OH MY GOD let's get several things straight about Brexit

[auntpurl]

1. This vote was NOT called because of dissatisfaction with the EU. This vote was called because Cameron thought he could shut up the internal squabbles in the Tory party by shoving a strong Remain result down the RW's throat. He failed. He will be forever remembered as the PM who presided over both the breakdown of the EU and the breakdown of the UK. You wouldn't think his political career could have had a lower moment than fucking a pig, but here we are.

2. This result was NOT caused by dissatisfaction with "neoliberalism" whatever the hell THAT is supposed to mean in this context. All the austerity measures have come under the conservative government, and the complete decimation of UK manufacturing and blue collar jobs happened under Thatcherism (another Conservative). They very successfully blamed the EU for it with the help of the media.

3. This result was NOT supported by the Left or anyone else interested in economic justice. This result was supported by xenophobes who were worked into a hysterical frenzy by the media constantly blaming the EU for every single thing that went wrong in the UK, and that has been going on since the EU's inception.

4. This result was STRONGLY OPPOSED by the young, (as most people have noticed) AND by the educated (as fewer people are talking about).

5. If you are a progressive, there is no conscionable way to support this result. If you are concerned about the environment, human rights, and diversity, there is no conscionable way to support this result.



6. The poor and uneducated, who overwhelmingly voted to Leave, will suffer the most under this result. The educated with means (who overwhelmingly voted to Remain) will, ironically, be the ones who can get away from what is going to be years of shit. There will be massive brain drain and investment drain.



7. All you who in some bizarro reality think that the UK is going to be better off are crazy. Sources at Morgan Stanley are already telling the BBC they're moving 2000 London-based investment banking staff to Dublin or Frankfort. Oh, that's a good thing because "banksters" are EVIL? These are people's JOBS. Financial services is one of the largest employers in Britain.

8. If you are in favour of this result, you side with Trump, Putin, Le Pen, and Nigel Fucking Farage.

9. The Leave campaign has ALREADY admitted they lied about their promises. No more money is going to the NHS. There will be no significant decrease in immigration. Johnson has admitted he has no plan for EU exit.

If all of the above is ok with you, well, then, we have very little in common.

[FreakinDJ]

1. "Thatcherism" was UK's Reaganomics

[LeftishBrit]

252. Yes - they were best pals and influenced each other a lot

[The Far Left]

279. A sovereign nation may be better able to defeat Reaganism/Thatcherism nt

[uponit7771]

2. +1, Trump and Putin supported Brexit ... Obama was against it, bout all I need to know to about it..

... and the details you outlined supported this initial analysis.

+1 on this op

[davidn3600]

8. Where is the quote Putin weighed in on this at all?

[uponit7771]

15. link inside

https://www.rt.com/news/348201-putin-brexit-weak-economies/

Been his position from the get even if it kept it quite

[davidn3600]

44. That's his reaction to it

Where did he say he supports Brexit before the vote?

He also said this:
“Apparently the British people are not satisfied with the way problems are being solved in the security sphere, these problems have become more acute lately with the migration processes,”

Not quite sure how you can disagree with him there. The immigration crisis in Europe is a disaster. There is no leadership. The only thing the EU is doing is accusing people of racism and xenophobia at every turn. That's not leadership! That's creating even more division.

And we see the same thing happening here. Anyone against the establishment is being accused of racism, isolationism, and sexism. You got growing numbers of people in multiple countries (US included) who feel completely disconnected with their government. And the only response the establishment has is, "fuck them." Well.. the voters are responding now with a big "fuck you too." And this is not surprising at all. And it will spread. Because the establishments around the world have NO interest in reform or change.

It's not just immigration. It's global trade deals that never benefits anyone but the wealthy. It's corporations and banks that are never held accountable. It's pointless war and conflict people have become tired of. The list can go on and on.

[uponit7771]

49. That was his position from the start, not just his reaction

[bora13]

169. boris the spider

or putin the spider. he silently but effectively lured the scared and freaked out into coming closer to his web.

[840high]

222. I can't disagree with Putin.

[newthinking]

226. You are correct. In fact he implied recently that it was not a good thing

Our "PutinPhobia" has become so complete it is a fantasy land filled with media narrative. The most successfull propaganda campaign I have seen in my lifetime. It is difficult to even have factual discussions with people. I don't know how many times I have been told by people that what I have seen with my own eyes (I have been to the region&quot is just lying propaganda.

I am mostly concerned that if they can paint such an effective Narrative about this how powerful is media manipulation becoming and what else will it drive us toward?

[ronnie624]

66. That isn't what your article says.

"The president says such claims were an ill-posed attempt to influence the general opinion of the British public.

“But as we see now, even claims like these have not had the effect desired by those who made them. No one has the right to make claims on Russia’s position, especially after the votes were counted. This is nothing but an example of a low level of political culture,” Putin said.

The Russian head of state noted that Moscow has never interfered with the British referendum and never made any statements on the matter."

[uponit7771]

68. Red Herring, my point is he supported it no matter how much he weighed in on it... I think I made

... that clear.

[ronnie624]

71. What is clear, is that your assertion is false. n/t

[Native]

93. Geez, what is your issue with Putin? I've only read about a gazillion articles regarding Putin's

stance on Brexit. It is almost like you're defending him or something. It seems pretty clear to me that the EU is one of Russia's greatest rivals, if not the greatest. Do you really think that any crack in the EU is not going to be seen as a positive by Putin? Do you really need to see Putin state the obvious in black and white and in no uncertain terms? I just don't understand the rationale behind your posts.

[uponit7771]

124. +1

[newthinking]

228. It comes from the same place that the "Putin said he wants the USSR back" came from

That was all over in hundreds of articles and it was a complete falsehood. Wake up. We live in a very sophisticated narrative / interest based MSM environment. Most every thing you read originates and is copied and wordsmithed with some different language. The production of mass media is highly made of people who are paid by the article and have to propagate masses of works in short time frames. They pick up whatever they get: From the government, industry, and regurgitate it, add an emotional title, make a few accusations or create panic if they can, but rarely actually substantiate the material.

The "Russia" narrative has been so prominent that it has provoked a backlash. Not because people are supporting Putin, but because it represents such powerful evidence of a warped media and it is more recognizable than much of the other pablum we get fed. The more you research it the more awed you become of the ability to be able to present such a uniform narrative. Not just about issues with Russia, but with most war reporting at the least.

This is our future.

[uponit7771]

106. This is false on its face, His comment wasn't made BECAUSE of the leave vote his thinking was...

... before the vote.

You can ignore that all you want

[ronnie624]

157. Ideally,

one would provide a link to info that supports one's claims, rather than one that refutes them.

[OnlinePoker]

114. Even 3 days ago he was keeping his opinion to himself.

“Who can predict it? No one can predict it. I have my own opinion on this matter – whether it is good or bad – but I will refrain from giving the forecast. I think it would be improper on my part to do that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/vladimir-putin-states-david-cameron-may-have-called-eu-referendu/

[uponit7771]

119. Yeap, his opinion was he supported it IE his "weak nation" phrase

[PatrynXX]

110. Obama is for the TPP, Trump is against it. end of line n/t

[uponit7771]

116. That's even more of a reason to take a second look at the TPP too, I'm not anti trade I'm anti

... unfetered trade that is parasitic and allows displacement.

The TPP has mitigation against this then I'll take read

[George Eliot]

267. Since TPP written by corportations, I'm sure just fine.

[uponit7771]

268. So its 100% written by corps or were they allowed to weigh in? I'm not anti corporation either, ...

... I don't try to fit things 100% in the evil box even conservatives though I feel they deserve it.

thx in advance

[George Eliot]

281. Perhaps I'm wrong but these are my sources.

Basically corporations and lobbyists from what I read. The TPP isn't even available to the general public to read. Read a long time ago that it wasn't even really available to Congress . . .

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150605/11483831239/revealed-emails-show-how-industry-lobbyists-basically-wrote-tpp.shtml
Politics
by Mike Masnick
Mon, Jun 8th 2015 9:29am

Filed Under:
intellectual property, lobbyists, tpp, ustr

Revealed Emails Show How Industry Lobbyists Basically Wrote The TPP

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/05/11/elizabeth-warren-and-rosa-delauro-who-writing-tpp/2FQZAV6uz9GGQI6pe3cd0K/story.html

Who is writing the TPP?

I put them in blockquote to set apart. Did you read the Dean Baker article on copyrights? Everything is geared to protect big money.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/the-secret-to-the-incredi_b_10580438.html

I hate a lot of links but they say it better and you'd be better off to read their expertise than mine. Tell me, what in the US isn't controlled by corporations these days?

[uponit7771]

282. I'd like hard proof that it was 100% written by corps not conjecture, again... I'm not anti ....

... corporation just not a corporatist or believe in unfettered capitalism

[forest444]

129. It's a sad commentary on our times, isn't it?

I understand opposition to the TTIP - Europe's TPP and a top Merkel project - may have given the Leave vote the necessary margin of victory.

As much as I'm inclined to think the UK should be part of the EU for the sake of European unity, it's certainly hard to defend Frau Merkel and her menu of austerity-with-a-side-of-corporatocracy.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

172. +1

nt

[GulfCoast66]

198. Right

Because getting other countries to emulate Germany's policies of fair labor practices, high but reasonable taxes that everyone pays with almost no fraud, and are enough to provide for societies needs, with small deficits would make them the hellhole Germany is.

Can't have that. And then the cold hearted PM wants other European to actually play by the rules. Despicably!

[w4rma]

223. I've seen nothing to suggest that Merkel was trying to get other nations to emulate Germany's labor

protections. Everything I've seen says that Merkel was trying to get other nations to lower their labor protections and undergo austerity, indenturing themselves to multinational financiers.

[runaway hero]

237. So you actually didn't read about this at all.

You saw some names you liked and disliked and chose one.

[Koinos]

3. Thank you. An excellent summary.

[anoNY42]

4. As an American

The above is all very much OK with me, since I do not presume to criticize how Brits vote in their own referenda.

I am not sure how I would have voted if I was a limey, though...

[Whiskeytide]

167. But that's two different issues ...

... I - and most everyone here - support any democratic process which allows any electorate to make important decisions about their own government.

But the concern of the OP - I think - is that the UK electorate did not fully understand what was being decided. The British political rhetoric and the media coverage emphasized problems - sometimes with great exaggeration - with the UK's membership in the EU, but failed to remind people of the benefits they also enjoyed. It was Trump-esque - "Stop sending money to them! Stop the terrorists from immigrating! Britain first!" There was opposition, obviously, but it was meek, necessarily more nuanced than is handy for sound-bites, and I think they made a lot of assumptions underestimating the anger/fear/resentment of many voters.

So, like the OP, - I can (and do) fully support the people having the right to decide, while still being critical of the lousy political process that delivered the choice to them.

BTW - welcome to DU!

[The Green Manalishi]

265. I am a Californian

EVERY election we have millions of people voting on initiatives they could not begin comprehend even if they TRIED to read them.

[LonePirate]

5. Nicely stated! No American progressive or any other educated human should support Brexit.

Does anyone know if Parliament will actually enact the exit given that yesterday's vote was technically a non-binding vote?

[RelativelyJones]

33. Says you

As an American progressive I think Brexit is the best path to a social and economic progress.

[BlueMTexpat]

72. There is very little that is progressive

about that attitude. You may want to reconsider your self-description.

[1StrongBlackMan]

89. It would seem ...

Some confuse "economic disruption" with "economic justice".

[BlueMTexpat]

91. Too true.

[uponit7771]

120. +1, OP worthy

[wryter2000]

180. Yup

We saw a lot of that here during the primary.

[RelativelyJones]

131. Really?

Do explain what is so progressive about the McKinseyeqse, business school perspective, approach of the EU to every social problem.

[BlueMTexpat]

142. LOL - buh-bye! eom

[xocet]

168. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "McKinseyeqse (sic)"? n/t

[bigbrother05]

192. Bob & Doug?

[muriel_volestrangler]

190. Start with the trade unions' position on how the EU gives workers protection:

http://tuc.org.uk/EUref

Then look at the politicians pushing for exit - right wing, low tax, don't care about the environment, are dismissive of human rights:

http://www.ukip.org/ukip_manifesto_summary
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/damian-carrington-blog/2016/jun/24/uks-out-vote-is-a-red-alert-for-the-environment
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/a-vote-to-remain-will-protect-our-human-rights-from-being-destroyed-by-the-tory-government-a7095031.html

[PaulaFarrell]

275. Then you don't know or understand Britain

In case you didn't hear, the top Tory candidates for PM are a bunch of climate-change deniers.

I'm just curious what social or economic progress you think is now going to happen. I can't think of a single damn thing.

It'll be a disaster in the short-term, but if labour gets elected in NOvember that will help. But they'll be stuck wuth implementing something they were against to start with. It's a hell of a situation and pronouncements like yours are not based on any knowledge about this country. It's NOT a progressive country, and being out from under the EU wll mean they can ditch a whole host of environmental and labour laws.

[Igel]

65. Imposing views is all well and fine.

And has a long history in the progressive movement.

I like to think for myself, thank you. (I don't support Brexit, but can easily understand why some would. Then again, I understand why Latvia had non-progressive language and cultural policies in the '90s and '00s and why Mayans resented the destruction of their culture in the '80s and '90s and decided to do something about it and why many Tibetans resent the imposition of so many Han and of Mandarin on their culture. The English are as indigenous as the Tibetans or the Mayans or the Latvians, and you respect indigenous cultures or you don't.

(Similarly, you respect populist demands for reworking the system to suit them, as many here on the right and left want, or you go with a technocratic view in which experts and their opinions as to what's best for the masses holds sway. What I find unconscionable was in the '90s when many progressives thought the Mayan defense was okay but the Latvian defense of culture was evil. Or the idea that populism is good except when it's not our brand of it. Most populism is foolishness dressed up academician's or a prophet's garb.)

[haele]

112. Good point except English haven't had an indigenous population since the 300's.

The Picts were the last truly indigenous people with their own unique "English" culture. All other populations have been diluted and their cultures impacted by Euro-centric patrons, colonial imports, or invaders
England has always been a scattered patchwork of populations based on privilege, conquest or colonialism. The current typical English citizen has a culture that is a hodge-podge mix of French, Danish, Norwegian, Saxon, Celtic Welsh, Gaelic Irish or Scots, and Central Asian (British Empire, what?). Oh, and a really warped view of class privilege and "home", where everyone had to have someone below them on the social scale if they mattered, and some benevolent squire, mayor, or factory owner would take care of them if they were just loyal enough...
It's always been immigrants that were the bad guys, also. There's always been complaints about immigrants and "travellers" (especially the native English Gypsy or Tinker populations) throughout "English" history.
English "culture" is just like American "culture". It's the culture of a policy of colonialism and invasions. Unless you can find an isolated native tribe, local English and American culture is a function of "whatever feels good or works out for the people in charge".

Not at all a homogenous culture as the Mayan, Tibetan, or even Latvian cultures are.

I've seen what "cultural" protection in the US looks like. Provincialism and Class Protectionism have very little to do with culture.

Haele

[elljay]

161. But they have formed a unique cukture

Do we have to impose age or ethnic purity requirements on a culture? Mexicans are a mix of indigenous peoples and the European Spanish invaders who imposed the Catholic religion on what remained of the population after they caused the deaths of most natives. Does that mean that there is no Mexican people or culture, too? Do they get to be a culture because they have darker skin than the English? Don't the English get to decide what is their culture and not outsiders? I am not English so not qualified to make decisions for them, but I do understand from personal experience what it is like to love one's culture and want to preserve it. There is a huge difference between wanting and enjoying diversity and getting overwhelmed by it and it is their right to make that decision, for better or worse.

[haele]

210. Again, the problem is that there is not really an "English Culture" any more than the "US" culture.

English culture is far more regional than is found in Mexico, Australia, or Canada. Even the English language is different between counties; the English spoken in Cornwall is not the same as the English spoken in London or the English spoken in Northumbria. Country culture ranges from district to district, county to county - depending on who invaded when. There is ultimately no "unique culture". There's English/Welsh culture, English/Scots culture, English/Anglo-Saxon culture, English/French culture (i.e., landed gentry/aristocracy), Northern, Southern, Eastern, Western, Fenlands, Maritimes, Industrial, City, Raj...

It's nothing like Mexico, France, Germany - or even Ireland and Scotland. There's never been a strong indigenous population that maintained a foothold; only small local semi-tribal settlements with their own leadership, practices and habits that agree to trade with each other instead of continuing to war with each other. Heck, even within what is understood to be England, there is a unique country with it's own unique culture - Wales.
This is provincialism in practice; it took WWI and a great depression - recent history - for the population of England proper to begin to homogenize and become more of "a culture".

The only thing historic "England" has in common as a culture is that there is a basic common language - that is made up from at least seven different European Languages and two different native tribal languages - a melting-pot history, and the ultimate fact that there's a King/Queen and Parliament that is in charge of law and land.

I've been to Mexico several times - including as part of an anthropology study my mother was involved with back when I was a teen. I've also been to England several times due to work and once a 2 month holiday, and I've studied their history as part of re-enactment, as quite a few of my father's ancestors came from there, as well as most of the colonial settlements in this country.
England's unique culture is that there is no one culture. It's a melting pot of cultures, with many different cultures that have either entwined or segregated themselves over centuries of Imperial rule. Only the foolish BNP and other provincial right wingers there want "English Only" - because they think their little comforting corner of English culture is THE ONLY TRUE English culture.

In reality, the only true "English" are (added in edit) small, dark people who painted themselves blue when they went to war against Roman Legions. But they died out or otherwise disappeared around A.D. 300, along with their language and culture.

Haele

[haele]

246. Actually, I do know what I'm talking about. I saw the breakdown of the Brexit vote.

I also heard a lot of people - including personal friends who are English ex-pats - who thinking it was just going to be a protest vote that would push Parliament into a plan that would allow them to leave eventually. To an Englishman and Englishwoman, they were all shocked and upset that it had been taken seriously and passed.


Look, We face the same bloody attitudes here in the US which is "What makes a true American" - "What is the True American Culture".
Has nothing to do with elitism.
Has everything to do with the Know-nothingism, fear of others, and a weak view of one's own history pushed by the various British Conservitive "Nationalist" groups.
Look at the organizations that were pushing Brexit - they're pretty much fear-mongering racists nationalist that would turn on fellow Britains in a heartbeat, or they're greedy Neo-Liberals looking to make a killing on the fall of the English Economy. Instead of actually working on and providing the public with "this is how we exit the EU, and still maintain a viable economy and not fall into a Thatcherist/Facist paradise", they're screaming "Burn Down The Barn" - and everything in it. Without telling the public what they're going to replace the shitty barn with.

This referendum screws more Britains - Englishmen - than it helps. Do you remember England Post WWII? That's probably the best outcome for England, there's been too many decades that the EU has been an effect on British Economy - almost as if England was a "colony" of the EU. Even two years supposed "planning" to decouple from the EU won't save the British Economy, especially with Ireland and Scotland the next to pull out. And then, what are they planning to do with all those "evil immigrants that are taking good British jobs" - in a world where Asia and Eastern Europe are Britain's primary competitors?

The situation that most rational anti-EU Britains I know were trying to push into place was to make a viable plan to decouple from the EU and not crash the economy, or lose Scotland, Ireland, and perhaps Wales - much of their industrial and skilled labor hubs. Instead, they get to experience privatization and austerity on steroids, because of the f'n Tory games.

Look, England deserves it's sovereignty and a healthy sovereign economy- but that's not what the referendum was really advertised as, and that's not what the English were encouraged to vote for. It was advertised as "get rid of the corrupt EU and those nasty foreigners".
And a huge part of the problem was provincialism. Just as it is here, with our conservatives, Know-nothings, and provincial elitists who think they are the only True Americans. We've got our own Sovereign Citizen problem, along with corrupt corporations and globalists.
Large melting pot countries don't have a specific culture, they need to have mongrel subsets. If they try to impose a homogeneous (edit point - wrong word damn don't ask don't tell computer) culture, then you end up with a large group of citizens who are left out - and potentially persecuted because they don't fit in to that culture based on their own heritage, no matter how many generations their families were in the country.

Likewise, we have no true "American Culture". If we did, three quarters of the country would be up shit creek, depending on what that "culture" would be.

Brexit was an extremely flawed referendum. I'm just praying it doesn't become as bad as history has shown what typically happens when one country decouples from a larger country. The minorities are the first to feel the pain.

Haele

[libdem4life]

261. Thank you for your time in helping us to

understand better. It's endemic and how it plays out here will be interesting.

I read a book called London ny Edward Rutherford a long time ago...amazing historical/fiction. I'm going to read it again. It's about a 700 page fleshing out what you just wrote.

His books on Sarum and The Princes of Ireland made for an in depth understanding. He is a British historian.

Again,, thanks for the history/culture lesson.

[7962]

165. Well, the people SHOULD have a right to vote on it, whether we like the outcome or not

Otherwise, what do you have?

[nikto]

262. For folks disillusioned with Global Capitalism's un-democratic domination, Brexit is hitting back

The left wing case for leaving the EU:
"Supporters of the EU sneer “Little Englander” at those with a different opinion, but most of the arguments against membership are left-leaning and liberal."

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/john-king-left-wing-case-leaving-eu


The Left Case for Brexit:

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit


The radical left case for leaving the EU:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/michael-theodosiadis-sofia-zisi/radical-left-case-for-leaving-eu-comparative-anal


THE EU: ANTI- SOCIALIST AND ANTI-DEMOCRATIC

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-155b-THE-EU-ANTI-SOCIALIST-AND-ANTI-DEMOCRATIC#.V2RqFLt96Uk


Labour MP Kate Hoey: Why leaving the EU is a left-wing move

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-mp-kate-hoey-why-leaving-the-eu-is-a-left-wing-move-a6687936.html



Exit Left: the Socialist Case for Britain Leaving the EU

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/03/11/exit-left-the-socialist-case-for-britain-leaving-the-eu/

[proverbialwisdom]

271. More related material.

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/06/24/a-brexit-blow-to-the-establishment/
http://whowhatwhy.org/2016/06/22/obama-tries-woo-allies-final-push-trade-deals-corporations-like/

[nikto]

272. Thanks!

[proverbialwisdom]

273. This is worth learning about. I appreciate your hefty compilation of material, thank you! (nt)

[Kelvin Mace]

6. Excellent summary!

The UK just stuck its face into a belt sander to treat a case of of acne.

[truebrit71]

209. LOL!!

I saw elsewhere it was like amputating the leg to treat an ingrown toenail...

[Denzil_DC]

7. Sing it, sister!

Point 9 needs to be in neon in Piccadilly Circus:

The Leave campaign has ALREADY admitted they lied about their promises. No more money is going to the NHS. There will be no significant decrease in immigration. Johnson has admitted he has no plan for EU exit.


UK: 52% suckers.

Now watch as they continue the austerity drive. Only this time they'll likely have the justification of a tanking economy. NHS? Nice idea, just doesn't work. Privatize it. They'll probably blame that on the mean old EU too. Meanwhile, their cronies in the money markets are booking their umpteenth holidays and checking brochures for tasteful property acquisitions on the proceeds from their market fluctuation plays.

[NewJeffCT]

37. that's the sad part

if they implement greater austerity and their economy goes into the tank, they'll just blame it on the EU and whatever they call liberals in the UK.

[Denzil_DC]

40. Yup. And immigrants. n/t

[The Green Manalishi]

280. If it would only be 52% that would speak highly of them as humans

Fucking Reagan got 58 percent for his reelection bid in '84

[JustAnotherGen]

9. Great post auntpurl!

[greatauntoftriplets]

10. I can't believe some of what I'm reading here.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

11. A big, fat K&R!

Thank you for these excellent details!

Now I understand what happened and what will happen down the road.

It's ugly.

[Silver_Witch]

12. PM Cameron fucked a pig. Really?

Seems google areegs! Although it is an accusation not quite proven!


As to the rest of your post calling voters ignorant negates the rest of your well thought out post. Accusing people of supporting Trump and other asshats because they don't see it the same as you also makes your post offensive.

The English got rs want this. Let it play out a d stop screaming at people about how evil they all are! This is not the end of the world. The pendulum will swing back. You was ll see!

[auntpurl]

31. I never called anyone ignorant, and I never said they were supporting Trump.

I said the people who voted to Leave were overwhelmingly less educated, and the people who are in favour of Brexit are siding with Trump. Which they are. He is on the side of Brexit and so are they.

I also never said anyone was evil.

[Silver_Witch]

88. Perhaps you should re-read your post!

You called the voters uneducated and accused those who support this Trump supporters! Really your post was harsh! Try some gentleness it works wonders!

[Jim Beard]

269. He is correct for all I have seen and read.

His post is OK.

[leftofcool]

83. Trump supports Brexit. Those who support Brexit side with Trump Logic 101!

[Silver_Witch]

90. No..that is an informal fallacy.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

218. Siding with Trump =/= Trump supporter.

Last edited Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:55 PM - Edit history (1)

The other posters are correct. Those voting (or supporting) for Brexit are siding with Trump.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. Thank you for this op

[sufrommich]

14. Thank you. DUers cheering this crap on are perplexing,to

say the least.

[snooper2]

16. I'm trying to think of the number of fucks Americans really care about this

one way or another...
probably -2 LOL


I did hear one thing, everyone that was driving to vote was playing the Clash in their car

[auntpurl]

22. Sure, sure. Dow's down by 500, I'm sure it'll be fine.

Americans can pay attention or not, it's their retirement savings that are going to take the hit.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/23/investing/eu-referendum-markets/index.html

[cherokeeprogressive]

41. As of now it's down 366. nt

[FBaggins]

69. And was up substantially yesterday on the assumption that Remain would triumph

The net effect is not significant. There's little reason to believe that US markets will notice the blip a month from now.

[cherokeeprogressive]

174. One would think the British Isles are being towed to the middle of The Pond and readied for sinking.

There are OPs screaming that xenophobia and tribalism are the "new norms". Tell me when they stopped being the OLD NORMS. People are crying over the fact that last night, British youth lost the ability to live and work in over 20 different countries. No they didn't. They only thing that happened last night is that a vote was taken. The vote will put in motion events that will take over two years to unfold completely.

This is nothing more than the biggest divorce short of the breakup of the Soviet Union. They're splittin' the sheets. After the negotiations are over, each side will get the best deal possible for both sides and life will go on as it always has.

I'm a simple guy. I see things in simple terms, usually to my detriment but... I have always seen the EU as an attempt at a United States of America type of wish for Europe. It's taken over two hundred years for our federal government to cast a shadow so wide as to be seen as a national one. The federal government now governs daily life in all 50 states and is pretty much seen as a national government as opposed to a federal one. In my opinion, the EU tried to go from a type of federal government to a national type one whose purpose is to manage every aspect of life in Europe in less than two decades. Bad move, and here is the result.

I wish people would stop hyperventilating over it though. You can see what damage the speculators have already wreaked over a vote being taken but no material change coming in the near future.

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. Enough people here seemingly care enough about it...

to be saying some incredibly ill-informed and flat-out stupid things.

[Native]

98. Two Words, snoooper2: Unintended Consequences

+2 = Global Economy

Act 2:
Scotland
Ireland
Gibraltar
UK austerity
Two years of negotiating this exit....

And I hope all the residents of the UK who plan to travel over the summer (like 67% vacation in other EU countries) have already prepaid for their holidays 'cause costs will freaking skyrocket.

And you can kiss those low easyjet fares goodbye!

[vanlassie]

173. Yep. ExPat daughter and British husband have cancelled plans

to travel around US when they come to see me this summer. They will stay put in California and tighten belts while here.

[texstad79]

18. Great points!

I would also add that it was the equivalent of an off-year election and the electorate skewed old, white and conservative just as it does in our mid-term elections.

Ultimately, an epic fail on Cameron's part and very well might lead to a breakup of the UK.

[Bluenorthwest]

42. 72.2% voter turnout. That's very high. No UK General Election has had such high turnout since

1992.

[PatrickforO]

19. Nice analysis. You're right, of course. No one is better off because of Brexit.

The forces of hatred and xenophobia fueled by shitty, corporate media propaganda have created this problem.

But you know what? We in the west caused this problem for ourselves by allowing our military industrial complex to get out of hand. It is neoconservative policies that have created the forever war, which has destroyed many primarily Islamic countries with brown skinned people. These Islamic brown skinned people who hate Europe and the USA for our crimes are now flooding into our nations. The root cause of this problem is not people, it is corporate greed, imperialism and forever war.

Funny, we had a chance to learn to coexist as a species but instead we are beginning to break up into tribal societies because a few greed-heads want to make more profits. Capitalism and specifically the MIC is the author of our woe. The elites are laughing at us in their protected communities away from the mass unwashed...

[Igel]

76. But many perceive that they will be better off.

Perceptions are often "authentic" but utterly wrong. We notice that with other people's perceptions, of course.

We usually have the chance to form a decent society. But even in the US, given the chance to form a society, we are opting for coexistence of different societies (provided that some pay for coexistence to help others). Oddly, that's not promoting tolerance and coexistence, but making any advantage that one society has all the more salient and all the more cause for hate and resentment. The separatists have been winning and continue to win on the field, and all that many separatists seem to notice is that many spectators who weren't in the game before are now in the locker room suiting up.

If you want to have your cake and eat it, too, there are two possibilities. First, it doesn't happen because it can't. Second, you are content with reversing the order to "eat your cake and have it, too," which is basically saying you're content with having a handful of shit. They want the first and reject that it's impossible, but are outraged when they get the second.

[KPN]

148. +1. Thanks for stating what should be obvious.

It am continually perplexed by our limited problem-solving ability -- which seems to always fail at the beginning -- accurately defining the problem and its root causes. Instead we focus on the symptoms and craft non-solutions to fix them. Is it hopeless?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

176. I so agree with that.

I despise the MIC.

Without it, we would have our own NHS and other progressive programs that would make our lives better.

[fleabiscuit]

20. Thank you for the clarification. nt

[kcjohn1]

21. Did you know the Labour party was Eurosceptic party

When EU was being set up in the 70s? Main complaint was loss of sovereignty and lack of democracy in the EU institutions.

Main problems in UK are caused by their right wing government, but I don't blame their fear of immigrants driving their wages down. Do you know that private companies and even the government is outsourcing jobs to temporary contract work for cheap labour from places like Romania? How would you feel if your company fired you only to bring in foreigner worker who will work for half the wages, no benefits, and on temporary basis?

Immigration concerns does not make you racist.

[flamingdem]

23. Agreed but there is Identity to consider

that can be worth more than money to some, even if it's misguided in the end.

Not everyone wants multiculturalism, they're going to strike out. Even liberals I know secretly support Trump regarding immigration. Immigration is tough on people who are older. It's a mistake to completely shame them. Muhammed was the most popular baby name in England lately. You can see how easily the Identity issue can be manipulated because indeed, things are changing.

[wryter2000]

24. Just like here

The poorly informed vote against their own best interests.

[Craig234]

39. It's not just about well informed

There are well informed people who have interests that are bad for the public also.

[nolabels]

147. The differences between being misinformed and ignorant sometimes seem subtle but

but then again you might have a better chance getting it correct by just by being ignorant given the choice.

Fools and lemmings can be led but sheep have to herded to the flock. Nobody voluntarily joins into a group to be subjugated, at some point or points they are always forced or kept in with some type of violence.

[treestar]

150. true or maybe they really are willing

to take economic hits in order to be surrounded only by other white people. It's hard to tell with bigots. Or they just think they will do better economically without brown people around even though that is wrong.

[cloudythescribbler]

25. Excellent summary of key aspects of Brexit -- and future is grim ... some speculation

(1) Could the market impact of Brexit vote globally trigger a recession given the nonrobust state of the world economy? Might global harm it does to economy benefit Trump in Nov, among other impacts?

(2) There is talk of other countries following suit. Given the negative impacts in the short run and even more clearly over a period of years, wouldn't this tend to put a DAMPER on calls in other countries to leave the EU, increasing its weight against the idea over time?

(3) Might not this vote, especially if it leads in the next few years to Scotland (and possibly Northern Ireland) seceding from the UK, engender a backlash AGAINST the kind of nativist mugwumpism that drove the whole idea? The notion that "The Brexit vote, not immigrants, cost you your job ..." especially if wisely pursued by progressives (who overwhelmingly opposed Brexit) should provide an opportunity to progressives in that country's and possibly other countries to fight back (kind of a strained "silver lining" but still plausible)

(4) Since Brexit will almost certainly result in MORE austerity in the UK, it seems that anti-austerity forces around the continent should take note and realize that instead of withdrawing from EU, they need to UNITE within and across nations to gain the upper hand in EU politics

[auntpurl]

47. Re, your #3, it would be awesome if we had an opposition party to speak of.

Corbyn's already got a vote of no confidence coming up, and who the hell else in Labour is going to lead? If we had an effective Labour party, this never would have happened.

1. Yes.

2. Maybe. Let's hope so.

4. Let's hope so.

[KPN]

175. Well then, why don't you have an effective Labour Party?

Not trying to be a wise-ass here. Just wondering. Isn't the Labour Party much like our Democratic Party today -- somewhat divided when it comes to economic ideology ("free market" enthusiasts vs traditional democratic "socialists" for lack of better terms; Third Way vs Progressives)? My sense is the split between the left and the more centrist elements of the Labour Party render it less effective. Isn't part of that about no longer supporting their traditional base (labor and unions)?

[auntpurl]

178. Probably exactly because of the kinds of arguments you're making in your post.

First of all the unions were destroyed by Thatcher. Nothing to do with Labour.

But to your larger point, the left spends its time eating its own (in the US and the UK) without taking the time to see how much it has in common compared to literal fascism on the right. Cameron isn't a fascist - he's an idiot Conservative with a superiority complex. Farage is a fascist. Le Pen is a fascist. Putin is a fascist. Trump is a fascist.

You and I can argue all day about the precise definition of freaking "neoliberalism" and in the meantime, the fascists are marching to the polls.

[KPN]

186. I'm not sure I see how the left is eating its own ...

when, as I see it, the current political system itself is fascist and undermines achievement of progressive economic goals. You can lay the destruction of unions on Thatcher, but what has Labour done to reverse that? There is no rational reason why the middle/working class can't share economic growth on a far more equal footing with the wealthy. Yet, from the common person's perspective, we make no tangible progress in that direction. The Democratic Party is going to pay a price if it doesn't find a way to change that perception soon -- like this election in my view.

[NewJeffCT]

50. In the short term

if the UK economy goes into the tank, it could scare US voters about Trump, thinking it could cause the same thing to happen here. That said, with the Pound tanking and the Euro likely down as well, people will see the dollar as a safe haven, which could help keep the economy afloat here.

I don't think there is enough time before our election day for more countries to vote to leave the EU.

[SheilaT]

73. Alas, it's hard to picture voters who are likely to vote for Trump paying

any attention the what happens in Europe at all. And if they even notice that the UK economy has gone into the tank, it will be more likely they'll blame it on the immigration crisis, rather than a result of the country leaving the EU.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

26. NeoLiberalism is promising human unity by screwing the workers everywhere equally.

[uponit7771]

51. There are more workers then screwers but workers will never be strong enough fragmented

[Armstead]

77. Um yeah....fragmented working class is not a good thing

Reminds me of something.....

[apnu]

27. K&R! Because I feel you auntpurl, loud and clear.

[frazzled]

28. Amen

That anyone here can support or make excuses for Brexit is ... inexcusable. People who think they are "progressive" and who supported this are in no way on the progressive or liberal side of political or social thought.

I, for one, have had it with thoughtless, angry populism, whether here at home or globally. It's a dangerous, frightening development lacking in either rational or humane motivations. Take your fears, your anger, and your self interest and put them in a box, tie them with a ribbon, and throw them in the deep blue sea.

[sufrommich]

35. I agree with every word you've posted. The number of

people attempting to romanticize this pile of shit vote for xenophobia is eye opening. Extremists suck,no matter which side they're on.

[uponit7771]

52. +1, some folk aren't as progressive as they think they are... humility is a good thing +1

[1StrongBlackMan]

99. As I wrote earlier ...

For way too many, nihilism rules the day.

I guess it is easier to believe that everything centers around our own, and personal, disappointments and depressions.

[uponit7771]

101. SO true... that's about what surrounds the nihilist... themselves

[auntpurl]

140. Great post. nt

[Dr Hobbitstein]

216. +1

Last edited Fri Jun 24, 2016, 05:56 PM - Edit history (1)

I am amazed at those on this board who support this, yet call themselves progressive.

[AgadorSparticus]

278. So agree with all you said. I am tired of the angry populism too.

I feel like much of it is just anger with no real pragmatic solution.

[lovemydog]

29. Thank you for your explanation

and also I'm sorry for those who appear glib about it.

[yellowcanine]

32. Trump laid a big fat turd by going to Scotland and crowing about the results.

Scotland overwhelmingly voted to stay. Good timing, Donald!

[SheilaT]

75. Classic example of an ignoramus.

Kind of right up there with Fox News apparently saying that the UK voted to leave the UN.

[auntpurl]

138. Amazing.

[TubbersUK]

34. Just to add re point #1

It was likely Cameron's success in obtaining a NO vote in the Scottish independence referendum (thus shutting down the noise for a few years) which emboldened him to gamble on a 'Remain' result in an EU referendum. As you say, he really, really wanted to silence the Europhobes in his own party.

He just couldn't resist.

[auntpurl]

57. A spat between two Eton schoolboys has just cost the UK 10% of its value overnight nt

[TubbersUK]

62. Absolutely n/t

[philosslayer]

255. could be worse. A bunch of squabbling cousins caused World War I

[Craig234]

36. Great post at clarifying the issues.

It's too bad that things like the austerity couldn't have been more correctly blamed on the right than the EU.

[NurseJackie]

38. This is an outstanding post! Thank you very much!

[treestar]

43. wow that graphic

so they let xenophobia rule over their own economic interests. Which is what racists here might do, too.

[Mandos the Judge]

45. Excellent summary!

Point 6 is particularly sad and poignant. Shit, Wales voted majority Leave and they receive hundreds of millions of euro's in EU aid and investment every year. All those funds will disappear when the UK leaves the EU and if you believe Westminster will take up the slack I have some seaside property in Mongolia to sell you. Westminster only cares about London and pretty much ignores the rest of the UK.

[TubbersUK]

53. Yes

same goes for the decimated Yorkshire/East Midlands mining communities which I'm familiar with.

[auntpurl]

55. Cornwall voted to Leave and now wants to make sure their EU subsidies will be provided

Seriously. Just

[SheilaT]

78. That's right up there with

Keep your government hands off my Medicare.

[Meldread]

81. That's hilarious.

Some of those communities are just going to be outright devastated and it's their own damn fault.

This is what happens when we let highly uneducated people make decisions about complicated matters. This is why we elect (hopefully competent and qualified) representatives. Allowing people to make uninformed decisions about their future is just going to lead to letting them get fucked over.

...which is what we are going to see happen now. And 9 times out of 10 they are not going to view their actions as mistaken or flawed, and then have regret for them. No, they are going to blame someone else instead of taking personal responsibility for their bad decision.

[uponit7771]

107. EU should pull these first, unfortinaly these pulls wont happen for another two years

[calimary]

155. Oh brother...

indeed.

What is blowing my mind this morning is seeing, in the coverage, reports that people who voted for Brexit didn't fully understand what they were voting for.

But we've never seen that before, in history, have we?

[auntpurl]

158. Yeah, no, I'm sure it's fine.

Rampant nationalism and economic depression in a European country have never led to anything bad.

[The_Editor]

183. Let them eat Sovereignty!

Let them eat Sovereignty!

[Odin2005]

220. Complete and utter morons.

[BlueMTexpat]

80. As you say, it is particularly sad when

some areas that have benefited most from EU investment voted to leave. My Welsh friend, who is appalled by this result, said that the results were definitely counter-intuitive. All the Welsh Labour Reps voted Brexit; it was the Welsh Tories who voted Remain.

Labour definitely voting against its own interests in Wales ... practically inconceivable!

[forjusticethunders]

46. Reccing with the force of a thousand atom smashers.

Brexit was about aggrieved whiteness, not about the economy.

[Surya Gayatri]

48. Comprehensive, point by point exposition of this disastrous referendum result.

The unfounded and ill-informed knee-jerk posts in favor of "Brexit" and of "sticking it to the Establishment" make for painful reading on a "Progressive" forum.

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to set this out in black and white.

Wish I could rec. this 100 times.

[OBrien]

54. You are absolutely right on

I lived there for three years and return often. I know and love the country well and am very concerned for its and all of our futures.

[whatthehey]

56. Thank you

This was a vote fueled first by anti-immigrant fervor, then by nationalist jingoism, and only then by mistaken beliefs about economics, as if a dues imbalance were of the same order of magnitude as the economic gains of access to a free market, including labor mobility, over twice the size of the US.

[auntpurl]

145. Great post.

Couldn't have said it better.

[DetlefK]

58. Thank you.

[AtheistCrusader]

59. If there's anything humans are good at, it's cutting off their nose to spite their face.

This vote will be regretted, but not learned from.

[betsuni]

60. Thank you!

[Bucky]

61. Beautifully done! It's sad, of course, but you've really explained this perfectly

[Solly Mack]

63. K&R

[yardwork]

64. Good OP. Thanks.

[Fast Walker 52]

67. this was my basic impression-- thanks for writing it up nicely!

It is worrisome how right-wing disinfo gets around so easily.

[BlueMTexpat]

70. Thank you, auntpurl!

I cannot K&R this OP enough! I have been appalled by ANYONE on DU who sees this as a GOOD thing and I have been surprised to see how many there are.

This result is a terrible thing for the UK and could very well lead to its complete breakup. I hate seeing this happen to a country from which many of my forefathers came and which, as a student of literature, history, culture, politics and political institutions, etc., I have always loved and admired.

The US RW - as well as the thugs you mention - wanted this result, thinking that it will damage the EU irrevocably. They don't know their history very well. The EU originally began WITHOUT the UK and the EU will continue AFTER the UK's departure. The EU has many problems and many issues to deal with, most recently the Syrian refugee crisis - due primarily to US shenanigans in the ME, rather than to EU policies. But the EU also has a LOT of very committed and dedicated people who will continue to hold it together, despite all the nasties.

I am so sorry that so many in the UK were misled by their political leaders and their worst instincts and voted to leave.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

121. But he EU began as a trading union

yet has grown into a powerful political union.

With more countries becoming dissatisfied with the EU, I think Britain should have waited for critical mass to hit the EU and then reform it from within.

However, believing that does not mean I don't understand why people voted as they did. If you don't understand why people vote the way they do, you can't change their mind.

The EU has grown too powerful. This is not the organization that the EU originally joined in the early seventies.

As long as "remain" made this about xenophobia, they were not going to win these people over. Xenophobia is but a part of it, I'm afraid.

[BlueMTexpat]

137. For real information about the EU, try its own

website. Rather than having information filtered through biased sources or those with other agendas, see what it says about itself. All statements on the site can be supported by fact. http://europa.eu/index_en.htm

See also EU History http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm

Frankly, after this vote, the EU is pretty much ready to wash its hands of the UK altogether and much faster even than Britain has requested. The EU wants to start NEXT WEEK.

The UK may disintegrate much faster than the EU ever will. Neither Scotland nor Northern Ireland voted to leave. Scotland's leaders have already called for another referendum to leave the UK, and a second one will pass. Calls have also been made for Northern Ireland to unite with the Republic of Ireland. While such a union may have longer odds than the Scottish referendum will, Northern Ireland has benefited from EU status and, very astutely, doesn't want to lose it.

In fact, ALL of the UK has benefited from EU status and their political leaders were VERY poor at explaining that. Britain's internal problems, other than xenophobia, have been the result of systemic problems dating from the Thatcher era, exacerbated by recent austerity policies. Those problems exacerbated the xenophobia.

Leaving the EU will not prevent the UK from still having problems with immigration. Anyone who stated that was simply lying outright. In fact, EU authorities on the Continent may be less likely to restrict emigration to the UK when the UK is not a member.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

149. I think there's a good chance that

Scotland will leave, but I don't think that Northern Ireland will.

And I think you and I agree more than disagree on some issues. I'm just able to see that people vote on perception as much as anything, and as long as leaders are unable to adequately change those perceptions, this is what happens.

[BlueMTexpat]

153. We do concur on that

indeed.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

170. Yes.

Unfortunately, the free movement of capital, labor, and people has hit the working class of the first world hard, so, of course, the working class is against the free movement of people.

But that's not the same as hate or racism.

Racism can be a part of that, but if politicians think that's all it is, they are woefully ignorant about their constituents.

[herding cats]

74. Excellent post!

You understand what the UK just did to itself. My heart breaks for the youth there.

[Agnosticsherbet]

79. Thanks. I am tried of seeing BREXIT hailed as a win for progressives.

Nothing Progressive will come from this.

[TubbersUK]

86. I know

those ill-informed rationalisations are driving me potty.

[TubbersUK]

82. K & R n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

84. Thank you for this information.

I just hope it doesn't turn out to be as much of a disaster as I'm afraid it might.

[TonyPDX]

85. Trump is happy about the vote. That's all I need to know. n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

123. He's happy because he thinks the weaker pound means

more people will visit his golf course. He actually said that.

[Meldread]

87. [phone] I am horrified at the pro-Brexit crowd here.

[Native]

92. So glad you decided not to take a break from DU after all, auntpurl - people need to be educated.

Thanks for taking the time to post this much needed information.

[FBaggins]

94. There's always spin in the aftermath of an unexpected vote result -

We don't know that all of this is true.

First of all, many of your statements are based on pre-vote polling that has clearly been demonstrated to have been incorrect.

The vote had the highest national turnout of any in a quarter century and one of the highest ever (which was supposed to favor Remain). It's hard to claim that only older, poorer, less-educated xenophobes voted Leave.

[Cali_Democrat]

95. Great post!

[NoMoreRepugs]

96. outstanding post - I may be over-generalizing here but

I would characterize this vote (and movement) as yet another in a never ending list of conservative ideas/plans/movements that will prove to be a disaster and demonstrate yet again how people can unwittingly vote against their own interests when driven by hate/bigotry/xenophobia/ignorance of reality.

[ancianita]

97. THE best explanation of it all that I've seen yet -- thank you! Hope you don't mind if I

quote you.

Some speculations here, since I live in the US, don't work in financials and only have an in-law who runs the second largest Morgan Stanley office in the Midwest. Isn't it also likely that financial services will remain important for the world because UK could likely realign itself with our upcoming new trade block partners under the TPP? Isn't what they threaten and what they actually do quite often different? Even if they move jobs, wouldn't they also move all their people with those jobs?

Not that I'm happy about any of that, but it's likely that there will be a group plan on this in which corporate and government try to work to do the least damage at their management levels. Could it also be the case that just because Johnson says nothing, doesn't mean there's nothing planned 'out there'? I assume that working class people, misguided or clearheaded, will still fight like hell to hold on to what they've got as trade realignments emerge.

Do you think that the consequences will be severe or softened over the next year?

[auntpurl]

102. Quote away.

Re: moving people with their jobs - maybe, but it will cost the company a lot so will they do it? And even if they do, can people just up and leave the country? Do they have elderly relatives they need to care for, children in school or university, homes that have just drastically lost their value?

The initial financial downturn will soften globally over the year IMO - except for Britain and the EU, which are both going to get smacked. The actual leaving of the EU won't happen for 2 years - but everything in between that time will be fraught, especially because the RW fascists in several other EU countries are now making noises about leaving.

[stevenleser]

100. Preach it sister!

100% right on all counts.

[TreasonousBastard]

103. Good job-- opposition was entirely emotional...

Although there are a few who might be better off, most will find that their freedom of movement, jobs, trade, etc. will suffer. And immigration won't change much after all.

As usual, though, they will not blame any of this on their own choices.

60 years of slow progress down the drain in one idiotic move.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

104. I have a question:

I understand that the exit will actually take about two years. If, in the meantime, it becomes obvious to more people that it was a bad decision, can there be another referendum to reverse it - an un-exit? Who decides to hold a referendum, Commons or all of Parliament or the PM, how does that work?

[auntpurl]

113. Yes, it is possible.

Here's an infographic Credit Suisse put together:



Basically, they have to put Article 50 up for a vote in the Commons - that's the Article that will cause UK to leave EU - the referendum itself is not legally binding. The House, at this point, has no grounds to oppose it as they are supposed to represent their constituencies (and will get voted out if they do). However if, as you say, the economy tanks immediately, that might change. It's the best hope we've got.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

122. Thanks! It's good to know there might be a way out.

I didn't know the referendum wasn't legally binding but advisory - so Commons has to make it official. I just read that the Leavers want Cameron to hurry up the process before his departure but according to the diagram there still could be a second referendum. Will a general election be called?

[auntpurl]

128. Maybe.

Cameron is resigning in October and has said he will put Article 50 off til then, which is smart (ugh, as much as it pains me to admit anything that assclown does is smart) because the economic downturn may be obvious by then, and also people can "sleep it off" and realise what they have just done.

Corbyn is facing a vote of no confidence.

It would be better if a GE were not called because UKIP fascists will be all pumped up to rush to the polls.

The second referendum would be the best outcome; we can't plan on it/count on it, but we can hope.


EDITED TO ADD: I take that back - a GE would be better. As much as I'm dreading it.

[Denzil_DC]

133. It's vanishingly unlikely to happen,

but aside from the possible process in that graphic, two-thirds of MPs could vote to hold a general election immediately (to overcome the fixed-term in office the previous coalition government brought in), and if a party stood on a manifesto of staying in the EU and won a majority, the referendum would be void.

[auntpurl]

151. Thank you for that clarification.

I've been here 8 years, but the specifics of UK elections still baffle me to some degree.

[Denzil_DC]

154. I think I was among the hordes that hit Google HARD in the last 48 hours!

Could MPs block an EU exit?

Could the necessary legislation pass the Commons, given that a lot of MPs - all SNP and Lib Dems, nearly all Labour and many Conservatives - were in favour of staying?

The referendum result is not legally binding - Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act.

The withdrawal agreement also has to be ratified by Parliament - the House of Lords and/or the Commons could vote against ratification, according to a House of Commons library report.

In practice, Conservative MPs who voted to remain in the EU would be whipped to vote with the government. Any who defied the whip would have to face the wrath of voters at the next general election.

One scenario that could see the referendum result overturned, is if MPs forced a general election and a party campaigned on a promise to keep Britain in the EU, got elected and then claimed that the election mandate topped the referendum one.

Two-thirds of MPs would have to vote for a general election to be held before the next scheduled one in 2020.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

[CanSocDem]

136. Thank you for this thread.(eom)

[ymetca]

195. Damned if you do, dawned if you don't...

...appears to be what this flow chart shows.

Ah yes. The triumph of hierarchy over the fickle bell curve of democracy.

Heads I win, tails you lose.

"This is no social crisis, just another tricky day for you."

[Ironing Man]

146. simply, Parliament.

one of the upsides of not having a written constitution is that the Law is whatever Parliament says it is.

so, in the UK referendums are not legally binding - only Parliament is binding. Parliament (the 640+ MP's) can decide to ignore this result if they wish, it would be politically difficult, but there won't be another election for 4 years, and a considerable proportion of those who voted 'leave' don't normally vote - so Parliament could take a veiw that not only will this be ancient history in 2020, but that a sizable number of those who'd be all bent out of shape by their decision won't actually get around to voting them out in revenge. the referendum had a turn out of 72%, the general elections of the last 20-odd years have seen turn outs of around 62-65%.

alternatively, the government could ask parliament to pass another referendum bill on Monday morning - if a majority say yes, then we have another referendum.

another alternative is that we have a general election - Parliament trumps all before it, and one parliament can't legally bind the hands of a successor parliament - so if a majority of the MP's elected at that general election stand on a platform of disregarding the result of the election, (or some fudge which means the same thing..) there is no legal impediment to that Parliament halting/attempting to halt our exit from the EU.

[BootinUp]

105. The fringe or far left rarely attacks the right, instead they attack the left. nt

[uponit7771]

109. +1

[joshcryer]

230. That's where their bread is buttered.

[PatrynXX]

108. If I'm Pro Environment now I'm right wing??

face palm.

The TPP attempted to force UK's hand. They didn't like that very much. Being told to drop environmental laws so American Businesses can do there thing. Sorry. Not going for this one. Glad they made a point on the TPP

[auntpurl]

118. The average Leave voter has literally never heard of the TPP.

I live here. You can choose to believe me or not.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

126. I believe you.

Just like the average Trump voter here has probably never heard of Brexit, or if they have they think it's some kind of snack, like Cheetos.

[muriel_volestrangler]

197. I don't think anyone thinks exit will be good for the environment

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/damian-carrington-blog/2016/jun/24/uks-out-vote-is-a-red-alert-for-the-environment

https://www.foe.co.uk/page/eu-referendum-environment

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/brexit-david-attenborough-eu-referendum-result-environment-latest-news-a7100781.html

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/11/report-highlights-environmental-dangers-of-leaving-eu

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-environmentalists-stress-importance-of-remain-vote-to-britains-countryside-in-open-a7093911.html

https://www.greenparty.org.uk/europe

UKIP, in contrast, was a party that in the 2010 election claimed climate change isn't real.

[yardwork]

242. Pro-environment voters supported Remaining in EU by a huge margin.

Check out the graph in the OP.

[JohnnyRingo]

111. Kick!

Thanx for confirming what I already suspected.

I really didn't think it'd happen. If I did, I'd have sold my stock positions yesterday.

[Nitram]

115. There is a certain DU contingent for whom charges of "neoliberalism" are the knee-jerk response...

...to anything they don't like. They often clearly conflate conservatism and what they call neoliberalism.

[nashville_brook]

260. the OP author admits they don't know what neoliberalism means in this context

which is a shame. quite simply, neoliberalism is the replacement of public service with private for-profit enterprise -- and it's precisely what the OP goes on to cite as a reason for the majority vote (dissatifaction with dissolving public spheres into privatizated schemes which creates inequality).

[liberalmuse]

117. Thank you for this!

I'm a long time DUer and have not been here so much in the last few years. DU has changed. I guess I can't fathom any progressive cheering on Brexit, but there's a lot of that here. It's rather shocking.

[turbinetree]

125. I just have to say ITER Energy ---------------what happens to Britain in this partership

it's kinda of important, they kinda built a prototype of this energy system

[killbotfactory]

127. Conservatives fuck up the economy and safety net with austerity and neoliberal market policies

and then blame it on foreigners.

Why does that seem so familiar?

[auntpurl]

130. Yes, it's a real head scratcher.

[Loki]

135. Do you have anything in place that will nullify this since the framers of this

debacle lied to the people about what it really meant?

[auntpurl]

152. See the subthread above with the Credit Suisse infographic

Several Brits have weighed in and explained it better than I could. Short answer: it's possible, but unlikely.

[Cosmocat]

194. Its what the fuck they do

how people who are not only wrong, but flat fucking wrong, on nearly everything, only come away more cock sure about how right they are is a mystery I doubt I ever will know the answer to.

[ismnotwasm]

132. K&R

[radical noodle]

134. Most awesome rant ever!

You nailed it auntpurl! Bravo!

[underpants]

139. Well said

Rec'd

[BumRushDaShow]

141. K&R

[DrBulldog]

143. Outstanding summary. This needs to be pushed in the mass media.

[msanthrope]

144. Don't bring facts and math into this! nt

[Festivito]

156. 10. The people feel disconnected from wealth and knowledge. They want something to blame.

So, they want something to change. They need a readjustment.

Their reasons and their actions do not have to make sense since it has gone on so long.

In order to be moderately comfortable one must be born wealthy or born intelligent or both or born lucky and with unfaltering health.

So, the stock market went up for a while, and now that dropped during instability. That's not mind boggling. It should be expected. Equillibration will come soon.

[auntpurl]

159. We'll see what will come soon.

Your post is the reason we don't put complicated economic policy up for a general population referendum.

[KPN]

191. Wasn't the Brexit vote that exactly?

[auntpurl]

193. Yes. My point.

[KPN]

200. Ah, yes, my bad.

But how do you avoid that when the tribe's stirred up for a very long time and sees no effective response from its leaders? Double-edged sword.

[Festivito]

207. We don't, but should. eom

[KPN]

177. Yup. We here in the USA are heading down the same path.

Last edited Fri Jun 24, 2016, 01:58 PM - Edit history (1)

My fear is that if the Democratic Party does not embrace economic policies that truly favor the working class in a tangible way, populism of the xenophobic nationalist type will fill that vacuum here as well.

The Democratic Party needs to deal with the split between Third Way "free market" and traditional progressive economic ideologies, or it will lose out to demagoguery.

[Festivito]

208. Exactly. eom

[cyberswede]

160. Thanks for this. Great graphic, too - really makes it clear. nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

162. Excellent post, excellent analysis, excellent information.

Biggest polarization was immigration (which won't change) and multiculturalism (which won't lessen) and social liberalism (which is a domestic political control).

Bunch of fearful, paranoid, bigoted idiots voted Exit.

[niyad]

163. thank you for that excellent summary. will be handy when I have to explain this to

several people I know.

[NastyRiffraff]

164. OUTSTANDING!

This is the best summary of the Brexit mess I've seen. Thank you, auntpurl

Here's a shorter one:
Donald Trump, in Scotland, Calls ‘Brexit’ Result ‘a Great Thing’

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/25/us/politics/donald-trump-scotland.html?_r=0

If Trump applauds it, it must be very bad indeed.

[brer cat]

166. Thank you for this post, auntpurl.

Very informative. k&r

[Jim Beard]

171. Thank you Rupert Murdoch, you have almost completely

destroyed the world with your media propaganda.

[TubbersUK]

179. K & R - because this thread deserves max visibility n/t

[liberalnarb]

181. We took all of our money out of the stock market.

Just in time too.

[fasttense]

182. You are NOT in tune with my reality.

You are quoting the "free" Traders and Neoliberals. (Yes, it is a real thing and your statement that you don't know what it is shows how little you understand.)

Everything you just said can be found being repeated often at Wall Street banks like Morgan Stanley and on the corporate media.

Yes the crazy right wing has managed to, yet again, jump on an issue that appeals to the average person while liberals are all saying what you are saying. It's like the immigration issue. Liberals are suppose to be for labor and unions yet the more poor and hungry immigrants you let into your country, the more wages drop, the fewer jobs available for low income workers. True building a stupid wall will never solve anything what will solve the problem is huge fines and prison time for illegal Employers. But of course this would upset the rich.

So the right wing crazies say look those foreign people who look different are taking your jobs and causing wages to plummet. You should hate them. While at the same time the right wing crazies are taking money from all those illegal employers who only very rarely are held accountable. And if we keep them illegal, then the rich can exploit them even more.

Look the EU did NOTHING to stop the economic crash. It instead shoved austerity down the people's throat and crashed Greece. In a heartless loans uber all maneuver they made one of the poorest nations in Europe pay through the nose.

The EU also makes it easier for uber rich multinational corporations and banks to control countries. It allows banks and corporations to pay off a handful of EU leaders to control most of Europe.

Liberals have differing opinions on immigration and they have differing opinions on the EU. You can have another opinion of EU and still be a liberal. We are Democrats and NOT RepubliCONS we don't have to march in lockstep.

[KPN]

189. Thank you!

While I'm not absolutely sure what you meant about differing opinions on immigration, I agree with most of what you said. It's really a lot simpler than we allow it to be -- largely because of the current fascist nature of our political system.

[joshcryer]

231. "But not all of us disagree with the fascists!"

That's quite a unique argument there.

[Hekate]

184. After watching the world markets drop like a rock I finally had a stiff drink and went to bed

A bad phone call woke me up half an hour ago -- so now that I'm awake I'm trying to reorient myself and ... DU must have had some kind of psychotic episode from the looks of your post.

Auntpurl:

1. Thank you for that very cogent contribution. I'm reoriented, all right
2. Bookmarking your post
3. I'm going to make about a gallon of strong coffee now
4. Seriously, by the time I finished watching Christiane Amanpour's interview with that Finch guy I realized Trump's ilk are all over the place, and we could end up sucked into a war in Europe
5. Coffee

[RazBerryBeret]

185. thank you

for this informative and intelligent post.

[dsharp88]

187. Great post!

Pretty much tells you everything you need to know about the vote.

[mcar]

188. Big kick!

Thank you for this reality auntpurl.

[KPN]

196. Sounds to me like just more neoliberal thinking. The stuff that has gotten us

to where we currently are. A divided Democratic Party, a broken failed Republican Party. A middle class in decline and increasing poverty.

There is absolutely no reason why we cannot do a better job of taking care of our working/middle class in the US while still accepting the reality of globalism. Instead of fighting each other, we should be jointly focused on eradicating the fascist forces that dominate our current political and governance systems.

[hueymahl]

201. Disagree with point three - at least some socialist thinkers on the left favored leaving

http://socialistreview.org.uk/404/eu-referendum-should-we-stay-or-should-we-go

It is a nuanced argument, but basically it boils down to the EU was originally conceived and backed by large corporate interests as a way to ease access to markets and exploit a larger labor pool; because a large trans-national labor pool is bad for workers generally, they support leaving the EU. This is a huge oversimplification of their positions, so I encourage you to read the article.

This argument is compelling to me, and undercuts your assertions in points 5 & 6 also.

[GusBob]

203. AUNTPURL FOR PM !!!!!

God save auntie!!!!

[auntpurl]

204. I'm not even allowed to vote.

But you know, if I'm called upon to serve, etc etc.

[lillypaddle]

205. Very nice OP

[truebrit71]

206. Absolutely spot on.

Couldn't have said it better.

This vote is an unmitigated disaster that will play out in pain and suffering for so many fir years to come...

[arendt]

211. You can't disappear "neoliberalism" under the label "conservative".

2. This result was NOT caused by dissatisfaction with "neoliberalism" whatever the hell THAT is supposed to mean in this context. All the austerity measures have come under the conservative government, and the complete decimation of UK manufacturing and blue collar jobs happened under Thatcherism (another Conservative). They very successfully blamed the EU for it with the help of the media.

First of all, Thatcher ("there is no such thing as society.&quot was a founding member of neoliberalism in the UK. She created the Big Bang for The City. She started privatizing everything. Those are neoliberal policies from a neoliberal politician.

The current "conservative" government continues to be deeply in bed with The City and all the financial garbage that has been foisted on Britain.

In case you haven't noticed, "austerity" is a neoliberal policy - loved by neoliberals from Berlin to Brussels.

I am getting very tired of "There is no such thing as neoliberalism" speeches. It is part of the success of neoliberalism to pretend that there is no such thing, merely the free market doing its job - by capturing the government and privatizing it to death.

This post is not about Brexit. It is about your cynical misuse of that event to pretend that there is no such thing as neoliberalism.

[auntpurl]

212. ...ok.

[arendt]

213. Meaning what? Agree? Don't give a shit? What? n/t

[Skeeter Barnes]

227. Some can't accept the word "liberal" being associated with anything bad. They just

shut it out. You might as well explain it to a brick wall.

[arendt]

221. This fight was pretty much Tory-on-Tory. Corbyn was "remain". But it really was about neoliberalism.

There are many reasons the EU sucks, but top of the list is its imposition of anti-democratic neoliberal polices like austerity.

How the European Union Turned Into a Neoliberal Nightmare

Workers across Europe are rallying against a union which has used its undemocratic structures to force neoliberalism on a continent.

I am sure you will telll me that I am a racist for pointing this out. But the EU was all set for the upcoming corporate coup d'etat via the TTIP. Maybe Brexit will sink that deal. That is not a bad thing. Just like Brexit, globalist corporate coups are not reversible.

TTIP: UK will be powerless against trade deal outside EU, say campaigners

TTIP is ‘template for world trade’ and only way to stop it is at European level, campaigners warn

[joshcryer]

234. Calling everything neoliberalism is scare mongering.

The Leave campaign itself was the neoliberal approach disguised as the exact opposite. Slandering the many LIBERAL aspects of British society and pretending that they were the fault their own neoliberal policy.

Start austerity, blame the mostly liberal government (civil society, not the party in charge, the old lady that rushes your NHS filling because you have a toothache type of person). Simultaneously blame the bankers and the elite. It can't be both, but somehow it is.

Put immigration as a major focus, pressure the lowest classes to revolt push their greatest fears. This is the neoliberal approach.

[NuclearDem]

238. Neoliberal skellingtons under your bed!

BOO

[arendt]

239. You must be joking. This is an ignorant, juvenille comment. n/t

[saidsimplesimon]

214. mighty pretty words auntpurl

You are anything but common. K&R brava, may we share this with others?

The only winners appear to be hedge fund managers, those who profit from gold and short sellers. The impact on anyone invested in a 401K could be a loss to their pension of amounts equal to or greater than the 2008 banking debacle. Just what I am reading.

Interesting times

[auntpurl]

215. "May you live in interesting times" - Chinese curse

Share away.

[Odin2005]

217. 71% of "leave" voters hate the internet???

Oh my!!!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

283. No. You have not read it clearly. You misunderstand the presentation. Read it again. nt

[nadine_mn]

219. Google reported that searches for "what is the EU" spiked AFTER the vote

After voting, that's when people decided "oh hey, I guess I should see what I voted for".

Thanks for your analysis. I was lucky to be listening to the Majority Report when Sam Seder had a guest on who went into great detail about the EU, its history and how Great Britain finally got involved and what the Brexit would mean.

It was so refreshing to actually hear information instead of stupid soundbites.

[BlindTiresias]

224. Neo-liberalism is right wing

It is referring to economic liberalism, which is unrestricted freedom of markets and business owners to operate as they please. It is called "neo" liberalism because it is the modern expression of the classical liberal ideology of unrestricted markets and zero/few business regulations and government welfare programs.

[sendero]

233. Yes and the EU neoliberals..

... want to privatize EVERYTHING, railroads, health care, EVERYTHING.

We ALL know what happens when you do that, give private interests a monopoly and they will milk the populace for every last cent. Kind of like the US healthcare system right now.

And I don't know Lord Ashton from Adam so forgive me if I don't take the poll with the pretty graphics very seriously.

[YOHABLO]

277. you left out: exploitation of cheap labor, and eradicate unions

[lakercub]

225. Ireland

Not being in the UK, I haven't heard but I would assume there is some worry now about the stability of Ireland. With Northern Ireland voting to stay, will this revitalize the movement to bring the whole of the island back to one Ireland? The IRA has been a non issue (at least as observed from the outside world) for years, but will this vote start to bring back that kind of Irish nationalism? It would seem this vote would lend itself to a weakening of the association of Britain to Northern Ireland and that could have all kinds of backlash, including, at the worst, a recurrence of much of the violence that has been only recently quelled.

Am I reading too much into this?

[auntpurl]

229. No, you are absolutely not reading too much into it.

The land border alone makes it an extremely tricky issue.

[anigbrowl]

250. A total disaster

The Irish economy is massively dependent on the UK and is now set to go into recession alongside its newly 'liberated' neighbor. This is going to put massive strain on the relationship with Northern Ireland and will likely be exploited by paramilitary extremists on both sides.

[etherealtruth]

232. This has got to be so upsetting for you ....

.... hoping beyond hope that this goes better than than it seems

It is quite interesting to read posts from DU members from the UK ....

[rocktivity]

235. Posts like this make me fall in love in DU

all over again!











rocktivity

[Raster]

236. Aunt Purl, thanks for the most informative post!

[Rex]

240. Great rant, but you really should learn what neo-liberalism is, since it is a major cause

of frustration and confusion among the working class. Also, progressives support fair trade not free trade. Free trade is what you see in countries that treat their workers like slaves.

Greedy rich people got us into this mess and they refuse to take responsibility. People in the UK watched the working class in Greece get kicked around by the EU like a wounded dog. That scared a lot of low information voters into voting against their best self-interests.

Sadly we do that all the time in America, that needs to change.

[anigbrowl]

249. I would trust Auntpurl's economic opinions far more than yours...

Suggesting that she doesn't know what neoliberalism is reminds me of that kid who's just discovered the dictionary and goes about correcting everybody.

[Rex]

258. So you didn't read her OP where she says she doesn't know what it is?

Wow...that says more about you then you probably wanted to let on.

[roamer65]

241. The referendum is non-binding.

If your leaders choose to just ignore it, they can.

I'm surprised Cameron didn't.

[muriel_volestrangler]

245. If he ignored it, his party would throw him out, and elect a leader as PM who will exit the EU

That's how a parliamentary system works. It's like the Speaker in the House, if that helps - they need the support of a majority of their party, and can be removed. Depending on the party rules, they might have to wait for a yearly conference, or they might be able to do it quicker; if those who want the leader gone can get the support of opposition parties, they can chuck them out almost at once.

[roamer65]

251. I understand the parliamentary system.

I am just surprised Cameron didn't act like the little dictator he has always seemed to be. I honestly didn't think he would resign.

[muriel_volestrangler]

253. Then he never would have risked the referendum in the first place

It would have been far easier to come up with excuses to not hold the referendum in the first place, or to not have made a promise before the general election to hold it, if he was only thinking of doing what he wanted. He was pushed into it by the currents in his party and the British right wing in general.

[colsohlibgal]

243. Agree Totally

This vote was driven by the same nativism and anti "others" that has propelled a bozo reality caricature to the brink of the republican nomination.

[Spazito]

247. Excellent OP!

Very informative and educational as to the true facts on this issue. Thank you.

[swhisper1]

254. Good riddance to Morgan Stanley, I wish we could get rid of them

interesting presentation, but does it explain the other countries now voicing divorce? No.

I'm sure the English banks can take up the slack Morgan stanley leaves behind. They are more efficient and dont steal as badly as MS.

[roamer65]

256. Reports are the UK is going to be offered "associate member" status in the EU.

It was Berlin's plan B if "Brexit" won the referendum. So Britain gets 2 years to negotiate it and basically do an "a'la carte" deal with the EU.

The deal came from Germany. See who controls the EU? It didn't come from Paris or Rome.

[TubbersUK]

276. Could you point me towards the reports please? n/t

[malaise]

257. Excellent post

Cameron is an idiot

[MrScorpio]

259. Thanks for the break down nt

[Chico Man]

263. The “Black Mirror” episode that imagined David Cameron’s dalliance with a pig

http://qz.com/506490/the-black-mirror-episode-that-imagined-david-camerons-dalliance-with-a-pig/

[Stand and Fight]

264. Excellent write up of the situation.

Thank you for posting this. It should be required reading.

[L. Coyote]

266. Media coups are becoming a norm around the world. Brazil the best example.

The media is driving the politics with propaganda, altering how people think and act politically. We need better propaganda that the plutocratic corporate forces.

[hill2016]

270. well

#1. is irrelevant. No matter how or why the vote was called, it has taken place and a majority of voters have spoken.

#2. The results was caused by people who wanted out from the EU compact. Open trades requires free borders. People collectively weighted the pros and cons and decided one way.

#3. Are you absolutely sure that nobody on the Left could possibly be upset at the free borders of the EU resulting in immigration to the UK?

#4. Agree but so what? Everybody gets one vote. Unless you believe some votes should count more than others?

#5. I believe in the right of a people to self-determination. I think that's the most progressive ideal above all else?

#6. No arguments but refer to #1 and #5.
#7. No arguments but refer to #1 and #5.
#8. Refer to #5. Is it not possible to support the same outcome for different reasons? Didn't both FDR and Stalin team up to beat Germany?
#9. Didn't Remain lie as well about getting more concessions from the EU? The EU that right now is discussing how to kick the UK out as soon as possible? Nobody's hands are perfectly clean.

[PaulaFarrell]

274. Thanks for this thread

Really can't believe the way some people are trying to twist what this vote was really about.