HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Last week I reread Shirer...

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 04:43 AM

 

Last week I reread Shirer's 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich'. Comparing Trump

Last edited Wed Jun 15, 2016, 05:22 AM - Edit history (1)

to Hitler is not hyperbole. Early Hitler and current Trump share a lot in common regarding personality traits. I'm not suggesting that Trump could achieve the murderous depths of Hitler and his gang of morally bankrupt goons, but that is not the point.

I think everyone here would agree that Trump not only poses a danger but has already done significant damage. Our political system was ripe for him to exploit. He is exploiting it.

I understand and share the reluctance to overuse comparisons to Hitler and the Nazis, to Mussolini and fascists, etc. But sometimes, rarely, it is necessary to drag those comparisons out of the dark past.

I don't know that it can or can't happen here. I do know that Trump's rhetoric, temperament and ability to brew hate and bigotry are happening now.

42 replies, 2608 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 42 replies Author Time Post
Reply Last week I reread Shirer's 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich'. Comparing Trump (Original post)
cali Jun 2016 OP
no_hypocrisy Jun 2016 #1
cali Jun 2016 #2
unblock Jun 2016 #3
C_U_L8R Jun 2016 #4
maindawg Jun 2016 #5
cali Jun 2016 #6
PADemD Jun 2016 #19
cali Jun 2016 #25
PADemD Jun 2016 #42
Bucky Jun 2016 #31
mainstreetonce Jun 2016 #12
BlueMTexpat Jun 2016 #7
DetlefK Jun 2016 #8
cali Jun 2016 #10
bucolic_frolic Jun 2016 #9
Gabi Hayes Jun 2016 #11
Gabi Hayes Jun 2016 #13
cali Jun 2016 #15
Gabi Hayes Jun 2016 #16
cali Jun 2016 #17
Gabi Hayes Jun 2016 #18
Bucky Jun 2016 #34
Gabi Hayes Jun 2016 #38
Scuba Jun 2016 #14
obamanut2012 Jun 2016 #20
Gabi Hayes Jun 2016 #22
obamanut2012 Jun 2016 #40
gregcrawford Jun 2016 #21
Gabi Hayes Jun 2016 #23
gregcrawford Jun 2016 #26
Gabi Hayes Jun 2016 #30
pampango Jun 2016 #27
Gabi Hayes Jun 2016 #32
Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #24
mainstreetonce Jun 2016 #28
First Speaker Jun 2016 #29
nolabear Jun 2016 #33
cali Jun 2016 #35
Bucky Jun 2016 #36
cali Jun 2016 #37
Gabi Hayes Jun 2016 #39
Blanks Jun 2016 #41

Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 04:53 AM

1. Developing your concept:

If not Trump himself, he could be the front for someone else who would try to take the US into a totalitarian regime based on persecution of a social group or more. And his voters would claim later (after the damage) that they had no idea he was going to do all that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 05:36 AM

2. those partially responsible will always deny and shrink from

 

the horrific results of their actions. With Trump, there is no way of saying "I didn't know, I couldn't have known".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 05:44 AM

3. people delude themselves into thinking "it can't happen here" because

we'd recognize the next hitler from his square mustache and swastika and stiff-arm salute and strong german accent.

failing to recognize that the next hitler will use instead words and symbols that appeal to contemporary america's sense of national pride instead.

more to your point, people also think only of the monster we knew hitler 1945 to be, failing to recognize that germans didn't vote for hitler 1945 and didn't vote for gas chambers. they voted for hitler 1933, who talked up the hate for sure, but certainly didn't talk about actually killing 6 million jews and 6 million more from others hated groups (gays, roma, etc.)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to unblock (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 05:50 AM

4. When Trumps yells and foams at the mouth at his rallies

It seems too reminiscent for comfort.
He just needs a little moustache, he already has the goofy hairdo.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 05:53 AM

5. You reap what you sow

 

I think it's a good thing for us. I think it's cleansing. These dark things need to be drug out in the open. The Republicans dogwhistle bigotry is worse.
When Obama got elected , I thought that it was good for the bigots to get it out of the closet. Air it out. Same here. People need to get it off their chest. They don't know how they really feel many are confused. Many lean one way or another. We need to talk about it. Even if it's the bad guy who makes us talk about it , let's talk about it.
Let's get it all out. The truth is always very obvious when you remove the smokey veneer of mystery.
Never mind that I am of the opinion that the Donald is playing political kabuky and the Republicans deserve to have their party crashed , burned and paved over Lord knows they deserve it. And if that's what the Don's up to then that's great.
If you did not see Hitler in the Shrub and Dick Rummsy and Wolfowitz then you missed the show.

I'll leave it there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to maindawg (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 05:59 AM

6. Nope. Didn't see Hitler in shrub.

 

Sorry, the comparison is not apt.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Reply #6)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:38 AM

19. You didn't see the similarity between the Reichstag Fire and 9/11?

Did you read that whole 1280-page book in one week? I took that book home for summer reading in high school and didn't get it finished by fall.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PADemD (Reply #19)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 08:54 AM

25. no. I didn't.

 

And yes, I did. I've read it at least 5 times. Including for post grad work. Hardly just in high school.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Reply #25)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 04:29 PM

42. I'm a slow reader.

It took me all summer just to get half way through the book.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PADemD (Reply #19)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 10:04 AM

31. I see what you did there.

You're one of them

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to maindawg (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:12 AM

12. Thank you

That is a way to see the current problem that I never considered. Maybe when things get this bad, we will learn. You give me hope.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 06:09 AM

7. Not hyperbole at all, IMO. eom

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 06:15 AM

8. Fun Fact: The Nazis weren't a perfect and precise bureaucratic machine.

They were actually nepotists who inserted political hacks into various positions of power. They weren't professionals. They were unqualified hacks with a political agenda.

To my knowledge, the only german entity that resisted Nazi-meddling to a significant degree was the german navy. But not because they were nice fellas. The german navy was simply so arch-conservative that they didn't want to have anything to do with all that new and hip Nazi-stuff.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DetlefK (Reply #8)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 06:21 AM

10. that is absolutely correct. The Navy leadership was

 

arch-conservative and in a very aristocratic way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 06:18 AM

9. The Book

"Friendly Fascism" (1980) by Bertram Gross, CUNY Professor foretold
the rise of the new fascism in the age of Reagan. Foundational work
has laid the present path.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:07 AM

11. he keeps hitlers writings at his bedside, iirc. btw, he's already written his inaugural speech:

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:12 AM

13. did he read the speeches before or after the raping, I wonder

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-ex-wife-once-said-he-kept-a-book-of-hitlers-speeches-by-his-bed-2015-8

In the Vanity Fair article, Ivana Trump told a friend that her husband's cousin, John Walter "clicks his heels and says, 'Heil Hitler," when visiting Trump's office

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gabi Hayes (Reply #13)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:23 AM

15. I'd forgotten that repulsive nugget, Gabi.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:26 AM

16. the wife raping is absolutely germane:

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/time-to-press-donald-on-raping-his-wife

With Trump's top GOP supporters now saying his deportation was never real and is actually just a matter of issuing undocumented immigrants with new paperwork, there's a growing list of questions reporters should really start asking Trump. But Trump himself has now moved on from immigration politics to dredging up allegations about Bill Clinton that range from unsubstantiated to discredited to ridiculous.

But here's the thing: Trump's former wife Ivana said Trump raped her in a sworn deposition. Given how central a role rape accusations have played in Trump's campaign - against Mexicans, political opponents, etc. it is clearly a highly germane question, as frankly it would be for any presidential candidate.

The details surrounding the alleged rape are bizarrely novelistic even by Trumpian standards. According to Ivana, Trump was driven to freakish rage by a failed anti-baldness surgery - a so-called 'scalp reduction'. But the actions are very clear cut. According to her deposition, Trump flew into a rage, attacked her, held her down and began pulling hair out of her head to mimic his pain and then forcibly penetrated her

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gabi Hayes (Reply #16)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:28 AM

17. Yes.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:36 AM

18. this came up first when I typed"trump hitler speeches"

 

https://m.


you should start a thread with this. people will read it

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gabi Hayes (Reply #18)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 10:11 AM

34. oh lordy, that doofus at 1:20 on the video! - - - He makes stupid look bad

"As soon as our economic system starts improving, the immigrants will go away"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bucky (Reply #34)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 10:29 AM

38. yep, but I liked better his response at 2:38-3:03 when

 

he supports the statements if trump said them, but, ooops, not hitler!

plus, the guy has Kliban hair

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:19 AM

14. To what should be horror to all of us, your analogy is wholly appropriate.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:40 AM

20. Many people don't know Hitler was legally elected

And, people were surprised, because he and the Nazis were considered clownish thugs at best.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #20)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:50 AM

22. what will his Reichstag Fire be? Reagan's was The October surprise

 

that said, with the Pug "leadership" running away in droves, trump may have reached his watershed....rats deserting a sinking ship, and all.....one can only hope

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gabi Hayes (Reply #22)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 03:33 PM

40. Probably something about Muslims

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:46 AM

21. Comparing Trump to specific historical figures...

... limits our perception of the larger problem. Mussolini called himself the "Father of Fascism," but he preferred to call his system of government, "Corporatism." Regardless of what you call it, Fascism or Corporatism, the system is defined most simply as the collusion of Big Business and Big Government. And no one with an IQ surpassing room temperature can deny that Fascism v.2 is alive and well in corporate America; they just dress in Armani instead of childish uniforms. The Donald is just the most brazen figurehead for an entrenched system determined to subvert the tattered remnants of "democracy."

The Trans-Pacific Partnership, if this evil abortion becomes law, will be the unveiling of full-blown fascism, sans any attempt to mask it as something else.

Comparisons between The Donald and Adolf Schickelgruber (his surname at birth) are undeniably apt, but he is just the clown on one hand used as misdirection, while the other iron fist crushes any and all criticism or dissent. All of us on DU will have targets on our backs if this evil snake manages to slither into the White House.

My apologies to all snakes for the analogy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gregcrawford (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:56 AM

23. couldn't agree more, but how is the current dem leadership economically any different? TPP says

 

it all.

remember Carters 1977 energy speech? his own party sabotaged his presidency from the getgo.

read Walter Karp, Liberty Under Siege

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gabi Hayes (Reply #23)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 09:07 AM

26. They aren't any different...

... or Obama wouldn't hustling for Fast-track authorization of that corporate coup d'etat masquerading as a "Trade Bill."

The establishment of super delegates in '82 may have been prompted by McGovern's candidacy 10 years earlier, but Carter's election despite the wishes of party elite, very likely sealed the deal, and there is no question that the they sandbagged him at every opportunity.

Despite what True Believers preach, those at the top don't give a rat's ass about actual democracy – I would refer you to the writings of Allen Dulles on that topic – they care only about amassing power. Or, to put it more succinctly, achieving dominion over the lives of others. "Power" is just a more vague and less directly threatening term; they're the same fuckin' thing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gregcrawford (Reply #26)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 10:00 AM

30. Dulles brothers: two fascist monsters, working both in front of and

 

behind the curtain to make the US GREAT!

just ask Mossadegh

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gabi Hayes (Reply #23)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 09:20 AM

27. Trump and the republican base are more nationalistic (as was Hitler) in economics, culture, military

He and they oppose international agreements on nationalistic grounds, i.e. such agreements limit our sovereignty by restraining our freedom for unilateral action. In any international agreement we agree to do or not do some set of things in exchange for another country or countries agreeing to do or not do certain things. Trump would 'rip up' the Paris climate agreement, the Iran nuclear agreement, NAFTA, the WTO and a long list of other international agreements because they all harm, in his eyes, our 'national sovereignty'.

In general Democrats and liberals tend to be less nationalistic, more accepting of diplomacy and negotiated international agreements as the means of solving international problems rather than unilateral American action than are republicans and conservatives. That is apparent in all polling I have seen.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pampango (Reply #27)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 10:06 AM

32. the modern, third way, dem is almost indistinguishable from

 

Il Duce's own version of fascism:

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”

he's described it in several ways, but this, to me, is the most apt

the difference between the two major parties along these lines is merely a matter of degree

until we take money out of politics (i.e. legalized bribery), it's only going to get worse

this, of course, is extremely unlikely to happen, given their stranglehold over the legislative process

so obvious, but any laws they pass to palliate this process would be cutting their own throats

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 07:59 AM

24. A great book and a cautionary tale, I agree.

I take comfort from the US constitution which would make something like the enabling act almost impossible to push through here.

By the way, Shirer writes very well but his attitude towards homosexuality is very much "of his time".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 09:30 AM

28. This is so timely

I have always said I don't make or support Hitler comparisons.

This morning before I read this I decided it is time to acknowledge some of the comparisons to Trump are justified.
This post says much of what I was just starting to accept.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 09:56 AM

29. Acknowledging that America in 2016 is not Germany in 1933...

...I'm still appalled by how much *is* similar. Germany's defeat in World War One is an event of a totally different order than the USA's Mideast fiascoes--but still, the shadow of military disaster does darken our country. The Great Depression isn't comparable to the Great Recession, and we are slowly coming out of the latter--but many people don't believe this, and our middle class is hollowed out. Unscrupulous demagogues attacked every institution of Weimar, especially, of course, the Communists and Nazis. We have no comparable institution on the Left remotely like the Communist Party, and that's the biggest difference between the two countries. But years, decades, of the Fox "news" network? It's pure Goebbels, and I say this as one who once studied Nazi propaganda techniques in some detail. Their hatred of "liberals" is just as great as the Nazis' hatred of the Jews, and I do not say that lightly. And, to be fair(?)--Hitler was unique, sui generis. There never was, or shall be, anyone quite like him. Trump personally is more like McCarthy, a cheap demagogue/clown who's riding a wave of dissatisfaction and hate. But given all this, he could still do immense damage to America's liberal democracy. A Peron-style banana republic is certainly possible, if not full-blown Nazi tyranny. And that would be bad enough...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 10:06 AM

33. From another thread: Live tweets from a Hitler-er-Trump Rally

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nolabear (Reply #33)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 10:16 AM

35. there are no words.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 10:19 AM

36. I don't like the Hitler comparison, but I'm okay with calling Trump Mussoliniesque

It's the same sort of clownishness. Because it's going on in America, it has to be about the cult of radical individualism and the envy of money, instead of the garish marching uniforms and appeals to grand cultural traditions. But Trump's politics of spectacle, fear, economic ignorance, and violent militaristic fantasies pretty much sums up Mussolini's political tactics.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bucky (Reply #36)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 10:24 AM

37. I think current Trump and Hitler in the twenties and early thirties

 

are far more similar in rhetoric and demeanor than Trump and Mussolini

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Reply #37)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 10:35 AM

39. if we could only be assured that this tailspin will continue on, resulting

 

into the fragmentation of the republican party, and the loss of influence of Fox-style 'journalism,' it will be a very sweet, schadenfreude-filled five months

things won't get any better under a Hillary regime, but it will be a finger in the dike of the inevitable corporate global takeover, as most clearly envisioned by TPP

ever read any William Gibson? over thirty years ago he envisioned a future controlled by internationally linked zaibatsu, where nation states ceased to be relevant

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Jun 15, 2016, 03:47 PM

41. I can't share this video enough..

Any time I see a comparison of Hitler and Trump, I think it's best to let Bill Maher have some fun with it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread