:0080.7).
o Forms part of: Cabinet of American illustration (Library of Congress).
o Exhibit loan 4207-L.
* Subjects:
o Catholics.
o Mormans.
o Domes.
o Freedom of religion.
o Religious groups.
o Reptiles.
* Format:
o Cartoons (Commentary)
o Drawings.
* Collections:
o Cabinet of American Illustration
* Part of: Cabinet of American illustration (Library of Congress)
* Bookmark This Record:
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2010717281/

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2010717281/

Catholic bishop's mitres forming the mouths of crocodiles:

“The American River Ganges”

May 8, 1875
Thomas Nast
“The American River Ganges”

Children; Education, Public Schools; New York City, Education; Religion, Roman Catholic Church; Symbols, Columbia; Women, Symbolic;

This cartoon is one of Thomas Nast's most famous. It depicts Roman Catholic clergy as crocodiles invading America's shore to devour the nation's schoolchildren--white, black, American Indian, and Chinese. (The white children are prominent in front, the rest are in the background.) The public school building stands as a fortress against the threat of theocracy, but it has been bombarded and flies Old Glory upside down to signal distress.

Education in nineteenth-century America was provided by a variety of private, charitable, public, and combined public-private institutions, with the public school movement gaining strength over the decades. A major political issue during the 1870s was whether state and municipal governments should allocate funds for religiously affiliated schools, many of which were Roman Catholic. In most public schools, the Protestant version of the Bible was read, Protestant prayers were uttered, and Protestant teachers taught Protestant moral lessons. (Notice the boy in the cartoon who protects the younger students from the Catholic onslaught carries a Bible in his coat.) Catholic (and some Protestant) leaders asked that parochial schools receive their fair share of public funds. Protestant defenders of public schools erroneously considered that request to be an attempt by Catholics to destroy the spreading public school system.
***
The publishers and staff of Harper’s Weekly, including cartoonist Thomas Nast, were mainly Protestant or secular liberals. Like most such Americans, they believed that the Roman Catholic Church was an antiquated, authoritarian institution that stood against the “Modernism” of a progressive society and democratic political institutions. Irish-Catholics in particular were suspected of being loyal primarily to the Vatican, rather than to the United States, and of not being capable of assimilation by nature or stubborn will. Furthermore, Irish-Catholics were overwhelmingly aligned with the Democratic Party, and more politically involved than other ethnic groups. The Republican newspaper was vehemently opposed to what it believed was the growing political and social influence of the Roman Catholic Church in the United States.

(more at link)
http://www.harpweek.com/09cartoon/BrowseByDateCartoon.asp?Month=May&Date=8

[snot]

151. Thank you!

[Ken Burch]

59. Define "waking up"?

Is your cousin saying that we should accept Trump's basic idea that Muslims should be considered collectively suspicious and collectively disloyal? That we should blame Muslims for the Orlando massacre as a group?

If the left embraces that mindset, it won't leave anything we can still be "left" on. If you dance with the devil once, you give him every dance on his card.

(And I realize you didn't intend it in this way, but the argument your cousin makes is very similar to arguments some people would have been making in early 1942 about the need to defend the internment of Japanese Americans).

[Aerows]

61. If you asked the vast majority of people on DU

Trump is going to win, because that is their only point of reference. "Did you just declare that water is wet? Huh, huh?" Trump will win!!!1

Sometimes it is wise to be more wary of your allies than your enemies.

[Warpy]

63. The left is very much awake about right wing religious zealots

no matter which god they blame for being such vicious, murderous assholes.

The left just refuses to indulge in paranoia about the 1.3 billion people in the world who are Muslim.

That's the difference, right there. We know the enemies are zealotry, intolerance, ignorance, bigotry, and every other thing Trump is using to troll dimwits.

Anybody who thinks that makes him look good is as utterly witless as the rest of his supporters.

[jpak]

64. Thank you for your concern

and Bless your heart

yup

[Doctor_J]

72. trump, Fox News, and dinos blame liberals for orlando tragedy. film at 11

[Lord Magus]

73. Your cousin is a bigot. To hell with what he thinks. -nt-

[runaway hero]

80. I'll be sure to let him know Lord Magus thinks so highly of him.

Come on.

[JustinL]

74. throw our Muslim brothers and sisters under the bus to win an election? fuck that n/t

[uponit7771]

124. +1, no one is into losing our souls

[Spider Jerusalem]

75. Here's the thing: there are nearly three million Muslims in the USA.

The vast majority of them are decent, hard-working, law-abiding citizens. If you're seriously concerned about things like radicalisation of the Muslim population...I don't really think that telling all of those people "sorry, but we'll never regard you as truly American, and your allegiance will always be suspect" is the best way forward.

It's also kind of gross and disgusting to see people falling all over themselves to shout "Islamic terrorism" in the wake of a hate crime targeting a specific minority population. When Dylann Roof shot and killed nine African-Americans in Charleston, people rightly blamed racism and not Christianity. The guy in California with a carful of guns and explosives who was on his way to do something similar at a Pride parade? He was a white Christian. Has anyone blamed Christianity and not homophobia there? Not that I've seen. We should probably be talking about the dangers of bigotry (there's a lot of it around, look at all the anti-transgender "bathroom bills&quot and the problem of easy access to guns (the shooter in Orlando was a native-born US citizen who bought his guns legally).

[uponit7771]

123. +1, the 2nd sentence is spot on what ISIS tells its recruits and tRump establishes ISIS propaganda..

.... by saying exactly that with his banning of Muslims

[L. Coyote]

76. Islam is a religion. You need to wake up to the difference between a religion and terrorism.

You are just as bad as Trump if you think Islam is a problem. Islam is a global religion with 1.6 billion members, 22% of the global population.

[BlueStreak]

77. It is not about Islam. It is about Fundamentalism

Most of the people who have terrorized the gay population in this country have been Christian fundamentalists. Fundamentalism, whether it be Christian, Islamic, Jewish or whatever is the enemy.

Trump's prescription is to issue a temporary ban against any new Muslims entering the US. But this guy was born here -- lived his while life here. Let's see how well the media at dealing with this very basic fact.

[oberliner]

89. What are you basing that on?

Is there evidence this person was a fundamentalist? Not really.

[BlueStreak]

97. Oh, I don't know. Do you think ISIS might be a little fundy?

"The man behind the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history mentioned ISIS in a 911 call during the attack"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen/

[oberliner]

98. ISIS is fundy

But "mentioning ISIS in a 911 call" does not make one a fundamentalist.

[Lord Magus]

101. Apparently his "mention" was to declare allegiance to ISIS. He's a fundy. -nt-

[oberliner]

102. More evidence needed

A person calling 911 and saying they pledge allegiance to ISIS does not make that person a fundamentalist Muslim. They could have mental problems. They could be lying. They could admire ISIS for reasons unrelated to religion.

There would need to be additional supporting evidence to reach the conclusion that this person was a fundamentalist Muslim.

[melman]

109. 'They could admire ISIS for reasons unrelated to religion'

Yeah, that seems really likely.

[oberliner]

132. There are ISIS fighters who aren't particularly pious or religious

To many folks ISIS = bad guys who hate America. If one is feeling disaffected, angry at the world and/or America, making a phone call expressing support for ISIS could make sense from that perspective.

Again, all I am saying is that the 911 phone call by itself is not evidence that the person is a fundamentalist Muslim.

With more evidence, it could be the case that he was. In fact, that is quite probable.

I just don't like making assumptions based on limited information.

[BlueStreak]

178. Or maybe a really strange sense of humor

The person is in the process of terrorizing and brutally murdering dozens of people and stops to pledge allegiance to ISIS.

And the people he is terrorizing are frequent targets of fundamentalists of all stripes.

I'm pretty sure this person is a fundamentalist.

And that is the point, once again. The common element is religious fundamentalism. The correlation is not Islam. It is the mental derangement that is necessary for anybody to buy into that fundamentalist crap, regardless whether it is in a Jesus wrapper, an Abraham wrapper, or a Muhammad wrapper. It is the same disease in all three cases. Only the names have been changed to protect the guilty.

[muriel_volestrangler]

112. The FBI questioned him over remarks apparently supporting terrorism

In the first investigation, Mateen was questioned by FBI agents after they were told he had made inflammatory comments that co-workers worried were sympathetic to terrorists.

The FBI agents determined that Mateen had not broken any laws and closed the investigation, a second official said.

They questioned Mateen again the following year because agents had learned he had contact with an American who later died in a suicide bombing in Syria.

Agents closed that investigation because they concluded the contacts with the suicide bomber had been minimal, an FBI official said.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html

It doesn't specify the terrorism in the first case was Islamic terrorism, but given the contact with the suicide bomber, it's likely it was.

[oberliner]

134. Yes, it is likely

But he could be just an angry, hateful, unstable, violent individual who just glommed onto ISIS without necessarily embracing the religious components. Again, it's still pretty early in the investigation.

[6000eliot]

78. If the morons in this country elect Trump, then they get what they deserve.

Islam has nothing to do with it.

[Silver_Witch]

79. Have no fear! Hillary will bring the war you crave.

[Rex]

82. lulz!

Thanks for the cheap laugh I needed one right about now.

[L. Coyote]

90. You realize "the Left" as you write, if there was such a thing, includes adherents of Islam.

There is no "the Left" in the sense of something that is either asleep or in need of an awakening, certainly no monolithic block of people with a single state of mind. You cannot divide us up like that, in fact, that sort of thinking is the root of this problem. Someone labeled and hated a group of people instead of recognizing them as individuals and part of the complex web of life, each with their own degrees of awareness about myriad things. Someone just did a Trump, by hating a group he pulled a Donald.

Trump might not even be nominated, he surely won't win, and I don't think anyone need to worry for one second about making him look good. No doubt he's praying to the money gods for more terror and mayhem, but he's wrong if he thinks America believes a reality T-V persona is the answer to terrorism. They certainly know Trump isn't the answer to hatred.

Trump probably has already realized that hatred just took a big hit. No doubt the Republicans are now doubly dubious about their choice, picking hate just before the worse hate crime in American history. Hatred just became the worst viliain in America. Trump is sooo screwed.

[HuckleB]

100. +1

[uponit7771]

122. +1

[HuckleB]

99. Trump is homophobic, no? So is the terrorist/murderer.

How is Trump different from the terrorist/murderer?

[still_one]

103. The killer was American born, who was a homophobic bigot

[840high]

108. Are you ignoring his call to 911?

[still_one]

131. I was responding to the OP who speculated that Trump's anti-Muslim agenda would prevail

because of what happened in Orlando, and the implication that the "left" wing of the party would hurt the party unless they responded correctly.

I did this by pointing out what was known about the killer. He was American born, and a homophobic bigot. His call to 9/11 does not mean he was working with ISIS, though it was reported he had sympathies toward their agenda. He also had a history of violent and unstable behavior toward his ex-wife, and at least one co-worker had spoke to his anti-gay rants, and stalking with threats.

While most certainly there was a fundamentalist religious element that molded his hatred, and actions, those same characteristics are also prevalent among those associated with Operation Rescue, which included bombing of women's health clinics, mass shootings of Planned Parenthood facilities, and the killing of doctors that perform abortions.

Those who would vote for Trump because of his anti-Muslim and anti-immigration rants, were never going vote for any Democrat. For those who are independents, where this event would motivate them to vote for Trump, I would argue that it is highly unlikely that those independents would also have not voted for any Democrat.

If the FBI came out tomorrow, and said the killer acted on his own, I would be skeptical that it would change anyone's mind who said they would vote for Trump because of Orlando.

The comments coming out from many republicans are ignoring that the killer was an American, and a homophobic bigot, and focusing on his Islamic background. The only thing Democrats can do to counter that is speak to the facts

[Bluenorthwest]

138. Killers father born in Afghanistan, spouts anti gay rhetroic and is very actively political and

religious, in spite of his claims that religion had nothing to do with this. His hate for LGBT had religious roots, and it was religion that empowered and legitimized his hateful feelings. You affect that his bigotry is entirely unrelated to his family faith, which taught him that bigotry.

It is no longer acceptable to play games with this. 50 people are dead.

[still_one]

140. I never said his bigotry was unrelated to his religious belief. In other threads I was more

direct, but even in my comments above I mentioned as follows:

"While most certainly there was a fundamentalist religious element that molded his hatred, and actions, those same characteristics are also prevalent among those associated with Operation Rescue, which included bombing of women's health clinics, mass shootings of Planned Parenthood facilities, and the killing of doctors that perform abortions."

That he had a history of violent behavior, and was on the FBI's watch list shows that something went very wrong

[B Calm]

125. What could Obama done to prevent this?

[gordianot]

129. Living in the midst of Trump stupid it does exist and it reminds me of early Reagan supporters.

I hear ridicule of both Hillary and Trump. They do not tout Trump very loudly but they are convinced he is correct about Islam. After the election of Ronald Reagan I will never underestimate the ability of the electorate to be deceived. This election cycle reinforces that dread.

[runaway hero]

136. agreed.

[DCBob]

133. You sound like you would be happier on a RW site.

This is site is for Democrats who dont knee jerk blame entire religious groups for something a lone wolf psycho did.

[runaway hero]

135. not my opinion sir.

[DCBob]

137. What is your opinion?

[runaway hero]

139. We should not judge an entire religion because of one crazy person, same opinion as yours.

[DCBob]

142. Glad to hear that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

147. Any chance of a reply to #111?

It really would give this thread some point if we knew what you are suggesting should change in government, or Hillary's, policy.

[malaise]

141. If the so called Left does not stop screaming behind RW memes

it is all over

[Odin2005]

144. This is not about "Islam", this is about fundamentalist militant Islamism.

Blaming this on Islam is like insinuating all Christians are Ted Cruz.

No go back to your spot under the RW rock you came from.

[Demsrule86]

146. People want simplistic easy answer and there are none.

You don't wipe out terrorism easily. What we can do is make our guns laws so that a guy like this can not buy a gun and ban assault weapons...no one needs them...ban the bullets that can shoot 50 or 100 rounds at a time.

[G_j]

155. If the Left does not wake up about (insert group here), Trump will win

sounds familiar..

[Hekate]

156. Hillary should learn "how to channel feelings and rage" like Trump does?

Last edited Mon Jun 13, 2016, 06:48 PM - Edit history (1)

I really, really, really prefer candidates who can speak in complete compound sentences.

Are we regressing to preferring to have a beer with Dumbya (a recovering alcoholic who couldn't drink beer anyway) than with Al Gore, who actually knew what was going on in the world?

At least let me remind you that Gore actually got more votes than Idiot Son in 2000, and then after 8 years of Bush the country voted in a guy with all the charm in the world, who also happens to be coolly cerebral and (as he says of Hillary) wicked smart.

So what is it about Islam that you want the Left to "wake up to"? That a billion people are Muslims? That American Muslims are in our armed services? That Muslims have been part of our country since the beginning, though as a minority?

Or do you think that Islam itself is inherently evil, and all it's adherents are out to get us?

In the broad scheme of things, Americans are out to get us. Mother Emmanuel Church, Sandy Hook Elementary School, Columbine High School, UC Santa Barbara/Isla Vista, any number of post offices -- and let's not forget thousands of young men of color picked off one by one by the men in blue. All of this slow-rolling massacre of US citizens is carried out almost 100% by white males born in the USA of American parents of Christian background.

Help me understand how all the Muslims in the world are to blame for this psychosis, and how Democratic politicians learning to behave like RW demagogues would help.

[sibelian]

162. Trump provides what appears to be a prosaic solution.

It won't work, obviously.

Perhaps the best strategy is not to talk about his hair or his arrogance or all those other things but simply to explain why it won;t work.

But, that, of course, entails actually understanding why it won't work.

[runaway hero]

173. Exactly.

We know this, but do the talking classes?

[Egnever]

175. .

[AgadorSparticus]

176. There is nothing to wake up about except to preach more tolerance and love.

I don't know about anyone else, but most people I know (myself included) would leave the party if it started advocating ignorance, division, and hate. I don't want to claim a party of rage and hate. I will be an independent before that happens.

[Quantess]

179. Just look at the rise of RW nationalism in Europe

Europe is no longer the europe it was, after taking in so many muslim immigrants.

The US does not have nearly the same amount of muslims as Europe, so the American people out of touch on the subject, really. Stick your heads in the sand if you want, liberals.

[YvonneCa]

183. So. What did you all think of President Obamas's speech about this today? Link...

... http://www.c-span.org/video/?411147-1/president-obama-delivers-statement-us-operations-isis