The party that takes away your rights is concerned about you losing your right to guns...

[liberal N proud]

[baldguy]

1. Guns are the tools of our oppression & subjugation.

[pipoman]

2. The same is true of the party which traditionally defended

Civil rights and liberties demanding we give up civil liberties in favor of some false perception of safety...

[liberal N proud]

3. And what rights would that be?

[hack89]

4. The right to due process.

civil rights should be hard to take away for obvious reasons. That does not mean there are not situations where rights can and should be severely restricted but the government should be forced to justify it and the person effected has has the right to know and challenge the reasons.

[liberal N proud]

5. As far as I know, we still have due process

[hack89]

6. In the context of the terror watch lists and the ability to buy guns

the conversation is heading in a dangerous direction.

[XRubicon]

21. Does the no fly list bother you, did it bother you before guns were mentioned?

[hack89]

25. Just like you, I was appalled at the Patriot Act

and the broad brush attack on civil liberties it represents. Do you know any progressives that support it?

[XRubicon]

26. So the no fly list needs to go too right?

You are all for it?

[hack89]

29. Only if we can't fix it. nt

[sarisataka]

31. It is beyond fixing

and IMO worse than McCarthyism. Get rid of it completely.

If we need to restrict someone from buying a gun, boarding a plane, getting a library card... due it via the courts and using actual evidence.

[Eleanors38]

56. It bothered me then. It bothers me now, that it has expanded as predicted.

[baldguy]

7. The new RW talking point is that sensible & rational gun laws take away "due process"

No "due process" for the 30k+ people killed by guns every year, of course.

[aikoaiko]

8. Since a vast majority of those deaths are suicides, what role would due process play?

I'm not sure what you wrote makes any sense.

[baldguy]

9. As if suicides are less dead than the others...

The lack of compassion & empathy for victims of gun violence is astonishing & appalling.

[aikoaiko]

10. No they are not less dead. Do you know what due process is? Is that why you can't answer?

[baldguy]

11. Do you understand that it has nothing to do with due process?

That talking point is just a distraction being pushed by the fascist RWrs that think guns are a good way to keep the untermenschen in line.

[sarisataka]

12. I never knew

The ACLU was a fascist RW group that think guns are a good way to keep the untermenschen in line

[baldguy]

13. The ACLU certainly isn't liberal or progressive in any stretch of the imagination.

What they are is a group of myopic fundamentalists. They see nothing wrong with defending Rush Limbaugh's privacy while he eviscerates the privacy of others, or Nazis when they say the only proper place foe Jews are inside ovens.

[sarisataka]

32. Oh that nasty freedom of speech

whatever were the founders thinking? Of course I would bet Bush would have loved to silence his critics...

Fascism is not the only form of totalitarianism.

[X_Digger]

35. You mean people who actually have principles, and stick by them? You should learn something from em.

n/t

[baldguy]

39. People who put their "principles" ahead of people's lives.

[X_Digger]

40. Yeah, you would put "principles" in quotes, wouldn't you?

You might want to look them up, and get some.

Ans here's the thing- to make them principles, not merely preferences, you have to support them in all cases, even when the people exercising them are things you don't like.

Or.. you could just keep flip-flopping about whether you support X or Y, based on who's in power and making the decisions.

Fucking sad.

[baldguy]

41. For principles to of any value you have to understand the **REASON** they exist.

If you follow the letter of the law it's just another form of authoritarianism.

The Founders told us what they intended for the Constitution - to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to themselves and their descendants.

The Second Amendment - which you worship above all else - does none of those things. It has instead become antithetical to them in every way.

[X_Digger]

42. Yes, Mr. Orwell, Principles = Authoritarianism.

Newspeak bullshit.

Oh, and you should also take a civics class-- it might help you tell the difference between the constitution and the declaration of independence.

Derp.

[baldguy]

43. From someone who thinks the country's founders would condone mass murder as a civil right

and the only answer to gun violence is more guns & more violence.


BTW it's almost funny that you can't recognize the words of the Constitution when you see them. Understandable, though. None of it is important to you beyond the sacred Second Amendment.

[X_Digger]

45. Oh look, you know how to stuff a straw man. Or did you buy it pre-stuffed?

Feel free to address the words that I actually say, not what you wish I'd said, mm'kay?

I think our founders understood that principles are principles, and free speech applies to both whigs and hessians.

Here's an example of a founder, supporting a principle:

That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved.

BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, letter to Benjamin Vaughan, March 14, 1785.—The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, ed. Albert H. Smyth, vol. 9, p. 293 (1906).

[baldguy]

46. You still can't recognize the Constitution when you see it.

And you're confusing rights with privileges again.

[X_Digger]

48. Like the right of free speech? Do I need to quote you above?

Last edited Sat Jun 25, 2016, 12:13 AM - Edit history (1)

What they are is a group of myopic fundamentalists. They see nothing wrong with defending Rush Limbaugh's privacy while he eviscerates the privacy of others, or Nazis when they say the only proper place foe Jews are inside ovens.

It's called a principle. One supports a principle (free speech in this case) regardless of who's utilizing it.

If you pitch your principle in the trash can when it's someone or something you don't like, then you didn't have a principle to begin with, merely a convenient preference; a platitude that you can mumble and stutter while stomping your feet.

Having principles is hard. You sometimes have to support people you don't like, expression of speech you disagree with, or rights that you don't personally avail yourself of.

[baldguy]

53. Your "principles" allow people to be killed unnessesarily.

You pitch people's lives into the trash to preserve your holy Second Amendment.

And you've pretty much admitted that no other part of the Constitution matters to you. That's not being principled, that's being an extremist.

[X_Digger]

55. Again with the quotes? We get it, you don't have any principles of your own.

Free speech? Not for nazis.
Due process? Not for people who want guns.

[baldguy]

58. The "principles" you so judicially champion aren't principles at all.

They don't involve a chance for a more perfect union, any concept of justice, or any connection to the idea of domestic tranquility. Just the hunger for more innocent deaths.

Orlando is on your head. Sandy Hook is on your head. Charleston is on your head. It happens again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again - and people like you do everything you can to ensure they will happen more and more.

There's absolutely no reason in the world that there should be any gun massacres. Ever. Anywhere. But people like you are just bloodthirsty enough to prevent any motion to prevent them.

[X_Digger]

59. Nice red herring. We get it, there is no principle you won't throw away.

Some people are easily swayed by emotional arguments- they have no bedrock principle to stand on.

Terra watch list under Bushco? Horrible travesty against justice!! Terra watch list under Obama? Well, it's not so bad, really.

Fucking sad.

[baldguy]

60. 30,000+ gun deaths in America every year, and we're not supposed to be emotional?

It takes a special kind of person not get emotional seeing children being slaughtered. Then to see children being slaughtered again. Then to see children being slaughtered again. And again, and again, and again, - and while they have the power to change things & stop it, they choose to do nothing.

And don't think I mean "special" in a good way.

[X_Digger]

61. How do you think we got the patriot act in the first place? Fucking duh.

Moronic legislation that does nothing to curb a problem, that isn't constitutional, that is supported by shallow thinkers without an understanding of how our rights work or how governments work.. you feel free to endorse that shit.

Me? I'll stand by the ACLU-- you know, the subject of this subthread, irrespective of your trying to derail it when I expose your lack of principles.

[baldguy]

62. We got the Patriot Act by giving into unthinking, irrational fear,

which is exactly the reason unthinking, irrational, fearful people buy more & more guns.

[X_Digger]

63. Emotional twaddle without principle led to the Patriot act.

Throwing our principles in the trash can because, waah terrah, led to the patriot act.

Seems oddly familiar. Oh yeah, I read a couple posts up to yours.. that's why it sounded familiar.

[baldguy]

64. A truly principled person would see innocents slaughtered & do everything they can to stop it.

A truly principled person would have compassion & empathy for the dead & seek justice for them.

Instead we get people like you who gave us the Patriot Act and the current abuses of the Second Amendment, which are really two sides of the same coin. Irrational, fearful people who cast aside justice for vengeance, and look to scapegoat their victims.

You see the horror any rational, mature adult has at the carnage wrought by gun violence as "emotional twaddle". You neglect to recognize the role your own emotions - namely fear - in your own reactionary RW dogma.

[X_Digger]

65. I see knee-jerk legislation (Patriot Act) as emotional twaddle. Your kind of thinking, dear.

Put your name on it, own it, it's yours.

[baldguy]

66. You see human compassion and empathy as "emotional twaddle"

No wonder you're able to dehumanize & write off the yearly slaughter of 30,000+ victims of gun violence.

Put your name on it, own it, it's yours.

[X_Digger]

67. Keep your fingers out of my mouth- my words come out just fine.

Besides, I don't know where your fingers have been.

Knee-jerk legislation based on little thought and much emotion-- such as the patriot act-- are the expected result from thinking like yours.

[baldguy]

68. You object to having the ugly truth of your words exposed.

But you're perfectly happy putting the lies of the RW fascist terrorist NRA in the mouths of the people who are exposing the truth.

[X_Digger]

69. No, it's called a straw man-- you're arguing with things you wish I'd said.

But that's okay, I'll continue to stand with the ACLU.

And they'll be standing up for your rights, even if you don't stand up for them.

[Marengo]

14. Is it any less fascist to push secret watch lists and the denial of due process?

[baldguy]

15. Fascism is subjecting people to physical harm & death as a way of inducing fear.

Guns make that very easy to do.

The attempt to stop it deprives nobody of due process. That RW fantasy has nothing to do with it.

[Marengo]

16. It's also a fascist tactic to deprive people of legal rights, but I think you are okay with that.

You posts in this thread very strongly suggest this.

[baldguy]

17. What legal rights? To be able to kill as many human beings as you can as quickly as possible?

No person should have that right. It's insane to even think it.

But fascists love that idea.

[Marengo]

18. Is this some sort of performance routine? Due process, if you haven't been keeping up,

For persons added to secret watch lists based on subjective evaluations.

[baldguy]

24. The issue is guns. Weapons of mass murder - in the hands of demonstrably irresponsible people.

You think being murderously irresponsible is an inalienable right.

[XRubicon]

23. So, you will be out protesting the no fly list?

The people on that list have not been before a judge, are you ok with them being denied civil liberty of flying?

[Marengo]

50. Are you supporting the no fly list and the denial of due process?

[pipoman]

47. Jeezuz...really? LOL

First ot is the declaration of independence now this:

Fascism is subjecting people to physical harm & death as a way of inducing fear.

Uh, no....lol...that would be "terrorism"....facism

Fascism: an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

Are you discombobulated today?

[baldguy]

52. You're right. The NRA and the gun nuts that support their goals are fascist terrorists.

Thank you for clarifying.

[XRubicon]

22. Why are you concerned about due process now? the no fly list has been around for years.

Could it be...... guns?

[sarisataka]

27. The better question is why after

years of opposing these list, so many now want to embrace and expand their use?

Could it be...... guns?

{feel free to check my posting history- you will find I have always opposed these lists to restrict anything}

[XRubicon]

28. Sorry... no.

Yes, I see your favorite group is Gun Control & RKBA... Hmmmm. I guess it is guns.

[sarisataka]

30. No what?

and what does my favorite group have to do with anything. Many of the main gun control supporters also have RBKA as their favorite group. They don't bother posting in GCRA because it is an echoing wasteland. Guess how many posts were made in the "Activist" group about the Senate gun control proposals between the filibuster and the vote- I won't keep you in suspense, zero.

So now to prior Democratic opinions on the no-fly list:

The No-Fly List: Where the FBI Goes Fishing for Informants
Are You on the Government's 'No Fly' List?
No-fly list uses 'predictive assessments' instead of hard evidence, US admits
Ted Kennedy got on the No Fly list, but not a guy whose dad reported him as possibly dangerous?
NDAA Critic Stranded In Hawaii After Turning Up On No-fly List
Check out This Person on 'the no fly list' kicked off plane
Congresswoman Sanchez (D-CA) denied boarding under "no fly" list

Funny thing- you try and find a single Republican politician who was refused boarding by being listed on the no fly list, there aren't any...

[XRubicon]

33. I don't see you in any of those posts

expressing your concern about the no fly list...

Must be guns I guess...

[sarisataka]

34. I will await your apology

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=144018
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023644819
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022558773
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022462596
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6685475
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141105855
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025889678

I have long supported due process and opposed all facets of the Bush imposed Patriot Act

[XRubicon]

36. Sorry.

But I still think your veil is thin.

[sarisataka]

38. Whether you believe me or not

The guns are irrelevant to me in this discussion. It is the Democratic party embracing Bush's unconstitutional Acts that is making me outspoken. I would do the same were being used against any other civil right.

[JonathanRackham]

51. Many suicides are by overdoses.

Maybe we should ban drugs. While we're at it, let's ban shoelaces too.

[baldguy]

54. Yes, let's treat guns more like prescription drugs!

To be able to get one, you should have to demonstrate a need. If you take too many you'd be recognized by society as being sick. And if you carry them around with you unnecessarily people would know that you have a problem.

The difference is, of course, the abuse of drugs usually only kills the abuser, and not the people around them.

[XRubicon]

20. Thank you for self identifying.

[pipoman]

44. LOL

[XRubicon]

49. LOL @ U

[Initech]

19. Amen to that!

[ailsagirl]

37. ...

[Eleanors38]

57. Glad no Democrats support the Terror Watch List's end-around of the 5th.

And, I might add, the expansion of BushCo's NoFly.