Roll Call: Compromise Gun Proposal Gains Bipartisan Support, Raises White House Concerns

[aikoaiko]

This could work. It has an appeals process like Cronyn's amendment, but more time for authorities to make their case.

https://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/compromise-guns-legislation-released-tuesday

After the Senate's failure to adopt gun control legislation , Sen. Susan Collins and a bipartisan coalition Tuesday announced a compromise proposal to bar some terror suspects from buying guns.

But the White House and Justice Department are holding off on backing the measure until they study its provisions. And one leading Democrat, New York Sen. Charles E. Schumer, said there are several key flaws that would need to be fixed before the proposal moves forward.

[Eric J in MN]

1. It would be better to restore the Assault Weapons ban

...then to try to make this no-guns-for-suspected-terrorists idea work.

In that article, the FBI says they don't want suspected terrorists to know they're suspected. I don't see how this could be implemented without them knowing.

[aikoaiko]

2. The AWB was useless and did not accomplish its goals

For example, CT had a AWB where the Lanza rifle was completely legal. The AWB did nothing to prevent the Sandy Hook massacre.

Also this legislation has an exemption for suspected terrorists who they don't want to inform.

[Eric J in MN]

3. What happens under the exemption?

Does the suspected terrorist get the gun to avoid tipping him off?

Is he told he can't have a gun by not why?

[Hoyt]

4. Easy enough to correct -- ban semi-autos period. Don't try to write legislation that coddles gunners

[zipplewrath]

5. Magazine limit

Basically, prevent weapons that can shoot more than three bullets without reloading. Okay, maybe 6. I'll negotiate up to say 9. But target practice and hunting will do just fine. If you are trying to kill more quickly than that, we'll really need to talk.

Yeah, I know, easy to get around. But these yahoos don't take that kinda time and don't really put out that kinda effort.

[Hoyt]

6. I agree, although not sure I'd compromise with as many as 9. I'd prefer Australia's 1996 law.

[zipplewrath]

11. Whatever

With the Glock holding a typical 17 and upwards of 33, anything in single digits is gonna be a huge improvement.

[Duckhunter935]

29. You going to confiscate

The billions out in circulation. You do realize how easy it is to 3D print them now, right?

[zipplewrath]

44. The guns or the magazines?

I don't care about the magazines if the guns can't use ,'em. Three-d printing will ultimately make any thing illegal easily possible. The beauty about the vast majority of these idiots is that they are too lazy to actually do that.

[aikoaiko]

7. Lol. Talk about pie in the sky. No one on the national level is even considering it

But please proceed.

[Just reading posts]

20. Apparently talking about the prospect of confiscating over half the guns in America give some here

warm fuzzies.

As you point out, it's never going to happen.

[mwrguy]

9. Absolutely

[roamer65]

12. Semi-automatics should definitely be severely restricted.

A ban may be hard to get, but the process to get a semi-auto should be long and difficult.

[Hoyt]

13. I'm fine with that. Restrictions will cool the gun market and shut down a lot of gun profiteers

Operations.

[sir pball]

16. Hey dude, at least you're being honest.

No halfass "AWB" shit, craft proper restrictions with proper parameters - I can disagree with an idea but still realize it's actually well thought out and workable.

Btw, that proposal is fine by me - I'd likely sell my lone semiauto rifle beforehand, but even if I had to settle for the buyback price, it would easily pay for building my two big bolt-actions into the finely crafted precision rifles they deserve. And no, there wouldn't be pistol grips or detachable mags to Inflame The Humors, but they WOULD be Cerakoted olive drab and sage green, not wood and blued steel. If that's OK with you.

[Hoyt]

17. I'm cool with bolt and lever actions, and six shooter pistols WHEN LEFT AT HOME

except hunting, which few gunners actually do if we are talking game. I think there should be a limit on number just to avoid gun pollution and help wean the severely addicted off the dang things.

[sir pball]

18. Oh, I leave all mine at home.

Rifles are just provocative to carry and I don't need a handgun in public.

I like a bolt-action that's absolutely weatherproof, can be shot well in all conditions, and will carry enough energy to take game at long range. A synthetic, adjustable stock and a durable scope with easy adjustments, i.e. knobs with clear markings and crosshairs with dots for different ranges...it's ok since I want my rifles done up in olive drab and sage green instead of black, right?

[Hoyt]

21. If you leave them at home, don't practice to be a sniper, have bolt actions and only a few, don't

care what color/finish gets you all excited.

[sir pball]

23. Where's the line at practicing "sniping"?

Not that I really care about your opinion, tbh, but I'm curious - I've taught myself to shoot pretty well, learned all the stuff about drop, doping the wind, elevation, temperature changes, all the myriad variables that go into hitting either a piece of paper or a game animal at any reasonable range in any reasonable weather. I even have mil-dot scopes on all my rifles so I can adjust properly (before you get excited - "mil" means "milliradians" not "military&quot .

You consider that "sniper practice"? I mean, the three concepts here (target, hunting, sniping) are really just a matter of what's downrange.

Anyway, I think the prettiest rifle I own by far is my Husqvarna 243, blued steel and oiled walnut with an ebony forecap. Practical finishes are functional, but not particularly beautiful.

[Hoyt]

25. It's "sniping" if you envision using it in riots or disasters, shooting some kid running

off with a worthless piece of your property, etc.

[Press Virginia]

28. No. It's shooting a paper target

[Press Virginia]

27. Rifles were used in 248 murders which is a drop

from over 300 5 years prior.

Obviously the scary looking rifles aren't the weapon of choice for murderers

[Hoyt]

30. But rifles, particularly those that get gunners' hormones flowing (AR15s), dominated the gun market.

That market needs to be cooled down because there are too many gunz in this country, not to mention unstable gun owners.

[Press Virginia]

31. And? 248 murders by rifles...not just AR types, all rifles

[Hoyt]

33. But this is what we have running around with the dang things (or planning terrorist/hate acts):

?resize=300%2C168



?w=490&h=357

[Press Virginia]

34. So? Unless they're murdering people, they aren't the problem

[Hoyt]

35. Sorry, when people pollute our society with guns and hatred, it's as bad, maybe worse, than air,

water pollution. It's not OK, sorry.

[Press Virginia]

36. How is your hatred of gun owners better than their hatred of gun controllers?

you stand on dead bodies to proclaim some moral authority in the debate while ignoring facts that contradict your argument.

[karadax]

8. It's not too bad of a compromise.

Justice also raised concerns about the appeals process. Schumer said Collins' proposal would have the court of appeals decide in 14 days whether someone should be granted a gun, which Schumer argued was "virtually impossible if you know how courts of appeals work."

The legislation that the NRA thought was okay only wanted a 3 day process in which to deny / approve an individual's purchase of a gun. 14 vs 3? Likely we will see 7 days. You want the decision to be fast but as informed as possible.

I also wonder if they could funnel these requests through the FISA courts to expedite it. It could fall under FBI / National Security jurisdiction.

[Lee-Lee]

10. I imagine most people with evil intent won't appeal anyway

If your trying to buy a gun and get blocked and told they are on to you showing up to Federal Court to argue your case is probably not very high on your list of things to do.

That said, I hope they actually follow up and investigate these denials. More than 70,000 felons, person with mental history and others get stopped by background checks ever year yet less than 1000 even get investigated and less than 100 get prosecuted. They can't keep that up with these cases too.

[HereSince1628]

24. NICS data suggests there is nothing near parity in interception and denial between those groups

With persons prohibited for other-than-criminal reasons being many times smaller than that for persons with records of felonies and serious misdemeanors (those that resulted in a sentence of a year or more in prison). The rate was something like 365 to 14, as suggested in this doc https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/222677.pdf

That would suggest a very much small number of persons who had been denied because they had been 'adjudicated dangerous to self or others', 'subjected to involuntary institutionalization', or 'had plead not-guilty using a mental health defense'. In the study referenced above the rate of denials for criminal records suggested is 26 times the rate of denial for all non-criminal reasons and mental health reasons is only a part of the non-criminal denials.

If you've got a link for recent NICS effectiveness that gives a good breakdown by category of prohibited persons trying to purchase who were detected via NICS I'd be much interested in it.

Thanks.

[X_Digger]

14. Doubt it'll pass.

It's still removing a right without due process.

If your name were stricken from the voting rolls, but you didn't know about it until you tried to vote, and then you had to appeal your removal in order for your vote to count, folks would be going ape shit.

But because it's a right that some folks wish didn't exist, they're okay with removing it and fuck due process later.

[Gabi Hayes]

15. how many guns would be left if they stopped ALL manufacture of ALL guns?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/05/guns-in-the-united-states-one-for-every-man-woman-and-child-and-then-some/



the only solution will never happen, except when the goals of the 1%-led military/prison/industrial state are finally achieved:

complete confiscation under totalitarian rule>>>>gotta have some place for all those people who've been offshored and automated out of their jobs



fear of terror will allow the eventual end to private gun ownership, at great cost because the gun loons will not give up easily and will finally have a chance to have their weapons pried from their cold, dead hands

how many more Orlandos will it take?

hard to tell, but it WILL happen, somewhere down the road.

[Just reading posts]

19. About half a billion in the US, give or take. But in any case, there are 15 million new ones being

made or imported every year....and that number is only going up.

25 years from now, there will probably be a billion guns in the US.

[MH1]

37. And yet there are kids with not enough to eat,

or parents claiming that they need to buy soda for the kid to drink because that's all they can afford.




Too poor to eat well, peeling lead paint in the house, lead in the water ... and armed to the teeth. What a great society to look forward to.

[Just reading posts]

38. Income inequality is a rather larger issue. The same point could be made about many other consumer

products.

[MH1]

39. Yes. But most other consumer products don't become more lethal

when combined with the effects of childhood lead ingestion. Or when combined with a lifelong resentment over oppression and discrimination.

[Just reading posts]

40. Most consumer products aren't Constitutionally protected.

Some gun control proposals (disagree with them though I may) will pass Constitutional muster in the unlikely event that they pass at the national level. Other, more extreme ones being bandied about here (Ban all guns! Tax ammo at $5,000 a bullet!) would be laughed out of court, not that they'd even get that far in the first place

[MH1]

41. Also true, but keep in mind the Constitution is amendable.

We should think first of what is the right policy, then how to get there, possibly (probably) in incremental steps. When discussing what is the right policy to have, I am not really interested in the current state of a changeable document.

But anyway the point of my post that started this subthread, is how sad and ironic it is that we are awash in guns, not generally cheap items, and yet can't feed our kids or keep them safe from poisons. That's at the same time an indictment of our society, and a warning about what is to come from that society.

[Just reading posts]

42. Sure...but doing so is non-trivial, to say the least. When I see calls for the abolishment of

the 2nd Amendment made in (apparently) all seriousness, all I can think is, "You go right ahead and do that. Be sure to get back to us with a progress report in a few decades".

The chance of the 2nd being repealed or modified in the foreseeable future is nil.

[Hoyt]

22. Problem is, every decade we do nothing 100 million guns are manufactured for yahoo consumption.

[Press Virginia]

26. That's a lot of lazy guns...especially the rifles

[Just reading posts]

32. Including imports, the number will probably be closer to 200 million.

[aikoaiko]

43. This amendment is still alive.

Amendment Number: S.Amdt. 4859 to S.Amdt. 4858 to H.R. 2578 (Commerce, Justice, Science, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2016)

Statement of Purpose: To authorize the Attorney General to delay or deny the transfer of firearms and explosives and issuance of Federal firearms and explosives licenses and permits to known or suspected terrorists.

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