On MSNBC yesterday a prominent Stonewall Veteran said, 'Rifles are instruments of hate.'

[onehandle]

This gentleman was talking about the weapons used in the Orlando shooting. He was going to skip the Stonewall events this year, but felt compelled to attend because of Orlando.

[craigmatic]

1. Anything can be an instrument of hate. Internet can be an instrument of hate.

[Press Virginia]

2. Murders by rifles have been dropping. The number was 248 in 2014(most recent number)

down from over 300 in 2009

Knives, on the other hand, are used to kill over 1000/yr
Hands/feet over 600/yr
Blunt weapons over 500/yr

[onehandle]

7. Nuancing numbers is more important than fighting hate against the LGBT community.

Got it.

Please proceed...

[Press Virginia]

8. Nuancing? Those are FBI statistics on homicides

I'll bet more of the LBGT community was murdered by blunt objects and hands/feet than rifles.

[Duckhunter935]

10. True facts are nuancing?

[Orrex]

12. Let's crunch those numbers

How many civilian knives are in the country? Probably 10 or 20 or 50 times as many civilian rifles. And how often are knives used, compared to how often rifles are used? The per-use incidence of lethality is several orders of magnitude lower for knives than for rifles.

How many hands/feet are in the country?

How many blunt weapons?


While we're at it, how has the overall incidence changed for injuries caused by rifles, rather than simply focusing on deaths?

[Press Virginia]

13. When the numbers don't go your way, just move the goal post

The FBI doesn't track that...but they do tell us that guns aren't the primary weapons in robberies and assaults so it's highly likely that knives, blunt objects and hands/feet cause more injuries than do rifles.

[Orrex]

14. Are you talking to me or to yourself?

Gun-advocates love to cite the number of guns (or gun owners) compared to the number of gun-murders on any given day, week or year. If they really believe in that argument, then let them consider the real implications of it and account for the number of knives, fists & blunt objects relative to the frequency of their use as murder weapons.

Or if you're talking about my injury/lethality question, it's not moving the goalposts at all. Gun advocates would have us believe that shootings are on the decline overall, but they have no numbers to back that up, so it's a declaration of faith.

It may be the case that fatal shootings are on the decline, and they either attribute this to the 15M guns added to the pool each year, or else they claim that it's proof that more guns do not cause more deaths. In fact, the real situation is much less clear. Better medical intervention might prevent more fatalities than in previous years, for instance, or we might be seeing fewer potentially fatal shootings.

Ultimately, you can't produce figures to document the number of shootings, and you can't verify the reasons for the reduction in fatalities. In short, the only claim that can reasonably be made is that firearms are involved in 100% of shootings.

I know that it would be convenient for gun-advocates if we were in fact moving the goalposts, but that's obviously not the case here.

[Press Virginia]

16. See? When the numbers don't add up you want to expand the data set. It's the same reason

suicides and accidental deaths are constantly lumped in with the homicide numbers.
Faced with the fact that the 75% of assaults don't use guns you state we don't know how many shootings there really are...

Despite your fear and hysteria, rifles aren't a threat to the public like knives, blunt instruments and hands/feet are.
Even shotguns kill more people

[Orrex]

17. You're gerrymandering

By your reasoning, rifles kill fewer people in some specific context. If we pin you down for details, you'll no doubt seek to distinguish semiautomatic rifles from bolt action or whatever, in a further effort to derail the discussion.

Even if we accept your skewed sampling methods, you can't simply pretend that the overall count/lethality ratio is the same between rifles and knifes/fists/blunt instruments. The latter outnumber the former so hugely that the comparison is pointless--and that's according to gun-advocates' own claims that guns are statistically safe based on their total numbers.

And before you pretend that it's dishonest to link gun suicides and gun murders, let's remember that gun-advocates invariably lump all vehicular deaths together. What's the annual number of deliberate vehicular homicides, and how does that compare to overall vehicles in the country? How many vehicular suicides? And how does that compare to the overall number of vehicles? And before you start up about accidental vehicular deaths, we need to factor in the frequency of deaths compared to the frequency of vehicular use.

You want to dismiss it as shifting the goalposts, but in fact it's simply a matter of looking at the numbers and considering what they actually mean.

[Press Virginia]

18. No. Rifles are used to murder fewer people. Background checks can't stop accidents

Or suicides and neither have anything to do with gun violence, which gun control advocates claim to want reduced.

Faced with the fact that the very target of you outrage kills 5x fewer people than knives do, you start muddying up the waters.

You don't care about the facts

[Orrex]

19. If you believe that suicides have nothing to do with gun violence...

then you seriously have no business discussing guns or gun safety.

Faced with the fact that the very target of you outrage kills 5x fewer people than knives do, you start muddying up the waters.

That is so grossly dishonest that I can't imagine why you keep beating on that point. At minimum, there are probably 50X as many knives in this country as there are firearms, and knives are used daily in much greater numbers than are firearms. By any sane measure, knives have a much lower rate of lethality than firearms. This is an undeniable fact that you conveniently ignore because you think it serves your NRA-friendly agenda.

We're done here.

[Press Virginia]

20. I suggest you look up the word violence

when you're finished with that, you can look up the number of suicides in this country. Only 1/3 use a gun to kill themselves.
That should tell you it's not a gun issue its a mental health issue.

you keep trying to bring ratios into this rather than admit the obvious. Rifles aren't the weapon of choice for murderers

[Orrex]

21. You want to pretend that rifles are the entirety of the issue.

Or that they're entirely separate from it, like some magical beast that should never be associated with other firearms.

No doubt that's from the current NRA playbook, but it's every bit as silly as the claim that knives are more lethal than firearms--a claim that I'm certain you don't believe despite the fact that you've repeated it multiple times.

[Press Virginia]

23. Hahahahaha! The OP was a quote about rifles. AWBs are about rifles

All I did was post the FBI stats on what weapons are used to murder people.

[Orrex]

24. But you're pretending that there's no further discussion to be had

In other words, your entire objection is based on the fact that you can't accept that a discussion might expand beyond its initial subject.

[Press Virginia]

26. I'm addressing the OP with facts.

[ileus]

3. Odd....mine are instruments of family fun, sounds like his heart is in the wrong place.

Being on call this weekend, probably means a family outing around 7:30 tonight to the range. Thanks for the idea.

[Press Virginia]

4. It's an statement made from ignorance of actual statistics

and sensationalized coverage of shootings where a certain rifle is used

[Bluenorthwest]

5. Words are the ultimate insturment of hate. Words change with context.

The context of this thread the response of a long time activist to a mass murder and how that relates to celebrations of Pride and remembrance of history such as Stonewall which was a police riot against LGBT.
But for you, the thread is all about you. And that is a mighty statement in and of itself.

[Hoyt]

6. +1.

[Press Virginia]

9. You got all that from a sentence about rifles?

[Skittles]

41. not a big surprise

[Skittles]

40. that is pretty fucking sad

[Just reading posts]

45. How so/

[Duckhunter935]

11. The internet is much worse

And I think more lgbt are killed by beatings than rifles

[hunter]

15. Gun fetishes are disgusting.

In the U.S.A. guns have been used as instruments of hate and oppression for so long nothing will redeem them.

Every gun fetishist is a potential terrorist, suicide, or horrible tragedy waiting to happen.

Fondling and defending instruments of death and oppression, imaging situations where one is forced to shoot some amorphous imaginary "bad guy" in "self defense" is not a healthy obsession.

[Orrex]

22. Careful--you're likely to get a lecture from some high-minded gun advocate

And I wouldn't be surprised if someone alerts on your post.

[hack89]

27. Fortunately for me none of that applies to me

I just like to shoot holes in pieces of paper.

[hunter]

30. Some smokers just like to smoke.

It's still a public health hazard and strict regulations, even to the point of severely inconveniencing smokers, are very appropriate.

[hack89]

32. Does every smoker have a tobacco fetish? nt

Last edited Sun Jun 26, 2016, 02:03 PM - Edit history (1)

[hunter]

33. Smoking fetishes are disgusting. Piss on cigarettes.

Or pipes, or cigars...

I remember when I was a kid people smoked in the supermarkets. They'd drop their used butts on the floor and smash them with their toes. Even in the produce section... ugh, all that smoke on the fresh produce. The floors had to be swept clear of butts and ashes constantly.

People smoked in restaurants too.

You couldn't rent a non-smoking motel room, much less a room in a non-smoking motel.

Yep, tobacco fetishes are disgusting. Anyone who would encourage children to smoke is a monster.

As gun love becomes socially unacceptable, as it is now in many communities, the law will follow.

The second amendment is an ugly relic of the 18th century, just as slavery was. It's past time we recognized that.

Gun fetishes are not progressive in any way.

[hack89]

35. So does "gun love" equal all gun ownership?

Last edited Sun Jun 26, 2016, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)

or are you talking about a subset of gun owners?

[hunter]

36. I'm sure smoking has some positive aspects...

... but not any I'd promote.

Prohibition doesn't work for alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, or guns.

But none of these dangerous habits should be celebrated.

Piss on guns.

[hack89]

37. ok. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

38. You couldn't piss on MY guns even if you tried. They're locked against children and crazy people.

[YoungDemCA]

25. White men, conservatives, Republicans much more likely to own guns than other groups

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/07/15/the-demographics-and-politics-of-gun-owning-households/

I'm sure that this is just pure statistical coincidence.

[Hoyt]

28. Yet, gun "enthusiasts" will not accept that majority of gun owners are white wing racists.

[tonyt53]

29. i would not go that far, unless by majority, you mean 51%.

Many gun owners actually do like to hunt, and the guns they own reflect that. They do not own assault rifles or 30 round clips. They have a shot gun for rabbits and maybe a different one for birds. They will have a high-powered rifle for deer or other large game. Those rifles will hold no more than six rounds. the shotguns usually 3-6 shells. These people make up the group that is leaving the NRA.

[Hoyt]

31. Hunting not nearly as popular as NRA says, plus I don't care if someone has a gun or two AT HOME

for hunting. I do care, if they have a bunch of guns better suited to shooting people or carry gunz in public. I think the percentage is higher than 51%, especially if we are talking those with a bunch of guns, hunt little or not at all, and who carry to go to the store/town.

[hunter]

34. People who "like to hunt" don't have an especially good reputation...

... even among the hunters in my family.

My name is hunter, and yes, I have been hunting. I've played with guns too.

But these days I'm mostly a vegetarian who has zero tolerance for fools with guns.

I've encountered too many fools with guns directly, and the news is depressing.

Piss on guns.

The second amendment is bullshit and always has been.

[Marengo]

39. The hunters in your family don't like to hunt?

[Just reading posts]

46. You can document that with something other than a few pictures, of course....yes?

[Hoyt]

47. Yes, the post I replied to has all the documentation you need, unless you believe GOPers

are not largely racists.

[Odin2005]

43. Going hunting is hate, now?

[onehandle]

44. When you are hunting humans in a gay bar on Latino night. Yes. nt

[Odin2005]

48. The individual the OP quoted said "rifles are instruments of hate" with no qualifiers.

Thus implying rifles are inherently "hateful" in some way.

I'm not trying to attack the person who lived through the Stonewall Riots, but as someone who is from a rural area I just think it shows a rather sad and apparently unbridgeable cultural chasm between rural and urban Americans when it comes to how guns are thought of.

This is why I am so bothered by so many gun control proponents, I feel there is a lot of anti-rural sentiments of the "dumb gun-toting hicks LOL" variety, conflating hunters and other rural gun owners with the survivalist loons and RW militia crazies.