And, once again, the party charges up the hill of the useless Assault Weapons Ban

[Recursion]

Slow clap.

A law that would keep the weapons used in Newtown, Virginia Tech, and Orlando legal, if sold under different brand names and (in two cases) with modified handgrips. A law that ignores the absurd proliferation of handguns in the country but at least makes sure the magazine attaches behind the trigger housing rather than in front of it.

A law that can't even be said to "not go far enough" because it does absolutely nothing of any importance but makes people feel better in arguing for it.

This despite the fact that a ban on semi-automatics, which would actually address people's concerns about mass shootings, actually polls better. Nope, Democrats know when it's time to take up that albatross, and we're taking it up.

Well done, guys.

[likesmountains 52]

1. The discussion has to start somewhere...

[Recursion]

2. So why is it starting with a 20-year-old awful law?

I swear I'm halfway convinced this law was an NRA plant to give people a windmill to joust that doesn't actually do anything even if it passes.

Look, I'm the first to say "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" but this isn't "the good" or even "the mediocre". This literally keeps these weapons legal but changes the brand names they can be sold under.

(OK, that was hyperbole: it also says they can't have posts for mounting bayonets, or handgrips that extend perpendicularly from their bodies, or shrouds that cover both the top and bottom of their barrel.)

[Travis_0004]

5. Also, the Assault weapon ban was basically on the honor system

Collapsible stocks were banned on post ban rifles, but they were still for sale, and new ones were manufactured during the ban. It was legal to buy one and install it on a pre ban rifles.

They stopped making magazines. Those cost about 100.00 each, possibly more or less depending on the rifle.

[likesmountains 52]

7. Hopefully they will figure out he proper language...

[Recursion]

10. It's not a question of flawed implementation of the language it's fundamentally the wrong concept

Back in the late 1980s Al From wanted a "tough on crime" stance for his newly-formed DLC. He decided that gun control (which to that point had been a somewhat Republican issue) could be a good one. They decided that banning semi-automatics was not feasible, but if you took a selection of "scary-looking" ones and banned those scary-looking features, soccer moms would love it. But he wanted to keep the traction they were gaining with rural white males, so he let you keep the actual functionality of the underlying gun.

It was a completely cynical bait and switch, and is a fundamentally wrong-headed idea, which is not surprising given the source. Worse yet, whereas military-looking rifles were pretty fringe back in the late 1980s, they're incredibly popular now (due, in no small part, to the first AWB, during which their sales skyrocketed).

[likesmountains 52]

14. So, where do you recommend that the discussion starts?

[Recursion]

16. If we're focusing on the technology (which I think is wrong to begin with), a semi-auto ban

Or a rescheduling. Or a ban on semi-autos that can accept detachable magazines (see Uponthegears' suggestion downthread, which is a pretty good one).

Better yet, I'd rather focus on expanding Brady, because if I don't trust somebody with an AR-15 I honestly trust them even less with a handgun (which kills three orders of magnitude more people every year anyways). Honestly if somebody shouldn't have a gun I don't care what kind of gun they have, because if they can take detachable magazines, they can kill this many people (I think just as a factual point a lot of people don't get this, and think AR's are "more deadly" or something).

[fleabiscuit]

44. You are correct. I've been tweaking a 'make heads explode' mini rant I post...

“An assault weapon is one that is pointing at you” ~ Jesus, GUNS AR:15
A gun that won’t work if they steal one.

ALL Guns should be computer chipped to only operate in legally designated areas, and able to be overridden by legal authority. All POLICE weapons should be fitted with iSight type cameras and audio. All guns should have a built in “find my gun” feature to disable and recover lost/stolen guns. It is way past time for a 700 year old technology to advance to the 21st century.

In addition, guns sold to public:
~ Mandatory comprehensive universal background checks before guns are sold.
~ Mandatory comprehensive universal background checks before ammunition is sold.
~ All ammunition must be micro-stamped.
~ No fragmenting ammunition to be sold to civilians.
~ Mandatory 6 month waiting period to purchase a gun.
~ All guns and ammunition required to be stored in/with approved gun safes or gun/trigger locks at home.
~ All long guns to have fixed internal magazine of no more than 5 rounds.
~ Handguns to have fixed internal magazine of no more than 7 rounds.
~ No minors under 16 should be allowed to own or carry/handle a gun.

Including:
* National buy back program of all civilian non chipped modern guns. (paid for by gun makers)
* $50K fine for possessing working non chipped modern guns.
* $50K reward for reporting owners of working non chipped modern guns.
* Antique guns cannot be loaded or used in public space.
* Mandatory liability insurance for gun ownership.

Help stop NRA=ISIS.

[Adrahil]

17. It's not the language. It's the focus on meaningless cosmetic features and model names.

A lot of people don't realize that during the AWB, it was still perfectly possible to buy a weapon every bit as lethal as the weapons on the ban list. The ONLY useful part of that law was the ban of high-cap magazines.

I mean bayonet lugs? Really?

[scscholar]

22. But the cosmetic features are what drives...

people to do bad things. Clinton was correct in recognizing that.

[X_Digger]

45. Wait, what? A collapsible stock, a barrel shroud, and bayonet mount 'drive people to do bad things'?

Is this satire? I can't tell anymore.

[Mojorabbit]

48. It should make sense. This does not. nt

[Uponthegears]

3. Or . . .

Proposed law:

"No firearm shall be sold, otherwise placed in the stream of commerce, and/or possessed with a magazine capacity of more than 6 rounds. All magazines must be fixed, i.e., non-detachable. No magazine may accept a clip or speed loading device of any type. All firearms sold, otherwise placed in the stream of commerce, and/or possessed must require that each round be individually loaded into the magazine."

[Recursion]

4. I would vote for that in a heartbeat. It also polls better than the AWB.

I'd even grant that the clip ban is probably impracticable, but even so that's a huge rate of fire reduction we could get right there in three sentences. And, hell, I'd be willing to offer the concession of pinning the magazines at 8 rounds.

I don't think it would be a harder sell politically than the AWB and it would actually do something.

[Duckhunter935]

6. Well there goes my 1926 bolt action Mosin

And my bolt action Swiss K31

[Travis_0004]

11. I can't have my Henry lever action rifle?

I can take the tube off and drop in a few rounds at a time. And it even accepts more than 6 rounds.

[Uponthegears]

54. New Henry?

5 round in 30-30

45-70 4 rounds

Let me guess, you're so desperate to look smarter than those darn gun grabbers, you are going to include .22 lr

[Travis_0004]

57. .357

[Uponthegears]

61. I have no problem

Banning rifles chambered for pistol rounds.

[Recursion]

19. And I can't buy yard darts; what's your point?

We live in a society that occasionally keeps us from doing whatever the thing we wanted to do was.

[Duckhunter935]

28. I do not remember a right to lawn darts?

Refresh my memory. By the way they were fun when used properly.

[Recursion]

29. It's that long-ignored Amendment between VIII and X

I can't remember its number...

[Duckhunter935]

32. Well I remember a couple of amendments

That keep the government from taking our rights

[Uponthegears]

49. Your Mosin

has a 6+ round magazine?

[Duckhunter935]

50. The rifle accepts speed loading clips

Same as the Swiss rifle. See details matter.

[Uponthegears]

55. Oh my

We are desperate aren't we? Outlaw the clip, keep the gun, 2nd Amendment argument goes poof.

[Duckhunter935]

56. To bad that is not what you proposed.

So ban a piece of bent metal, interesting

[Uponthegears]

58. Oh I see

Well, in that case, tell me, how do those rounds come out of the clip . . . let's see, you take your finger, you push on the top round in the clip and the rounds come out into the magazine . . . oh yeah. . . one by one.

Are you sure you want to keep substituting semantics for substance.

[Duckhunter935]

60. Ah, good so all speed loading clips are good

We are getting somewhere now

[Uponthegears]

62. Don't own a revolver, huh?

Do you want to keep playing this game?

[Duckhunter935]

64. If I get another weapon it will be a revolver.

[Uponthegears]

65. Fair enough

[Travis_0004]

8. How you you design a magazine not to accept a speed loading device

If you can push a bullet into it, its possible to use a device to push multiple bullets into it.

[Adrahil]

18. This would ban antique bolt action rifles. NT

[Duckhunter935]

30. Yep

I am sure the poster is proud of that

[Recursion]

31. How many of those are manufactured nowadays?

I mean, yeah, you couldn't import an old Lee-Enfield. If that's honestly troubling we could make a curio exception for them.

[Adrahil]

34. His proposal included possession.

Applying this restriction to manual actions doesn't make any sense to me. No one guns down large groups of people with a bolt action rifle.

[Duckhunter935]

35. You said possessed

That is not manufactured. I think Henry rifles would have an issue as they are an American manufacturer that you would affect.

[Recursion]

36. I didn't say anything; I think this can only realistically happen at "next transfer" (nt)

[Duckhunter935]

39. My bad, another poster suggested this law

My apologies

[Recursion]

41. No problem; I did say I'd vote for it in the next post

In general I prefer operator restriction to firearm restriction, but, if we're going after specific firearms, this proposal at least actually addresses the problem people are trying to address.

[Uponthegears]

40. You mean

EXTREMELY RARE antique bolt actions.

The problem with a lot of gun "experts" is that they think they can scare off challenges by posting some irrelevant piece of trivia.

Next thing you know you'll be trying to educate us about "automatic" and "assault weapon" definitions.

Best you try that with someone else.

[Duckhunter935]

43. Not rare at all

Millions of them as they were WWI and WWII weapons

[Brickbat]

47. That outlaws my deer rifle.

[Recursion]

51. OK, and?

Next time you get a deer rifle it would need a fixed magazine. And?

[Hoyt]

9. Once we get the momentum to actually do something, handguns, etc., can easily be added. Right now

folks get the "assault weapon" issue and mass murders. But the problem is bigger than that, from daily crime, to people arming up for urban warfare. Time to get whatever guns we can off the streets and to cool gun proliferation. Go with the flow.

[Recursion]

13. The '94 ban caused the sales of military-style rifles to skyrocket

So, no, history suggests this won't be "getting guns off the street" but rather "getting guns off the shelves" as newly-compliant identically functioning weapons are marketed (consider it a stimulus package for gunmakers, maybe?)

It's a problem fundamental to the entire concept of the law because that entire concept is: don't limit the functionality of the weapon but do limit its shape. (Now, if that were to go so far as to, say, require a permanently-fixed 20-pound cinderblock to it, that might be something...)

[Hoyt]

26. Just ban semi-auto rifles with or without handgrips, foldable stocks, etc. Tell NRA and gunners they

had their chance, so go screw themselves. Then get semi-auto handguns. No more coddling gun yahoos. Follow the Australian model.

Christ, I feel like a Berner wanting to say, "what's with the No We Can't." There are a lot less rabid gun nuts than practical people who don't like armed George zimmermans under every fourth rock.

[Recursion]

27. Thank you! And that polls better than the AWB!

That would actually do something and it polls better. For that matter I'd go after the handguns before the rifles.

[Hoyt]

33. OK it's a done deal, on to health care.

[DustyJoe]

59. really

Why is it ok to lump all gun owners into one basket of gun humping potential murderers because of one terrorist shooter, but the president instructs us to NOT lump muslims into one basket because one muslim was the shooter ? Boggles the mind.

[Duckhunter935]

66. Yes it is

Some serious hypocrisy goes on.

[Hoyt]

67. Because gun owners are for stand your ground, lax laws, more gunz, do nothing, george zimmerman,

and worse. You wanna get serious about this issue, short- and long-term, fine. Mist gunners don't care as long as they have access to more gunz and can carry them anywhere.

You don't like Obama, fine. The majority of gun fanciers don't either. Trump is more their style.

[Duckhunter935]

63. Yep

Like NY SAFE act compliant non assault weapons. Ugly but functional.

[That Guy 888]

12. This might ironically be a good choice for incrementalism.

Start with repealing the stupid republican law that doesn't allow the Federal Government to keep track of gun violence data.

As far as the "assault weapon ban" goes, I think keeping a limit on magazine capacity is the only thing that matters from that. After all, how many of our mass shootings did the shooter use a bayonet for any of the murders? How many lives might have been saved if Gabby Giffords' shooter had a 5 or 10 round magazine instead of a 33 round magazine?

[Recursion]

15. Magazine size restrictions I'm fine with; it's the rest of the cruft that drives me insane

Start with repealing the stupid republican law that doesn't allow the Federal Government to keep track of gun violence data.

I'm totally down with that.

[Adrahil]

20. agree with that.

Ban the new production or purchase of any magazine with a capacity of greater than 10 rounds, excepting antiques.

[TeddyR]

21. So first

Did the guy who shot Giffords really have that big a magazine? Thought he used a pistol.

I support the right to keep and bear arms, but setting that aside an AWB is pointless. IF you want to make a difference implement a magazine capacity law that withstands constitutional challenges. A 20 round limit almost certainly would, and 10 probably. Anything less would be problematic.

[Adrahil]

24. There are very large magazine for some pistols. He had a Glock with a 33 rd mag.

Here it is:

[brooklynite]

23. When Senator Begich voted against expanded background checks, I asked him a direct question:

"What is your alternative solution"?

[Recursion]

25. Ironically, my alternative solution focuses more on background checks

Until Orlando the deadliest mass shooting in the US was Virginia Tech, which was done with handguns: it really isn't the particulars of the gun that matters; any gun designed in the last century or so can kill a lot of people in a short period of time. I'm much more worried about who has a gun that what specific gun he has.

For starters, I'd like to mandate all transfers of firearms go through a licensed dealer who will perform a background check. Every single one. Set a modest statutory fee so that they're not gouging people. Alternately do a pre-licensing system like Illinois does.

Personally I'd follow that with registration of all firearms. It would be an insanely rough political fight, but so will this, and my idea at least accomplishes something.

[Duckhunter935]

37. Both of those killers

Purchased the weapons at licensed dealers and passed the background checks. Just saying.

[Recursion]

38. And, as callous as this sounds, random mass shootings aren't the real problem

They move the public opinion needle but we're talking ~80 deaths a year in the context of 12,000 other homicides using guns.

Also in Cho's case Virginia has pretty much admitted he shouldn't have passed that check, but the commonwealth sucks about getting mental health adjudications entered into the system. So, throw a shit ton of money at that problem until it goes away.

[Duckhunter935]

42. We really do need to get the data right and shared

Between agencies and state and federal databases

[OffWithTheirHeads]

46. Yup! More bullshit grandstanding.

A background check would be a start but if it doesn't apply to gun shows its just posturing.

An assault weapons ban? What's an assault weapon? Any semi automatic gun? Good luck with that! If you don't own a revolver you probably own a semi automatic gun. Any idea how many millions of these are in circulation? Let's talk AR15s. According to some anti gun sources like Nicole Sandler who does not, and never has owned a gun ( and I love Nicole but this sounds like the people who have never seen pornography but know it's bad). There are currently over 25 million AR15s currently in circulation. How are you going to fix that? Do you really think everyone with an AR is just going to turn it in?

Let me tell you about the AWB in California. Could you buy an AR in California? You bet cha. It couldn't have more than a ten round magazine and couldn't have an adjustable stock but it was the same gun. Just didn't look as scary. Grandstanding.

This did a lot to prevent NOTHING because I could drive to Arizona and buy a Magpull adjustable stock and Magpull 30 round magazines without showing so much as a drivers license.

So, let's get serious about gun control.. There should be universal background checks to buy a gun, end of subject. You should also have to take a class in what the consiquences of using that gun are. If you shoot somebody, this is what you will go through.

But... Nothing will happen because our politicians don't actually want to fix the problem, they just want to grandstand.

Sort of like the undocumented workers. How do you fix that? Arrest the people that hire them. Good luck with that.

[Press Virginia]

52. Pistols were used at VPI

A 9mm and 22

[Recursion]

53. Yup. The detachable magazine is all that matters for volume of fire

But try to point this out and you're accused of spreading gun porn.