Institutionalized homophobia and guns. Under convenient cover of radical Islam. That's what this

[JudyM]

is. "Islamic terrorism" may be involved but what we are clear on his hatred of gays. We know he was emotional about that, and that he planned this in advance. At an LGBT club.

All the media talks about and researches to "inform" us about, and pretty much all the political dialogue is also about, is Islamic terrorism and how to combat that. This is a deflection from the clear as day fact that this was an anti-LGBT act. Why so little delving into that? Makes the political/media establishment uncomfortable. Not as expedient to their goals as Islamic terrorism is.

If it's terrorism at all it is anti-LGBT terrorism. No one seems to care to talk about how to handle that.

[David__77]

1. Why does it have to be so tortured?

It was terrorism aimed at gays.

If one opposes the premise of the word "terrorism," then it was anti-gay killings.

[JudyM]

2. Exactly. Check out this clip that DUer Bad Dog posted.

It's exasperating that these deaths are not enough to start a national dialogue on homophobic violence.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1487297

[Bad Dog]

9. Owen Jones has written about this experience.

I am reluctant to dwell too much on my appearance on Sky News last night, because this isn’t about me, so let’s just use it as a case study. In sum, I walked off in disgust during a discussion about the massacre: it was an instinctive reaction to an unpleasant and untenable situation. The presenter continually and repeatedly refused to accept that this was an attack on LGBT people. This was an attack “against human beings”, he said, and “the freedom of all people to try to enjoy themselves”. He not only refused to accept it as an attack on LGBT people, but was increasingly agitated that I – as a gay man – would claim it as such.

If a terrorist with a track record of expressing hatred of and disgust at Jewish people had walked into a synagogue and murdered 50 Jewish people, we would rightly describe it as both terrorism and an antisemitic attack. If a Jewish guest on television had tried to describe it as such, it would be disgraceful if they were not only contradicted, but shouted down as they did so. But this is what happened on Sky News with a gay man talking about the mass murder of LGBT people.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/sky-news-homophobia-orlando-sexuality

People are in too much of a rush to condemn Islam, (not just the fundamentalist types either,) to see what's going on. This was a homophobic attack on the LGBT community. If he'd attacked a synagogue nobody would have any problems calling it anti Semitic, but many of the most vocal detractors of Islam are also homophobic. Just like the right wing response to Black Lives Matter of All Lives Matter ignores the fundamental injustices against black people seeing this as just an Islamist attack on America ignores the homophobia in the Media and Society.

The gunman attacked a gay club, not a church, a military complex or a redneck bar, but a gay bar. That needs to be acknowledged and anti LGBT crimes need to be seen in their own right, not just a subset of IS or TP terrorism.

[JudyM]

13. Exactly! The story is now more complicated with the discovery that he apparently had a history

of hanging out in the community.

[Bad Dog]

15. A gay friend of mine told me the nastiest "queer bashers,"

tended to be cruising the night before. Self loathing and guilt can be extremely destructive.

[King_David]

36. I doubt he was Gay,nobody has come forward to say they slept with him or had any relationship with h

[JudyM]

38. There's at least one guy he was trying to connect with, corresponding via app for months.

Horrific that they saw/acknowledged each other for the first time as he was dropping his friend off at the club, and the friend was killed.

Thinking about it now... The shooter must've been there earlier than 2am as they're reporting his arrival time. Because why would someone drop their friend off at the bar at closing time? Unless taking a chance on a quick connection...?

[King_David]

39. Nobody said they had a hookup or any sexual relationship

"Attempt to "is more like casing out.

In 3 years he must of had a few sexual relationships.

Doubt he was gay.

[RobertEarl]

3. Republican justice?

There was a transgender person in a bathroom. The law says that is not allowed.

[msongs]

4. homophobia and guns AND Islam. his anti gay beliefs did not just pop out of a cheeerios box nt

[JudyM]

7. It's not just Islam that promotes anti-LGBT sentiments. Other domestic fundies do the same.

[uppityperson]

25. Good gods, I know many people who fit the homophobia and guns category and are also Islamphobic.

Anti-gay beliefs are prevalent amount many groups.

[jmg257]

5. Not to diminish this hate-crime attack, but reports he scouted Disney World too.

This was certainly targeted anti-LGBT terrorism.

[bonemachine]

6. The instant move to muslim baiting is fucking disgusting

Pitting one vulnerable minority against another is not good, and it plays right into the hands of Trump and his ilk. Not only that, but the folks who fall for it are not the brightest, and often anti-Muslim violence ends up directed at folks who aren't even Muslim and just happen to have the wrong skin color.


I say this as an atheist-leaning agnostic who strongly believes the world would be a better place without any religions.

[Quantess]

11. Oh those poor muslims, they are the true victims here.

50 people shot and killed, 50 wounded, in a gay club.

Yes, those tragic muslims, I feel so bad for them. They just suffered a huge loss.

[uponit7771]

22. In your opinion was it "Muslims" who did that? tia

[Quantess]

24. No. Typical knee-jerk response, on your part.

I mean, ALL muslims get stigmatized for this heinous crime by SOME people. That part is true.

But where in the OP is the sympathy and compassion for the murder victims and their families? Which is worse, to be shot and killed in this horrific way, or to be a muslim and have a worsened reputation according to some people?

Where are the priorities?

[uppityperson]

26. Balbir Singh Sodhi got his feelings hurt because of Islamphobia. Here's a link for you.

They aren't Muslims, but have been caught in the Islamic-bating-hating bs.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/07/history-of-hate-crimes-against-sikhs-since-911_n_1751841.html

[Quantess]

28. That's very interesting. Thank you for the link.

Does it have anything to do with the terror attack / mass shooting in Orlando?

[uppityperson]

29. It has to do with Islamphobia which this subthread is about.

It can end up with more than getting feelings or reputation hurt. Muslim baiting, Islamphobia, that is what this subthread is about.

[Quantess]

30. Okay, I can understand that. I personally was already aware that sikhs are not muslims,

but not everyone does. People who wear religious garb are going to get 1000x more shit than those who are dressed western, which is also why I believe it is unfair that (some) muslim females feel pressured to cover their slutty hair and cover their slutty skin in the sweltering heat, while the muslim males get to wear whatever they choose.

But in any case, who got murdered by whom? 50 people murdered, over 50 more injured. Muslim baiting?! How about terrorism against gays?

[uppityperson]

31. The thing I see happening is an attempt to change the narrative (I hate that term) from homophobia

to It's the Muslims Again!!!111

This accomplishes a couple things, including letting orangehead and his fearful followers be afraid and driving up support for the repubs.

It will inspire more fear of people dressed or looking at all from "over there", Islamphobia, making anyone like that or perceived as such someone to hurt. It removes focus on homophobia, which most of us are very much aware of and speaking out and working to get rid of.

"It's the muslims" = increased fear and support to big brother and acceptance of doing bad things to anyone who looks at all like "them"

"It's not a hate crime, it's not terrorism against gays, it's not homophobia, it happened because he was muslim". That takes away the focus on the real crime. Terrorism against gays.

" The instant move to muslim baiting is fucking disgusting

Pitting one vulnerable minority against another is not good, and it plays right into the hands of Trump and his ilk. Not only that, but the folks who fall for it are not the brightest, and often anti-Muslim violence ends up directed at folks who aren't even Muslim and just happen to have the wrong skin color. "

Your reply

" Oh those poor muslims, they are the true victims here.

50 people shot and killed, 50 wounded, in a gay club.

Yes, those tragic muslims, I feel so bad for them. They just suffered a huge loss."

This gives the fearful the ok to hurt those who they deem Muslim. This takes away from the real crime, the real terrorism.

I hope this explains better what I'm trying to get at. Thanks for the discussion.

[Quantess]

33. I have stated this before and I will state it again:

I will ALWAYS side with women, gays, transgendered people, cartoonists who get murdered or get death threats for depicting Mohammed, people of other religions who are threatened by some muslims.

Who got shot and killed?

Thank you for the discussion, as well.

[uppityperson]

42. Man arrested after threatening shooting at Seattle mosque

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/police-respond-to-armed-barricaded-man-in-north-seattle/

I'm posting it as an OP also.

[uponit7771]

21. +1

[villager]

8. Same with the workplace shooting in San Bernardino. Once they can conflate it with "terrorism,"

...they can ignore all the other contributing causes.

[CJCRANE]

10. ISIS and the rebels are carrying out anti-LGBT terrorism in the ME.

They are throwing gay people off rooftops.

They are wiping out non-radical muslims, christians and other minorities.

The regimes which support the rebels also execute gay people.

No one gives a fig about them apparently.

[JudyM]

14. Yes, great model of civilization.

[cali]

12. It's not either or. It almost never is. And we still just don't know enough. fucking period.

[King_David]

20. Yep

[Dreamer Tatum]

16. Only if the homophobic institution is Islam.

The sophistry is absolutely sickening. If this was a fat white guy from the First Baptist Church of Birmingham, there would be no Monday and Tuesday morning quarterbacking on DU. It would have a been a one-note chorus of wanting all guns confiscated and churches shut down. When Dylann Roof went nuts there were people who demanded that Rush Limbaugh and Hannity get tossed into prison, but an Orlando imam recently advocated death to homosexuals and the collective response on DU has been "So?"

Let me hazard a guess what the response would STILL be if Pastor Billy Clyde Johnson of First Baptist Church was on YouTube, advocating death to homosexuals, and a month or two later that pasty white guy obliged.

[Aerows]

37. The people sitting there giving creedance

to these assholes that advocate killing people without stridently denouncing them on the spot are complicit.

Do you think I go to a Baptist Church? I don't. I won't waste my time investing in a religion that says my life is worthless, and anybody that does is offering tacit approval. I'm done.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend it is okay, and "Oh, I'm sorry, when I said that, I didn't really mean it" and "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't really mean it when I voluntarily sat there and listened to such lunacy" doesn't cut it.

[Iggo]

17. He was a lethal combination of gay-hater, gun-fucker, and god-botherer.

Each leg of the stool keeps trying to blame the others, but it was all of them.

[JudyM]

18. And yet the former is not being covered much. POTUS just spoke at length about terrorism & guns,

yet left out completely the social causes of internalized homophobia as well as the issue of mental health, which appear to be the proximate causes of this massacre.

[uppityperson]

27. Exactly. Thank you.

[JudyM]

32. How are they continuing to ignore this? Huge elephant in the room: what elephant?

[King_David]

19. Homophobia and ISIS and Islamic extremist terrorism

Are all the same thing ....

Horrific moment two gay men are thrown off tall building by ISIS then stoned by baying mob including children

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3198283/Horrific-moment-two-gay-men-thrown-tall-building-ISIS-stoned-baying-mob-including-children.html

[JudyM]

23. If the administration and the media focused on that aspect and expanded the view to include

Hostility toward LGBTs in the US that would be fine. But the conversation is avoiding it. It's only occasionally raised, if that. Should be a key focus but of course, it's not. Politically unpalatable to look homophobia in the eye.

[Aerows]

35. I'm sick of it.

If there is such a thing as moderate Muslims, instead of doing the :nudge: :nudge: we didn't really support this despite the fact that we advocated it a day ago, then there has to be people coming to grips with the fact that the very people preaching to them, advocating to them are poisoning society.

I say the thing about Christian lunatics that think it is okay to execute people. Trying to hide behind some fig leaf of pretending that you didn't say the very thing you said 3 weeks ago in a public speech doesn't work for me, and I put those who sat there and listened to it as complicit right along with those that do so.

[Aerows]

34. This is the same fucking shit that happens

every time there is a terrorist rampage. Some islamic speaker goes on to speak publicly about how all gay people should be killed, because that is "the compassionate thing" to do to us.

The second somebody does go out and execute a bunch of people, it's time for them to pretend that "I don't support that, just because I said 3 weeks ago that they only compassionate thing to do is kill you all and let God sort you out."

They do the same things towards women that they feel are "enticing men" by not hiding away in fear of showing themselves lest they get acid in the face.

If Islam is going to be regarded as anything other than a religion of brutality, the tacit acceptance, and in many cases support of these actions needs to be vehemently and outspokenly denied.

Do not sit in a room with a person 3 weeks ago that said killing gay people is compassionate, and then turn right around when somebody does it and say "But I wasn't advocating this."

You opened your mouth and the words fell out, so don't you dare pretend that wasn't exactly the fucking thing you were advocating because I don't want to hear it.

[Rex]

41. Terrorists are bullies at their core and like all bullies that makes terrorists craven cowards.

I've given this a lot of thought over the years and this is my conclusion;

I don't care what their faith is, they take their own self-loathing and hurt other people as a remedy to their ills they find themselves in. Pure projection that is lethal.

However I believe their main trait is the craven coward part, that is why they have to use weapons to do their dirty work. Far too cowardly to walk up to a person and take them on in verbal combat. The brain frightens them, since they are not using it properly.

When I was a kid, I thought verbal combat (I was opinionated when I came out of the womb) was easy and physical combat was hard (watching John Wayne in warfare looked difficult), now that I have been a soldier and a teacher I see it is the other way around for the human race.

And that is a fucking shame.

[JudyM]

44. You're so right. They need to reconcile their preaching with the image they actually want to

portray. It is also a matter of degree. If the heart of the religion is love, as they say, their extreme wing is certainly missing that heart. I've never studied Islam, so I can't say.

[Rex]

40. It is terrorism toward the LGBT community. And what is even sicker are the fundies that are

happy about the dead victims. ISIS and some Evangelical fanatics seem to have something in common - they hate gay people to the point of wanting them dead. We need to have a national dialog on this subject.

[JudyM]

45. Exactly!-- our leaders need to spend time talking about homophobic violence, which

is clearly, based on their talking points, way down on the list behind terrorism, guns and how horrible their political adversaries are.

[Rex]

46. It makes me mad that they put this issue way down on the list of priorities.

I agree 100%.

[JI7]

43. being anti gay including killing gays is a regular part of islamic extremism