I have very mixed feelings about Brexit

[Armstead]

On one hand, it is partially a result of bigotry and xenophobia.That is bad news

But it is also a populist revolt against the elites who have gutted the economy for workers while enriching the coffers of Global Corporate Empires and Banksters.

It was a giant public rejection of usual stranglehold of "elite conventional wisdom" that has undermined democracy and broadly based economies.

Every sword is usually double-edged. This one is no exception, IMO.

[Agnosticsherbet]

1. I keep hearing that argument, I just don't buy it.

British youth and the college educated overwhelmingly voted to say. As you can see from the image, the vote was anti-liberal, anti-progressive, pro-regressive, anti-immigrant.

[Agschmid]

6. Yup.

[Armstead]

10. I said double-edged sword....and attidues are complex and paradoxical

Chucky Todd, of all people, summed it up pretty well. He cited the fact that many different factors contributed to this, including the chaos engendered by the turmoil in the Middle East.

He referred to that old saying about the web of effects when a butterfly flaps its wings.

It is possible that a post Brexit Britan will elect right wing pigs. But it is also possible they will elect progressive politicians. Or a mix of both.

But bottom line is that the long process of boiling the lobsters, who don't notice until they die was briefly interrupted. What is done with that is anybody's guess -- but it was at least interrupted and long-simmering issues have to be dealt with.

[lapfog_1]

26. the voters were lied to and hoodwinked

It was written on the bloody bus and Farage says it was a 'mistake' to promise money to the NHS. They LIED.

[socialist_n_TN]

27. Hey, they're right-wingers. If their lips are moving.......

they're lying. One of these days people will discover that. I hope it's not too late for all of us.

[lapfog_1]

28. There are many here who think Brexit was a blow to corporatization

and globalization.

They are cheering the result.

But this twitter post pretty much sums up the reality,

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ft-reader-comment-eu-referndum-brexit-sums-um_uk_576d0185e4b0d25711496124?edition=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk

[socialist_n_TN]

33. Yeah, I've got some aquaintenances who think this.........

in the socialist left. And they had some good arguments to support their stand. But my comrades supported "Remain" for equally good reasons or better. Mostly because this vote will encourage the right-wing and proto-fascist forces in Europe.

[truebrit71]

37. That nails it.

They are about to reap the whirlwind....

[lapfog_1]

38. We now live in a post factual democracy

When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off of aliens.

---

The USA is maybe even worse of when it comes to fact free claims being made by racist isolationist demagogues

[tk2kewl]

19. in reality most people don't fit neatly in a demographic bin

Disaffected working people who don't completely understand why or how they are being screwed could just as easily be brought into our camp if we offered some hope of an unfucked future. Austerity and joblessness in the face of rampant wealth concentration is not that hope.

call out and condemn hate, racism and xenophobia, but don't simply dismiss individuals and groups of people who are being screwed and searching for answers.

My take anyway...

[Agnosticsherbet]

21. Racism and Xenophobia are a major part of this vote, not to mention rampant

ignorance.

[Armstead]

25. I was watching the BBC today....

They had a report from some seaside town that voted to Leave.

The reporter said he had interviewed townspeople who said that many felt displaced by an influx of new immigrants, and they felt they were being crowded out. In addition, the owners of businesses that had previously employed local people were bringing in foreign workers at lower salaries instead.

Simple bigotry, or people being pushed to their limits of tolerance by social and economic forces?

No easy answers sometimes.

[Else You Are Mad]

2. It is sad...

The only reason the leave vote won was because the UK still has hand counted paper ballots. If they had electronic voting machines, I have no doubt the vote would have been for Remain.

It goes to show that paper ballots help ensure democracy -- whether for good or bad.

[yourpaljoey]

4. Agreed

[treestar]

42. Those can be excuses the bigots use

no one tests how true they are.

[Else You Are Mad]

44. Well, the 'bigots' won...

So, we will see if the elites overturn the will of the people... Then the 'bigots' will be correctly upset about such.

[TransitJohn]

3. Hopefully it forces a mature discussion of both the pros and cons of globalization. eom

n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. Right wing populism was fashionable in the '30s, too.

Fortunately, it didn't catch on here.

[Zynx]

7. However, it's misdirected anger.

Britain's industrial losses weren't primarily due to trade with Europe and they certainly weren't due to European immigration. If you can put that causal link together, more power to you. Trade with much less developed countries than anything on the continent (aside from bit players like Bulgaria) has a lot more to do with their ills. They simplified all of their anger into a single point.

[Armstead]

13. You may be right.

It's an unfortunate pattern of history that we seldom do anything about anything until forced to by upheavals.


The point is that people feel powerless in the face of massive combinations of forces.

We seldom stand up to those, and instead just let things simmer. Sometimes, wake up calls are necessary..

[Brickbat]

8. Rejecting the EU for Westminster is hardly getting rid of "elite conventional wisdom."

[truebrit71]

11. No shit.

They've simply changed the location of their over-seers..

[Agschmid]

23. Yup.

[auntpurl]

24. A hearty THIS nt

[SoLeftIAmRight]

9. "mixed feelings"

smart people that are informed and a little wise - have mixed feelings about this

[katsy]

12. I was thinking the same thing.

When tptb want all the money AND all the power... comes the backlash.

The rw uses fear of "the other" and hatred for anyone "not us" to stoke anger. Then the elites, who may as well be living on mars for all they know of the hardships their policies inflict on ordinary people, implement unfair trade deals. Perfect storm.

All parties involved are perfectly wrong.

The politicians perfectly ignore an effective & fair safety net for all workers.

They perfectly do not ensure that earnings aren't just a race to the bottom, but a fair assessment of the workers contribution to society.

The capitalists view profit as their only goal & divorce themselves from the society they were once a member of. Labor has no seat at that table.

Oh you can try to have it all... the power & the money concentrated at the top. But only for so long because it will always, always cause an ugly backlash.

You want a healthy society? Take the power or the money. But not both. Either give the workers the money or give them power over the direction of their communities. That's a successful formula for peace. At least IMO.

[Armstead]

15. I agree with part of that...But I see it as sharing both the power and the money more equitably

[katsy]

16. Idk why my blinders were on.

Wish i had considered that.

You are correct.

[LWolf]

14. As do I. nt

[Bad Thoughts]

17. Anti-Internationalism is not the same as Anti-Globalization

The former is more primal and more easily conservative and reactionary.

[Surya Gayatri]

18. Sorry, no. Rupert Murdoch's gutter print media and Fox News twin, ITV, have been whipping up

anti-Europe, anti-immigrant sentiment for decades. This ill-judged, foolhardy referendum campaign allowed them to push it to never-before-seen levels.

No, zenophoia, bigotry, racism and neo-fascism are the culprits, not a "revolt against corporations and the elite".

[Armstead]

20. Excessive economic pressures add to bad instincts in the population

It's not always clearcut

[Surya Gayatri]

22. Granted...point taken.

Unfortunately, just as Reaganism is still wreaking havoc on America's working and middle classes 30 years on, the same is true of Thatcherism in the UK.

[socialist_n_TN]

30. Well, that's definitely what it wound up as.....

And my group supported "Remain" BECAUSE of those reasons. But there were some good arguments on the LExit side of things too. Unfortunately, those arguments got outshouted by the racists and proto-fascist right wing.

[Hoyt]

29. New meaning to the old saying -- "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face."

[Surya Gayatri]

32. Or, as somebody put it in another thread: Curing the ingrown toenail by amputating the leg.

[socialist_n_TN]

31. Same here. My comrades in the UK supported "Remain"........

but other socialist groups supported the Brexit and had some good arguments in their favor. It was definitely a mixed bag.

Now I'm just wondering if this is the push that tips the world economy into the next recession.

[pampango]

34. It's a right wing 'populist revolt' of older, more conservative voters led by

Neal Farage of UKIP who is an anti-immigrant right winger and Boris Johnson who may succeed Cameron as Prime Minister. Johnson's goal is to turn the UK into a "neoliberal fantasy island" and a "hyper-capitalist island freed from EU regulation".

Replacing the EU's worker and environmental protections with "hyper-capitalism" does not seem aimed to harm the 1%.

I don't see a double-edged sword - just a single-edged conservative one.

[Armstead]

40. Which edge would depend on what poiticians are elected

They can elect good progressive politicians to fill thevoid, or shitty right wing ones.

That's up to them. I don't think everyone who supported this would also automatically vote for right wing cranks, and there was a mix of motives involved.

[pampango]

45. I think that human rights, labor rights and environmental rights should not be subject

to the whim of caliber of politicians that get elected.

I would prefer that "shitty right wing" politicians not have the power to strip away these rights. That may be "undemocratic". So be it.

[Armstead]

57. Shitty unaccountable conservative bureaucrats are just as bad

[Person 2713]

51. Yeo "thanks grandpa".....

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-results-age-data-young_uk_576cd7d6e4b0232d331dac8f?edition=uk

[tandem5]

35. but it's kind of like saying that the identification of institutional problems is somehow...

Last edited Fri Jun 24, 2016, 08:11 PM - Edit history (1)

a solution in and of itself when in fact it is only just that, a recognition, which is maybe a good first step, but a knee jerk reaction of cutting out a tumor is not likely to cure the underlying systemic cancer.

In the case of America, a populist movement that elects a top ballot individual isn't likely to send a message or wrest free a stranglehold. It is the same ol' story: engaging in uncomfortably boring and anti-adhd requiring work that examines how our representatives are appointed in each branch of government and then implementing reform there would bring about real change. For example tackling the very complex and corruptible congressional district drawing across our country would have a huge impact on our national political landscape, but the work and focus involved would be equally monumental.

If populism can't be harnessed to tackle complexity then maybe it's not really a signal that something's wrong; maybe its just another component of what is wrong.

[Armstead]

39. Or we can elect good people with the smarts and correct intentions to...

represent us and work on the details.

That's the theory of representative government -- the "good people with smarts and correct intentions" is the key to that.

[tandem5]

47. And that's one main utility of a republic, to counter uninformed populism...

Last edited Sat Jun 25, 2016, 02:39 PM - Edit history (1)

and in this case the UK's parliament is within its right to overrule this referendum.

I'm not advocating that every voter familiarize herself with procedural nuance as it pertains to every bill that comes along, but to return to my one example about gerrymandering, it is sort of difficult to elect good people when the electorate has been hand picked to select the corrupt one. I'm not necessarily saying that an individual should take on a redistricting board directly, but to even hope to affect change we need voters that are aware and informed especially at the state and local levels and popular zeal doesn't usually translate to long-term resolve to understand a larger, complete picture of the political landscape.

[daleo]

36. Sometimes people can make the right choice for the wrong reasons

This is a rebuke of global capitalism, though many adherents of the position are motivated by bigotry and isolationism.

Conversely, many adherents of international labour arbitrage via exploitive global capitalism disguise their true motivations in a warm blanket of international egalitarianism and fellow feeling, when they just want a cheap and compliant workforce.

[roamer65]

41. Britain is now in good position for the upcoming 3rd Greek bailout.

I would tell that POS Juncker that invoking Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty depends on his actions.

Play a little poker here, UK folks.

Trust me, with the upcoming 3rd Greek bailout and impending European bank crisis...you will be happy in one year that you have this referendum in your hip pocket.

There will be other countries heading for the door soon.

[Else You Are Mad]

46. And...

Even if article 50 is evoked, it isn't permanent nor is the two year timeline have a strict deadline. That is, article 50 also gives the framework on how to re-join the EU. So, you have a good point that this could be a good negotiating point. Junker is, incorrectly, stating this is the end of the relation of the UK and the EU.

[roamer65]

48. Juncker is an undemocratic drunkard.

Germany itself has offered "associate membership" to the UK, according to reports. Apparently they had "plan B" all ready to go.

Shows that Berlin is the true power in charge of the EU, not Juncker or Schulz.

[Else You Are Mad]

50. Exactly.

And, that is a large part of why the UK wanted out, it was their local power was being usurped by unelected beaurocrats in Brussels and not just because the majority of the UK residents are unintelligent, racists.

[MerryBlooms]

43. My only thought so far has been shock. I didn't think the vote would go Brexit.

I have no idea how this how this disentangling will unfold. I'm pretty sure all the 'experts', on msm are talking out their collective ass.

Whatever happens, man, what an incredible unexpected turn.

[Spider Jerusalem]

49. Oh for fuck's sake

"populist revolt against elites"...no, it wasn't. Have you actually followed the campaign, at all? Are you aware of who exactly was leading the "Leave" campaign? Nigel Farage, former City broker and public schoolboy (NB this means that he went to a private boarding school), and Boris Johnson (Old Etonian, Oxford graduate, Bullingdon Club member). A lot of the leaders of the "Leave" campaign WERE elites. And it wasn't a "revolt against elites", it was a reactionary backlash against immigration. The Leave campaign was using posters like this:



I'm REALLY getting kind of sick of seeing generally ignorant and ill-informed Americans who know jack-all about the politics, the issues, and the campaign giving their witless opinions of how it's a "revolt against elites".

[Number23]

52. Well said.

[Armstead]

53. Oh fer fucks sake yourself

Did you read the Op?

I haven't the time but have someon expkain to you whst "mixed feelings" means.

[Spider Jerusalem]

54. Yeah, I read it

and half of your "mixed feelings" are based on bullshit.

[Armstead]

55. You're entitled to your opinion

Just don't assume people who don't agree with you are all ignorant

[Spider Jerusalem]

56. I live in the UK, I've seen this firsthand

I'm pretty sure you're ignorant.

[Armstead]

58. I'm a longtime BBC listener and watcher....

I know that a lot of shitty elements were involved in the Leave movement

Once again have someone explain mixed feelings to you

[Spider Jerusalem]

59. which hardly makes you as informed about the UK as someone who lives there.

And your bullshit "neoliberalism" "striking back at elites" blah blah is nothing more than nonsense that has very little to do with most of the arguments and reasons I've heard for why people voted to leave.