Large capacity magazines

[hollowdweller]

Why not just limit them rather than assault weapons?

I think a good start would be to totally bypass the second amendment argument and limit them since they make mass shooting easier.

It seems like most mass shooters are not really gun collectors or avid shooters. They usually get their guns before they do their crime.

So why not set a limit on the number of rounds a clip will hold that is sold with the gun??

Then if you want to buy a clip that holds more they have a serial number and you have to either pass an intensive background check or pay a large tax on it or both. Also put like a long waiting period on the purchase of clips like 6 months.

Clips currently in circulation would be exempted.

That totally bypasses paranoia about gun confiscation but would radically cut down on the ability of somebody to go out, buy a bunch of guns and go do a mass shooting.

[yeoman6987]

21. We'll be lucky to get no fly no gun

Our time to get some things passed with gun control was the 70 or 40 days or whatever number we had when the president was elected and we had all 3 chambers and filibuster proof majority. Now before everyone says we didn't have time. Really? The tragedy happened last ey Sunday morning and bills are being voted on Monday. 8 days!!!!! No time. Lol.

[Corporate666]

51. Let's hope we DON'T get no-fly/no-gun

People are OK with the government putting a citizen on an arbitrary list that they are not notified they are on, have no due process to be put on or removed from, and which eliminates Constitutionally protected rights?

Think it through.

Imagine Trump is President and he manages to get a law passed under some sort of hate speech rationale allowing the government to create a "political inciter" list, and if you're on it, your 1st amendment rights are curtailed and you're not allowed to engage in free speech on the Internet. Oh, and there's no judicial review so you don't get to have a hearing before being put on the list, nor do you get to take the matter to court once you find out you're on the list. And the metrics for what gets you on the list are secret and arbitrary.

[yeoman6987]

54. Trust me. I know and agree

I'm just pointing out the false narrative I hear numerous times on why nothing was done during our time with all 3....except ACA. Honestly we could have done more and we all failed with our inaction on demands during that period.

[Corporate666]

56. I think the biggest problem is that the proposals are always reactionary and useless

I've been reading on here that we should ban the AR-15. That's like banning the Ford F-150 if someone used it to ram into a crowd of people. It just doesn't do any good.

Guns ownership is guaranteed by the Constitution, so effective bans through draconian measures like "bolt action only, one rifle per citizen, 1 year waiting period to buy, monthly inspections" or whatever are just effective bans. It's really no different than what Bush and others tried to do on abortion - like making the woman watch a video and be "counseled" before the procedure, and having a wait period and all that. It's just a way to try to implement an effective ban while smirking and saying "Ban? What ban? You're still allowed to do X!".

That sort of thing will never fly and is what causes gun rights supporters to dig in - because many/most of the proposals aren't about genuinely wanting to stop mass shootings, they're about just trying to do an end-run around the 2nd Amendment.

I think if an honest dialog could take place, effective legislation could be passed. But that would require both sides to agree to give AND take. And that would mean expanding gun rights in some areas while restricting them in others.

I've never in my life heard of anyone on either side proposing such a thing. It's always "we want X and that's that". I doubt there are many gun-control advocates on this site who would be in favor of expanding gun rights in some respects while curbing them in others.

[yeoman6987]

58. So very true.

I miss the days when congress worked together to find sens able solutions. It happened until I believe 1994. After that the crap hit the fan. Back in those days, congress didn't just work 3 days and then run home to their hometown. They'd have dinners, go to the club for a beer or two and discuss things. The GOP is mostly to blame but negotiation is a two way street. Most would rather nothing then half of something I guess. Our congress is dead. I don't see it getting fixed.

[Just reading posts]

2. FYI, there are billions of "large capacity" magazines already in circulation.

That particular genie isn't going back into the bottle.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

6. Yeah, why bother repairing the levee after it breaks?

I swear, you gun folks are shameless with the excuses.

[Just reading posts]

8. KInd of hard to repair the levee when a lake has formed on top of it.

I swear, you gun folks are shameless with the excuses.

Billions of magazines aren't going away. That's not an excuse, it's a fact.

[Major Nikon]

19. There's also billions of grenades out there. We should just say fuck it and make them legal again.

[Duckhunter935]

30. Not in tens of millions of civilian hands

[Major Nikon]

32. Sure there are, just not in this country

Kinda makes you wonder why.

[Marengo]

44. When have grenades been available for purchase on the open market for civilians in the modern era?

[Just reading posts]

38. Legally held in civilian hands in the U.S.?

[Dem2]

20. Ahhh, the gun fondlers "too late now - HAHAHAHA - die all of you!" argument

So just give up trying right?

Nice NRA talking point.

[doc03]

3. One thing magazines currently in circulation probably number into the tens of millions. You can

buy them buy the dozen or hundred at any flea market. There have been thousands of AR-15s and 30 round magazines sold in the last week. Every time something like this happens sales skyrocket.

[Just reading posts]

7. Billions.

There have been thousands of AR-15s and 30 round magazines sold in the last week.

Hundreds of thousands, possibly millions.

[doc03]

10. Wouldn't argue that point, was at Cabelas a couple days ago. You have to draw a number and wait

to buy a gun.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

12. Aren't you proud? nt

[Just reading posts]

37. Not particularly.

[Adrahil]

11. True, but we could prohibit the transfer of them as well.

Have them now? Fine. But no more can be made and you can't sell or buy the old ones.

[DustyJoe]

28. out of the bottle not going back in

you can crank out a mag on a 3d printer in a matter of minutes, all you have to do is wind a wire spring and you can 3d print the form for winding it on the same printer.

[Adrahil]

29. You can also 3D print a machine gun receiver. We still do not allow their unfettered sale. NT

Also, a paper template, a drill, and Dremel can convert an AR-15 lower to accept an auto-sear. Again, it's still illegal to buy a machine gun outside of the NFA process.

I could buy cocaine in about 20 minutes. Still not legal.

[Duckhunter935]

31. You can print and machine recievers

For personal use not for sale

[Adrahil]

33. Correct. But not machine gun receivers.

it's illegal to make a machine gun receiver without the correct licenses.

[Angel Martin]

34. You can also 3D print a machine gun receiver.

this is an additional reason why all of the focus on guns is futile.

[maxsolomon]

36. i printed a 3d printer with my 3d printer

[laundry_queen]

61. lol nt

[Crepuscular]

43. because

of course nothing illegal is ever bought or sold in this country, right?

[Adrahil]

46. Of course it is. We still make it illegal.

By your argument, nothing should ever be illegal, because, duh, people break the law. But we do have laws.

[Straw Man]

59. Weak argument.

Of course it is. We still make it illegal.

By your argument, nothing should ever be illegal, because, duh, people break the law. But we do have laws.

Malum in se vs. malum prohibitum. The former deals with things that are abhorrent in and of themselves and never have a justifiable use: murder, rape, theft, etc. The latter deals with items or practices that had widespread social acceptance but have come to be seen as too problematic to be permitted.

Prohibitionist theory presupposes that society will benefit from a ban on these items or practices, and that this benefit outweighs the loss of individual freedom that the ban entails. A ban that doesn't succeed in removing the item from common use -- such as the Volstead Act, the War on Drugs, or a high-cap magazine ban -- fails on both accounts. It curtails individual freedom and doesn't cure the social ill, because, duh, the law is very easy to break and virtually impossible to enforce.

[Old Codger]

4. Too many

Already out there as other poster says.. also define large capacity most semi-auto handguns can hold 15-17 rounds.

[PoliticAverse]

5. Note that some states currently limit magazine size and the "assault weapon ban"

limited magazines capacity to 10.

[Adrahil]

9. I agree.

The reality is that in order to ban "assault weapons," we would really need to bad semi-auto rifles capable of accepting an external magazine. That won't happen. But I DO think we could maybe get a ban on magazines exceeding 10 rounds.

Exempt existing magazines from possession bans, but prohibit their transfer. One flaw with the old AWB is it allowed the transfer of "pre-ban" magazines.

[SuperDutyTX]

14. traceability

For what it's worth, magazines are not a serialized item, and are sold over the counter. As posters above are pointing out, with literally billions already in the market place, how would you prohibit their transfer?

It would effectively be like passing legislation that says "Henceforth, no Flathead screwdrivers can be manufactured, or transferred between individuals, but can be possessed by individuals". There are billions out there, you don't know where they are, and you can't identify who purchased them in the first place.

[Adrahil]

17. Yes, of course.

There will be a black market in them for some time. But you would NOT see tables of "pre-ban" magazines for sale at gun shows like last time. You would also not have manufacturers do what they did last time and stockpile millions of "pre-ban" mags that would be available through retail outfits at inflated prices. Folks couldn't openly sell that at garage sales. It would not be impossible for a wanna-be mas shooter to get one, but it would be considerably harder. And the supply would dry up over time. We have to start somewhere.

[Travis_0004]

53. I imagine 3d printing them would be easy

During the last ban it was easy to get a few manufacturers to stamp "for law enforcement use only" and the date on the magazine.

With changes in technology, somebody could 3d print a magazine, and just claim it was made before the ban. Nobody would ever really know.

3d printers might be rare today, but its something to consider as they will certainly become a lot more common.

[jmg257]

13. Large cap mags have been restricted in the past, and currently are in several states.

1994 AWB limited new manufactured mags to 10 rnds.
Existing mags were exempt.

NY has passed a similar law to what you propose after sandy hook - 10 round limit (7 round load limit was deemed unconstitutional), on new mags, with no real grandfathering, but w/registration of existing mags (same with expanded-defined assault weapons).

The attempt there is to limit new builds, but to also, through attrition, reduce the existing stock because registered items are not transferable. 1 generation they should be gone.

Problem is only like 5% of the people were estimated to comply. AN unpopular law with little support even from LE, though it is used to push more criminal charges when applicable.

The latest federal AW bill would also grandfather, and specs serial numbered mags with the date on them for distinction.


As other posters have explained, millions and millions exist (some military somewhere uses the same mags).


Your notions are very good - and could limit "impulse" attacks to an extent (although having 6 10 round mags is only slightly better then 3 30 round mags); limit semi-auto or all repeating arms with detachable mags, and limit the capacity of the mags.

How to implement it and enforce it is the devil in the details, IF it gets passed. Having it not struck down as unconstitutional would also be a challenge, but may hold up, as others have.

[Straw Man]

60. Correction.

NY has passed a similar law to what you propose after sandy hook - 10 round limit (7 round load limit was deemed unconstitutional), on new mags, with no real grandfathering, but w/registration of existing mags (same with expanded-defined assault weapons).

The NY SAFE Act did not allow grandfathering and registration of existing 10+ mags, except for curio & relic magazines. The law is confusingly worded, and no one is sure exactly what is legal and what isn't. If you call the state police, they tell you that they "don't give legal advice."

See if you can decipher this:

A FEEDING DEVICE THAT IS A CURIO OR RELIC IS DEFINED AS A DEVICE THAT (I)WAS MANUFACTURED AT LEAST FIFTY YEARS PRIOR TO THE CURRENT DATE, (II) IS ONLY CAPABLE OF BEING USED EXCLUSIVELY IN A FIREARM, RIFLE, OR SHOTGUN THAT WAS MANUFACTURED AT LEAST FIFTY YEARS PRIOR TO THE CURRENT DATE, BUT NOT INCLUDING REPLICAS THEREOF.

There is grandfathering and registration of currently-owned "assault weapons." A lot of people chose instead to render their ARs, etc., compliant by adding weirdo non-pistol-grip stocks, fixed magazines, etc. The idea is that they don't trust the state not to one day use registration lists for confiscation.

[jmg257]

63. The way I read the relic mags would be say a 15rounder for M1 carbine...nice relic, but they make

new M1s so they would be banned.

Thanks for the correction - it seems the relic mags are what may be registered.

[Straw Man]

64. It has been interpreted many different ways.

For example, some people think you can have a relic 15-round M1 carbine mag, but only if you have a relic carbine. You could have a newer carbine too, but you couldn't put the old mag in the new carbine.

I know that sounds crazy, but I've had people tell me that. And as I said, the state police are no help. They "don't give legal advice."

I even tried calling the Attorney General's office once. I didn't get through.

[jmg257]

65. I wouldn't take chances...original $1500 S'G' with a pair of original 70yr old SG mags...

lets just dump the mags because, SAFE!!

[aikoaiko]

15. You have a point. The thing about AR15 that makes them useful to mass shooters is their

ability to accept detachable "high" capacity magazines. This feature is also useful to people who think about self-defense in really bad situations. But you have to remember that the VATech shooter massacre (now the 2nd highest mortality mass shooting) used handguns with 10 and 15 round magazines.

Probably the "solution" is fixed magazines with a decent capacity like 20, but detachable magazines are really hard to give up.

[doc03]

22. I was never much into deer hunting myself but my dad killed many of them

with a bolt action rifle that held like 4 or 5 rounds. The state of Ohio limits you to 3 rounds for deer hunting. Just why does anyone have to have a 30 round magazine to hunt with? If you target shoot you squeeze off one round at a time, why do they have to have a 30 round magazine?

[aikoaiko]

23. You don't need a 30-round mag to hunt. A five round mag in a AR will do fine.

In terms of recreational and competitive shooting switching magazine is not fun or interesting.

30-round mags are nice to have in a self-defense situation where there is more on assailant. When you look at police, who have reasonable training, they miss a lot when they are in a shootout.

If the 2nd Amendment means anything, it means that if the state required you to show for a militia you could bring your guns and fight. That would include a decent capacity magazine.

30 round mags are close to optimal with most ARs. Fewer rounds per mag hinder your ability to stay in the fight. More rounds per mag tend to make unstable and unreliable magazines that jam.

[doc03]

24. You need a 30 round magazine for self defence? How about a 12 ga.

with 5 rounds? At the time the 2nd Amendment was written guns held one round. How many times in the last 200 hundred years has
that militia been called out?

[aikoaiko]

26. I'd much prefer an AR for accuracy and terminal ballistics than a shotgun in most situations.

In most situations you wouldn't need a 30-round mag, but I could see where it might be helpful. Civilian police typically use 30-round magazines for the same reason -- even when they are apprehending an individual.

At the time of the 2nd Amendment, there were rifles that that shot 20 rounds without reloading.
See Girandoni air rifle

I don't know how many times the state has called upon militia members to show up with arms, but I do know that provisions for an unorganized militia still exist in federal code,

10 U.S. Code § 311 - Militia: composition and classes
US Code
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

[Marengo]

45. A knowledgable poster may be along shortly to inform you a Daisy BB rifle is more effective.

[doc03]

47. In what kind of circumstances would you require AR-15s

accuracy over a 12ga for home defense. What are you going to have a shootout with an army surrounding your home, come on get real.
Probably 99 times out of a 100 you would have one or two intruders at close range and if you used an AR-15 you would run the risk of
shooting through a wall and killing someone else in your family or a neighbor. When has this civilian militia ever been called up since the revolution? Typical NRA straw man response about some rare gun that could fire more than one shot.

[Travis_0004]

55. An AR-15 is not going to penetrate the brick of my house, then go through by neighbors house

I suppose a bullet could go out a window and through another window, but a shotgun will do that as well. With a shotgun you have 9 pellets that spread quite a bit, so if you ended up going out a window, you are more likely to have a shotgun go into your neighbors window (of course distance matters).

i live on 20 acres. I have 0 concerns about a shot fired in my house going into a neighbors house.

[Corporate666]

52. Guns are not just for hunting and target shooting

Owning a gun for defense is perfectly legitimate. And a 3-round bolt action rifle would be just about useless for defense.

[Dem2]

16. This is common sense

SAFE law does this and even though people can get around it, if it was the law of the entire nation, eventually, and with incentives to do so (3 for 1 trade-in old 30 rnd magazines for 3 10 rnd magazines say), we could eventually make them harder to find - especially for people who are flaky outsiders in our society whereas even a street-wise person wouldn't want to risk the transaction. Certainly we need to start restricting capacity - better sooner than later.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

18. Of course it's common sense. Except for the people who lack it.

See upthread.

[Angel Martin]

35. "...make them harder to find - especially for people who are flaky outsiders in our society ..."

you mean like this guy ?

http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/tommy-mair-jo-cox-shooting-suspect-name-britain-first-brexit-eu-jeremy-corbyn-husband-brendan/

[Lee-Lee]

25. You can make a magazine on a 3D printer now

Every part but the spring so you print a form that spring wire is wound around to make the spring.

And within a few years they expect 3D printers in half of US homes.

20 years ago it took a lot of tooling and skills to make your own magazine, so a ban while silly could be enforced at the manufactures level. Technology has changed that.

Quite literally all a ban would do is cause a person who wants to inflict harm to spend a few more dollars for a 3D printer.

[Duckhunter935]

27. Magazines are metal or plastic boxes

Billions in circulation and 3d printable

[mwrguy]

39. the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 limited magazine size to 10 rounds

[Duckhunter935]

40. And grandfathered the billions out there

They could still be sold and transferred

[Travis_0004]

57. Yup. I think AR mags were 30-50 bucks

I'm not sure that is going to stop a suicidal killer.

Some handgun mags were 100+. Especially those that were released in 1992-1993. There just wasn't much supply of those out there. You could still get glock mags pretty cheap.

[Just reading posts]

42. Kind of. Normal capacity magazines were legal to sell if they were made prior to 1994.

I remember seeing 17 round Glock magazines selling for $120 instead of their previous price of $20. Thankfully the law expired in 2004.

[jmowreader]

41. About as good as we're going to get is...

Set the maximum magazine capacity to whatever Jane's Infantry Weapons says the "standard" mag for the gun yours is based on, end online ammo sales, require a state-issued identification card (this would keep the Ammon Bundys of the world from buying ammo at gun stores because sovereign citizens refuse to carry state-issued ID) for the purchase of ammo, and have some mechanism in place to have the cops visit you if you try buying more than a "reasonable" amount without having an explanation. Set "reasonable" to one GI ammo can every four months, which is plenty for people who like to target shoot for fun. If you're a competitive shooter you can provide your membership number in the shooting association you belong to and get all the ammo you want. And get rid of those fucking exploding targets!

I hate to sound defeatist but this particular genie isn't going back in the bottle no matter how hard we try.

[ileus]

48. Truthfully I wouldn't mind that...maybe a 20 round limit.

My favorite AR mag is 20 rounders, and my HD pistol holds 19.

[Corporate666]

49. The guy DID pass extensive background checks

and if existing magazines are exempted, what's to stop someone just buying one of those?

It seems it would simply impose a 6-month waiting period on honest, law-abiding gun owners for no reason.


And let's be honest... anyone who knows about guns knows it's simple to swap out a magazine really quickly. Human nature is such that, despite what online Rambo's think, if you're in a place where shooting is going on, you go for cover. People just don't rush the shooter, even when the shooting stops. They run and they hide.

People think if a shooter was limited to a small number of bullets, it would allow the people to charge and take her down when the shooting stopped. The shooters DO go through multiple magazines, and people don't charge them and take them down.

So why implement a law that limits the freedoms of law abiding Americans but does nothing to stop mass shootings?

[HuckleB]

50. First, we have to get out the vote, and get NRA toadies out of DC.

[Fairgo]

62. Guns and monsters

I walk the streets of Sydney, stripped of my god-given american right to be a self styled and well armed militia of one. This heavy burden allows civilisation to flourish, unimpeded by the retrograde logic of the Devolutionists who are wont to cower in fear of each other.

Americans at home have the right to be armed to the teeth and engaged in a cold war with every shadow they pass on the streets.

Our corporate masters chuckle. The profit from our fear seems boundless. They gleefully sell the bullets, we eagerly wear them like chains and beg for more. For every 50 round magazine you buy, you worry that your enemy, your neighbour, will buy two. It's an arms race at the shopping mall. The beauty of unbridled capitalism is the chase to the bottom of your wallet as you try to buy freedom from fear. The gun market trades in stacks of blood money. Business is booming. Gun frenzied fear funds the inverted rise of the totalitarian state, for in the end those with guns terrorise those who refuse to play army. Fear and loathing and isolation become the proxy for community. A marketplace of death replaces the public commons. Ennui and despair settles over a nation set against itself, immobilised, "...like a patient etherised upon the table". And so democracy has become hollowed out, starts to crumble around the edges, and beneath the shell, the face of Donald Trump leers up from the slab.

There is a science we can use to describe our wicked problem with guns. There would be interventions forthcoming from a rationale analysis. But the US is not rational. It is a gun junky cultural more likely to OD in the gutter of fascism than reclaim its virtue. Uncle Sam will have to hit rock bottom before recovery can begin.

But will it be too late? The rest of the world laughs nervously at the garish symptoms of US decay, and worries about the hell-bent trajectory of our self-destruction. US exceptionalism is based on extortion at a biospheric level with the world economy in one bloody fist, and the largest arsenal of death every conceived by sentient creatures pointed directly at the head of very mother and child on the planet. You see, our obsession with guns and death is in the bones. And apparently we want it for the world.

People used to ask, "Why did you come to Australia?" They were shocked to hear that I saw Australia as the land of opportunity. They do not ask any more, but offer their embarrassed consolation. I never meant to become a refugee. Seeing Leviathan from a safe shore...I ask, can you give me sanctuary?