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King_David

(14,851 posts)
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 06:52 PM Jun 2016

Omar Mateen and the convenient myth of the violent, self-hating ‘closet homosexual’


In the wake of the deadliest mass shooting in modern US history, reports are surfacing that the Orlando shooter, Omar Mateen, was gay—or, at least, struggled with his sexuality and frequented gay clubs, with accounts on gay hook-up apps like Grindr. Some people have made the (good, valid, necessary) point that this complicates the mainstream media’s narrative that Mateen was motivated by his allegiance to “radical Islam”, and they have criticised the knee-jerk racism and xenophobia present in much of the mainstream media after the attack.

Unfortunately, many people have also declared that Mateen was clearly a “closet homosexual”, and that his shooting was fuelled by psychotic self-hatred and mental illness. Comments sections are teeming with announcements like, “I called it!!”, “that was obvious”, “he’s clearly mentally ill” and “the biggest homophobes are always closet gays”.

There are multiple problems with this line of reasoning. To begin with, let’s get a quick terminological point out of the way: we should talk about gay people, not “gays” and “homosexuals”, unless we want to dehumanise LGBT people by conflating their entire identities with their sexuality. Despite the (sometimes understandable) feeling that “language policing” has proliferated out of control in these “PC times”, the words we use to describe each other are the most basic foundation for how we understand and treat each other. In other words, language matters.

Moreover, these glib, self-congratulatory sentiments betray a harmful misunderstanding of both mental illness and sexuality, each of which can be dealt with in turn.




http://thespinoff.co.nz/media/20-06-2016/omar-mateen-and-the-convenient-myth-of-the-violent-self-hating-closet-homosexual/


31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Omar Mateen and the convenient myth of the violent, self-hating ‘closet homosexual’ (Original Post) King_David Jun 2016 OP
Recommended. This type of blaming is much too simple. guillaumeb Jun 2016 #1
The idea that self-loathing was at the core of Mateen's violence is NOT homophobic! markpkessinger Jun 2016 #5
I was not addressing the motivation for the violence. guillaumeb Jun 2016 #30
He clearly had mental problems. They will manifest themselves in whatever the person pursues. spud_demon Jun 2016 #2
Has anyone stepped forward to claim that they had a sexual relationship with him? -n/t lapfog_1 Jun 2016 #3
Is having had a sexual relationship with another man a requirement of being gay? markpkessinger Jun 2016 #7
no lapfog_1 Jun 2016 #10
Yes; today on Univision BeyondGeography Jun 2016 #9
This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Jun 2016 #23
The question was has someone claiming a relationship stepped forward BeyondGeography Jun 2016 #24
Perhaps so, and perhaps this is an elaborate concoction . . . MousePlayingDaffodil Jun 2016 #31
Yes vdogg Jun 2016 #27
THANK YOU!!! This has been driving me up the wall all week. LostOne4Ever Jun 2016 #4
This isn't "blaming the victims" . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #8
What this is about is combating a homophobic meme that all homophobes are secretly gay LostOne4Ever Jun 2016 #13
Where did I or anyone suggest that "alll homophobes are secretly gay?" n/t markpkessinger Jun 2016 #14
Where did I say that you suggested it? LostOne4Ever Jun 2016 #17
The assertion that all homophobes are secretly gay has always annoyed me too. Chemisse Jun 2016 #20
Once again demonstrating why you are an excellent ally! Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #22
Yes, it was a product of homophobia and heterosexism . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #15
On all of that, we can agree. nt LostOne4Ever Jun 2016 #18
DU is full of people with bias against both (deleted) and (deleted) along with strong bias in favor Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #6
This is no different than any other violent event. Takket Jun 2016 #11
Well said, although I think your faith in the FBI to provide an objective . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #16
My response to this thread . . . markpkessinger Jun 2016 #12
People are trying to examine reasons why someone would kill a lot of people IronLionZion Jun 2016 #19
Brava! Behind the Aegis Jun 2016 #21
It never fails as a dismissive distancing tactic, Dalziel3979 Jun 2016 #25
Men become violent for being "turned down" often My Good Babushka Jun 2016 #26
... vdogg Jun 2016 #28
... LostOne4Ever Jun 2016 #29

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
1. Recommended. This type of blaming is much too simple.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 07:07 PM
Jun 2016

I often argue at DU against Islamophobia, but substituting homophobia is just as bad.

Mateen clearly had psychological issues. That is, or should be, the focus. Access to mental health care is also an issue.

If healthcare was as accessible and available as guns this incident may not have happened.

markpkessinger

(8,395 posts)
5. The idea that self-loathing was at the core of Mateen's violence is NOT homophobic!
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 07:50 PM
Jun 2016

This kind of self-loathing is not a product of being gay, per se, but is a product, for some, of being gay in a repressive, hetero-normative culture.

And for the record -- I am a gay man, who has been out and proud for 36 years!

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
30. I was not addressing the motivation for the violence.
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 11:22 AM
Jun 2016

Violent people are violent for a variety of reasons. Some for religious or political ideology, some for personal reasons.

But just as some people like to blame religion for violence done by violent people, some might attempt in this case to blame sexuality.

 

spud_demon

(76 posts)
2. He clearly had mental problems. They will manifest themselves in whatever the person pursues.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 07:08 PM
Jun 2016

Including sex.

markpkessinger

(8,395 posts)
7. Is having had a sexual relationship with another man a requirement of being gay?
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 08:00 PM
Jun 2016

Or with a woman a requirement of being heterosexual?

Since when?

Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #9)

BeyondGeography

(39,370 posts)
24. The question was has someone claiming a relationship stepped forward
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 06:25 AM
Jun 2016

The answer is yes.

It's an ongoing investigation. One thing is clear to me at least: this was not random killing. The attacker targeted specific groups of people. It's worth trying to understand why.

31. Perhaps so, and perhaps this is an elaborate concoction . . .
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 11:51 AM
Jun 2016

Nevertheless, the Daily Mail, reporting on the Univision interview, asserts the following:

"Their first date, he said, was at a bar in Orlando called Parliament. 'It was like any other date,' he recounts.

"Every other meeting was at the city's Ambassador hotel, where they met 15 to 20 times between October and December 2015.

"Univision said a representative for the hotel confirmed that Omar Mateen was a familiar face, and that he stayed at the hotel at least 63 times last year.

"The FBI has obtained CCTV footage from the hotel, Univision reports."

* * * *

These are straightforward factual claims -- i.e., that Mateen and his alleged lover patronized a particular hotel in Orlando; that said hotel "confirmed" to Univision that Mateen had indeed been a frequent guest; and that the FBI took the assertion seriously enough to "obtain[] CCTV footage" from the hotel.

Perhaps all of this is completely made up. Who knows? And there is undoubtedly a lot of agenda-driving going on here. I, for one, would simply like to know where the truth lies.



LostOne4Ever

(9,288 posts)
4. THANK YOU!!! This has been driving me up the wall all week.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 07:10 PM
Jun 2016

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]The speed and willingness some people are willing to blame gay people for violence against gay people has been making me sick.

And speed that some have clung to the weak evidence used to fuel this homophobic meme, pure speculation and unnamed sources, is only further proof how bad this meme truly has become.

Not only that, but the way people want to blame this on the mentally ill. Those who are not mentally are just as likely if not more so to commit these type of crimes. It is not fair to those with real mental illnesses to call these killers mentally ill without proof. Dylann Roof wasn't mentally ill. He was just a bigot.

The massacre in Orlando was a product of homophobia and heterosexism. Quit blaming the victims![/font]

markpkessinger

(8,395 posts)
8. This isn't "blaming the victims" . . .
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 08:03 PM
Jun 2016

. . . Look, I am a gay man who has been out and proud since the age of 19 (36 years ago). This isn't a matter of blaming gay people, but rather one of recognizing what can happen as a result of an extremely oppressive, hetero-normative culture! That isn't blaming gay people in the least!

LostOne4Ever

(9,288 posts)
13. What this is about is combating a homophobic meme that all homophobes are secretly gay
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 09:24 PM
Jun 2016

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]All too often, whenever there is a notable homophobe rumors start circulating that the person is a closet homosexual. It is like Straight people can't ever be homophobes.

For example, people keep on accusing Linsey Graham of being gay here on DU. This is despite the man saying he is not. And, if we are going to start speculating on his orientation based upon his behavior, he is far more likely to be asexual like me than anything.

Yes, there are some people who turn their hatred in-ward because of an extremely oppressive, heteronormative culture. But most homophobia is the not result of self loathing homosexuals. The majority of the supporters of the "kill the gays" bill in Uganda were not gay. Demographically, the majority of the people who supported that were straight.

This homophobic meme needs to be fought and the very LEAST I can do is call it out when i see it for my L/G allies.[hr]

I also want to point out that the shooter being gay is incredibly unlikely. He had two wives and stalked women. He quite obviously had opposite gender sexual attractions.

The question is, at most, was he straight or was he bi. There is some evidence that he might have been bi, but that is either based upon speculation (his ex-wife saying he might be "gay&quot or on un-named sources and hear-say.

Just as I am going to defend my LG allies, I am not going to throw my B allies under the bus either. Until there is some hard evidence of the contrary, I am going to fight this ridiculous assertion that this evil man was LGBTQIA+ in any way. [/font]

LostOne4Ever

(9,288 posts)
17. Where did I say that you suggested it?
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 09:40 PM
Jun 2016

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]I didn't.

What I did say was there is a homophobic meme that all homophobes are gay. One need only do a google search to see this:

https://www.google.com/#q=all+homophobes+are+gay

Or let autocomplete fill out the rest for us on yahoo:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac144/lostlink247365/yahoo_zpspghnw9tt.png

Regardless, I don't think it is right or fair that this homophobe be branded as a closet anything without hard evidence. I have seen nothing but speculation and anonymous sources. What I do have, is hard proof that he had two wives, and fathered a son What I do have is solid proof that he had homophobic views.

Lets fixate on that instead of giving support to this meme.[/font]

Chemisse

(30,810 posts)
20. The assertion that all homophobes are secretly gay has always annoyed me too.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 09:59 PM
Jun 2016

I'm sure that it happens occasionally, particularly to religious fanatics, but there are plenty of people who hate gays (and sorry, I don't see the problem with saying 'gays' in this context, especially if the alternative is to be redundant by using 'people' twice in the same sentence) simply because they despise and/or fear those who are not just like them.

I do differ with the insistance that he was not gay being put forth because people dislike that stereotype, as well as the implications. That stereotype is overplayed, and a favorite among people who are bigoted, but still it makes sense that it happens once in a while.

Others don't want him to have been an ISIS-inspired terrorist, so push the self-hating gay meme.

Maybe we should just go where the facts lead us.

Behind the Aegis

(53,955 posts)
22. Once again demonstrating why you are an excellent ally!
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 12:38 AM
Jun 2016

I hope more and more GLBT people see your posts and recognize your importance contribution to this and other LGBT issues. But, more importantly, I hope straight people read your words and see, "this is how one is an ally to the LGBT people", it is a hell of a lot more than posting an avatar or crocodile tears or "wow! that's so bad!".

Thank you! I sincerely, and heartily say it again; THANK YOU!

markpkessinger

(8,395 posts)
15. Yes, it was a product of homophobia and heterosexism . . .
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 09:33 PM
Jun 2016

. . . the very same homophobia and heterosexism that makes people feel they can't be open about who they are in the first place!

And once again, as a gay man myself, I have NO interest in promoting homophobia -- I just choose to recognize how pervasive its effects truly are!

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
6. DU is full of people with bias against both (deleted) and (deleted) along with strong bias in favor
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 07:57 PM
Jun 2016

of (deleted).

Takket

(21,563 posts)
11. This is no different than any other violent event.
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 08:46 PM
Jun 2016

People speculate all the time with whatever facts they are given. The prospect that he was a "self loathing homosexual" is a perfectly reasonable theory for someone to come with based on the available facts. I remember when Jared Loughner (spell?) shot Gabby people were searching the internet and convinced he was a democrat, convinced he was a republican, convinced Sarah Palin's target map inspired him, etc etc.

People aren't coming up with these theories because they are anxious to bash homosexuals. They are coming up with them because they fit the limited information we have.

In the end, the FBI's formal results are all that matter.

markpkessinger

(8,395 posts)
16. Well said, although I think your faith in the FBI to provide an objective . . .
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 09:39 PM
Jun 2016

. . . non-agenda-driven analysis is misplaced.

IronLionZion

(45,433 posts)
19. People are trying to examine reasons why someone would kill a lot of people
Tue Jun 21, 2016, 09:46 PM
Jun 2016

Sure many of the comments are insensitive. But we must question why someone would want to kill. It could be a complex combination of multiple reasons.

We can't just go with the over-simplified Republican answer of people who are different from us are coming to kill us. They don't want to face the truth that the killers are coming from our own neighborhoods and grew up down the street from us and like the same music and websites.

Behind the Aegis

(53,955 posts)
21. Brava!
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 12:35 AM
Jun 2016

She did a fantastic job. I find this paragraph the most salient:

Unfortunately, many people have also declared that Mateen was clearly a “closet homosexual”, and that his shooting was fuelled by psychotic self-hatred and mental illness. Comments sections are teeming with announcements like, “I called it!!”, “that was obvious”, “he’s clearly mentally ill” and “the biggest homophobes are always closet gays”.


It has been that attitude which has been most prevalent and infuriating. It is made worse by GLBT people who promote it or make excuses for it. Then again, I am not surprised because one can always find someone in an affected group who is willing to promote any argument, Fox sure did:



The person they interview, Guy Benson, who is gay (and only watches Fox news, by his own admission), "confirms" that gay journalists are biased and nothing more than activists, particularly Anderson Cooper. "See! See! We have a GAY person who agrees with us and tells the "truth"! See! I knew it. I knew I was right that gay journalists are biased activists!!"



Something else which definitely should be highlighted:

Secondly, let’s turn to sexuality; and, in particular, the depressingly common trope that “the biggest homophobes are always closet gays.” Let’s be perfectly clear: homophobia is not a gay problem. While some LGBT people who are struggling with their identities certainly exhibit internalised homophobia (and transphobia), homophobia is a widespread, institutional problem most often perpetuated by straight people.


Know what, I am going to say it again (OK, cut and paste it again):

Secondly, let’s turn to sexuality; and, in particular, the depressingly common trope that “the biggest homophobes are always closet gays.” Let’s be perfectly clear: homophobia is not a gay problem. While some LGBT people who are struggling with their identities certainly exhibit internalised homophobia (and transphobia), homophobia is a widespread, institutional problem most often perpetuated by straight people.


There! Made it a bit more readable. It pisses me off some are trying to play the LGBT community off of the Muslim community, mainly the right, and it is failing, of course; but what is worse, other than tripe I have already discussed and this author discussed, are those who are "concerned" about this incident and it doesn't have jack to with Islam, Muslims (well, in some cases it does), and certainly not the LGBT community. Once again, demonstrating, the LGBT are a disposable group, unless it fits the narrative someone wants, and if it doesn't, then by G-d, they will make it fit, by hook or by crook!

Dalziel3979

(72 posts)
25. It never fails as a dismissive distancing tactic,
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 08:29 AM
Jun 2016

this presumptive insinuation that all anti-LGBT killers and shit speakers are really just closeted self loathing homos themselves, the subtext of that meaning that the straights can always just write the issue off as such people not being one of 'us' but one of 'them' so therefore it's solely their problem to deal with, not ours. It also serves as a convenient way to skate around having to discuss the institutionalized homophobia and misogyny and unquestioning moral absolutism in the religions and cultures a lot of these people are raised or influenced under.

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
26. Men become violent for being "turned down" often
Wed Jun 22, 2016, 08:33 AM
Jun 2016

enough by women, why not men? I don't see why it couldn't be a thwarted romantic interest, a wounded sense of entitlement, just as well as some muddled ideas about politics and his religious heritage. Sometimes we'll never know why people do violent destructive things.

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