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Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:50 AM

 

Last year, this man specifically warned Disney about alligators after his son

was wading in a lagoon and he saw an alligator heading for the boy.


In April of 2015, San Diego lawyer David Hiden took his family to the theme park. His five-year-old son waded calf-deep into a lagoon behind their hotel.

"I saw something rapidly coming on like a submarine," Hiden told CBS News. "And I look and I went, 'Oh my god. That's an alligator.' And it was probably about six to seven feet."

Hiden grabbed his son to safety -- and spotted a second alligator lurking nearby.

The family was staying at Disney World's Coronado Springs Resort, which is three-and-a-half miles from the Grand Floridian Resort and Spa, where two year-old Lane was killed.

But a year earlier, Hiden says he warned a hotel manager, and even showed her a photo he took of one of the gators.

"And the response, I couldn't believe it," Hiden said. "It was, 'Those are resident pets, and we've known about them for years. And they're harmless, they're not going to attack anybody."

<snip>

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/lane-graves-disney-warned-about-alligator-attacks-before-boys-death/

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Reply Last year, this man specifically warned Disney about alligators after his son (Original post)
cali Jun 2016 OP
In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #1
cali Jun 2016 #2
Nye Bevan Jun 2016 #4
KittyWampus Jun 2016 #12
Ilsa Jun 2016 #33
pangaia Jun 2016 #40
Ilsa Jun 2016 #64
pangaia Jun 2016 #93
leftieNanner Jun 2016 #119
tblue37 Jun 2016 #142
A HERETIC I AM Jun 2016 #179
leftieNanner Jun 2016 #180
tblue37 Jun 2016 #141
AngryAmish Jun 2016 #125
bvar22 Jun 2016 #114
Ilsa Jun 2016 #116
McKim Jun 2016 #120
laundry_queen Jun 2016 #122
Bluestar Jun 2016 #127
tk2kewl Jun 2016 #13
Baitball Blogger Jun 2016 #21
In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #6
Baitball Blogger Jun 2016 #20
dflprincess Jun 2016 #134
Agschmid Jun 2016 #137
tblue37 Jun 2016 #143
Agschmid Jun 2016 #167
PoliticAverse Jun 2016 #3
In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #5
PoliticAverse Jun 2016 #9
forgotmylogin Jun 2016 #7
In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #8
Agschmid Jun 2016 #138
In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #161
cannabis_flower Jun 2016 #22
WatchWhatISay Jun 2016 #39
pangaia Jun 2016 #41
forgotmylogin Jun 2016 #67
passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #124
Corporate666 Jun 2016 #98
laundry_queen Jun 2016 #123
magical thyme Jun 2016 #164
KittyWampus Jun 2016 #10
cali Jun 2016 #19
pnwmom Jun 2016 #29
tblue37 Jun 2016 #145
woodsprite Jun 2016 #11
KittyWampus Jun 2016 #14
woodsprite Jun 2016 #15
Baclava Jun 2016 #50
Else You Are Mad Jun 2016 #80
Baclava Jun 2016 #82
Else You Are Mad Jun 2016 #83
Aerows Jun 2016 #176
brett_jv Jun 2016 #181
Else You Are Mad Jun 2016 #184
pnwmom Jun 2016 #31
JonathanRackham Jun 2016 #16
Sweet Freedom Jun 2016 #17
LS_Editor Jun 2016 #35
JonathanRackham Jun 2016 #44
Throd Jun 2016 #62
disillusioned73 Jun 2016 #18
truebluegreen Jun 2016 #30
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Corporate666 Jun 2016 #108
truebluegreen Jun 2016 #118
Mariana Jun 2016 #140
magical thyme Jun 2016 #165
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pnwmom Jun 2016 #36
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tblue37 Jun 2016 #146
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lostnfound Jun 2016 #128
liberal N proud Jun 2016 #37
cali Jun 2016 #42
liberal N proud Jun 2016 #58
Whiskeytide Jun 2016 #66
PJMcK Jun 2016 #60
melman Jun 2016 #85
Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2016 #52
steve2470 Jun 2016 #55
liberal N proud Jun 2016 #59
mentalsolstice Jun 2016 #71
liberal N proud Jun 2016 #87
mentalsolstice Jun 2016 #94
maddiemom Jun 2016 #131
d_legendary1 Jun 2016 #72
kcr Jun 2016 #129
Corporate666 Jun 2016 #109
steve2470 Jun 2016 #110
Corporate666 Jun 2016 #113
tblue37 Jun 2016 #148
1monster Jun 2016 #38
bullsnarfle Jun 2016 #56
liberal N proud Jun 2016 #57
tblue37 Jun 2016 #149
peace13 Jun 2016 #63
Amaril Jun 2016 #91
Liberalagogo Jun 2016 #43
Brother Buzz Jun 2016 #45
In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #106
NCTraveler Jun 2016 #79
TheBlackAdder Jun 2016 #46
tblue37 Jun 2016 #150
Omaha Steve Jun 2016 #48
NaturalHigh Jun 2016 #49
tblue37 Jun 2016 #151
tblue37 Jun 2016 #152
steve2470 Jun 2016 #51
Fumesucker Jun 2016 #53
steve2470 Jun 2016 #54
tblue37 Jun 2016 #153
NCTraveler Jun 2016 #60
Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2016 #74
NCTraveler Jun 2016 #76
Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2016 #77
NCTraveler Jun 2016 #81
In_The_Wind Jun 2016 #107
LeftyMom Jun 2016 #68
cali Jun 2016 #73
steve2470 Jun 2016 #75
LeftyMom Jun 2016 #105
mentalsolstice Jun 2016 #117
MrScorpio Jun 2016 #69
Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2016 #78
Butterbean Jun 2016 #84
steve2470 Jun 2016 #86
Butterbean Jun 2016 #88
cali Jun 2016 #89
Butterbean Jun 2016 #92
gademocrat7 Jun 2016 #102
tblue37 Jun 2016 #154
Butterbean Jun 2016 #177
steve2470 Jun 2016 #90
Quantess Jun 2016 #95
cali Jun 2016 #97
Quantess Jun 2016 #99
cali Jun 2016 #101
tblue37 Jun 2016 #155
Ace Rothstein Jun 2016 #96
steve2470 Jun 2016 #100
Chemisse Jun 2016 #103
shanti Jun 2016 #111
cali Jun 2016 #112
Chemisse Jun 2016 #126
tblue37 Jun 2016 #156
proverbialwisdom Jun 2016 #104
tblue37 Jun 2016 #178
BadGimp Jun 2016 #121
Barack_America Jun 2016 #133
pnwmom Jun 2016 #144
cali Jun 2016 #183
Jubilant18 Jun 2016 #132
tblue37 Jun 2016 #157
McCamy Taylor Jun 2016 #139
tblue37 Jun 2016 #158
cali Jun 2016 #162
Hulk Jun 2016 #159
Citrus Jun 2016 #160
leeroysphitz Jun 2016 #163
Jester Messiah Jun 2016 #166
cali Jun 2016 #172
Jester Messiah Jun 2016 #174
pnwmom Jun 2016 #186
pnwmom Jun 2016 #185

Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:54 AM

1. Kickin' it!

"And the response, I couldn't believe it," Hiden said. "It was, 'Those are resident pets, and we've known about them for years. And they're harmless, they're not going to attack anybody."


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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:57 AM

2. Disney is in deep shit. deservedly

 

Hiden went on to say that he told management that he hoped he wasn't going to read about a fatality due to their laxness but that he was sure he would be.

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Response to cali (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:01 AM

4. There will be a quick, generous, confidential settlement.

The last thing Disney wants is for people to be talking about this for years during protracted litigation.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:20 AM

12. Only if the family agrees. They may decide to make Disney pay in more ways than financially.

 

I would want my child's death to mean something. And if means making Disney the corporation wake the f*ck up as well as other families and the Government (both local, state and federal).

Because there is so much evidence pouring in that Disney knew of the problem and did nothing. The incompetence of the management.

How is it that zoos and recreation parks can be this loosely regulated?

How does a zoo have a gorilla enclosure open to the public where a child can simply climb in?

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:57 AM

33. If I was the parent, I'd insist on Disney correcting the

defect. Likely, remove the beaches so families aren't playing in the sand next to the alligators. Or fill the lagoons with dirt, move gators to Everglades.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #33)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:12 AM

40. You can't just move the alligators to the Everglades.

They are everywhere in Florida,, any body of water.....they will find it...

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Response to pangaia (Reply #40)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:41 AM

64. Fine. But there needs to be a remodel of

The outside space to discourage parents from taking their kids, pets etc to areas where they can be attacked. Remove the beach, call it unusable space.

I couldn't live in central or south FL. I'd be wanting to kill the gators, and I don't want to go to jail over it.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #64)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:53 PM

93. I agree...

Except about killing the alligators. After all, they were there first.. I think.



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Response to Ilsa (Reply #64)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:44 PM

119. Apparently one Disney employee

suggested that they build a fence in the slightly deeper water to keep the gators off the beach. Again, the answer from management was..... crickets.

I hope they sue Disney for massive amounts of money. This is sickening.

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Response to leftieNanner (Reply #119)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:23 AM

142. I have read that gators can crawl over fences. nt

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #142)

Sun Jun 19, 2016, 03:44 AM

179. No need to read about it. Watch for yourself;

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Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #179)

Sun Jun 19, 2016, 05:23 PM

180. AAAAUUUGGGHHH!!!

I'll be avoiding that part of the planet, thank you very much!

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #64)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:22 AM

141. Have grass and rocks border the lake, because a white sand beach leading

right up to the water's edge invites people to go to the water's edge--as do the bench swings and beach chairs placed close to the water, and the "Beach NIght" events where they show kids' movies to invite families with kids to hang out on the beach.

Keep the clear signs they have recently (too recently, of course) posted to warn about gators and snakes.

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Response to pangaia (Reply #40)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:11 PM

125. Fine. But the Happiest Place On Earth needs an active hunting program.

 

We used to kill monsters, now we invite them to kill our babies.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #33)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:25 PM

114. A good, maintained hurricane fence and some warning signs is all they need to do.

I've never seen the gator yet that could climb a hurricane fence,
and I've see a lot of gators. I grew up in South Louisiana.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #114)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:21 PM

116. Yeah, at least a fence to discourage people from getting into the water. nt

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:58 PM

120. This is Also What Happens When People are Poorly Paid

People are poorly paid. Sp they have no stake in the business. They don't take responsibility and they are not respected by employers.
If this manager had a lifetime job to run this hotel, plus health and retirement and stock options in the business, something would have been done long long ago about those alligators. It's a flaky world out there when workers are not respected. And this is just one tragic consequence.

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Response to McKim (Reply #120)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:54 PM

122. Yep, bingo

who knows, it's possible some of the lower managers and front line employees brought this too the attention of the upper managers, but were told one of several things, either, "we're looking into it" or "there's no danger, nothing has ever happened" or "if you can come up with a realistic solution to this issue, THEN we will bring it to the higher ups" or "there is no money in the budget for that this year" or even, "yeah, that sounds like it could be an issue. I can reassure you this will definitely be looked at. Thank you so much for letting us know".

Ask me how I know all of these non-answer answers. At least at my job there are no lives at risk. So many times you, as a front line employee, can see the issue plain as day, and you are either told there is no issue, or you are told it is being taken care of and then nothing ever happens.

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Response to McKim (Reply #120)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:34 PM

127. To suggest that this manager

was not full-time and poorly-paid with no benefits is ridiculous.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:21 AM

13. settlement complete with gag order and

 

Full book and movie rights owned by Disney to be locked away in a subterranean vault somewhere

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Response to tk2kewl (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:14 AM

21. Thread winner.

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Response to cali (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:13 AM

6. Disney should be ashamed!

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Response to cali (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:13 AM

20. I cannot believe that anyone who understands the nature of gators

would call them pets.

They are, indeed, in deep shit.

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Response to cali (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:55 PM

134. This is what I don't understand (and I confess I posted this on another thread yesterday)

Disney has a reputation of going to war if there is any reason to even suspect a bed bug might be in a room.

It falls all over itself making sure all the guests' items are steam cleaned and, of course, they get a new room. Sometimes people come back from a day at the parks to find their room has been changed and their belongings cleaned because the maids are taught to look for the tiniest sign of bugs and notify management so it may dealt with immediately. (This is in contrast to many other hotels that, apparently, couldn't care less if there are bugs - they find denial better than dealing with it. It's also a smart reaction as it helps prevent a major infestation.)

Nobody is going to leave "the happiest place on earth" with bugs if Disney can help it, it's bad for business.

But they didn't take the alligator threat seriously?

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Response to cali (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:07 PM

137. I've stayed at this resort.

There is an amazing pool, even has a water slide.

Makes me wonder why folks are choosing to wade into unmarked lagoons.

Seems a bit odd to me.

Just saying.

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #137)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:26 AM

143. Because that is where they were at the time, because the resort encouraged families to come down to

the lovely white sand beach to watch kids' movies for "Beach Night."

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #143)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 08:48 AM

167. For Coranado Springs that is not accurate.

For the Grabd Floridian yes, but I was specifically talking about Coronado.

There isn't any lagoon near Coronado that I would even come close to swimming in.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:01 AM

3. "Those are resident pets" - actually they eat resident pets. n/t

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:12 AM

5. On my visits to the South I learned to stay away from them.

Golf courses, parks, nature trails are full of gators ... from the Carolinas and all parts south. Anything small is fair game, snack time.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:16 AM

9. I'm guessing the person that called them "pets" wouldn't actually have tried to pet one. n/t

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:13 AM

7. I bet that person who called them "pets" is hating themselves now.

Sad to say, they should update the signs from "no swimming" to "No swimming or wading - keep arms and legs out of the water -danger of injury or death - respect Florida Wildlife" to keep it clear that drowning is not the issue, the critters are.

Because alligators are going to be attracted to the shore when they see a small mammal the size of their normal prey splashing at the edge.

I wouldn't foul Disney for installing some dams or gratings to keep adult gators out of their lagoon.

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Response to forgotmylogin (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:16 AM

8. Disney should have a full time gator patrol. The public pays big bucks to visit in the park safely.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #8)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:08 PM

138. It's somewhat likely that they already do.

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #138)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 05:00 AM

161. Then they need to do more.

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Response to forgotmylogin (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:17 AM

22. I would add

Stay 20 feet from water.

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Response to forgotmylogin (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:10 AM

39. Amphibious

It means they can go around any grates are just crawl onto the land

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Response to forgotmylogin (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:15 AM

41. respect Florida Wildlife ,,, will not cut it..

The sign should just say,..

KEEP OUT.....ALLIGATORS -- THEY WILL EAT YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to pangaia (Reply #41)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:21 PM

67. Actually, they will eat young'ins.

If you look at the small number of fatal alligator-related attacks each year, it's only very small children who are taken from land or shallow water. Everyone else older than toddler is listed as "swimming".

Which is what the sign said not to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_alligator_attacks_in_the_United_States

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Response to forgotmylogin (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:11 PM

124. They'd have to fence off the whole lagoon and compound.

Gators can and do cross land. But they could at least install some attractive three foot high, wrought iron fences along the beaches so no one can actually get in the water and gators can't get up on the beach.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:26 PM

98. So THIS guy says

On the other hand, I've read multiple accounts from people who have stayed at the same hotel and said they were constantly warned by the staff about gators in the water.

Not to mention it's posted that people should not be in the water.



Why on earth do people take an unsubstantiated report from an individual and believe it as gospel? Just because Disney is an evil corporation?

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #98)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:58 PM

123. Maybe they were constantly warned about the gators

because the staff knew their higher ups were doing fuck all to improve the situation and they were doing their darndest to warn everyone the best way they could. Unfortunately it's not always possible to talk one on one with every single guest.

Nice username.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #98)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 05:48 AM

164. the signs said "no swimming" not "stay out of water"

 

and none of the signs warned about gators.

Strangers from afar could think the "no swimming" was because there were no lifeguards present.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:16 AM

10. So the 'resident pets' weren't animatronic gators. Sorry for the dark humor

 

but it is almost inconceivable to me that this happened. It's almost too surreal.

The family must be equally grief-striken and outraged at this point.

The management team in Orlando sucks big time. It isn't just Disney who should be held liable.

It's not just the corporate management. It's the ones in Orlando too.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:12 AM

19. me too. I'm flummoxed. This should never have happened.

 

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:50 AM

29. Exactly. The whole point of Disney is to have SAFE fun. Pretend risk.

If people want to take a chance on real risk, they can go camping in a state park or forest. They're not spending hundreds or thousands on a Disney vacation with children in order to subject them to encounters with real alligators.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #29)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:28 AM

145. Remember the film "Westworld"? That is what this reminds me of. nt

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:17 AM

11. Disney World property is approximately 40 square miles.

and almost 12,000 acres of that are dedicated to a wetlands wilderness preserve. Disney is in Florida and Florida has alligators everywhere. We've been visiting Disney before and have seen them sunning themselves on the banks of waterways within the park property. The most I think they have on them is they didn't have signs that specifically said - Danger! Alligators! Although the 'No Swimming' sign definitely means stay out of the water.


Edited to add: Whenever we stayed at the DW Fort Wilderness campground and visited "River Country" (now closed), there is no way that I would let the hubby or kids swim in the natural beach area just because of the risk of gators.

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Response to woodsprite (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:23 AM

14. It sounds like a 10' perimeter should be established around any bodies of water.

 

I have no idea how… fences, low walls, shrubs?

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:26 AM

15. I think at the time they said they had a 'gator net' in the River Country area

I wasn't about to trust a net to keep them out of the area where kids and adults were splashing about, using the rope swings, water slides, and inner tubes.

There are plenty of water things to do inorder to cool off at Disney, so they wouldn't "need" to use the beach areas, etc.. DW could use some of the really invisible type fencing they use in the Animal Kingdom if they were concerned with aesthetics.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:55 AM

50. It better be a big fence

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Response to Baclava (Reply #50)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:08 PM

80. And here is a video of a cat fighting an alligator and winning :)

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Response to Else You Are Mad (Reply #80)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:21 PM

82. Good kitty! Stare em right in the eye!

Pop em right on the nose. Cats ain't askeeered of no old reptiles!

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Response to Baclava (Reply #82)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:22 PM

83. Cats don't mess around!

Though, knowing my cats, they would run away lol

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Response to Else You Are Mad (Reply #83)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:36 PM

176. Mine would likely

 

kill it and drag it home to show me what she did that day.

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Response to Else You Are Mad (Reply #80)

Sun Jun 19, 2016, 05:34 PM

181. Holy crap these people are FOOLS, are you KIDDING ME?

WOW.

This is their pet? They had a chance to pick it up and get it outta there and they don't? And their young children are just milling around with two large gators just feet away?

WTH is wrong with these people?

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Response to brett_jv (Reply #181)

Sun Jun 19, 2016, 06:42 PM

184. I think that was a stray cat. nt

And, I think these people are morons. But, that doesn't detract from the badass-ness of the cats. But, I am guessing they are southerners that deal with alligators all the time.

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Response to woodsprite (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:56 AM

31. "No swimming" means what it says. It doesn't mean "don't even dip your toes

in the water." In most localities, the issue is potential drowning and the lack of lifeguards. That's why they're posted for "no swimming." People from outside of Florida won't be accustomed to worrying about alligators in waterways -- particularly a man-made Disney lagoon.

But at least one report by officials yesterday said that the family wasn't in the water -- they were sitting on the beach. The alligator lunged out of the water and snatched the boy. And there are photographs showing that Disney chairs and tables are lined up just a few feet from the edge of the water. Clearly Disney wasn't taking the risk seriously.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:35 AM

16. I hope people realize Disney and man are the invasive species in Florida.

Gators were there first. Disney built in their home.

I only have to contend with deer and raccoons. They eat my shrubs, raid my garbage cans and crap in the yard. My sister in Florida on the other hand ends up with snakes and gators in her pool.

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Response to JonathanRackham (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:05 AM

17. My Orlando friend

Has bears in her neighborhood.

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Response to JonathanRackham (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:00 AM

35. Are you defending the gator responsible for the attack?

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Response to LS_Editor (Reply #35)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:23 AM

44. Only if the gator doesen't vote for Trump.

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Response to LS_Editor (Reply #35)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:30 AM

62. Alligators do what alligators do. They've been that way for a million years.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:09 AM

18. omg..

 

Well, we officially have witness #1 for the plaintiffs if Disney doesn't do the right thing by this poor family that lost their 2 year old son in such a horrific & tragic way..

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Response to disillusioned73 (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:55 AM

30. If it were my child who died,

 

my first thought would not be how much money I would be paid, but rather how much pain could be inflicted on the corporation and responsible individuals.

Massive publicity, criminal and civil charges, massive fines, whatever.

Talk about living in a dream world--what sane person would consider a gator domesticated?

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #30)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:29 PM

70. Agreed..

 

I hope my "poor family" reference didn't come off as monetarily poor - just a sympathetic poor..

You do have a point about making Disney pay on various levels..

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #30)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:58 PM

108. Irrationality abounds

You're taking the word of a lawyer who claims the conversation went the way he said and suggesting you would want to "make the corporation pay" including *criminal* charges.

Who broke the law, exactly? And what law?

It's the first time this has happened in the 45 years the park has been in existence. The have over 50 million visitors annually, and I'm sure it's billions since they opened.

So we're literally talking about a one in a few billion event. To what extent do we need to "protect" from such things? People are talking about hiring a team of people to relocate alligators, reconfiguring protected wetlands, installing ecosystem-changing fencing and more - because ONE incident occurred in billions of visitors.

The kid was in the water, unsupervised at that moment. What percentage of the blame is the parents compared to Disney World? And what percentage is "shit happens".

Based on some of the ridiculous overreactions in this thread, if a kid falls and scrapes their knee on the sidewalk, we need an immediate army of sidewalk monitors throughout the country, and we need to issue jeans to every kid and hand protectors, and pass a law that they must be worn 24/7, and tear up all sidewalks and install that rubber stuff they put in playgrounds, and make mandatory training for kids a requirement throughout the country, and on and on.

Let's not even talk about alcohol being legal or cigarettes or cars being able to go more than 30mph or not having every train surrounded by advanced crowd control and surveillance electronics, etc.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #108)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:43 PM

118. Codswollop.

 

1. I'm not taking the word of anybody, and certainly not of some lawyer I didn't even refer to.

2. I don't effing care how long "the park" has been open. This particular section (the Bora Bora Bungalows) is quite new, but already several witnesses are being reported as saying that guests had been feeding the gators, that the gators were accustomed to humans, etc. Management ignored said warnings, there were no signs, no barriers, no action taken. Granted I am not an attorney but that sounds like criminal negligence to me.

3. Apparently the child was not swimming, or wading; he was on the adjacent beach with his family following the conclusion of some evening entertainment. Evening entertainment...in gator habitat...critters that habitually feed at night...a fact that should have been known to employees and operators of the facility, but was likely unknown to tourists.

Fuck the "shit happens" crap. This was a set-up for a tragedy and that's what they got. Throw the fucking book at them (and I don't mean low-level employees).

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #118)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:41 PM

140. You're right. It was bound to happen eventually.

If you have gators in the area, you don't tempt them by just allowing small children to play at the edge of the water.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #108)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 05:54 AM

165. How about signs that warn alligators are present that may feed on small pets and babies

 

Not just "no swimming," but no wading and stay away from the edge of water.

How about if you're going to invite people with small children down to the beach for kid's movie night, you advise them to stay well away from the edge of the water while they're there because there could be alligators lurking.

Ps, this kid didn't fall and scrape his knee. He was taken by an alligator and killed in front of his parents.

It's really not rocket science. It's a resort with visitors from around the world who aren't likely familiar with the local wildlife and dangers.

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #165)

Sun Jun 19, 2016, 05:42 PM

182. How about not 'inviting kids to the beach' when alligators may be in the water AT ALL?

There's always that wacky, crazy approach I suppose ...

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #30)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:45 PM

130. +1

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:29 AM

23. "NO SWIMMING" I'm prettty sure most of us would agree means do not go in the water....

from BBC Earth... "A 2010 report tallied all the reported alligator attacks over the 81 years from 1928 to 2009. It found there were only 24 deaths from alligators in the United States, most of them in Florida."

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160616-it-is-surprisingly-rare-for-an-alligator-to-kill-a-person

approximately 50 MILLION people per year visit Disney World... (opened 1971)

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Response to NoMoreRepugs (Reply #23)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:35 AM

25. They recently opened on-water bungalows from which guests have been FEEDING alligators

 


Saying the park opened in 1971 is just plain ignorant of the circumstances.

This hotel opened in 1988, not 1971.

A few months ago, Disney opened up the "Bora Bora Bungalows" across from this beach.

The bungalows are built on piles in the water.

Guests have been feeding alligators from the decks of those bungalows, and employee complaints went unheeded.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3645504/Disney-ignored-employees-complaints-guests-2-000-night-bungalows-feeding-alligators.html

The problem has allegedly been exacerbated by the opening of the new $2,000-a-night Bora Bora Bungalows, a an expensive collection of private rooms situated directly on the Seven Seas Lagoon - just across from the beach where Lane was snatched.

The bungalows have private porches and guests apparently feed the alligators as they float past.

'Disney has known about the problem of guests feeding the alligators well-prior to the opening of the bungalows,' said an insider. 'With the opening of the bungalows, it brought the guests that much closer to wildlife. Or, the wildlife that much closer to the guests.'

A few employees said they had complained about the bungalow guests feeding the alligators, but alleged that park officials may have been hesitant to reprimand guests staying in $2,000-a-night suites.

'Disney knew these alligators had become desensitized to humans, as they had begun to associate guests with food, and did not act in a proactive manner,' the insider added.

--

What does "opened 1971" have to do with what happened?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #25)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:59 AM

34. I don't understand your objection to the 1971 reference

It is a fact that Disneyworld opened in 1971. I don't know how you can say that pointing this out is "ignorant of the facts".

All the poster was doing was referencing an article which happened to mention when Disney opened.

Perhaps the context was that Disney has had over 45 years overall to gauge the dangers of alligators on their property, and failed to mitigate that risk.

Frankly, I don't see the relavence to this discussion of the fact that the hotel opened in 1988. Now, what does THAT have to do with anything here?

You strike me as a grumpy, hyper-correctionist semantics twister.

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Response to SpankMe (Reply #34)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:52 PM

168. Then let me help you understand

 

Although give that you seem more interested in personal insults than rational argument...

"Perhaps the context was that Disney has had over 45 years overall to gauge the dangers of alligators..."

No, they have not been operating this hotel for over 45 years, and the theme park does not have this sort of beach facility. Additionally it has been only a matter of months since Disney opened bungalows on the water directly adjacent to the beach area of this hotel, and from which bungalows management has known the guests were feeding alligators and thus desensitizing them to humans.

Neither this waterfront resort nor the alligator feeding at the nearby bungalows have been going on for 45 years.

Now you can reach back into your bag of childish insults and "respond"

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #25)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:45 PM

135. Who cares when the hotel opened?

Why the lengthy rant about the hotel's opening date, for heaven's sake?

Looks like Mr. Grumpy's looking for someone to dance with.

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Response to Old Crow (Reply #135)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:03 PM

136. It's pretty simple

 


It seems to be often repeated in these threads that WDW has been around since 1971 and has had millions of visitors, as a point suggesting that those two facts demonstrate some sort of obvious safety of this beach area at this hotel.

Those two facts, dutifully trotted out in the post to which I was responded, are irrelevant to the circumstances of this beach at this hotel which (a) has not been around since 1971, (b) has not had millions of visitors and (c) is directly adjacent to a relatively new facility at which guests have been feeding alligators with the knowledge of management.

Put simply, the defensive argument that "it has been there since 1971 and has had millions of visitors" is both factually and legally irrelevant to the circumstances here.

It is also unfortunate that some people cannot have a discussion without juvenile personal characterizations.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #25)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:03 PM

170. The bungalos are at the Polynesian Resort, not The Grand Floridian resort.

The are on the same body of water, but not that close as you suggest. Its very possible that people feeding gators are a factor, also those bungalos have been only open for a year or less.

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Response to apnu (Reply #170)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:11 PM

171. An aerial shot is in the article I posted

 

And they are quite nearby.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #171)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:22 PM

173. I have been there. Stayed at the Poly, walked to the Grand for dinner.

They are at least 1/2 mile from each other, plus the size of the Grand adds to the distance. The compund for that resort is huge. You post suggested they were close, its like a 20 minute walk at a brisk pace, from where the bungalos are and the beach where the attack occured. Arial shots do a very poor job of giving a sense of scale and distance.

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Response to apnu (Reply #173)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:06 PM

175. The alligators don't have to walk

 

Last edited Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Alligators swim. They swim much faster than a brisk walk. They cruise the edge looking for prey. They have been conditioned by the guests at the bungalows to approach humans.

Using Google earth and the distance scale, it is about 2000 feet. Less than half a mile. It is a longer walk, but the alligators don't have to go around the rim of the lake.

At a relaxed alligator swim speed of 10mph that is three minutes.

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Response to NoMoreRepugs (Reply #23)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:00 AM

36. No, most of us do not agree. That's why in OTHER locales

there are signs that say "no swimming, no wading, and danger: alligators."

"No swimming" does not mean "don't even dip your toes in the water." In most non-alligator states, the issue is potential drowning and the lack of lifeguards. That's why they're posted for "no swimming." People from outside of Florida won't be accustomed to worrying about alligators in waterways -- particularly a man-made Disney lagoon.

But at least one report by officials yesterday said that the family wasn't in the water -- they were sitting on the beach. The alligator lunged out of the water and snatched the boy. And there are photographs showing that Disney chairs and tables are lined up just a few feet from the edge of the water. Clearly Disney wasn't taking the risk seriously.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:31 AM

24. It's Florida.

 

If you have water you have Alligators. Maybe there should have been a sign there because of the ignorance of visitors, but there are no signs almost everywhere.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #24)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:37 AM

26. So, you think Disney was correct in not telling the Bora Bora guests not to feed the alligators?

 


Yes, it's Florida.

And Disney has known for months that guests have been feeding alligators at the new bungalows that opened next to the Grand Floridian.

And you don't see a problem there?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:42 AM

27. I'm not familiar with that situation.

 

Feeding Alligators is highly illegal and endangers the public.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #27)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:45 AM

28. That's what was going on, management knew it, and didn't stop it

 


There have been so many "It's Florida, there are alligators" posts which completely ignore the reality of what was going on in this lake.

People don't go to Disney because it is in Florida. They go to Florida because that's where Disney is.

If Disney World was in Akron, Ohio, they'd be going there.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:56 AM

32. I've mostly stayed away from this news item

 

and the OP didn't mentioned the feeding issue. Clearly feeding alligators creates a dangerous situation.

Beyond the feeding alligator situation, Disney, or anyone else in Florida, shouldn't be removing alligators from where they belong.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #32)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:47 AM

47. Maybe they shouldn't have man-made lagoons where children belong.

And have "beach nights" next to said lagoons.

Or maybe put up a man made fence around the man made lagoon.


This was on my Facebook feed:

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #47)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:04 PM

65. That's irresponsible on Disney's part.

 

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #47)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:33 PM

115. They're putting in a fence now

http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2016/6/17/disney_workers_build.html



I'm sure it will be a big fence. A terrific fence. The alligators will pay for it.

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Response to spinbaby (Reply #115)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:57 PM

169. When they send alligators to that beach, they aren't sending their best...

 

They're sending murderers, reptiles... and we need to shut that down until we know what's going on.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #47)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:05 AM

146. Self-deleted dupe. nt

Last edited Sun Jun 19, 2016, 02:42 AM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #47)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:08 AM

147. This woman says she took pictures of her own son wading in the lake

Last edited Sun Jun 19, 2016, 02:48 AM - Edit history (1)

less than an hour before little Lane was taken by the alligator:

?4944759619385940435

Obviously the staff need to make it much clearer to visitors that there is a real danger of alligators grabbing little kids if they are close to the water or actually even in it, especially at night, during gator feeding hours. Instead, though, they obviously let tourists and their kids hang out near the water and even wade in it, without making clear what the dangers are. Naturally the tourists will assume that if it were not safe, they would be clearly warned about the nature of the dangers involved.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #24)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:37 PM

128. Floridian here, and that's true, but Disneys whole purpose is to create safe place

For fantasy, centered around kids.

Lulls people into a false sense of security.

Some are saying kid wasn't even in the water.
But it bothers me that they went to the trouble of "No Swimming - Steep Dropoff". That was t the only problem. A parent out enjoying themselves is gonna read that and think "aha! Danger of drowning" and assume that is the only hazard that NEEDS to be on their mind.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:00 AM

37. So this guy let his kid go into the water, past the signs that said no swimming

and its "NOT his fault" :wft:

No Swimming sign would indicate - Don't go in the water! DUH!


Florida RULE 1 - If there is water, they most likely are alligators. It is where they live!



Let's kill all the alligators in Florida already, then you all will be happy.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #37)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:20 AM

42. wading is not swimming.

 

and no one is suggesting killing all the alligators in Florida. Certainly no one on DU has expressed any such thing.

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Response to cali (Reply #42)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:15 AM

58. Wading is in the water

Since the sign does not state why there is no swimming, I would think you don't want to touch the stuff.

Who knows what is in there.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #58)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:17 PM

66. Umm.... Disney knew.

We're hearing a lot now (from the famously reliable internet) that Disney was certainly on notice of a potential problem:
- new bungalows at the water's edge
- employees concerned over guests feeding the gators
- past removal of alligators in the lagoon
- a report of a near incident weeks ago
- a continued policy of holding beach events at feeding time

But even without such facts, Disney SHOULD have known and taken steps to address the problem. If it is simply common sense for ANYONE to know and take precautions around water in Florida, then shouldn't Disney be held to that same standard? And the standard is "reasonable precautions" - no one says they have to be perfect. Just reasonable. But if they are going to invite every toddler in the world to come vacation at their paradise, they damn well should take reasonable steps to make sure its safe for those toddlers to toddle around.

So, to me, the question is "Why didn't Disney place signs warning of the alligators in the lagoon"? There has to have been a decision made by someone, somewhere that it wasn't something they wanted or felt they needed to do. If Disney has a reasonable answer to that question, then that is their defense. If not, they're in a pickle.

A "No Swimming" sign might tell some people to stay out of the water altogether. But isn't it also reasonable to take such a sign literally as don't "swim". Standing in 5-10 inches of water isn't really swimming. Standing on the sand right at the water's edge isn't really swimming. And just because YOU would take such a sign as "OMG, WHATEVER you do - STAY AWAY - FAR, FAR AWAY - from this highly dangerous H2O - We're NOT KIDDING!, Damn it. Stay BACK!!! BACK I say!", can't you appreciate the fact that not everyone would be expected take it that way?

When a Nebraskan sees a "No Swimming" sign, maybe they think that there is a drowning risk. Maybe they think the water has chemicals in it. Maybe the floor has sharp stones, or there is an undertow. I don't necessarily expect someone who has not grown up around gators to think there is a risk of being eaten. I certainly wouldn't expect that to be their first thought.

And, for Carl's sake, DON'T kill all the gators (or the gophers, for that matter). They are just being themselves.

But DO hold Disney accountable for not taking reasonable steps to protect its invitees on the premises.

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Response to cali (Reply #42)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:30 AM

60. I always thought "No Swimming" meant stay out of the water

I've seen signs like that in parks, at beaches and at swimming pools when they're closed and it's always meant do not go in the water.

Regardless, this tragedy will undoubtably cause big changes at Disney World. The Disney Corporation is extremely careful about their public image and they won't let this story fester because it will negatively impact their business. Not to be cynical but I can even see them try to find a positive way out of this. For example, they might make a big to-do about their new safety features and add it to their marketing of the theme parks

Right now, I'm sure they've already taken action to close off the ponds and other safety steps. They're probably in constant touch with the family and will try to do everything they can to assist them. No doubt there will be a huge financial settlement and perhaps other compensations. Having worked with a part of that corporation, that's how they roll. In another post, I commented that it's likely that Disney's liability insurance policies were followed to the letter. Those policies and responsibilities will probably be changed. Further, the state of Florida may pass more safety regulations for theme parks.

But one aspect of this story bugs me. With all due respect for the family, and my comment here is meant in the most general terms, there seems to be a lack of common sense or perhaps education and understanding about dangerous animals. One CANNOT go near them. Whether it's alligators, apes, lions, snakes or even unknown dogs, I don't understand why people don't treat them with the greatest care and respect. I know that Disney World is supposed to be magical but they built it in the wilderness, for cryin' out loud! Even birds can be dangerous: when our dog was a puppy, an eagle almost swooped him up. I've seen large geese and swans attack golfers if they are too close to their offspring. Animals can be lethal.

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Response to cali (Reply #42)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:26 PM

85. No Swimming means don't go in the water

 

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #37)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:00 AM

52. It was a "beach"

I grew up near Chicago wading in and "dangling toes" in water where swimming was prohibited. My dad used to say "let's go downtown and dangle our toes"


A man made lagoon with a sand beach is an invitation to wade and play in the water.

Besides, the latest reports I saw was the kid wasn't in the water. He was snatched off the sand after a "beach night" event.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #37)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:10 AM

55. You've been staunchly defending Disney, I don't get it.....

If anyone should be defending Disney, it should be ME. They have been in my community for 45 years, and provided jobs and entertainment to millions. My area was transformed from a sleepy southern backwater by Disney, for which I'm grateful.

However.....they fucked up. We will never agree. I don't get why you and others defend them so staunchly. F****K Disney. They were cold-blooded and baked the value of a little boy's life into their profit calculations, and now a little boy is dead.

FUCK DISNEY. They need to be raked over the coals publicly, their internal decision making exposed, and made to pay and take all the proper precautions.

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #55)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:19 AM

59. Parents need to be responsible for their children

Just like the gorilla incident in the Zoo. The gorilla and the zoo were blamed because a mother let her kid climb past the barrier.

Here the parents let their kid go in the water past the signs that say no swimming. And they did it at dusk when gators feed during mating season.

Disney isn't there to babysit your kids, unless you pay for their service. Had they been in a Disney babysitter care, this would not have happened, the sitter would not have allowed the kid near the water.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #59)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:39 PM

71. Haven't you read any of the posts above.

Some say the child wasn't even in the water! I grew up in southern FL, and I know for a fact that alligators will lunge out of the water to capture their prey. There are pictures posted above showing beach chairs near the water, and children playing in the sand. A motivated gator can and will make a quick lunge...especially if it has been encouraged by prior feedings from guests. Your defense of Disney is sickening...at least until all the relevant facts are known.

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Response to mentalsolstice (Reply #71)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:35 PM

87. Some say?

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #87)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:15 PM

94. I have heard that witnesses....

Have said that the child wasn't in the water. You seem to want split hairs without having all of the facts. My point is that it really doesn't matter. There are chairs close enough to the waters edge to imply that it is a safe area. I lived most of my childhood in neighborhoods with canals. I've seen gators lunge onto land at lightening speed and take off back into the water just as fast.

Look at the picture posted above. It's conceivable that one of those children could be attacked. Other pictures have been posted that show beach chairs provided by Disney situated just a few feet from the water, which to me implies it's a safe area to walk, sit, and play in the sand. If you were to ask me, any kind of signage would not be enough, actual barriers between the beach area and the water should be erected. Unless this father was actually dangling his son in front of a sighted alligator, he is not responsible for what happened. I would speculate that even Floridians who have a knowledge about gators could let their guard down with a set up like this. After all it's Disney, the happiest place on earth!

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #87)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:32 PM

131. Fox "News" viewer? ( n)

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #59)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:47 PM

72. There were no "watch for gator" signs for at the park

Unlike the gorilla pit which clearly had signs marked all over the place Disney did not provide warnings that dangerous wild life inhabits its waters, nor did it take precautions like the zoo did in enacting barriers to separate the guests from the beasts. That kind of negligence is known as strict liability and whether you like it or not they will be held responsible for that kid's death. A no swimming sign is usually there to prevent lawsuits from someone drowning in their lake, not from an animal that drags its victims into a lake.

Blaming the parents for an animal attack INSIDE A HOTEL RESORT is just plain heartless.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #59)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:43 PM

129. You mean like the parents of this boy who was't even in the water?

So what exactly did they do that was so irresponsible? Are you choosing to completely ignore the reports that he wasn't even in the water at all? It's been mentioned several times in this thread and I know it's been reported since the story broke.

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #55)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:04 PM

109. Sounds like you know a lot

about something know nothing about.

Yeah, the figured alligators eating kids into their profit calculations because it happens.... oh.... NEVER before.

And "made to take all the proper precautions" - in other words, you think no expense should be spared to save people from either one-in-a-billion events that they themselves put themselves into, and/or you want no expense spared in making sure nothing can ever go wrong.

It's life. Getting eaten by an alligator is such an infinitesimally remote possibility that the response here is off into looney-land.

Where can I find the thread with all the DU'ers banding together to ban alcohol due to the tens of thousands of people who die from it every year through liver disease, car accidents, slip-and-fall and such?

I'm sure that thread must be right on the front page somewhere, with all the same shocked-and-appalled-about-Disney people posting feverishly about how to stop the slaughter. Can't seem to find that thread though.

Things that make you go "hmmmm....."

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #109)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:07 PM

110. Proper signs = a few thousand dollars

Staff telling people not to feed gators: Not that pricey, included in their salaries

Literature handed out telling people to stay 20 feet away from all bodies of water: Not that expensive


I'd say what I think of you, but I'd get a hide. Good day.

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #110)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:20 PM

113. Sounds like your wealth of inexperience is even greater previously demonstrated

Now you have knowledge of what the staff doesn't say to guests also? Must be nice to know everything about a situation just by reading a single, biased article.

I guess the stories on Reddit of people who were staying at the SAME hotel in the SAME week as this kid were killed were lying when they said they were wanted daily to beware the alligators. But hey, why worry about pesky things like first hand accounts when we have a news story from a lawyer that's not corroborated by anything - yeah, let's get Disney, those bastards! They just got lucky billions of times - I'm sure alligators were inches away from mauling hundreds of children - and Disney just got lucky. They probably don't even have a security staff or any wildlife people on payroll at all - those utter bastards!

I am having a good day, thank you. Life is good when I don't spend it freaking out about impossibly improbable events and corporations need to protect me from those events.

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Response to Corporate666 (Reply #109)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:17 AM

148. Ford figured likely deaths into its financial calculations when they decided not

to fix the design flaw in the Pinto. They ended up being held liable for the deaths that caused.

Big corporations often do make such cold cost-benefit analyses that include possible deaths from choosing the path that they think will be less likely to harm their bottom line.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:04 AM

38. When I was child in the '60s, alligators were considered an endangered species...

When I moved to Florida in the '70s, it was a local news worthy event when a gator showed up in someone's yard. A gator in the pond was a selling point for some apartment complexes. By the '90s, there were so many gator incidents (gators in pools, gators grabbing a dog or cat, gator under the porch, etc.) in residential areas that I thought, perhaps, just maybe, we'd gone overboard on protecting and restoring these animals... they seem to reproduce like rabbits.

Now the only time they make the news is when a giant gator strolls across a golf course, or a humogous one (27 feet long) is spotted swimming along the water way carrying a full-sized deer, or a smaller (five and a half feet) gator politely and law abidingly uses the cross walk, or when someone is greviously injured or killed.

This is Florida folks. Assume that any fresh water or brachish water has its resident reptiles including gators, Eastern Diamondback rattlesnakes, pygmy rattlesnakes, water moccasins and other dangerous wild life that are real, not Disneyesque animatroics. And they think they have a perfect right to live and hunt in their native lands.

On edit: I find it incredible that people are stupid enough to feed alligators... Would they go dump chum in the ocean and then go swimming? BTW, you would not believe how many sharks swim the waters just off the beaches.

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Response to 1monster (Reply #38)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:11 AM

56. Amen.

As one FLA resident to another, I get sick & tired of tourist stupidity. Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together knows that you should never feed any dangerous wild animal. If the asshats went to Alaska on vacation I guess they would be feeding the grizzly bears.

I am also tired of the whining about "gee, how are tourists supposed to know there are alligators in FLA?".
Jeezus wept.
Look, I have never been to India, but I sure as hell know better than to go wading in the Ganges.

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Response to bullsnarfle (Reply #56)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:14 AM

57. Those that feed the grizzly bears would probably become bear food

Feeding wild animals is insane.

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Response to bullsnarfle (Reply #56)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:29 AM

149. That is a straw man. The argument being made is NOT that the tourists don't know that

there are gators in Florida, but that they assumed that an expensive Disney World resort marketed to families, complete with a serene manmade lake and a white sand beach running right up to the water's edge would be a safe place for their kids to play on the beach, especially since the resort invited families to spend the evening ON THE BEACH watching kids' moves, during gator feeding hours.

Most non-Floridians don't realize that gators can and do get into every bit of water, including backyard pools and drainage ditches, or that there is no way for Disney to actually keep them out of the manmade lakes at their resorts. For example, I knew about gators in backyard pools, and my son, who took his master's at Florida University, told me about the gators in the lake on campus, but I still had no idea that there would be gators in the manmade lake at an expensive Disney resort. (I even lived in Florida from 1958 to 1962).

By making such an inviting white sand beach running all the way to the water's edge, placing bench swings and beach chairs right near the water, and encouraging families and little kids to come to the beach at night to watch movies and play, the resort was clearly implying that it would be safe to do so. Furthermore, all the pictures I have seen of many kids playing near the water or wading near the edge suggests that the staff was not making any real effort to stop parents from letting their kids do that.

ON EDIT: This picture is from the Polynesian Resort, where an alligator came up out of the water after the kids in a British family a few weeks ago. Notice how close the beach chairs are to the water's edge. The few pics of such chairs I have seen for the Grand Floridian also have beach chairs and bench swings close to the water:



Oh, and as this map shows, the two resorts are quite close to each other, on the same lake:

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Response to 1monster (Reply #38)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:34 AM

63. Funny that you bring up chump.

 

My friend swam for a FL college and one day, while the women were training at the beach, chump was dumped from the pier. She said the coaches went on a total freak out. Some people just have no respect for nature or human life!

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Response to 1monster (Reply #38)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:43 PM

91. Actually, there are several companies

.....that run shark encounter tours in the Keys, and they do chum (or use a "scent" as some call it -- the only scent I'm aware of that will attract a shark is blood) the water to draw sharks in. These are "viewing only" tours -- no swimming with the sharks -- but it is an incredibly bad idea, IMHO, because what they're doing is desensitizing sharks to human contact, and the sharks begin to associate boats + people = potential food source.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:23 AM

43. Why not just play golf?

 

Here's why:

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Response to Liberalagogo (Reply #43)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:32 AM

45. You got to play it as it lies

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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #45)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:49 PM

106. Or request a Mulligan.

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Response to Liberalagogo (Reply #43)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:07 PM

79. I have golfed at that course many times.

 

They have great respect for the gators there and try to just leave them alone. Absolute monster gators all over that course.

On a side note it is one of the best links style courses you will find in the area. Really cool and reminds you of courses you see in Scotland.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:45 AM

46. In Florida, gated communities eject 'resident' gators when they reach 3' in length, including tail.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #46)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:32 AM

150. Disney has a 4-foot limit, but still, it is probably impossible to find them all. nt

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:51 AM

48. Had an attack 30 years ago and 1 a couple months ago


Man seized by gator at Disney in 1986 horrified for Nebraska boy's family: http://www.omaha.com/news/metro/man-seized-by-gator-at-disney-in-horrified-for-nebraska/article_4a32a9e0-33fb-11e6-a4e5-0f4a70af1567.html

Terrified Brit family 'chased by alligator' at same Disney resort weeks before beast took toddler: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/terrified-brit-family-chased-alligator-8197003

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:53 AM

49. Alligators don't make good pets.

I know that attacks on humans are rare, but that doesn't mean you can trust them.

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #49)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:33 AM

151. We had a pet cayman when I was a girl. His name was George, and he reached 2 feet before he died:

pettales.homestead.com/george.html

(We called him an alligator, but we knew he really was a cayman. It just seemed easier not to get technical about the name.)

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Response to NaturalHigh (Reply #49)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:36 AM

152. Here is a story from one of my websites about a young man

Last edited Sun Jun 19, 2016, 03:36 PM - Edit history (1)

who was charged by a 6-footer while peeing behind a tree in the Everglades:

http://pettales.homestead.com/alligatorencounter.html

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:59 AM

51. Disney F******D up, it's as clear as the nose on my face

There is NO humane and logical argument against this. They simply got lucky for 45 years, and the luck finally ran out. Time for Disney to pay the piper, meaning a gigantic settlement with the parents, banning all feeding of gators by all reasonable means, signs everywhere, and explicitly informing guests somehow to stay the F****K away from fresh water.

This is going to hurt Disney, which is my area's largest employer, but SORRY, HUMAN LIFE COMES BEFORE CORPORATE PROFITS.

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #51)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:05 AM

53. Not quite so fast.. I want to know the corporate decision processes that went into this

I think this is a Ford Pinto exploding gas tank situation, warning the guests about gators would scare some of them off and cost corporate profits.

The bungalows that people were feeding gators from are $2,000 a night, Disney isn't going to tell anyone that can pay that kind of money that they might be in danger if they think they can get away with it.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #53)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:07 AM

54. Actually you are correct, I think this was a conscious decision by Disney to NOT scare the guests...

They calculated the value of a human life, baked it into all the financial calculations and voila, a child dies.

Time for Disney to get reamed publicly like Ford was, and pay the piper.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #53)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:47 AM

153. I have been making the Pinto analogy, too. It seems germane. nt

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:30 AM

60. So many alligators in that area. Big ones, too.

 

Overall, they are correct, gators don't attack people often.

1) Gators are often more of a threat at places like this, not less of a threat. No matter how hard they try to monitor it people vacationing will feed the gators. They become use to people feeding them. When they get use to it and see someone walking up to the water they swim over looking for their treat. That means at best you now have a gator next to someone with food on its mind. Worst, they take a bite.

2) A large portion of a gators food in Florida comes from picking small animals off the bank while they are drinking water or eating. It is the perfect scene. We have all seen how a large gator can lay in wait in shallow water near the bank. Those who are either short like a child or kneeling over look just like their food source on the bank.

3) For the most part, March, April, May and June are gator mating season. It fluctuates a little dependent on how we come out of the winter and other factors. They can get extremely nasty during these months. We cannot expect our out of state friends to know this. You have seen little as nasty as an alligator during the height of mating season. Most Floridians immediately recognize the "grunt" noise they make during this time. It is a sure sign to stay away.

Disney seems to need to get their head out of their ass on this one. These lakes should be clearly marked. That need is elevated considering one of their goals is to bring consumers in from out of state. I deal with a lot of people from up north who have never spent time in the south and they are, for the most part, completely uneducated about alligators. Makes sense. Disney has a responsibility to protect them within reason. Proper signage is clearly within reason.

I have swam in plenty of lakes with large populations of alligators. I have often positioned myself to get very close camera shots of large gators. I find them to be beautiful. I would never do any of those things during this time of year. The people there should be given warning. So many we attract to the Kissimmee area are not from Florida.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #60)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:54 PM

74. Not my mention is was at night. Feeding time, as I understand it.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #74)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:59 PM

76. Dusk, dawn, and night are big feeding times.

 

Dusk and dawn are when many animals are by the side drinking. They are either just finishing or just starting their day. Then there are the nocturnal animals at night. Gators are often somewhat still during the day using the heat to build energy. They then use the darkness to help them hunt at night.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #76)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:04 PM

77. I saw this the other day

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #77)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:16 PM

81. I use to do a lot of bass fishing in lakes around my area at night.

 

It was always in the back of my mind. It really wasn't that dangerous outside of mating season. There are still things you just don't do. A child should never be near the bank at night. Most full grown adults are ok when standing near the bank. You also don't kneel down to retie a lure or anything similar. It puts you in the position of looking small. Two adults were killed by gators within a month a couple of years ago. Crack pipes were on the bank where they were taken. Kneeling down near the bank smoking. It's a bad move to kneel down near the bank of freshwater in Florida.

Again, there are few safe places during mating season.

That is a good sign though I would argue the phrase "At Dusk" should be removed. Sure is better than a simple no swimming sign.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #77)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:52 PM

107. Excellent warning sign.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:26 PM

68. They're animals. They're wild. They go wherever the fuck they want.

If you relocate them they'll come back. If you kill them more will move in. It's water in Florida. There are gators in it.

Sometimes things happen and they're not anybody's fault.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #68)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:50 PM

73. Um. bullshit. All Disney had to do was post "no swimming- alligators"

 

Disney didn't take that simple step. I wager that parents would be a lot more careful had those signs been posted.

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Response to cali (Reply #73)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:56 PM

75. exactly

I know, had I been with my small son years ago, I would have stayed WAYYY away from the water. Disney messed up, hugely. They didn't want to scare the guests, because of lower profits.

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Response to cali (Reply #73)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:47 PM

105. The sign said no swimming.

It's Florida. You don't have to be a local to know what that means, you just have to be able to fog a mirror.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #105)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:33 PM

117. Unfortunately, this child didn't even have to in the water to be at risk.

Gators will lunge out of water several feet for easy prey. See the pictures above of the children playing in the sand. At the right time of day, or season, it's foreseeable they could be attacked. Any first year law student can tell you that it should have been reasonably foreseeable to Disney that an attack such as this could occur. And you take your plaintiff as you find them....so a family with no knowledge of gator behavior at waters edge.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:28 PM

69. I grew up watching "Wild Kingdom..."

If someone had said that to me what the manager had said, I'd know that he or she was either crazy, ignorant or both.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #69)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:07 PM

78. Maybe she watched and only paid attention to Marlin Perkins.

He was always safe in the studio while poor Jim was getting chased up a fucking tree.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:24 PM

84. By hosting "beach parties" by this particular body of water, and having benches present

Disney gave the image of false security and safety. Why would Disney host a beach party by a body of water that was dangerous, after all? That is the conclusion I would think most people would come to, myself included.

Yes, alligators are dangerous animals, and yes, they are ubiquitous in Florida, but I confess that even though I *know* such facts, my brain may have disconnected somehow inside the "Disney bubble" and thought the way a lot of people tend to think: bad things like alligators don't happen at Disney. Yes, it's a pipe dream and ignorant and call it what you will, but it's how a lot of people think, and Disney is absolutely one of the experts at lulling people into a sense of security and being in "another world" where everything is safe, perfect, and magical. It's easy to forget the dangers.

Even living where I do in the south, my spouse, born and raised here, didn't know the true dangers of alligator snapping turtles and was about to try to pick one up and move it before I intervened and told him not to touch the animal, lest he lose a finger (or hand, or wrist....). I see people on the beaches all the time letting their children dig deep sand pits unsupervised without a care in the world. I see people trying to "thaw" their windshields by pouring warm or hot water on them in the winter. The point here is, not everybody knows everything about everything. Some knowledge is regional, even with the advent of google and the internet, and some people simply do. not. know. about the dangers around them without giant warning signs and captain obvious yelling and pointing them out.

This is even more true in the Disney bubble. Regardless of who is at fault here, at the end of the day, a 2 year old child suffered a horrific death, and his father witnessed his demise. His parents have to go home with their 4 year old daughter and try to continue on with their life and marriage in the wake of everything that's happened, with the death of their child being in the very public eye. That, IMO, is what is most horrifying about this whole story.

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #84)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:28 PM

86. excellent post nt

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #86)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:38 PM

88. Thank you. n/t

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #84)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:38 PM

89. great post. Thank you Butterbean, for putting it so well.

 

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Response to cali (Reply #89)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:46 PM

92. :) You're welcome. n/t

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #84)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:42 PM

102. You are right, Butterbean

So very true.

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Response to Butterbean (Reply #84)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:53 AM

154. Not just a beach party, but BEACH NIGHT! Night time showings of kid movies

to encourage families to bring their kids down to the beach at night.

The blue circle in this pic shows where the screen was placed for the movies:

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #154)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 09:25 PM

177. Good gracious. :( n/t

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:41 PM

90. article from Omaha Nebraska newspaper about the stricken family

http://www.omaha.com/news/nebraska/autopsy-nebraska-boy-killed-in-gator-attack-died-of-drowning/article_057df03a-32ba-11e6-b9b4-bb2a9829631b.html

The Graves family issued a statement Thursday afternoon to ABC News: “Words cannot describe the shock and grief our family is experiencing over the loss of our son. To all of the local authorities and staff who worked tirelessly these past 24 hours, we express our deepest gratitude.”

snip


Nearby, in the Ranch View Estates neighborhood where the family resides, blue ribbons adorned trees and yards to show support.

Neighbors will sell lemonade and cookies Friday to raise money for a memorial. “Lemonade for Lane” will be from noon until 5 p.m. at Elkhorn Valley View Middle School, 1313 S. 208th St. It originally had been planned for the entrance of the neighborhood near 214th and Pacific Streets.

A Mississippi woman who also asked for prayers for the Graves family posted photos on Facebook of her young son, who she said was wading in the same spot of the lagoon less than an hour before Tuesday’s attack.

“It’s a tiny beach, surrounded by pools, water slides, a restaurant and a fire pit,” Jennifer Venditti wrote. “I can’t conceive that an alligator would be in such a busy, small space.”

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:17 PM

95. Everything needs to be hermetically sealed at Disney.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #95)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:25 PM

97. how about signs warning that there are alligators in the lagoons?

 

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Response to cali (Reply #97)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:29 PM

99. Seems simple. There aren't any, is what you are implying?

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Response to Quantess (Reply #99)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:33 PM

101. No. There aren't. That has been widely reported.

 

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Response to cali (Reply #101)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:56 AM

155. Well, there are now. The barn door has been locked now that the horse has left. nt

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:22 PM

96. I've seen the gators at Coronado Springs before.

Last edited Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:47 PM - Edit history (1)

They were always near the bridges. I'm assuming people drop food to them.

Even though there are "beaches" at these lakes/lagoons at Disney, I'm shocked how many people let their kids go in them. The water is disgusting and there are pools and splash pads at every hotel.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:31 PM

100. Thanks for this OP, Cali

It proves our point about Disney's KNOWING negligence.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:43 PM

103. They are going to be sued - and they should be.

Clearly they knew children were wading - or even swimming - in a lagoon that had alligators in it. A 'no swimming' sign does NOT cover their ass.

They act as though it is a fluke and they didn't know there was an alligator in the water. And then they go looking for the culprit - and kill SEVEN alligators in the lagoon!!

It's inexcusable and they deserve to be sued.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #103)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:16 PM

111. No, Disney won't be sued

There will be a large settlement though.

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Response to shanti (Reply #111)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:18 PM

112. that depends on what the parents want to do.

 

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Response to shanti (Reply #111)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:15 PM

126. You're probably right.

They would be wise to offer a big settlement right off.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #103)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:58 AM

156. They will settle big to avoid a lawsuit. nt

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:45 PM

104. More.



CBS This Morning: A closer look at alligators' true threat to people
Published on Jun 16, 2016


After a 2-year-old boy was killed by an alligator at a Disney World resort, we are taking a closer look at the powerful and deadly animals. Omar Villafranca spoke with experts at an east Texas alligator ranch to find out why some are migrating from swamps to the city.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/disney-world-alligator-attack-lethal-powers-of-gators-and-what-prompts-them-to-kill/


http://nypost.com/2016/06/17/disney-ignored-gator-problem-to-keep-high-end-guests-happy-report/

Rich guests were in charge of Disney’s gator policy

By Joe Tacopino
June 17, 2016


Disney World was warned about the alligator problem in its Seven Seas Lagoon but looked the other way because high-paying guests enjoyed feeding the creatures, a report has claimed.

Management had been warned by park staff that guests at the $2,000-a-night waterfront Bora Bora Bungalows were feeding the alligators, but ignored requests to build protective fences, a park insider said, according to TheWrap.

“Disney has known about the problem of guests feeding the alligators well prior to the opening of the bungalows,” the insider told the news site.

“With the opening of the bungalows, it brought the guests that much closer to wildlife. Or, the wildlife that much closer to the guests.”

<>

Also on Thursday, videos emerged on YouTube showing gators at Disney World, some just feet from parkgoers.

http://nypost.com/2016/06/16/disney-world-is-crawling-with-alliggators-see-for-yourself/

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Response to proverbialwisdom (Reply #104)

Sun Jun 19, 2016, 03:15 AM

178. That "Splash Mountain Alligator" is just a little guy--barely 3 to 4 feet, I think. nt

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:10 PM

121. I held a trade show there in 2009, and we were warned late one night about the gators.

One night a bunch of event attendees made their way down to that exact "beach". Security quickly showed up and warned us that there were alligators in the water and that it was not safe. They did not have to say it twice.

The park management has known for years they had a problem. It was only a matter of time before someone was going to be attacked.

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Response to BadGimp (Reply #121)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:47 PM

133. You tell a parent there's gators in that water and kids WON'T be in it.

Plain and simple.

Disney knew of the danger and failed to act. Gross negligence.

My family is going in August, different resort but one with a "beach"; my kids will know to expect an epic spanking if they put a toe in that sand, let alone that water. And I don't spank.

I am not Florida naive, but I never even thought of alligators at Disney before. You get lulled into thinking it's a completely controlled environment. I never let my kids in the water because of the amoeba.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #133)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:28 AM

144. The whole reason people go to Disney instead of a state park or national forest

with their children is because it's supposed to be a safe, controlled environment, where all the risks are just pretend.

I'd have never dreamed that they could be inviting people down to the shore for "Beach night," and that they would have lounge chairs and tables a few feet from their man-made lagoon -- and that that lagoon might contain real, live, alligators.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #144)

Sun Jun 19, 2016, 05:45 PM

183. +1. So obvious.

 

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:42 PM

132. I was at DW last December

at Port Orleans Riverside and there was water all around because the theme is a riverboat port and dock. Our room even had a fold-down bed which had a painting of an alligator on it when it was folded up.

There were NO signs about alligators ( although there were no places that I saw where guests could go up to the water.). Still, there were places where a gator could have crawled out of the water and been near guests.

Amazingly, I read a guide book about DW and Orlando and there were NO mentions of the dangers of alligators. We naively walked around the river area early in the morning and late at night and never once thought about alligators. No employee ever mentioned it either and there were no signs. Our room had brochures about various entertainment possibilities but nothing about gators.

I don't think it is right to blame tourists from other parts of the country who have never been to Florida and who were given no information about the local habitat. You can still have a good time while taking realistic precautions.

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Response to Jubilant18 (Reply #132)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:05 AM

157. + a brazillion. I am appalled by the posts sneering at the "stupidity" of out of staters

for not realizing that any body of fresh (or even brackish) water in Florida will inevitably have gators, or that "No Swimming" implies the risk of a gator attack. Who would even think of that unless they were from Florida?

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Response to cali (Original post)

Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:17 PM

139. No one is lawyered up like the Mouse.

The family won't be able to find an attorney in the state that is not already a client.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #139)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:06 AM

158. With all this publicity they won't need to. Disney will offer a large settlement up front--

with a gag clause, of course.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #158)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 05:19 AM

162. Money may not be all that they want. n./t

 

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:28 AM

159. BIG LAWSUIT COMING !!!

 

As it should. How tragic and irresponsible.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:45 AM

160. Gators, Florida. Common Sense

- They climb, they don't crawl. They can also climb a lot of walls ("fence" walls). (Btw, gators walk, they don't crawl.) They'll climb fences to get into backyard pools.

- Gators are shockingly fast on land for 20-30 feet. You cannot outrun a gator if you're within 30-50 feet of it.

- Gators are in nearly every body of water in this state.

- Gators are silent swimmers. They also blend in with our blackwater rivers and lakes and often can't be seen.

- It's illegal to feed them, but idiots do...and sometimes lose their lives because of it.

- NASA has gator-proof fencing around certain areas. It's high and curves outward toward the top. (You can Google something like NASA gator fencing and find pictures.)

- This is mating and nesting season, making gators restless and more hungry.

- Gators are treated like curiosities and commodities here, making humans forget how dangerous they can be in the wild. Even miniature golf courses often have captive baby gators that people can pay to feed from a bamboo pole. These babies come from a variety of captive-gator facilities that need to get rid of their "excess". The shows and displays of gators, "gator wrestling", and other so-called demonstrations are, in fact, cruel and add to the objectification of gators rather than promoting respect.

- Gators aside, no small child should be allowed to be in any water without an adult holding his/her hand. This is simple water safety and common sense. A "No Swimming" sign seems to mean different things to different people. I wouldn't let my child put so much as a toe in water that had a sign forbidding swimming, but I don't think it's completely unreasonable for someone to assume it's the water itself that is unhealthy (bacteria, amoeba, etc.) and that wading is okay.

- Disney has always known about the gators. That manmade "lake" is connected to natural waterways.

- Gators can and do travel great distances and males are territorial, so they're on the move to create their own territories. As their habitat shrinks, the "problem" of gators increases and so we have licensed trappers and hunters because they've bounced back very well from their endangered status.

- The gator is not at fault. That kind of thinking is bizarre.

- There are millions of gators in Florida alone. (They're all over the southeast US.)

- It would be impossible for Disney to kill all the gators on the thousands of acres that comprise their Florida property. (Removing them is a preposterous notion.)

- Disney should've had warning signs up long ago. And by "long ago", I mean from the day they opened in 1971.

- Gators have proliferated dramatically in the last 10 years or so. The reasons are complex and many. I swam in lakes with gators in them when I was a child, but they stayed away from us. We had no fear, but we had respect. They don't like us any more than we like them. But I wouldn't put my toe in any fresh water or brackish water now, except for our many springs. They are losing habitat at a rate that is dangerous to them as well as the environment in general. When wild animals lose habitat, they start to panic. (Wouldn't you?)

- Please don't come to Florida and feed gators, pick sea oats, or throw your trash on our roads and beaches. And do not mess with our manatees in any way! If you come here, don't check your common sense at the state line. Educate yourself a little bit about what you'll find here and treat our home the way you'd want us to treat your home. Seriously...disengage from your phones, tablets, etc., and be present. Reasonable diligence will let you enjoy your visit safely and respectfully. Oh, and yes, we have lots and lots of sharks, too. And snakes and venomous spiders. Our Florida Black Bear is generally timid and shy unless startled or it's a mother with cubs. They, too, are running out of habitat and are seen more frequently in populated areas these days.

- And watch your children! This may be "paradise" but bad shit happens.

(For the record, I oppose hunting and captivity. I'm just stating facts.)

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 05:23 AM

163. Disney's gonna get sued so bad their lawyers are going to need lawyers... n/t

 

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:26 AM

166. Yeah, see, the world is full of animals, they live here too.

 

The world is not child-safe. If your kid wants to go swimming take him to the pool.

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Response to Jester Messiah (Reply #166)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:16 PM

172. you see, this is Disney World. They didn't even post signs warning not to feed

 

the alligators. This isn't the everglades or Ding Darling.

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Response to cali (Reply #172)

Sat Jun 18, 2016, 06:30 PM

174. I don't think the animals who have lived there for millenia got the memo.

 

People maybe ought to look after their kids a bit better, just in case.

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Response to Jester Messiah (Reply #174)

Mon Jun 20, 2016, 01:51 AM

186. Maybe Disney shouldn't have been threatening to confiscate cameras

when guests tried to take photos of alligators on their property.

Then the alligators might have been publicized before a toddler was killed, not after.

Here are photos showing how innocuous this man-made "lagoon" would have looked to a family from Nebraska.

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/mom-shares-pics-of-son-playing-where-gator-later-killed-lane-graves-w210462

And this links to the report that Disney has been preventing its guests from taking photos of the intruding alligators.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027933796

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Response to Jester Messiah (Reply #166)

Mon Jun 20, 2016, 01:47 AM

185. If you want your child to be safe vacationing, Disney resorts have always been

promoted as a safe place to do that -- safer, for example, than camping at a state park or national forest.

Now it turns out that may not be true; because at least the state parks post signs warning of the dangers. Disney's been covering them up.

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