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Yavin4

(35,432 posts)
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 08:33 PM Jun 2016

It was not factory jobs that created the great American middle class

It was a combination of:

1. Government intervention into the management of companies that forced them to collectively bargain with workers.
2. Labor laws e.g.the 40 hour work week and OT pay
3. Lack of foreign competition
4. Discrimination against African Americans and Women which limited competition for White men and raised their wages
5. Fear of the spread of Soviet communism for which a large middle class would act as a buffer

None of these things would return if we brought back every factory job in the world onto American shores. If that were to happen, you would have to pay American workers the same wage as the factory workers in other nations. Otherwise, these companies would not be able to compete. For example, if Apple made every product in the U.S., they would have to pay their factory workers the same as Samsung or go out of business.

Folks, globalization is here whether you like it or not. There's nothing that a president can do.




27 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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It was not factory jobs that created the great American middle class (Original Post) Yavin4 Jun 2016 OP
Left out was the word "unions". guillaumeb Jun 2016 #1
Using your argument Yavin4 Jun 2016 #6
They are the "foreign competition"... kentuck Jun 2016 #7
I was replying to your list. guillaumeb Jun 2016 #18
Unions created the middle class AgingAmerican Jun 2016 #2
Unions were getting killed in the streets Yavin4 Jun 2016 #4
Every country on earth with a large middle class has strong unions AgingAmerican Jun 2016 #10
+1 Go Vols Jun 2016 #25
Becase it was cheaper than revolution. rug Jun 2016 #12
Don't forget the GI Bill....nt Wounded Bear Jun 2016 #3
Big factor Freddie Jun 2016 #14
Many Americans don't aspire to be "factory workers" either. MADem Jun 2016 #5
That's the thing that's so strange about the romanticization of manufacturing alcibiades_mystery Jun 2016 #9
I have a relative who worked for a summer in a manufacturing plant. MADem Jun 2016 #16
The history of manufacturing and labor revolt 1965-1975 alcibiades_mystery Jun 2016 #17
You are right. It put food on the table, but it didn't feed the soul or the mind. MADem Jun 2016 #20
Good post treestar Jun 2016 #19
Thanks! nt MADem Jun 2016 #21
+1, "I am a fan of FAIR trade, where that playing field is reasonably level, " uponit7771 Jun 2016 #24
that's exactly what they want you to think. nt TheFrenchRazor Jun 2016 #8
Th GI Bill jump-started the floundering middle class Brother Buzz Jun 2016 #11
You forgot to factor in ... GeorgeGist Jun 2016 #13
Unions. Starry Messenger Jun 2016 #15
Been said before, I'll say it again: * U * N * I * O * N * S * made the middle class baldguy Jun 2016 #22
Lots of government money KT2000 Jun 2016 #23
lol SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2016 #26
Unions and the GI Bill. Hekate Jun 2016 #27

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
1. Left out was the word "unions".
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 08:39 PM
Jun 2016

Union strikes were the inspiration for the NLRA, and a fear that the strikes would spread and threaten capitalism.
Dealing with your list:
1) Government intervention gave the country the Taft-Hartley Act, a law that significantly weakened unions.
2) Again, due to rising and militant unionization.
3) An excellent argument for laws and tariffs that limit unfair competition.
4) No argument there. Still true.
5) Again, this fear was caused by widespread union action.

Henry Ford decided to pay his workers an unheard of hourly wage. when asked why he replied that he wanted his workers to be able to buy what they produced. Ford knew what many Americans seem to have forgotten.

Yavin4

(35,432 posts)
6. Using your argument
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 09:32 PM
Jun 2016

First, you would force factories back to the U.S. Then impose massive tariffs on foreign competition. Finally, you would need a militant union movement to force these companies to pay middle class wages.

All of this would be accomplished how?

kentuck

(111,074 posts)
7. They are the "foreign competition"...
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 09:36 PM
Jun 2016

Their products are coming back into this country. They are just making more money off them, because of cheap labor. But.....but......there is nothing we can do about it. It's the new global economy.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
18. I was replying to your list.
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 10:07 PM
Jun 2016

Many US trading partners, including China and S. Korea, have substantial barriers to trade. So there is no level playing field, no truly free trade because someone, and it is always the workers, loses.

Otherwise what you have is a race to the bottom where jobs flow to the country with the lowest wages. And this is happening to industries and jobs that are considered skilled work.

Is this your idea of Utopia?

Yavin4

(35,432 posts)
4. Unions were getting killed in the streets
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 09:10 PM
Jun 2016

It was the government that forced companies to bargain with them.

Freddie

(9,258 posts)
14. Big factor
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 09:55 PM
Jun 2016

My Dad grew up very poor and worked in a factory right out of HS and gave his paycheck to his dad. College was not on the radar. Then he served in WWII and went to state teachers college on the GI Bill, where he met Mom. Although teachers were not that well paid when I was a kid, between the 2 of them we had a solid middle class life.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
5. Many Americans don't aspire to be "factory workers" either.
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 09:30 PM
Jun 2016

You ask a guy who is manufacturing widgets on the swing shift, he'll tell you that he sees himself running his own business, or getting an advanced degree to go into "X" line of work, in a few years. No one has the idea that they're going to stand on a line until they're too old to stand anymore, doing the same soulless thing every day.

And you're right--protectionism isn't the answer. If you want to sell to the world, you've got to have a world with money to buy what you're selling--and people need jobs to engage in the wonderful world of consumerism.

A rising tide will lift all boats. We've always been used, until recently, to being in the bigger, higher boat. The thing that pisses a small number of people off is that those "underprivileged" people working for low wages in those "underprivileged" countries have jobs that people here wouldn't do for very long, even if the pay were fifteen bucks an hour. The work just sucks--it's hard and repetitive and boring, and sometimes, it's dangerous.

People want to create--not everyone gets that opportunity, but they want to be in a job where at least they can laugh and joke with their peers--whistle while you work, if you will. Maybe do a little good. Feel like their contribution matters in some way. It's not JUST about the money....though people do want to pay their bills and save a little, too.

Years ago, people who called themselves liberals and progressives used to care about those poor folks working in horrible factory conditions--"Kathy Lee should pay those poor people more for manufacturing her sportswear!" "That company should improve safety and raise wages for those 'poor people' -- no one should have to endure those working conditions!" They didn't care if they weren't American--or working IN America.

Nowadays, I am hearing a lot of "They're taking our jerbs" from people who tell me they are "on the left." To my mind, being "on the left" means that we want EVERYONE to do well; regardless of the location of their birth. Why should the child born in Liberia or Brazil have fewer opportunities than the kid born in France or USA? On the one hand, people decry "consumerism" and "capitalism" but they want all the manufacturing and money-making opportunities to regress back to USA. It's a bit disordered, this thinking--it reminds me of the LEAVE voters that were interviewed on UK television following the BREXIT vote.

And people like Donald Trump stoke that fear, the fear that they'll never get a good job ever again, that they're too stupid to re-train, that it's hopeless, and their only hope is to bring that stupid, lousy, shitty widget factory back to East Hellhole, where daddy and grandaddy lost fingers working there.

I'm sorry but I won't ever agree that "protectionism" is a liberal value. I am a fan of FAIR trade, where that playing field is reasonably level, and no one is trying to cheat or take undue advantage, but the more people who are doing well in the world, the more people WILL do well in the world.

I really do think a lot of people are struggling with this bifurcation of goals. On the one hand they want people around the world to do well, on the other hand, if that means they're going to do LESS well, personally, then (for some, anyway) all bets are off. And they regard the process as a zero sum game. If Rajit on the other side of the globe has that crappy job bending widgets, why, that means "I" will never work again! That's a long way from that rising tide lifting all boats....

The thing is, it's NOT a zero sum game. Smart, inventive people with good, forward thinking ideas are the ones that develop products that create jobs. We've got the institutions of higher learning to educate these smart people--we need to make those affordable, and put those good thinkers out into the workforce. And we sure as hell don't need to let the "FEAR FEAR FEAR" arguments of a con artist like Trump overtake the conversation.

LOL! That was a mouthful!!!

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
9. That's the thing that's so strange about the romanticization of manufacturing
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 09:42 PM
Jun 2016

People fucking hated manufacturing jobs. By the early 1970's half the factories were in open revolt as the baby boomers looked at a future of line work and said "No!"

This mania for bringing back manufacturing is ridiculous and ahistorical. Even the hipsters have a more sophisticated political aspiration in the return to craft and artisinal making.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
16. I have a relative who worked for a summer in a manufacturing plant.
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 09:58 PM
Jun 2016

It was a college job. On the GRAVEYARD shift. It paid OK--i.e., about as good as a 19 or 20 year old kid could get, and it was paying better than the back of the garbage truck. The plant manufactured foam rubber, and his job was moving heavy slabs of foam from spot A to spot B--for eight hours, with two fifteen minute breaks and a half hour meal break.

The job was backbreaking and exhausting, but he was there so that the "regulars" could go on their summer vacation--they all could spell one another on various jobs on the line, but he was the walking, talking definition of "unskilled" labor, so he got the worst job. At the end of the summer, he said that this job taught him one thing: That he never, ever, EVER wanted to be in a position where doing that kind of work was his only choice in life.

It did create somewhat of an urgency in him to do well in school, too--to the point where he got a scholarship to grad school, the lucky skunk! Changed his life!

He's nearing retirement age now, but with very little prodding, he'll tell anyone (particularly the young whippersnappers) who listens how much that job sucked and how it prodded him to make the most of opportunities and work hard in school--LOL!

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
17. The history of manufacturing and labor revolt 1965-1975
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 10:02 PM
Jun 2016

needs telling. There are some minor good histories, but it really needs the attention that 1880-1960 has received. Manufacturing moved in part because baby boomers rejected it. And the question was on the conditions of the work, not just salary, and not just what salary was sufficient to the conditions. And it wasn't merely a safety concern either. It was rejected as safe work.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
20. You are right. It put food on the table, but it didn't feed the soul or the mind.
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 10:16 PM
Jun 2016

People do want meaningful work. Those boomers were taught to expect MORE. And they taught that to their kids.

They like to produce something that matters, to see the results of their efforts.

And if they're in a job that doesn't offer any of that, they at least need esprit de corps. They need to feel close to their fellow workers, enjoy the workday, have fun and laughs, be a team, and enjoy getting up and going to work--not for the lousy work, but for the company. You see this dynamic in some fast food places, where the management is upbeat and the crew all gets along--it results in a better product for the customer. If you have to do that kind of work because there's nothing else available, your work-mates can make all the difference in whether or not the job "really sucks" or is just "Meh."

KT2000

(20,572 posts)
23. Lots of government money
Wed Jun 29, 2016, 10:42 PM
Jun 2016

in post-WWII to build the military industrial complex. Think aerospace, nuclear, military for the next war, infrastructure, medicine, education for the boomers, cold war research etc.

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