Is immigration a right or a privilege? And is illegal immigration a nuisance or a crime?

[runaway hero]

Some people on this board attribute brexit to xenophobia and racism 100 percent. Progressives generally support immigration as a principle, but has left the working class behind. So my questions are:


1) Is immigration a right or a privilege?


2) Illegal immigration, nuisance or crime?


Thanks.

[skidoo]

1. The US has immigration laws. Either enforce them or change them. Both parties allow for exploitation

[leveymg]

2. Asylum is a binding human right by UN Treaty. Free Movement of persons is a human right under the

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but is not recognized as such or enabled under national laws. Free Movement within the EU is a binding treaty right under the EU Mastrich Agreement. Free Movement within the US may not be restricted, and the right to international travel (right of Citizens to a passport), is a protected constitutional right under Kent v US (USSC, 1958). There are also various regional treaties around the world similar to the EU treaty that guarantee Free Movement of persons across borders.

In reality, the observance of these rights are limited and scattershot (blown full of holes).

[ZombieHorde]

3. Immigration is a social construct.

Borders are little more than paperwork.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. Paperwork... and wars. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

49. My paperwork is superior to your paperwork, so now you die!

War is so absurd, in my opinion.

[AngryAmish]

32. You are in good company. Tamerlane, for example.

[Adrahil]

54. Social construct? Yep. Mere papaerwork.... Nope.

Immigration IS a social construction. So are nations. But all those exist within the very important comtext of culture. It is not mere paperwork. It is an expression of deeply held and felt identities that cannot be waived off as incidental.

[ZombieHorde]

84. What are some deeply held American beliefs?

What is our shared experience and culture?

[Adrahil]

85. Jeebus man, there are BOOKS written on the subject.

If you don't think Americans have a shared culture, visit another nation for a time.

Are you actually trying to assert that American culture does not exist?

[ZombieHorde]

86. We have some shared expectations, such as tipping,

but we don't have shared values or experiences that are unique to our country. Do we?

[Bonx]

71. Civilization is a social construct

Laws are little more than paperwork.

[pampango]

4. If we ever discover life on other planets will it be its 'people' be restricted to limited areas on

their planets because these 'people' (who will look nothing like us) see themselves as fundamentally different from each other?

If aliens from another planet ever come here, will our first question to them be "What country on Planet X are you from exactly? You are welcome here in my country but don't take that spaceship across the border. You don't want to have anything to do with people in that country, let me tell you.

To answer your questions:

1) Is immigration a right or a privilege?

It is a fundamental human right but like some many fundamental human rights it is treated like it is a privilege so we must deal with it in that way.

2) Illegal immigration, nuisance or crime?

It is a crime that comes from us treating a fundamental human right like it is a privilege so we should treat it with more compassion than most types of crime.

Progressives generally support immigration as a principle, but has left the working class behind.

Many studies, those not from right wing think tanks anyway, have shown that immigration is a positive not a negative for the economy and for its workers. The working class has not been left behind in countries with much immigration AND progressive labor and other policies. The working class has been left behind in countries with little immigration and regressive labor and other policies. Immigration is not the determining factor when it comes to the working class being left behind.

[jberryhill]

11. We've seen that before

Native Americans used to tell explorers things to the effect of "Well, good thing you found us, because those people on the other side of the hill are real bastards."

It is believed that Des Moines, Iowa got its name from the "shit faces" who lived there, according to natives who knew them.


http://hoaxes.org/weblog/comments/the_true_meaning_of_des_moines

Linguistic research has shed new light on the meaning of 'Des Moines.' Turns out it might derive from a 330-year-old practical joke. In 1673 Father Jacques Marquette met some representatives of the Peoria indian tribe near the mouth of the modern-day Des Moines River. He asked them the name of the rival tribe that lived further along the banks of the river. The Peoria told him that tribe was called the Moingoana, which became the root for the word 'Moines'. But researcher Michael McCafferty of Indiana University, while studying the now extinct Miami-Illinois language, discovered that Moingoana, translated literally, meant 's**t faces.' Evidently the Peoria were having a little fun at their rival's expense.

[pinboy3niner]

20. LOL!

[jberryhill]

26. Makes perfect sense though

People are people.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

5. Non-asylum immigration is a privilege

Illegal immigration is a crime.

[leftynyc]

6. 1. Privilege

2. Crime.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. B and C, respectively. n/t

[NashuaDW]

8. privilege and crime

1) Is immigration a right or a privilege?
Without a doubt a privilege. Citizenship in the country of your birth is a right.
No one has a right to live in a another country. I can't decide to just up and go live and work in German or the UK or Mexico.
Every country has an obligation to manage immigration so it compliments the existing population. There is a place for political refugees and other special cases, there is also a place for skilled workers that can make a contribution to society.


2) Illegal immigration, nuisance or crime?
A crime with far more serious consequences than most here are willing to admit.
Everything from the reintroduction of serious diseases to identity theft to driving down the cost of labor. Barbara Jordan correctly observed that illegal immigration specially hurts young black men.

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. +1.

The irony is the US citizens who are unquestionably indigenous are those most harmed.

[pangaia]

53. But, wht are there countries in the first? It's all just made up stuff.

[Odin2005]

9. The free movement of people is a fundamental human right...

...according to the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

21. Except you left part of it out

Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

and

Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Nothing in Article 13 implies that open national borders are required, and in fact, Article 14 implicitly denies open borders by stipulating when asylum must be granted and when it can be denied. If the Universal Declaration of Human Rights mandated open borders, there would be no need for Article 14.

[JoePhilly]

13. Why should any human be prevented from living wherever they want?

We all live on the same planet.

We did not choose where we were born.

The people who now control the US, came here. They did not originate here.

People leave countries due to religious and political differences. War. Lack of government.

The ability to move freely is one we should promote.

Or, we can crap our collective pants and build walls, and gated communities.

[runaway hero]

15. Why use this argument for illegal immigration and not others.

I can't just move to your backyard and put up a flag.

[ileus]

14. 1 Privilege and 2 Crime.

[Starry Messenger]

16. Well, in the EU, immigration is a right. So your second question is moot as far as Brexit.

[runaway hero]

17. But the UK has left.

So I would argue it still stands.

[Starry Messenger]

18. That makes no sense. All the people there on the EU program before the vote were there legally.

The Brexit vote had nothing to do with illegal immigration.

[runaway hero]

22. Thread was a general question

I was address your specific points. If people want to control their countries borders, why is that bad?

[Starry Messenger]

24. It depends on the context.

Economic and political refugees fleeing from wars and failed states are trying to survive. Saying there is some one-size fits all solution is not really a deep examination of the question.

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. Voted to leave, hasn't left and may not do so.

Still in the EU for now. And access to the single market (which leading "Leave" Tories want) means agreeing to freedom of movement anyway.

[runaway hero]

23. Good Point

Boris has no clue what is going on.

[Major Nikon]

25. The UK has not left and it may never do so

[tenderfoot]

27. Illegal immigration = Media Generated Hooey

Works like a charm to get racist rubes in a tizzy.

[runaway hero]

28. If you cross the border illegally what should we call it?

[tenderfoot]

30. Paranoia. Much Ado About Nothing. BFD. - to name a few.

eom

[okasha]

31. Discovering America.

[LanternWaste]

55. Walking.

Walking.

[runaway hero]

60. What, no long screed?

With the same title and first sentence?

[fasttense]

29. You ask the wrong question

It's not is immigration a right, its is getting a full time paying job in a foreign country a right or a privilege?

I think people should be able to move where ever they want but they have no right to have a full time job when they get there. Nor should they have access to social security, unemployment benefits, free medical care, labor laws or free tuition. All these things are paid for and fought for by citizens of a country. If you show up out of nowhere just becuse you have a right to immigrate does not mean you have a right to the same things as a full paying citzen. Maybe you should be able to earn these citizen benefits but that's another subject.

People should go where they need to go but having a full time job should be reserved for paying citizens. This can easily be controlled by severely penalizing illegal employers.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

34. I'm all about severely punishing the employers

who employ and exploit illegal immigrants. They know they're not likely to get caught, and if they do, they know that the penalties they pay are far outweighed by the savings in labor costs and benefits. Potential fines are just a cost of doing business to them.

If I were king for a day...

1. Find the illegal worker who has been with them the longest to determine the baseline for the penalty. If the longest employee has been there a year or less, then the baseline is five years.

2. Pay every illegal immigrant with that employer $25/hour, 40 hour work week, 52 weeks per year for the baseline number of years.
Example: Baseline number of years is 10, each illegal immigrant working there would get a check for $520,000...tax free.

$25 X 40 X 52 X 10 = $520,000 per illegal immigrant employee

3. The employer would have to pay all of the payroll taxes, state and federal, both employer and employee contribution, as well as income taxes, state and federal, that would have been paid by the employee, had they been working legally.

4. The employer would have to pay a fine, split between the state and federal government, in an amount equal to the state/local/federal minimum wage, whichever is highest, per hour, 40 hour work week, 52 weeks per year, for the baseline number of years and the number of illegal immigrants they were employing at the time they were caught.
Example: Baseline number of years is 10, 100 illegal employees, in CA (minimum wage is $10/hour, right?)

$10 X 40 X 52 X 10 = $208,000 per illegal immigrant employee, split between the federal government ($7.25/hour) and CA ($10/hour), with CA getting $57,200 per illegal employee, and the feds getting $150,800 per illegal employee.

5. The illegal immigrants have to go back to their own country, but they take the cash with them as payment not only for their work, but for their exploitation.


If illegal immigration is to stop, employers have to realize that they risk losing everything when they hire illegal immigrants instead of paying decent wages to Americans and legal immigrants.

[cheyanne]

33. These are the wrong questions to ask!!

We need to look at this in terms of human nature: like water runs down hill, people seek a secure environment. To solve the problem of immigration, we need to understand why it happens. Let's look at this without value judgments.

Why are a large number of people leaving everything they've known, risking death and breaking laws.

As a social phenomenon that has been going on since the first human left Africa, it a natural human instinct. An instinct to live safely and provide for a family. This is a good instinct; this is what people are supposed to do.

When you have immense differences in quality of life, it's human nature to go where the jobs are and where one can live under a rule of law.

So
The rich nations have allowed the rest of the world to slide into poverty and with modern technology the rich can no longer ignore the people of these nations.

And immigration is good for both the rich and poor countries: rich countries economies are boosted by immigrants and immigrants boost the economies by sending home money.

So there are two steps to controlling immigration:

regulating the influx

providing aid to the countries that people are leaving.

This is a practical matter: we can't stop it by criminalizing it. We have to work with these people. This is similar problem to drug addition: people get addicted and it can't be stopped by criminalizing it. We need to provide help for these people.

[branford]

70. Rich nations did not "allow" the rest of the world to slide into poverty.

Poverty and deprivation have been the default standard of the human condition for virtually all of history, with a relatively few exceptions of wealth and security. In fact, the (often violent) competition for resources to attempt to remedy this situation defines our shared history, well beyond just the West.

It is only very recently by historical standards (around the Industrial Revolution) that ever increasing numbers of people have begun to experience life outside of poverty. Rich nations (i.e., the West) need not apologize of feel guilty for doing everything in their power to raise the living standards of their own people using limited resources.

Further, arguing that immigration has been good for rich counties might be true in the abstract, but paints a very incomplete picture. There are many people in our country and other advanced nations who have been terribly left behind when faced with the issues surrounding migration and globalization. Ironically, the poor, blue collar and minorities, those firmly within the Democratic tent, generally suffer the most. Rich conservatives and corporate beneficiary often reap the benefits of migration while the conditions of other steadily worsen.

This is the precisely reason why the "elites" from across the political spectrum in the UK, including both the Tory and Labour leadership, supporting Britain remaining in the EU, and their wishes were reflected in wealthier areas like London, but poorer areas, including many Labour strongholds (about on third of Labour votes chose Brexit), ignored their leadership and voted what they perceived to be in their best interests. Proclaiming the benefits of "diversity" and defending relatively open borders when jobs are being shipped overseas and towns in your own country are dying is not a way to win votes, regardless of party affiliation.

[treestar]

35. Traditionally it was a might makes right kind of thing

People did it if they could get away with it. The idea of protecting the borders was not even possible until relatively recently. They could keep people out from Ellis Island but in the 19th century, how could they stop people from coming into the West, etc.

Immigration laws are only self enforced. Those who have a good job and a home and visit another country are likely to go home. Those who are poor and see opportunity elsewhere are going to move toward the opportunity and take the risk of deportation. That risk is likely greater in some countries than others. Ours is obviously unwilling to hire enough agents to go around looking for illegal immigrants.

Keep in mind you can deport someone and after all that effort, they can sneak back.

Migration is natural to humans and every country would be a lot more sensible to just find a way to accommodate whatever natural movement is occurring. This could cut down on a lot of unpleasantness, as being around people who are different makes people less resistant to them. As was said, the people who are most against immigration are the ones who live in the parts of the countries that don't have many immigrants.

[meow2u3]

36. Immigration is a privilege, except for asylum seekers

Here is a link to the illegal immigration law, per Cornell Legal Information Institute:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

[hunter]

39. Fossil fuel using humans are a damned invasive species.

Exponential population growth by an innovative species such as ours never ends well.

It's pretty easy to imagine the U.S.A. falling apart when various regions become uninhabitable as global warming accelerates.

We humans are all in this together.

Nationalism, religious fundamentalism, racism... these things are nasty diseases which will make the collapse of this fossil fueled civilization far uglier than it would otherwise be.

Your question is irrelevant.

Treat immigrants as you would wish to be treated because it's very likely you, your children, or your grandchildren will end up in similar circumstances.



.

[MaggieD]

40. Undocumented immigration is a civil violation, not criminal

That's just a fact. Secondly, I believe it is a right.

[runaway hero]

41. So it's still a crime then

And what about the country's laws. I mean, can we squat in your backyard as we see fit? Where do we draw the line imo?

[MaggieD]

43. No, it's not a crime

That's the point. Immigration law is a civil issue not a criminal issue.

[runaway hero]

44. Then why is Obama sending so many people back.

[MaggieD]

45. You could read up on it instead of arguing with me

Here - perhaps this will help:

https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/FINAL_criminalizing_undocumented_immigrants_issue_brief_PUBLIC_VERSION.pdf

[runaway hero]

46. I actually have read that just last Friday.

But the original question remains, since when is immigration a right, or since when can you just go anywhere you want? I can't go to someone's backyard and squat unabated. Same with coming into the US without permission.

[MaggieD]

47. So why are you insisting it is criminal?

It absolutely, unequivocally is not a crime in this country.

As for squatting - no, I don't see it that way. Your argument assumes they would have the same rights as citizens, and for the most part that is not the case.

[runaway hero]

48. If you are here

I would expect them to have their basic human rights respected. They do have some rights in that instance.

[treestar]

51. How did your ancestors get here?

Did they have the permission of the Americans previously here?

[runaway hero]

58. That was 400 years ago

How is that the same as today.

[treestar]

63. How?

Your ancestors squatting in someone else's back yard is an amusing picture.

[runaway hero]

67. So because someone does something bad before, we do it again?

[treestar]

78. It ok so long as you benefit.

But after you do then no one else should?

[runaway hero]

79. That's not the point

We just don't continue doing something because we did it back that. Ex. killing certain animals.

[treestar]

50. Do you ever come across any undocumented aliens in your day to day life?

How are they bothering you precisely?

Why do you use the image of "squatting" in the "backyard?" They are in no one's back yard unless invited.

[runaway hero]

59. If you come across the border illegally, you're uninvited, right?

Yes, my uncle actually lost a construction job to them, working class guy. How is not like squatting?

[treestar]

62. Great story

Yeah you lost a job to them. Like your relative really wants those jobs and can't get a better one.

[runaway hero]

66. He's been in Construction 25 years

where is the sympathy?

[treestar]

80. And all he can do is the basic labor ?

That is not credible.

[runaway hero]

81. So he should just go back to school eh?

Do you have any idea how harder that is when you get older?

[LanternWaste]

69. Choice lays entirely with management making decisions. Is management squatting?

He didn't lose his job to them. His job was taken by the owners and allowed to someone else. No choice of either your uncle, nor the newer worker. Choice lays entirely with management making decisions. Is management squatting?

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. Euphemism bingo.

"Civil violation" ? "crime"?

And immigrants don't send their earnings "home".

And "rights" must have some legal basis. There is no basis for the idea that the citizens of a country should not be allowed to determine who is welcome.

[MaggieD]

65. Factually no, it's not a crime

That is why there is no punishment for it.

[RME_SFC]

74. Illegal Immigration is a crime subject to BOTH criminal and civil penalties

Sec. 275. [8 U.S.C. 1325]

(a) Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or b oth, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) 1/ Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of-

(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or


(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.

(c) An individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.

(d) Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, or both.

[link=https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-9025.html#0-0-0-332] USCIS[/link]


From the ACLU sheet that you posted:

Entering the United States without being inspected and admitted, i.e., illegal entry, is a
misdemeanor or can be a felony, depending on the circumstances. 8 U.S.C. § 1325. But many
undocumented immigrants do not enter the United States illegally. They enter legally but
overstay, work without authorization, drop out of school or violate the conditions of their visas
in some other way. Current estimates are that approximately 45% of undocumented
immigrants did not enter illegally.

You are correct, overstaying a visa is, in fact, a Civil Violation. You further stated that there is "no punishment." Well, the "punishment" (your word-enforcment would be better, IMO0 is the removal of the alien from the United States; and without obtaining another visa from a consulate outside the United States, they will be barred from re-entry to the United States.


Illegal Entry is a crime. Overstaying a Visa is a civil penalty that is enforced by removal from the United States. Once the individual has been removed, or has been ordered to depart, their "mere presence" in the United States is a crime.

[My Good Babushka]

52. Immigration is a behavior of the species

and it existed before countries. I firmly believe we have to craft humane laws that work with our behavior as a species, and not against it.

[The2ndWheel]

61. People can be territorial too

Part of what makes the rules and laws which exist nowhere but in the human imagination difficult to implement is how many of them there have to be in order to account for all the variety within our species.

[forjusticethunders]

56. "immigrant workers aren't part of the working class"

go back to r/The_Donald

[runaway hero]

57. No where does it say that

Keep making your candidates other supporters look bad!

[forjusticethunders]

73. "Progressives generally support immigration as a principle, but has left the working class behind."

You're the one making it a dichotomy between "immigration" and "the working class" , not me.

[runaway hero]

77. and that statement and what you wrote are not the same.

You're not a progressive if you don't care about all sectors of society, just a neoliberal.

[LanternWaste]

68. As borders are merely imaginary constructs

As borders are merely imaginary constructs while escaping hunger and oppression are actual physical realities, it seems "magical thinking" has ingrained itself into us more than we would ever want to admit.

[malthaussen]

72. "immigration" is a legal construct.

One cannot have "immigration" without borders, without countries, which are a human construct and thus fall outside the area of natural rights. Accordingly, the answer to the second question is also a legal one, and might vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Some laws are grounded in natural rights, but there is no necessary linkage between what is a right and what is law, nor is there any necessary linkage between criminality and right.

-- Mal

[BlueCaliDem]

75. IMO? 1) = privilege. 2) = nuisance. eom

[romanic]

82. Immigration = privilege, Illegal = crime.

To immigrate into a country, you have to go through the legal process to become a citizen. To sneak through a border, you've basically taking the easy way out and going in doing whatever you want without being vetted. Pretty much speaks for itself.

[brooklynite]

83. You have the right to leave when you want to; you don't have the right to be accepted anywhere else