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cali

(114,904 posts)
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:50 AM Jun 2016

Last year, this man specifically warned Disney about alligators after his son

was wading in a lagoon and he saw an alligator heading for the boy.


In April of 2015, San Diego lawyer David Hiden took his family to the theme park. His five-year-old son waded calf-deep into a lagoon behind their hotel.

"I saw something rapidly coming on like a submarine," Hiden told CBS News. "And I look and I went, 'Oh my god. That's an alligator.' And it was probably about six to seven feet."

Hiden grabbed his son to safety -- and spotted a second alligator lurking nearby.

The family was staying at Disney World's Coronado Springs Resort, which is three-and-a-half miles from the Grand Floridian Resort and Spa, where two year-old Lane was killed.

But a year earlier, Hiden says he warned a hotel manager, and even showed her a photo he took of one of the gators.

"And the response, I couldn't believe it," Hiden said. "It was, 'Those are resident pets, and we've known about them for years. And they're harmless, they're not going to attack anybody."

<snip>

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/lane-graves-disney-warned-about-alligator-attacks-before-boys-death/

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Last year, this man specifically warned Disney about alligators after his son (Original Post) cali Jun 2016 OP
Kickin' it! In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #1
Disney is in deep shit. deservedly cali Jun 2016 #2
There will be a quick, generous, confidential settlement. Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #4
Only if the family agrees. They may decide to make Disney pay in more ways than financially. KittyWampus Jun 2016 #12
If I was the parent, I'd insist on Disney correcting the Ilsa Jun 2016 #33
You can't just move the alligators to the Everglades. pangaia Jun 2016 #40
Fine. But there needs to be a remodel of Ilsa Jun 2016 #64
I agree... pangaia Jun 2016 #93
Apparently one Disney employee leftieNanner Jun 2016 #119
I have read that gators can crawl over fences. nt tblue37 Jun 2016 #142
No need to read about it. Watch for yourself; A HERETIC I AM Jun 2016 #179
AAAAUUUGGGHHH!!! leftieNanner Jun 2016 #180
Have grass and rocks border the lake, because a white sand beach leading tblue37 Jun 2016 #141
Fine. But the Happiest Place On Earth needs an active hunting program. AngryAmish Jun 2016 #125
A good, maintained hurricane fence and some warning signs is all they need to do. bvar22 Jun 2016 #114
Yeah, at least a fence to discourage people from getting into the water. nt Ilsa Jun 2016 #116
This is Also What Happens When People are Poorly Paid McKim Jun 2016 #120
Yep, bingo laundry_queen Jun 2016 #122
To suggest that this manager Bluestar Jun 2016 #127
settlement complete with gag order and tk2kewl Jun 2016 #13
Thread winner. Baitball Blogger Jun 2016 #21
Disney should be ashamed! In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #6
I cannot believe that anyone who understands the nature of gators Baitball Blogger Jun 2016 #20
This is what I don't understand (and I confess I posted this on another thread yesterday) dflprincess Jun 2016 #134
I've stayed at this resort. Agschmid Jun 2016 #137
Because that is where they were at the time, because the resort encouraged families to come down to tblue37 Jun 2016 #143
For Coranado Springs that is not accurate. Agschmid Jun 2016 #167
"Those are resident pets" - actually they eat resident pets. n/t PoliticAverse Jun 2016 #3
On my visits to the South I learned to stay away from them. In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #5
I'm guessing the person that called them "pets" wouldn't actually have tried to pet one. n/t PoliticAverse Jun 2016 #9
I bet that person who called them "pets" is hating themselves now. forgotmylogin Jun 2016 #7
Disney should have a full time gator patrol. The public pays big bucks to visit in the park safely. In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #8
It's somewhat likely that they already do. Agschmid Jun 2016 #138
Then they need to do more. In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #161
I would add cannabis_flower Jun 2016 #22
Amphibious WatchWhatISay Jun 2016 #39
respect Florida Wildlife ,,, will not cut it.. pangaia Jun 2016 #41
Actually, they will eat young'ins. forgotmylogin Jun 2016 #67
They'd have to fence off the whole lagoon and compound. passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #124
So THIS guy says Corporate666 Jun 2016 #98
Maybe they were constantly warned about the gators laundry_queen Jun 2016 #123
the signs said "no swimming" not "stay out of water" magical thyme Jun 2016 #164
So the 'resident pets' weren't animatronic gators. Sorry for the dark humor KittyWampus Jun 2016 #10
me too. I'm flummoxed. This should never have happened. cali Jun 2016 #19
Exactly. The whole point of Disney is to have SAFE fun. Pretend risk. pnwmom Jun 2016 #29
Remember the film "Westworld"? That is what this reminds me of. nt tblue37 Jun 2016 #145
Disney World property is approximately 40 square miles. woodsprite Jun 2016 #11
It sounds like a 10' perimeter should be established around any bodies of water. KittyWampus Jun 2016 #14
I think at the time they said they had a 'gator net' in the River Country area woodsprite Jun 2016 #15
It better be a big fence Baclava Jun 2016 #50
And here is a video of a cat fighting an alligator and winning :) Else You Are Mad Jun 2016 #80
Good kitty! Stare em right in the eye! Baclava Jun 2016 #82
Cats don't mess around! Else You Are Mad Jun 2016 #83
Mine would likely Aerows Jun 2016 #176
Holy crap these people are FOOLS, are you KIDDING ME? brett_jv Jun 2016 #181
I think that was a stray cat. nt Else You Are Mad Jun 2016 #184
"No swimming" means what it says. It doesn't mean "don't even dip your toes pnwmom Jun 2016 #31
I hope people realize Disney and man are the invasive species in Florida. JonathanRackham Jun 2016 #16
My Orlando friend Sweet Freedom Jun 2016 #17
Are you defending the gator responsible for the attack? LS_Editor Jun 2016 #35
Only if the gator doesen't vote for Trump. JonathanRackham Jun 2016 #44
Alligators do what alligators do. They've been that way for a million years. Throd Jun 2016 #62
omg.. disillusioned73 Jun 2016 #18
If it were my child who died, truebluegreen Jun 2016 #30
Agreed.. disillusioned73 Jun 2016 #70
Irrationality abounds Corporate666 Jun 2016 #108
Codswollop. truebluegreen Jun 2016 #118
You're right. It was bound to happen eventually. Mariana Jun 2016 #140
How about signs that warn alligators are present that may feed on small pets and babies magical thyme Jun 2016 #165
How about not 'inviting kids to the beach' when alligators may be in the water AT ALL? brett_jv Jun 2016 #182
+1 uponit7771 Jun 2016 #130
"NO SWIMMING" I'm prettty sure most of us would agree means do not go in the water.... NoMoreRepugs Jun 2016 #23
They recently opened on-water bungalows from which guests have been FEEDING alligators jberryhill Jun 2016 #25
I don't understand your objection to the 1971 reference SpankMe Jun 2016 #34
Then let me help you understand jberryhill Jun 2016 #168
Who cares when the hotel opened? Old Crow Jun 2016 #135
It's pretty simple jberryhill Jun 2016 #136
The bungalos are at the Polynesian Resort, not The Grand Floridian resort. apnu Jun 2016 #170
An aerial shot is in the article I posted jberryhill Jun 2016 #171
I have been there. Stayed at the Poly, walked to the Grand for dinner. apnu Jun 2016 #173
The alligators don't have to walk jberryhill Jun 2016 #175
No, most of us do not agree. That's why in OTHER locales pnwmom Jun 2016 #36
It's Florida. cpwm17 Jun 2016 #24
So, you think Disney was correct in not telling the Bora Bora guests not to feed the alligators? jberryhill Jun 2016 #26
I'm not familiar with that situation. cpwm17 Jun 2016 #27
That's what was going on, management knew it, and didn't stop it jberryhill Jun 2016 #28
I've mostly stayed away from this news item cpwm17 Jun 2016 #32
Maybe they shouldn't have man-made lagoons where children belong. Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2016 #47
That's irresponsible on Disney's part. cpwm17 Jun 2016 #65
They're putting in a fence now spinbaby Jun 2016 #115
When they send alligators to that beach, they aren't sending their best... jberryhill Jun 2016 #169
Self-deleted dupe. nt tblue37 Jun 2016 #146
This woman says she took pictures of her own son wading in the lake tblue37 Jun 2016 #147
Floridian here, and that's true, but Disneys whole purpose is to create safe place lostnfound Jun 2016 #128
So this guy let his kid go into the water, past the signs that said no swimming liberal N proud Jun 2016 #37
wading is not swimming. cali Jun 2016 #42
Wading is in the water liberal N proud Jun 2016 #58
Umm.... Disney knew. Whiskeytide Jun 2016 #66
I always thought "No Swimming" meant stay out of the water PJMcK Jun 2016 #60
No Swimming means don't go in the water melman Jun 2016 #85
It was a "beach" Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2016 #52
You've been staunchly defending Disney, I don't get it..... steve2470 Jun 2016 #55
Parents need to be responsible for their children liberal N proud Jun 2016 #59
Haven't you read any of the posts above. mentalsolstice Jun 2016 #71
Some say? liberal N proud Jun 2016 #87
I have heard that witnesses.... mentalsolstice Jun 2016 #94
Fox "News" viewer? ( n) maddiemom Jun 2016 #131
There were no "watch for gator" signs for at the park d_legendary1 Jun 2016 #72
You mean like the parents of this boy who was't even in the water? kcr Jun 2016 #129
Sounds like you know a lot Corporate666 Jun 2016 #109
Proper signs = a few thousand dollars steve2470 Jun 2016 #110
Sounds like your wealth of inexperience is even greater previously demonstrated Corporate666 Jun 2016 #113
Ford figured likely deaths into its financial calculations when they decided not tblue37 Jun 2016 #148
When I was child in the '60s, alligators were considered an endangered species... 1monster Jun 2016 #38
Amen. bullsnarfle Jun 2016 #56
Those that feed the grizzly bears would probably become bear food liberal N proud Jun 2016 #57
That is a straw man. The argument being made is NOT that the tourists don't know that tblue37 Jun 2016 #149
Funny that you bring up chump. peace13 Jun 2016 #63
Actually, there are several companies Amaril Jun 2016 #91
Why not just play golf? Liberalagogo Jun 2016 #43
You got to play it as it lies Brother Buzz Jun 2016 #45
Or request a Mulligan. In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #106
I have golfed at that course many times. NCTraveler Jun 2016 #79
In Florida, gated communities eject 'resident' gators when they reach 3' in length, including tail. TheBlackAdder Jun 2016 #46
Disney has a 4-foot limit, but still, it is probably impossible to find them all. nt tblue37 Jun 2016 #150
Had an attack 30 years ago and 1 a couple months ago Omaha Steve Jun 2016 #48
Alligators don't make good pets. NaturalHigh Jun 2016 #49
We had a pet cayman when I was a girl. His name was George, and he reached 2 feet before he died: tblue37 Jun 2016 #151
Here is a story from one of my websites about a young man tblue37 Jun 2016 #152
Disney F******D up, it's as clear as the nose on my face steve2470 Jun 2016 #51
Not quite so fast.. I want to know the corporate decision processes that went into this Fumesucker Jun 2016 #53
Actually you are correct, I think this was a conscious decision by Disney to NOT scare the guests... steve2470 Jun 2016 #54
I have been making the Pinto analogy, too. It seems germane. nt tblue37 Jun 2016 #153
So many alligators in that area. Big ones, too. NCTraveler Jun 2016 #60
Not my mention is was at night. Feeding time, as I understand it. Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2016 #74
Dusk, dawn, and night are big feeding times. NCTraveler Jun 2016 #76
I saw this the other day Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2016 #77
I use to do a lot of bass fishing in lakes around my area at night. NCTraveler Jun 2016 #81
Excellent warning sign. In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #107
They're animals. They're wild. They go wherever the fuck they want. LeftyMom Jun 2016 #68
Um. bullshit. All Disney had to do was post "no swimming- alligators" cali Jun 2016 #73
exactly steve2470 Jun 2016 #75
The sign said no swimming. LeftyMom Jun 2016 #105
Unfortunately, this child didn't even have to in the water to be at risk. mentalsolstice Jun 2016 #117
I grew up watching "Wild Kingdom..." MrScorpio Jun 2016 #69
Maybe she watched and only paid attention to Marlin Perkins. Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2016 #78
By hosting "beach parties" by this particular body of water, and having benches present Butterbean Jun 2016 #84
excellent post nt steve2470 Jun 2016 #86
Thank you. n/t Butterbean Jun 2016 #88
great post. Thank you Butterbean, for putting it so well. cali Jun 2016 #89
:) You're welcome. n/t Butterbean Jun 2016 #92
You are right, Butterbean gademocrat7 Jun 2016 #102
Not just a beach party, but BEACH NIGHT! Night time showings of kid movies tblue37 Jun 2016 #154
Good gracious. :( n/t Butterbean Jun 2016 #177
article from Omaha Nebraska newspaper about the stricken family steve2470 Jun 2016 #90
Everything needs to be hermetically sealed at Disney. Quantess Jun 2016 #95
how about signs warning that there are alligators in the lagoons? cali Jun 2016 #97
Seems simple. There aren't any, is what you are implying? Quantess Jun 2016 #99
No. There aren't. That has been widely reported. cali Jun 2016 #101
Well, there are now. The barn door has been locked now that the horse has left. nt tblue37 Jun 2016 #155
I've seen the gators at Coronado Springs before. Ace Rothstein Jun 2016 #96
Thanks for this OP, Cali steve2470 Jun 2016 #100
They are going to be sued - and they should be. Chemisse Jun 2016 #103
No, Disney won't be sued shanti Jun 2016 #111
that depends on what the parents want to do. cali Jun 2016 #112
You're probably right. Chemisse Jun 2016 #126
They will settle big to avoid a lawsuit. nt tblue37 Jun 2016 #156
More. proverbialwisdom Jun 2016 #104
That "Splash Mountain Alligator" is just a little guy--barely 3 to 4 feet, I think. nt tblue37 Jun 2016 #178
I held a trade show there in 2009, and we were warned late one night about the gators. BadGimp Jun 2016 #121
You tell a parent there's gators in that water and kids WON'T be in it. Barack_America Jun 2016 #133
The whole reason people go to Disney instead of a state park or national forest pnwmom Jun 2016 #144
+1. So obvious. cali Jun 2016 #183
I was at DW last December Jubilant18 Jun 2016 #132
+ a brazillion. I am appalled by the posts sneering at the "stupidity" of out of staters tblue37 Jun 2016 #157
No one is lawyered up like the Mouse. McCamy Taylor Jun 2016 #139
With all this publicity they won't need to. Disney will offer a large settlement up front-- tblue37 Jun 2016 #158
Money may not be all that they want. n./t cali Jun 2016 #162
BIG LAWSUIT COMING !!! Hulk Jun 2016 #159
Gators, Florida. Common Sense Citrus Jun 2016 #160
Disney's gonna get sued so bad their lawyers are going to need lawyers... n/t leeroysphitz Jun 2016 #163
Yeah, see, the world is full of animals, they live here too. Jester Messiah Jun 2016 #166
you see, this is Disney World. They didn't even post signs warning not to feed cali Jun 2016 #172
I don't think the animals who have lived there for millenia got the memo. Jester Messiah Jun 2016 #174
Maybe Disney shouldn't have been threatening to confiscate cameras pnwmom Jun 2016 #186
If you want your child to be safe vacationing, Disney resorts have always been pnwmom Jun 2016 #185

In_The_Wind

(72,300 posts)
1. Kickin' it!
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:54 AM
Jun 2016
"And the response, I couldn't believe it," Hiden said. "It was, 'Those are resident pets, and we've known about them for years. And they're harmless, they're not going to attack anybody."


 

cali

(114,904 posts)
2. Disney is in deep shit. deservedly
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:57 AM
Jun 2016

Hiden went on to say that he told management that he hoped he wasn't going to read about a fatality due to their laxness but that he was sure he would be.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
4. There will be a quick, generous, confidential settlement.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:01 AM
Jun 2016

The last thing Disney wants is for people to be talking about this for years during protracted litigation.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
12. Only if the family agrees. They may decide to make Disney pay in more ways than financially.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:20 AM
Jun 2016

I would want my child's death to mean something. And if means making Disney the corporation wake the f*ck up as well as other families and the Government (both local, state and federal).

Because there is so much evidence pouring in that Disney knew of the problem and did nothing. The incompetence of the management.

How is it that zoos and recreation parks can be this loosely regulated?

How does a zoo have a gorilla enclosure open to the public where a child can simply climb in?

Ilsa

(61,675 posts)
33. If I was the parent, I'd insist on Disney correcting the
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:57 AM
Jun 2016

defect. Likely, remove the beaches so families aren't playing in the sand next to the alligators. Or fill the lagoons with dirt, move gators to Everglades.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
40. You can't just move the alligators to the Everglades.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:12 AM
Jun 2016

They are everywhere in Florida,, any body of water.....they will find it...

Ilsa

(61,675 posts)
64. Fine. But there needs to be a remodel of
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:41 PM
Jun 2016

The outside space to discourage parents from taking their kids, pets etc to areas where they can be attacked. Remove the beach, call it unusable space.

I couldn't live in central or south FL. I'd be wanting to kill the gators, and I don't want to go to jail over it.

leftieNanner

(14,997 posts)
119. Apparently one Disney employee
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:44 PM
Jun 2016

suggested that they build a fence in the slightly deeper water to keep the gators off the beach. Again, the answer from management was..... crickets.

I hope they sue Disney for massive amounts of money. This is sickening.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
141. Have grass and rocks border the lake, because a white sand beach leading
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:22 AM
Jun 2016

right up to the water's edge invites people to go to the water's edge--as do the bench swings and beach chairs placed close to the water, and the "Beach NIght" events where they show kids' movies to invite families with kids to hang out on the beach.

Keep the clear signs they have recently (too recently, of course) posted to warn about gators and snakes.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
125. Fine. But the Happiest Place On Earth needs an active hunting program.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:11 PM
Jun 2016

We used to kill monsters, now we invite them to kill our babies.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
114. A good, maintained hurricane fence and some warning signs is all they need to do.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:25 PM
Jun 2016

I've never seen the gator yet that could climb a hurricane fence,
and I've see a lot of gators. I grew up in South Louisiana.

McKim

(2,412 posts)
120. This is Also What Happens When People are Poorly Paid
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:58 PM
Jun 2016

People are poorly paid. Sp they have no stake in the business. They don't take responsibility and they are not respected by employers.
If this manager had a lifetime job to run this hotel, plus health and retirement and stock options in the business, something would have been done long long ago about those alligators. It's a flaky world out there when workers are not respected. And this is just one tragic consequence.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
122. Yep, bingo
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:54 PM
Jun 2016

who knows, it's possible some of the lower managers and front line employees brought this too the attention of the upper managers, but were told one of several things, either, "we're looking into it" or "there's no danger, nothing has ever happened" or "if you can come up with a realistic solution to this issue, THEN we will bring it to the higher ups" or "there is no money in the budget for that this year" or even, "yeah, that sounds like it could be an issue. I can reassure you this will definitely be looked at. Thank you so much for letting us know".

Ask me how I know all of these non-answer answers. At least at my job there are no lives at risk. So many times you, as a front line employee, can see the issue plain as day, and you are either told there is no issue, or you are told it is being taken care of and then nothing ever happens.

 

tk2kewl

(18,133 posts)
13. settlement complete with gag order and
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:21 AM
Jun 2016

Full book and movie rights owned by Disney to be locked away in a subterranean vault somewhere

Baitball Blogger

(46,574 posts)
20. I cannot believe that anyone who understands the nature of gators
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:13 AM
Jun 2016

would call them pets.

They are, indeed, in deep shit.

dflprincess

(28,057 posts)
134. This is what I don't understand (and I confess I posted this on another thread yesterday)
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:55 PM
Jun 2016

Disney has a reputation of going to war if there is any reason to even suspect a bed bug might be in a room.

It falls all over itself making sure all the guests' items are steam cleaned and, of course, they get a new room. Sometimes people come back from a day at the parks to find their room has been changed and their belongings cleaned because the maids are taught to look for the tiniest sign of bugs and notify management so it may dealt with immediately. (This is in contrast to many other hotels that, apparently, couldn't care less if there are bugs - they find denial better than dealing with it. It's also a smart reaction as it helps prevent a major infestation.)

Nobody is going to leave "the happiest place on earth" with bugs if Disney can help it, it's bad for business.

But they didn't take the alligator threat seriously?

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
137. I've stayed at this resort.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:07 AM
Jun 2016

There is an amazing pool, even has a water slide.

Makes me wonder why folks are choosing to wade into unmarked lagoons.

Seems a bit odd to me.

Just saying.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
143. Because that is where they were at the time, because the resort encouraged families to come down to
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:26 AM
Jun 2016

the lovely white sand beach to watch kids' movies for "Beach Night."

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
167. For Coranado Springs that is not accurate.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 09:48 AM
Jun 2016

For the Grabd Floridian yes, but I was specifically talking about Coronado.

There isn't any lagoon near Coronado that I would even come close to swimming in.

In_The_Wind

(72,300 posts)
5. On my visits to the South I learned to stay away from them.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:12 AM
Jun 2016

Golf courses, parks, nature trails are full of gators ... from the Carolinas and all parts south. Anything small is fair game, snack time.

forgotmylogin

(7,496 posts)
7. I bet that person who called them "pets" is hating themselves now.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:13 AM
Jun 2016

Sad to say, they should update the signs from "no swimming" to "No swimming or wading - keep arms and legs out of the water -danger of injury or death - respect Florida Wildlife" to keep it clear that drowning is not the issue, the critters are.

Because alligators are going to be attracted to the shore when they see a small mammal the size of their normal prey splashing at the edge.

I wouldn't foul Disney for installing some dams or gratings to keep adult gators out of their lagoon.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
41. respect Florida Wildlife ,,, will not cut it..
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:15 AM
Jun 2016

The sign should just say,..

KEEP OUT.....ALLIGATORS -- THEY WILL EAT YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!

forgotmylogin

(7,496 posts)
67. Actually, they will eat young'ins.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:21 PM
Jun 2016

If you look at the small number of fatal alligator-related attacks each year, it's only very small children who are taken from land or shallow water. Everyone else older than toddler is listed as "swimming".

Which is what the sign said not to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_alligator_attacks_in_the_United_States

passiveporcupine

(8,175 posts)
124. They'd have to fence off the whole lagoon and compound.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:11 PM
Jun 2016

Gators can and do cross land. But they could at least install some attractive three foot high, wrought iron fences along the beaches so no one can actually get in the water and gators can't get up on the beach.

Corporate666

(587 posts)
98. So THIS guy says
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:26 PM
Jun 2016

On the other hand, I've read multiple accounts from people who have stayed at the same hotel and said they were constantly warned by the staff about gators in the water.

Not to mention it's posted that people should not be in the water.



Why on earth do people take an unsubstantiated report from an individual and believe it as gospel? Just because Disney is an evil corporation?

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
123. Maybe they were constantly warned about the gators
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:58 PM
Jun 2016

because the staff knew their higher ups were doing fuck all to improve the situation and they were doing their darndest to warn everyone the best way they could. Unfortunately it's not always possible to talk one on one with every single guest.

Nice username.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
164. the signs said "no swimming" not "stay out of water"
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:48 AM
Jun 2016

and none of the signs warned about gators.

Strangers from afar could think the "no swimming" was because there were no lifeguards present.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
10. So the 'resident pets' weren't animatronic gators. Sorry for the dark humor
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:16 AM
Jun 2016

but it is almost inconceivable to me that this happened. It's almost too surreal.

The family must be equally grief-striken and outraged at this point.

The management team in Orlando sucks big time. It isn't just Disney who should be held liable.

It's not just the corporate management. It's the ones in Orlando too.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
29. Exactly. The whole point of Disney is to have SAFE fun. Pretend risk.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:50 AM
Jun 2016

If people want to take a chance on real risk, they can go camping in a state park or forest. They're not spending hundreds or thousands on a Disney vacation with children in order to subject them to encounters with real alligators.

woodsprite

(11,853 posts)
11. Disney World property is approximately 40 square miles.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:17 AM
Jun 2016

and almost 12,000 acres of that are dedicated to a wetlands wilderness preserve. Disney is in Florida and Florida has alligators everywhere. We've been visiting Disney before and have seen them sunning themselves on the banks of waterways within the park property. The most I think they have on them is they didn't have signs that specifically said - Danger! Alligators! Although the 'No Swimming' sign definitely means stay out of the water.


Edited to add: Whenever we stayed at the DW Fort Wilderness campground and visited "River Country" (now closed), there is no way that I would let the hubby or kids swim in the natural beach area just because of the risk of gators.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
14. It sounds like a 10' perimeter should be established around any bodies of water.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:23 AM
Jun 2016

I have no idea how… fences, low walls, shrubs?

woodsprite

(11,853 posts)
15. I think at the time they said they had a 'gator net' in the River Country area
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:26 AM
Jun 2016

I wasn't about to trust a net to keep them out of the area where kids and adults were splashing about, using the rope swings, water slides, and inner tubes.

There are plenty of water things to do inorder to cool off at Disney, so they wouldn't "need" to use the beach areas, etc.. DW could use some of the really invisible type fencing they use in the Animal Kingdom if they were concerned with aesthetics.

 

Baclava

(12,047 posts)
82. Good kitty! Stare em right in the eye!
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:21 PM
Jun 2016

Pop em right on the nose. Cats ain't askeeered of no old reptiles!

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
181. Holy crap these people are FOOLS, are you KIDDING ME?
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 06:34 PM
Jun 2016

WOW.

This is their pet? They had a chance to pick it up and get it outta there and they don't? And their young children are just milling around with two large gators just feet away?

WTH is wrong with these people?

Else You Are Mad

(3,040 posts)
184. I think that was a stray cat. nt
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 07:42 PM
Jun 2016

And, I think these people are morons. But, that doesn't detract from the badass-ness of the cats. But, I am guessing they are southerners that deal with alligators all the time.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
31. "No swimming" means what it says. It doesn't mean "don't even dip your toes
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:56 AM
Jun 2016

in the water." In most localities, the issue is potential drowning and the lack of lifeguards. That's why they're posted for "no swimming." People from outside of Florida won't be accustomed to worrying about alligators in waterways -- particularly a man-made Disney lagoon.

But at least one report by officials yesterday said that the family wasn't in the water -- they were sitting on the beach. The alligator lunged out of the water and snatched the boy. And there are photographs showing that Disney chairs and tables are lined up just a few feet from the edge of the water. Clearly Disney wasn't taking the risk seriously.

JonathanRackham

(1,604 posts)
16. I hope people realize Disney and man are the invasive species in Florida.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:35 AM
Jun 2016

Gators were there first. Disney built in their home.

I only have to contend with deer and raccoons. They eat my shrubs, raid my garbage cans and crap in the yard. My sister in Florida on the other hand ends up with snakes and gators in her pool.

 

disillusioned73

(2,872 posts)
18. omg..
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:09 AM
Jun 2016

Well, we officially have witness #1 for the plaintiffs if Disney doesn't do the right thing by this poor family that lost their 2 year old son in such a horrific & tragic way..

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
30. If it were my child who died,
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:55 AM
Jun 2016

my first thought would not be how much money I would be paid, but rather how much pain could be inflicted on the corporation and responsible individuals.

Massive publicity, criminal and civil charges, massive fines, whatever.

Talk about living in a dream world--what sane person would consider a gator domesticated?

 

disillusioned73

(2,872 posts)
70. Agreed..
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:29 PM
Jun 2016

I hope my "poor family" reference didn't come off as monetarily poor - just a sympathetic poor..

You do have a point about making Disney pay on various levels..

Corporate666

(587 posts)
108. Irrationality abounds
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:58 PM
Jun 2016

You're taking the word of a lawyer who claims the conversation went the way he said and suggesting you would want to "make the corporation pay" including *criminal* charges.

Who broke the law, exactly? And what law?

It's the first time this has happened in the 45 years the park has been in existence. The have over 50 million visitors annually, and I'm sure it's billions since they opened.

So we're literally talking about a one in a few billion event. To what extent do we need to "protect" from such things? People are talking about hiring a team of people to relocate alligators, reconfiguring protected wetlands, installing ecosystem-changing fencing and more - because ONE incident occurred in billions of visitors.

The kid was in the water, unsupervised at that moment. What percentage of the blame is the parents compared to Disney World? And what percentage is "shit happens".

Based on some of the ridiculous overreactions in this thread, if a kid falls and scrapes their knee on the sidewalk, we need an immediate army of sidewalk monitors throughout the country, and we need to issue jeans to every kid and hand protectors, and pass a law that they must be worn 24/7, and tear up all sidewalks and install that rubber stuff they put in playgrounds, and make mandatory training for kids a requirement throughout the country, and on and on.

Let's not even talk about alcohol being legal or cigarettes or cars being able to go more than 30mph or not having every train surrounded by advanced crowd control and surveillance electronics, etc.

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
118. Codswollop.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:43 PM
Jun 2016

1. I'm not taking the word of anybody, and certainly not of some lawyer I didn't even refer to.

2. I don't effing care how long "the park" has been open. This particular section (the Bora Bora Bungalows) is quite new, but already several witnesses are being reported as saying that guests had been feeding the gators, that the gators were accustomed to humans, etc. Management ignored said warnings, there were no signs, no barriers, no action taken. Granted I am not an attorney but that sounds like criminal negligence to me.

3. Apparently the child was not swimming, or wading; he was on the adjacent beach with his family following the conclusion of some evening entertainment. Evening entertainment...in gator habitat...critters that habitually feed at night...a fact that should have been known to employees and operators of the facility, but was likely unknown to tourists.

Fuck the "shit happens" crap. This was a set-up for a tragedy and that's what they got. Throw the fucking book at them (and I don't mean low-level employees).

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
140. You're right. It was bound to happen eventually.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:41 AM
Jun 2016

If you have gators in the area, you don't tempt them by just allowing small children to play at the edge of the water.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
165. How about signs that warn alligators are present that may feed on small pets and babies
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:54 AM
Jun 2016

Not just "no swimming," but no wading and stay away from the edge of water.

How about if you're going to invite people with small children down to the beach for kid's movie night, you advise them to stay well away from the edge of the water while they're there because there could be alligators lurking.

Ps, this kid didn't fall and scrape his knee. He was taken by an alligator and killed in front of his parents.

It's really not rocket science. It's a resort with visitors from around the world who aren't likely familiar with the local wildlife and dangers.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
182. How about not 'inviting kids to the beach' when alligators may be in the water AT ALL?
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 06:42 PM
Jun 2016

There's always that wacky, crazy approach I suppose ...

NoMoreRepugs

(9,260 posts)
23. "NO SWIMMING" I'm prettty sure most of us would agree means do not go in the water....
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:29 AM
Jun 2016

from BBC Earth... "A 2010 report tallied all the reported alligator attacks over the 81 years from 1928 to 2009. It found there were only 24 deaths from alligators in the United States, most of them in Florida."

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160616-it-is-surprisingly-rare-for-an-alligator-to-kill-a-person

approximately 50 MILLION people per year visit Disney World... (opened 1971)

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
25. They recently opened on-water bungalows from which guests have been FEEDING alligators
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:35 AM
Jun 2016

Saying the park opened in 1971 is just plain ignorant of the circumstances.

This hotel opened in 1988, not 1971.

A few months ago, Disney opened up the "Bora Bora Bungalows" across from this beach.

The bungalows are built on piles in the water.

Guests have been feeding alligators from the decks of those bungalows, and employee complaints went unheeded.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3645504/Disney-ignored-employees-complaints-guests-2-000-night-bungalows-feeding-alligators.html

The problem has allegedly been exacerbated by the opening of the new $2,000-a-night Bora Bora Bungalows, a an expensive collection of private rooms situated directly on the Seven Seas Lagoon - just across from the beach where Lane was snatched.

The bungalows have private porches and guests apparently feed the alligators as they float past.

'Disney has known about the problem of guests feeding the alligators well-prior to the opening of the bungalows,' said an insider. 'With the opening of the bungalows, it brought the guests that much closer to wildlife. Or, the wildlife that much closer to the guests.'

A few employees said they had complained about the bungalow guests feeding the alligators, but alleged that park officials may have been hesitant to reprimand guests staying in $2,000-a-night suites.

'Disney knew these alligators had become desensitized to humans, as they had begun to associate guests with food, and did not act in a proactive manner,' the insider added.

--

What does "opened 1971" have to do with what happened?

SpankMe

(2,937 posts)
34. I don't understand your objection to the 1971 reference
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:59 AM
Jun 2016

It is a fact that Disneyworld opened in 1971. I don't know how you can say that pointing this out is "ignorant of the facts".

All the poster was doing was referencing an article which happened to mention when Disney opened.

Perhaps the context was that Disney has had over 45 years overall to gauge the dangers of alligators on their property, and failed to mitigate that risk.

Frankly, I don't see the relavence to this discussion of the fact that the hotel opened in 1988. Now, what does THAT have to do with anything here?

You strike me as a grumpy, hyper-correctionist semantics twister.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
168. Then let me help you understand
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:52 PM
Jun 2016

Although give that you seem more interested in personal insults than rational argument...

"Perhaps the context was that Disney has had over 45 years overall to gauge the dangers of alligators..."

No, they have not been operating this hotel for over 45 years, and the theme park does not have this sort of beach facility. Additionally it has been only a matter of months since Disney opened bungalows on the water directly adjacent to the beach area of this hotel, and from which bungalows management has known the guests were feeding alligators and thus desensitizing them to humans.

Neither this waterfront resort nor the alligator feeding at the nearby bungalows have been going on for 45 years.

Now you can reach back into your bag of childish insults and "respond"

Old Crow

(2,212 posts)
135. Who cares when the hotel opened?
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:45 PM
Jun 2016

Why the lengthy rant about the hotel's opening date, for heaven's sake?

Looks like Mr. Grumpy's looking for someone to dance with.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
136. It's pretty simple
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:03 AM
Jun 2016

It seems to be often repeated in these threads that WDW has been around since 1971 and has had millions of visitors, as a point suggesting that those two facts demonstrate some sort of obvious safety of this beach area at this hotel.

Those two facts, dutifully trotted out in the post to which I was responded, are irrelevant to the circumstances of this beach at this hotel which (a) has not been around since 1971, (b) has not had millions of visitors and (c) is directly adjacent to a relatively new facility at which guests have been feeding alligators with the knowledge of management.

Put simply, the defensive argument that "it has been there since 1971 and has had millions of visitors" is both factually and legally irrelevant to the circumstances here.

It is also unfortunate that some people cannot have a discussion without juvenile personal characterizations.

apnu

(8,722 posts)
170. The bungalos are at the Polynesian Resort, not The Grand Floridian resort.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:03 PM
Jun 2016

The are on the same body of water, but not that close as you suggest. Its very possible that people feeding gators are a factor, also those bungalos have been only open for a year or less.

apnu

(8,722 posts)
173. I have been there. Stayed at the Poly, walked to the Grand for dinner.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:22 PM
Jun 2016

They are at least 1/2 mile from each other, plus the size of the Grand adds to the distance. The compund for that resort is huge. You post suggested they were close, its like a 20 minute walk at a brisk pace, from where the bungalos are and the beach where the attack occured. Arial shots do a very poor job of giving a sense of scale and distance.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
175. The alligators don't have to walk
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 08:06 PM
Jun 2016

Last edited Sat Jun 18, 2016, 08:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Alligators swim. They swim much faster than a brisk walk. They cruise the edge looking for prey. They have been conditioned by the guests at the bungalows to approach humans.

Using Google earth and the distance scale, it is about 2000 feet. Less than half a mile. It is a longer walk, but the alligators don't have to go around the rim of the lake.

At a relaxed alligator swim speed of 10mph that is three minutes.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
36. No, most of us do not agree. That's why in OTHER locales
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:00 AM
Jun 2016

there are signs that say "no swimming, no wading, and danger: alligators."

"No swimming" does not mean "don't even dip your toes in the water." In most non-alligator states, the issue is potential drowning and the lack of lifeguards. That's why they're posted for "no swimming." People from outside of Florida won't be accustomed to worrying about alligators in waterways -- particularly a man-made Disney lagoon.

But at least one report by officials yesterday said that the family wasn't in the water -- they were sitting on the beach. The alligator lunged out of the water and snatched the boy. And there are photographs showing that Disney chairs and tables are lined up just a few feet from the edge of the water. Clearly Disney wasn't taking the risk seriously.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
24. It's Florida.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:31 AM
Jun 2016

If you have water you have Alligators. Maybe there should have been a sign there because of the ignorance of visitors, but there are no signs almost everywhere.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
26. So, you think Disney was correct in not telling the Bora Bora guests not to feed the alligators?
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:37 AM
Jun 2016

Yes, it's Florida.

And Disney has known for months that guests have been feeding alligators at the new bungalows that opened next to the Grand Floridian.

And you don't see a problem there?
 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
27. I'm not familiar with that situation.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:42 AM
Jun 2016

Feeding Alligators is highly illegal and endangers the public.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
28. That's what was going on, management knew it, and didn't stop it
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:45 AM
Jun 2016

There have been so many "It's Florida, there are alligators" posts which completely ignore the reality of what was going on in this lake.

People don't go to Disney because it is in Florida. They go to Florida because that's where Disney is.

If Disney World was in Akron, Ohio, they'd be going there.
 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
32. I've mostly stayed away from this news item
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:56 AM
Jun 2016

and the OP didn't mentioned the feeding issue. Clearly feeding alligators creates a dangerous situation.

Beyond the feeding alligator situation, Disney, or anyone else in Florida, shouldn't be removing alligators from where they belong.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,272 posts)
47. Maybe they shouldn't have man-made lagoons where children belong.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:47 AM
Jun 2016

And have "beach nights" next to said lagoons.

Or maybe put up a man made fence around the man made lagoon.


This was on my Facebook feed:

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
169. When they send alligators to that beach, they aren't sending their best...
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:57 PM
Jun 2016

They're sending murderers, reptiles... and we need to shut that down until we know what's going on.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
147. This woman says she took pictures of her own son wading in the lake
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:08 AM
Jun 2016

Last edited Sun Jun 19, 2016, 03:48 AM - Edit history (1)

less than an hour before little Lane was taken by the alligator:

?4944759619385940435

Obviously the staff need to make it much clearer to visitors that there is a real danger of alligators grabbing little kids if they are close to the water or actually even in it, especially at night, during gator feeding hours. Instead, though, they obviously let tourists and their kids hang out near the water and even wade in it, without making clear what the dangers are. Naturally the tourists will assume that if it were not safe, they would be clearly warned about the nature of the dangers involved.

lostnfound

(16,138 posts)
128. Floridian here, and that's true, but Disneys whole purpose is to create safe place
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:37 PM
Jun 2016

For fantasy, centered around kids.

Lulls people into a false sense of security.

Some are saying kid wasn't even in the water.
But it bothers me that they went to the trouble of "No Swimming - Steep Dropoff". That was t the only problem. A parent out enjoying themselves is gonna read that and think "aha! Danger of drowning" and assume that is the only hazard that NEEDS to be on their mind.

liberal N proud

(60,300 posts)
37. So this guy let his kid go into the water, past the signs that said no swimming
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:00 AM
Jun 2016

and its "NOT his fault" :wft:

No Swimming sign would indicate - Don't go in the water! DUH!


Florida RULE 1 - If there is water, they most likely are alligators. It is where they live!



Let's kill all the alligators in Florida already, then you all will be happy.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
42. wading is not swimming.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:20 AM
Jun 2016

and no one is suggesting killing all the alligators in Florida. Certainly no one on DU has expressed any such thing.

liberal N proud

(60,300 posts)
58. Wading is in the water
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:15 PM
Jun 2016

Since the sign does not state why there is no swimming, I would think you don't want to touch the stuff.

Who knows what is in there.

Whiskeytide

(4,459 posts)
66. Umm.... Disney knew.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:17 PM
Jun 2016

We're hearing a lot now (from the famously reliable internet) that Disney was certainly on notice of a potential problem:
- new bungalows at the water's edge
- employees concerned over guests feeding the gators
- past removal of alligators in the lagoon
- a report of a near incident weeks ago
- a continued policy of holding beach events at feeding time

But even without such facts, Disney SHOULD have known and taken steps to address the problem. If it is simply common sense for ANYONE to know and take precautions around water in Florida, then shouldn't Disney be held to that same standard? And the standard is "reasonable precautions" - no one says they have to be perfect. Just reasonable. But if they are going to invite every toddler in the world to come vacation at their paradise, they damn well should take reasonable steps to make sure its safe for those toddlers to toddle around.

So, to me, the question is "Why didn't Disney place signs warning of the alligators in the lagoon"? There has to have been a decision made by someone, somewhere that it wasn't something they wanted or felt they needed to do. If Disney has a reasonable answer to that question, then that is their defense. If not, they're in a pickle.

A "No Swimming" sign might tell some people to stay out of the water altogether. But isn't it also reasonable to take such a sign literally as don't "swim". Standing in 5-10 inches of water isn't really swimming. Standing on the sand right at the water's edge isn't really swimming. And just because YOU would take such a sign as "OMG, WHATEVER you do - STAY AWAY - FAR, FAR AWAY - from this highly dangerous H2O - We're NOT KIDDING!, Damn it. Stay BACK!!! BACK I say!", can't you appreciate the fact that not everyone would be expected take it that way?

When a Nebraskan sees a "No Swimming" sign, maybe they think that there is a drowning risk. Maybe they think the water has chemicals in it. Maybe the floor has sharp stones, or there is an undertow. I don't necessarily expect someone who has not grown up around gators to think there is a risk of being eaten. I certainly wouldn't expect that to be their first thought.

And, for Carl's sake, DON'T kill all the gators (or the gophers, for that matter). They are just being themselves.

But DO hold Disney accountable for not taking reasonable steps to protect its invitees on the premises.

PJMcK

(21,916 posts)
60. I always thought "No Swimming" meant stay out of the water
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:30 PM
Jun 2016

I've seen signs like that in parks, at beaches and at swimming pools when they're closed and it's always meant do not go in the water.

Regardless, this tragedy will undoubtably cause big changes at Disney World. The Disney Corporation is extremely careful about their public image and they won't let this story fester because it will negatively impact their business. Not to be cynical but I can even see them try to find a positive way out of this. For example, they might make a big to-do about their new safety features and add it to their marketing of the theme parks

Right now, I'm sure they've already taken action to close off the ponds and other safety steps. They're probably in constant touch with the family and will try to do everything they can to assist them. No doubt there will be a huge financial settlement and perhaps other compensations. Having worked with a part of that corporation, that's how they roll. In another post, I commented that it's likely that Disney's liability insurance policies were followed to the letter. Those policies and responsibilities will probably be changed. Further, the state of Florida may pass more safety regulations for theme parks.

But one aspect of this story bugs me. With all due respect for the family, and my comment here is meant in the most general terms, there seems to be a lack of common sense or perhaps education and understanding about dangerous animals. One CANNOT go near them. Whether it's alligators, apes, lions, snakes or even unknown dogs, I don't understand why people don't treat them with the greatest care and respect. I know that Disney World is supposed to be magical but they built it in the wilderness, for cryin' out loud! Even birds can be dangerous: when our dog was a puppy, an eagle almost swooped him up. I've seen large geese and swans attack golfers if they are too close to their offspring. Animals can be lethal.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,272 posts)
52. It was a "beach"
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:00 PM
Jun 2016

I grew up near Chicago wading in and "dangling toes" in water where swimming was prohibited. My dad used to say "let's go downtown and dangle our toes"


A man made lagoon with a sand beach is an invitation to wade and play in the water.

Besides, the latest reports I saw was the kid wasn't in the water. He was snatched off the sand after a "beach night" event.

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
55. You've been staunchly defending Disney, I don't get it.....
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:10 PM
Jun 2016
If anyone should be defending Disney, it should be ME. They have been in my community for 45 years, and provided jobs and entertainment to millions. My area was transformed from a sleepy southern backwater by Disney, for which I'm grateful.

However.....they fucked up. We will never agree. I don't get why you and others defend them so staunchly. F****K Disney. They were cold-blooded and baked the value of a little boy's life into their profit calculations, and now a little boy is dead.

FUCK DISNEY. They need to be raked over the coals publicly, their internal decision making exposed, and made to pay and take all the proper precautions.

liberal N proud

(60,300 posts)
59. Parents need to be responsible for their children
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:19 PM
Jun 2016

Just like the gorilla incident in the Zoo. The gorilla and the zoo were blamed because a mother let her kid climb past the barrier.

Here the parents let their kid go in the water past the signs that say no swimming. And they did it at dusk when gators feed during mating season.

Disney isn't there to babysit your kids, unless you pay for their service. Had they been in a Disney babysitter care, this would not have happened, the sitter would not have allowed the kid near the water.

mentalsolstice

(4,454 posts)
71. Haven't you read any of the posts above.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:39 PM
Jun 2016

Some say the child wasn't even in the water! I grew up in southern FL, and I know for a fact that alligators will lunge out of the water to capture their prey. There are pictures posted above showing beach chairs near the water, and children playing in the sand. A motivated gator can and will make a quick lunge...especially if it has been encouraged by prior feedings from guests. Your defense of Disney is sickening...at least until all the relevant facts are known.

mentalsolstice

(4,454 posts)
94. I have heard that witnesses....
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:15 PM
Jun 2016

Have said that the child wasn't in the water. You seem to want split hairs without having all of the facts. My point is that it really doesn't matter. There are chairs close enough to the waters edge to imply that it is a safe area. I lived most of my childhood in neighborhoods with canals. I've seen gators lunge onto land at lightening speed and take off back into the water just as fast.

Look at the picture posted above. It's conceivable that one of those children could be attacked. Other pictures have been posted that show beach chairs provided by Disney situated just a few feet from the water, which to me implies it's a safe area to walk, sit, and play in the sand. If you were to ask me, any kind of signage would not be enough, actual barriers between the beach area and the water should be erected. Unless this father was actually dangling his son in front of a sighted alligator, he is not responsible for what happened. I would speculate that even Floridians who have a knowledge about gators could let their guard down with a set up like this. After all it's Disney, the happiest place on earth!

d_legendary1

(2,586 posts)
72. There were no "watch for gator" signs for at the park
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:47 PM
Jun 2016

Unlike the gorilla pit which clearly had signs marked all over the place Disney did not provide warnings that dangerous wild life inhabits its waters, nor did it take precautions like the zoo did in enacting barriers to separate the guests from the beasts. That kind of negligence is known as strict liability and whether you like it or not they will be held responsible for that kid's death. A no swimming sign is usually there to prevent lawsuits from someone drowning in their lake, not from an animal that drags its victims into a lake.

Blaming the parents for an animal attack INSIDE A HOTEL RESORT is just plain heartless.

kcr

(15,300 posts)
129. You mean like the parents of this boy who was't even in the water?
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:43 PM
Jun 2016

So what exactly did they do that was so irresponsible? Are you choosing to completely ignore the reports that he wasn't even in the water at all? It's been mentioned several times in this thread and I know it's been reported since the story broke.

Corporate666

(587 posts)
109. Sounds like you know a lot
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:04 PM
Jun 2016

about something know nothing about.

Yeah, the figured alligators eating kids into their profit calculations because it happens.... oh.... NEVER before.

And "made to take all the proper precautions" - in other words, you think no expense should be spared to save people from either one-in-a-billion events that they themselves put themselves into, and/or you want no expense spared in making sure nothing can ever go wrong.

It's life. Getting eaten by an alligator is such an infinitesimally remote possibility that the response here is off into looney-land.

Where can I find the thread with all the DU'ers banding together to ban alcohol due to the tens of thousands of people who die from it every year through liver disease, car accidents, slip-and-fall and such?

I'm sure that thread must be right on the front page somewhere, with all the same shocked-and-appalled-about-Disney people posting feverishly about how to stop the slaughter. Can't seem to find that thread though.

Things that make you go "hmmmm....."

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
110. Proper signs = a few thousand dollars
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:07 PM
Jun 2016

Staff telling people not to feed gators: Not that pricey, included in their salaries

Literature handed out telling people to stay 20 feet away from all bodies of water: Not that expensive


I'd say what I think of you, but I'd get a hide. Good day.

Corporate666

(587 posts)
113. Sounds like your wealth of inexperience is even greater previously demonstrated
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:20 PM
Jun 2016

Now you have knowledge of what the staff doesn't say to guests also? Must be nice to know everything about a situation just by reading a single, biased article.

I guess the stories on Reddit of people who were staying at the SAME hotel in the SAME week as this kid were killed were lying when they said they were wanted daily to beware the alligators. But hey, why worry about pesky things like first hand accounts when we have a news story from a lawyer that's not corroborated by anything - yeah, let's get Disney, those bastards! They just got lucky billions of times - I'm sure alligators were inches away from mauling hundreds of children - and Disney just got lucky. They probably don't even have a security staff or any wildlife people on payroll at all - those utter bastards!

I am having a good day, thank you. Life is good when I don't spend it freaking out about impossibly improbable events and corporations need to protect me from those events.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
148. Ford figured likely deaths into its financial calculations when they decided not
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:17 AM
Jun 2016

to fix the design flaw in the Pinto. They ended up being held liable for the deaths that caused.

Big corporations often do make such cold cost-benefit analyses that include possible deaths from choosing the path that they think will be less likely to harm their bottom line.

1monster

(11,012 posts)
38. When I was child in the '60s, alligators were considered an endangered species...
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:04 AM
Jun 2016

When I moved to Florida in the '70s, it was a local news worthy event when a gator showed up in someone's yard. A gator in the pond was a selling point for some apartment complexes. By the '90s, there were so many gator incidents (gators in pools, gators grabbing a dog or cat, gator under the porch, etc.) in residential areas that I thought, perhaps, just maybe, we'd gone overboard on protecting and restoring these animals... they seem to reproduce like rabbits.

Now the only time they make the news is when a giant gator strolls across a golf course, or a humogous one (27 feet long) is spotted swimming along the water way carrying a full-sized deer, or a smaller (five and a half feet) gator politely and law abidingly uses the cross walk, or when someone is greviously injured or killed.

This is Florida folks. Assume that any fresh water or brachish water has its resident reptiles including gators, Eastern Diamondback rattlesnakes, pygmy rattlesnakes, water moccasins and other dangerous wild life that are real, not Disneyesque animatroics. And they think they have a perfect right to live and hunt in their native lands.

On edit: I find it incredible that people are stupid enough to feed alligators... Would they go dump chum in the ocean and then go swimming? BTW, you would not believe how many sharks swim the waters just off the beaches.

bullsnarfle

(254 posts)
56. Amen.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:11 PM
Jun 2016

As one FLA resident to another, I get sick & tired of tourist stupidity. Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together knows that you should never feed any dangerous wild animal. If the asshats went to Alaska on vacation I guess they would be feeding the grizzly bears.

I am also tired of the whining about "gee, how are tourists supposed to know there are alligators in FLA?".
Jeezus wept.
Look, I have never been to India, but I sure as hell know better than to go wading in the Ganges.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
149. That is a straw man. The argument being made is NOT that the tourists don't know that
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:29 AM
Jun 2016

there are gators in Florida, but that they assumed that an expensive Disney World resort marketed to families, complete with a serene manmade lake and a white sand beach running right up to the water's edge would be a safe place for their kids to play on the beach, especially since the resort invited families to spend the evening ON THE BEACH watching kids' moves, during gator feeding hours.

Most non-Floridians don't realize that gators can and do get into every bit of water, including backyard pools and drainage ditches, or that there is no way for Disney to actually keep them out of the manmade lakes at their resorts. For example, I knew about gators in backyard pools, and my son, who took his master's at Florida University, told me about the gators in the lake on campus, but I still had no idea that there would be gators in the manmade lake at an expensive Disney resort. (I even lived in Florida from 1958 to 1962).

By making such an inviting white sand beach running all the way to the water's edge, placing bench swings and beach chairs right near the water, and encouraging families and little kids to come to the beach at night to watch movies and play, the resort was clearly implying that it would be safe to do so. Furthermore, all the pictures I have seen of many kids playing near the water or wading near the edge suggests that the staff was not making any real effort to stop parents from letting their kids do that.

ON EDIT: This picture is from the Polynesian Resort, where an alligator came up out of the water after the kids in a British family a few weeks ago. Notice how close the beach chairs are to the water's edge. The few pics of such chairs I have seen for the Grand Floridian also have beach chairs and bench swings close to the water:



Oh, and as this map shows, the two resorts are quite close to each other, on the same lake:

 

peace13

(11,076 posts)
63. Funny that you bring up chump.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:34 PM
Jun 2016

My friend swam for a FL college and one day, while the women were training at the beach, chump was dumped from the pier. She said the coaches went on a total freak out. Some people just have no respect for nature or human life!

Amaril

(1,267 posts)
91. Actually, there are several companies
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:43 PM
Jun 2016

.....that run shark encounter tours in the Keys, and they do chum (or use a "scent" as some call it -- the only scent I'm aware of that will attract a shark is blood) the water to draw sharks in. These are "viewing only" tours -- no swimming with the sharks -- but it is an incredibly bad idea, IMHO, because what they're doing is desensitizing sharks to human contact, and the sharks begin to associate boats + people = potential food source.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
79. I have golfed at that course many times.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:07 PM
Jun 2016

They have great respect for the gators there and try to just leave them alone. Absolute monster gators all over that course.

On a side note it is one of the best links style courses you will find in the area. Really cool and reminds you of courses you see in Scotland.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
49. Alligators don't make good pets.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:53 AM
Jun 2016

I know that attacks on humans are rare, but that doesn't mean you can trust them.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
151. We had a pet cayman when I was a girl. His name was George, and he reached 2 feet before he died:
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:33 AM
Jun 2016

pettales.homestead.com/george.html

(We called him an alligator, but we knew he really was a cayman. It just seemed easier not to get technical about the name.)

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
152. Here is a story from one of my websites about a young man
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:36 AM
Jun 2016

Last edited Sun Jun 19, 2016, 04:36 PM - Edit history (1)

who was charged by a 6-footer while peeing behind a tree in the Everglades:

http://pettales.homestead.com/alligatorencounter.html

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
51. Disney F******D up, it's as clear as the nose on my face
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:59 AM
Jun 2016

There is NO humane and logical argument against this. They simply got lucky for 45 years, and the luck finally ran out. Time for Disney to pay the piper, meaning a gigantic settlement with the parents, banning all feeding of gators by all reasonable means, signs everywhere, and explicitly informing guests somehow to stay the F****K away from fresh water.

This is going to hurt Disney, which is my area's largest employer, but SORRY, HUMAN LIFE COMES BEFORE CORPORATE PROFITS.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
53. Not quite so fast.. I want to know the corporate decision processes that went into this
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:05 PM
Jun 2016

I think this is a Ford Pinto exploding gas tank situation, warning the guests about gators would scare some of them off and cost corporate profits.

The bungalows that people were feeding gators from are $2,000 a night, Disney isn't going to tell anyone that can pay that kind of money that they might be in danger if they think they can get away with it.

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
54. Actually you are correct, I think this was a conscious decision by Disney to NOT scare the guests...
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:07 PM
Jun 2016

They calculated the value of a human life, baked it into all the financial calculations and voila, a child dies.

Time for Disney to get reamed publicly like Ford was, and pay the piper.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
60. So many alligators in that area. Big ones, too.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:30 PM
Jun 2016

Overall, they are correct, gators don't attack people often.

1) Gators are often more of a threat at places like this, not less of a threat. No matter how hard they try to monitor it people vacationing will feed the gators. They become use to people feeding them. When they get use to it and see someone walking up to the water they swim over looking for their treat. That means at best you now have a gator next to someone with food on its mind. Worst, they take a bite.

2) A large portion of a gators food in Florida comes from picking small animals off the bank while they are drinking water or eating. It is the perfect scene. We have all seen how a large gator can lay in wait in shallow water near the bank. Those who are either short like a child or kneeling over look just like their food source on the bank.

3) For the most part, March, April, May and June are gator mating season. It fluctuates a little dependent on how we come out of the winter and other factors. They can get extremely nasty during these months. We cannot expect our out of state friends to know this. You have seen little as nasty as an alligator during the height of mating season. Most Floridians immediately recognize the "grunt" noise they make during this time. It is a sure sign to stay away.

Disney seems to need to get their head out of their ass on this one. These lakes should be clearly marked. That need is elevated considering one of their goals is to bring consumers in from out of state. I deal with a lot of people from up north who have never spent time in the south and they are, for the most part, completely uneducated about alligators. Makes sense. Disney has a responsibility to protect them within reason. Proper signage is clearly within reason.

I have swam in plenty of lakes with large populations of alligators. I have often positioned myself to get very close camera shots of large gators. I find them to be beautiful. I would never do any of those things during this time of year. The people there should be given warning. So many we attract to the Kissimmee area are not from Florida.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
76. Dusk, dawn, and night are big feeding times.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:59 PM
Jun 2016

Dusk and dawn are when many animals are by the side drinking. They are either just finishing or just starting their day. Then there are the nocturnal animals at night. Gators are often somewhat still during the day using the heat to build energy. They then use the darkness to help them hunt at night.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
81. I use to do a lot of bass fishing in lakes around my area at night.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:16 PM
Jun 2016

It was always in the back of my mind. It really wasn't that dangerous outside of mating season. There are still things you just don't do. A child should never be near the bank at night. Most full grown adults are ok when standing near the bank. You also don't kneel down to retie a lure or anything similar. It puts you in the position of looking small. Two adults were killed by gators within a month a couple of years ago. Crack pipes were on the bank where they were taken. Kneeling down near the bank smoking. It's a bad move to kneel down near the bank of freshwater in Florida.

Again, there are few safe places during mating season.

That is a good sign though I would argue the phrase "At Dusk" should be removed. Sure is better than a simple no swimming sign.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
68. They're animals. They're wild. They go wherever the fuck they want.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:26 PM
Jun 2016

If you relocate them they'll come back. If you kill them more will move in. It's water in Florida. There are gators in it.

Sometimes things happen and they're not anybody's fault.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
73. Um. bullshit. All Disney had to do was post "no swimming- alligators"
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:50 PM
Jun 2016

Disney didn't take that simple step. I wager that parents would be a lot more careful had those signs been posted.

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
75. exactly
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:56 PM
Jun 2016

I know, had I been with my small son years ago, I would have stayed WAYYY away from the water. Disney messed up, hugely. They didn't want to scare the guests, because of lower profits.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
105. The sign said no swimming.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:47 PM
Jun 2016

It's Florida. You don't have to be a local to know what that means, you just have to be able to fog a mirror.

mentalsolstice

(4,454 posts)
117. Unfortunately, this child didn't even have to in the water to be at risk.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:33 PM
Jun 2016

Gators will lunge out of water several feet for easy prey. See the pictures above of the children playing in the sand. At the right time of day, or season, it's foreseeable they could be attacked. Any first year law student can tell you that it should have been reasonably foreseeable to Disney that an attack such as this could occur. And you take your plaintiff as you find them....so a family with no knowledge of gator behavior at waters edge.

MrScorpio

(73,626 posts)
69. I grew up watching "Wild Kingdom..."
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:28 PM
Jun 2016

If someone had said that to me what the manager had said, I'd know that he or she was either crazy, ignorant or both.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,272 posts)
78. Maybe she watched and only paid attention to Marlin Perkins.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:07 PM
Jun 2016

He was always safe in the studio while poor Jim was getting chased up a fucking tree.

Butterbean

(1,014 posts)
84. By hosting "beach parties" by this particular body of water, and having benches present
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:24 PM
Jun 2016

Disney gave the image of false security and safety. Why would Disney host a beach party by a body of water that was dangerous, after all? That is the conclusion I would think most people would come to, myself included.

Yes, alligators are dangerous animals, and yes, they are ubiquitous in Florida, but I confess that even though I *know* such facts, my brain may have disconnected somehow inside the "Disney bubble" and thought the way a lot of people tend to think: bad things like alligators don't happen at Disney. Yes, it's a pipe dream and ignorant and call it what you will, but it's how a lot of people think, and Disney is absolutely one of the experts at lulling people into a sense of security and being in "another world" where everything is safe, perfect, and magical. It's easy to forget the dangers.

Even living where I do in the south, my spouse, born and raised here, didn't know the true dangers of alligator snapping turtles and was about to try to pick one up and move it before I intervened and told him not to touch the animal, lest he lose a finger (or hand, or wrist....). I see people on the beaches all the time letting their children dig deep sand pits unsupervised without a care in the world. I see people trying to "thaw" their windshields by pouring warm or hot water on them in the winter. The point here is, not everybody knows everything about everything. Some knowledge is regional, even with the advent of google and the internet, and some people simply do. not. know. about the dangers around them without giant warning signs and captain obvious yelling and pointing them out.

This is even more true in the Disney bubble. Regardless of who is at fault here, at the end of the day, a 2 year old child suffered a horrific death, and his father witnessed his demise. His parents have to go home with their 4 year old daughter and try to continue on with their life and marriage in the wake of everything that's happened, with the death of their child being in the very public eye. That, IMO, is what is most horrifying about this whole story.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
154. Not just a beach party, but BEACH NIGHT! Night time showings of kid movies
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:53 AM
Jun 2016

to encourage families to bring their kids down to the beach at night.

The blue circle in this pic shows where the screen was placed for the movies:

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
90. article from Omaha Nebraska newspaper about the stricken family
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:41 PM
Jun 2016
http://www.omaha.com/news/nebraska/autopsy-nebraska-boy-killed-in-gator-attack-died-of-drowning/article_057df03a-32ba-11e6-b9b4-bb2a9829631b.html

The Graves family issued a statement Thursday afternoon to ABC News: “Words cannot describe the shock and grief our family is experiencing over the loss of our son. To all of the local authorities and staff who worked tirelessly these past 24 hours, we express our deepest gratitude.”

snip


Nearby, in the Ranch View Estates neighborhood where the family resides, blue ribbons adorned trees and yards to show support.

Neighbors will sell lemonade and cookies Friday to raise money for a memorial. “Lemonade for Lane” will be from noon until 5 p.m. at Elkhorn Valley View Middle School, 1313 S. 208th St. It originally had been planned for the entrance of the neighborhood near 214th and Pacific Streets.

A Mississippi woman who also asked for prayers for the Graves family posted photos on Facebook of her young son, who she said was wading in the same spot of the lagoon less than an hour before Tuesday’s attack.

“It’s a tiny beach, surrounded by pools, water slides, a restaurant and a fire pit,” Jennifer Venditti wrote. “I can’t conceive that an alligator would be in such a busy, small space.”

Ace Rothstein

(3,104 posts)
96. I've seen the gators at Coronado Springs before.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:22 PM
Jun 2016

Last edited Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:47 PM - Edit history (1)

They were always near the bridges. I'm assuming people drop food to them.

Even though there are "beaches" at these lakes/lagoons at Disney, I'm shocked how many people let their kids go in them. The water is disgusting and there are pools and splash pads at every hotel.

Chemisse

(30,793 posts)
103. They are going to be sued - and they should be.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:43 PM
Jun 2016

Clearly they knew children were wading - or even swimming - in a lagoon that had alligators in it. A 'no swimming' sign does NOT cover their ass.

They act as though it is a fluke and they didn't know there was an alligator in the water. And then they go looking for the culprit - and kill SEVEN alligators in the lagoon!!

It's inexcusable and they deserve to be sued.

proverbialwisdom

(4,959 posts)
104. More.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:45 PM
Jun 2016


CBS This Morning: A closer look at alligators' true threat to people
Published on Jun 16, 2016


After a 2-year-old boy was killed by an alligator at a Disney World resort, we are taking a closer look at the powerful and deadly animals. Omar Villafranca spoke with experts at an east Texas alligator ranch to find out why some are migrating from swamps to the city.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/disney-world-alligator-attack-lethal-powers-of-gators-and-what-prompts-them-to-kill/


http://nypost.com/2016/06/17/disney-ignored-gator-problem-to-keep-high-end-guests-happy-report/

Rich guests were in charge of Disney’s gator policy

By Joe Tacopino
June 17, 2016


Disney World was warned about the alligator problem in its Seven Seas Lagoon but looked the other way because high-paying guests enjoyed feeding the creatures, a report has claimed.

Management had been warned by park staff that guests at the $2,000-a-night waterfront Bora Bora Bungalows were feeding the alligators, but ignored requests to build protective fences, a park insider said, according to TheWrap.

“Disney has known about the problem of guests feeding the alligators well prior to the opening of the bungalows,” the insider told the news site.

“With the opening of the bungalows, it brought the guests that much closer to wildlife. Or, the wildlife that much closer to the guests.”

<>

Also on Thursday, videos emerged on YouTube showing gators at Disney World, some just feet from parkgoers.

http://nypost.com/2016/06/16/disney-world-is-crawling-with-alliggators-see-for-yourself/

BadGimp

(4,009 posts)
121. I held a trade show there in 2009, and we were warned late one night about the gators.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:10 PM
Jun 2016

One night a bunch of event attendees made their way down to that exact "beach". Security quickly showed up and warned us that there were alligators in the water and that it was not safe. They did not have to say it twice.

The park management has known for years they had a problem. It was only a matter of time before someone was going to be attacked.

Barack_America

(28,876 posts)
133. You tell a parent there's gators in that water and kids WON'T be in it.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:47 PM
Jun 2016

Plain and simple.

Disney knew of the danger and failed to act. Gross negligence.

My family is going in August, different resort but one with a "beach"; my kids will know to expect an epic spanking if they put a toe in that sand, let alone that water. And I don't spank.

I am not Florida naive, but I never even thought of alligators at Disney before. You get lulled into thinking it's a completely controlled environment. I never let my kids in the water because of the amoeba.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
144. The whole reason people go to Disney instead of a state park or national forest
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:28 AM
Jun 2016

with their children is because it's supposed to be a safe, controlled environment, where all the risks are just pretend.

I'd have never dreamed that they could be inviting people down to the shore for "Beach night," and that they would have lounge chairs and tables a few feet from their man-made lagoon -- and that that lagoon might contain real, live, alligators.

Jubilant18

(62 posts)
132. I was at DW last December
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:42 PM
Jun 2016

at Port Orleans Riverside and there was water all around because the theme is a riverboat port and dock. Our room even had a fold-down bed which had a painting of an alligator on it when it was folded up.

There were NO signs about alligators ( although there were no places that I saw where guests could go up to the water.). Still, there were places where a gator could have crawled out of the water and been near guests.

Amazingly, I read a guide book about DW and Orlando and there were NO mentions of the dangers of alligators. We naively walked around the river area early in the morning and late at night and never once thought about alligators. No employee ever mentioned it either and there were no signs. Our room had brochures about various entertainment possibilities but nothing about gators.

I don't think it is right to blame tourists from other parts of the country who have never been to Florida and who were given no information about the local habitat. You can still have a good time while taking realistic precautions.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
157. + a brazillion. I am appalled by the posts sneering at the "stupidity" of out of staters
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:05 AM
Jun 2016

for not realizing that any body of fresh (or even brackish) water in Florida will inevitably have gators, or that "No Swimming" implies the risk of a gator attack. Who would even think of that unless they were from Florida?

McCamy Taylor

(19,240 posts)
139. No one is lawyered up like the Mouse.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:17 AM
Jun 2016

The family won't be able to find an attorney in the state that is not already a client.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
158. With all this publicity they won't need to. Disney will offer a large settlement up front--
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:06 AM
Jun 2016

with a gag clause, of course.

Citrus

(88 posts)
160. Gators, Florida. Common Sense
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 04:45 AM
Jun 2016

- They climb, they don't crawl. They can also climb a lot of walls ("fence" walls). (Btw, gators walk, they don't crawl.) They'll climb fences to get into backyard pools.

- Gators are shockingly fast on land for 20-30 feet. You cannot outrun a gator if you're within 30-50 feet of it.

- Gators are in nearly every body of water in this state.

- Gators are silent swimmers. They also blend in with our blackwater rivers and lakes and often can't be seen.

- It's illegal to feed them, but idiots do...and sometimes lose their lives because of it.

- NASA has gator-proof fencing around certain areas. It's high and curves outward toward the top. (You can Google something like NASA gator fencing and find pictures.)

- This is mating and nesting season, making gators restless and more hungry.

- Gators are treated like curiosities and commodities here, making humans forget how dangerous they can be in the wild. Even miniature golf courses often have captive baby gators that people can pay to feed from a bamboo pole. These babies come from a variety of captive-gator facilities that need to get rid of their "excess". The shows and displays of gators, "gator wrestling", and other so-called demonstrations are, in fact, cruel and add to the objectification of gators rather than promoting respect.

- Gators aside, no small child should be allowed to be in any water without an adult holding his/her hand. This is simple water safety and common sense. A "No Swimming" sign seems to mean different things to different people. I wouldn't let my child put so much as a toe in water that had a sign forbidding swimming, but I don't think it's completely unreasonable for someone to assume it's the water itself that is unhealthy (bacteria, amoeba, etc.) and that wading is okay.

- Disney has always known about the gators. That manmade "lake" is connected to natural waterways.

- Gators can and do travel great distances and males are territorial, so they're on the move to create their own territories. As their habitat shrinks, the "problem" of gators increases and so we have licensed trappers and hunters because they've bounced back very well from their endangered status.

- The gator is not at fault. That kind of thinking is bizarre.

- There are millions of gators in Florida alone. (They're all over the southeast US.)

- It would be impossible for Disney to kill all the gators on the thousands of acres that comprise their Florida property. (Removing them is a preposterous notion.)

- Disney should've had warning signs up long ago. And by "long ago", I mean from the day they opened in 1971.

- Gators have proliferated dramatically in the last 10 years or so. The reasons are complex and many. I swam in lakes with gators in them when I was a child, but they stayed away from us. We had no fear, but we had respect. They don't like us any more than we like them. But I wouldn't put my toe in any fresh water or brackish water now, except for our many springs. They are losing habitat at a rate that is dangerous to them as well as the environment in general. When wild animals lose habitat, they start to panic. (Wouldn't you?)

- Please don't come to Florida and feed gators, pick sea oats, or throw your trash on our roads and beaches. And do not mess with our manatees in any way! If you come here, don't check your common sense at the state line. Educate yourself a little bit about what you'll find here and treat our home the way you'd want us to treat your home. Seriously...disengage from your phones, tablets, etc., and be present. Reasonable diligence will let you enjoy your visit safely and respectfully. Oh, and yes, we have lots and lots of sharks, too. And snakes and venomous spiders. Our Florida Black Bear is generally timid and shy unless startled or it's a mother with cubs. They, too, are running out of habitat and are seen more frequently in populated areas these days.

- And watch your children! This may be "paradise" but bad shit happens.

(For the record, I oppose hunting and captivity. I'm just stating facts.)

 

Jester Messiah

(4,711 posts)
166. Yeah, see, the world is full of animals, they live here too.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:26 AM
Jun 2016

The world is not child-safe. If your kid wants to go swimming take him to the pool.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
172. you see, this is Disney World. They didn't even post signs warning not to feed
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:16 PM
Jun 2016

the alligators. This isn't the everglades or Ding Darling.

 

Jester Messiah

(4,711 posts)
174. I don't think the animals who have lived there for millenia got the memo.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:30 PM
Jun 2016

People maybe ought to look after their kids a bit better, just in case.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
186. Maybe Disney shouldn't have been threatening to confiscate cameras
Mon Jun 20, 2016, 02:51 AM
Jun 2016

when guests tried to take photos of alligators on their property.

Then the alligators might have been publicized before a toddler was killed, not after.

Here are photos showing how innocuous this man-made "lagoon" would have looked to a family from Nebraska.

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/mom-shares-pics-of-son-playing-where-gator-later-killed-lane-graves-w210462

And this links to the report that Disney has been preventing its guests from taking photos of the intruding alligators.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027933796

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
185. If you want your child to be safe vacationing, Disney resorts have always been
Mon Jun 20, 2016, 02:47 AM
Jun 2016

promoted as a safe place to do that -- safer, for example, than camping at a state park or national forest.

Now it turns out that may not be true; because at least the state parks post signs warning of the dangers. Disney's been covering them up.

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