20+ girls molested in Cologne-style attacks at Swedish rock fest

[BlueNoMatterWho]

"Over 20 girls between 12 and 18 years old told police they were sexually assaulted by a group of men during a music festival in Karlstad, Sweden in attacks similar to those that occurred in Cologne during New Year’s Eve celebrations in Germany.
Police are investigating “a score of cases in which young girls have been molested,” Swedish Aftonbladet daily reported.

The girls, some as young as 12, told police they were kissed against their will by a group of young men who groped their breasts and buttocks, SVT reported.

In a leaked police memo, security forces noted that “unaccompanied youth” from the Middle East were behind the crimes."

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article23106850.ab

https://www.rt.com/news/349368-girls-molested-fest-sweden/

[Marr]

1. I have a feeling that things like this fueled much of the Brexit vote. /nt

[840high]

2. Agree.

[Ex Lurker]

3. +1

But pointing this out will be called xenophobia.

[BlueNoMatterWho]

4. More like pedophobia.

[Chan790]

15. Pedophobia is the fear of children...or habitual bigotry against children.

I'm pretty sure you meant "bigotry or hatred against pedophiles" but I'm not sure what the word for that is.

Neither does Google.

[BlueNoMatterWho]

29. Thanks, I was saying it in jest. However, the correct term could be "Pedophilephobic"?

[FBaggins]

69. The weird you're probably looking for

"Human"

[mythology]

130. pedophobia is a real and serious condition

The little buggers always have jam hands, or snot hanging out of their noses, they expect you to play telephone or give them pony rides. It's natural and normal to be afraid of them.

[BlueNoMatterWho]

49. These things certainly don't help. Especially the frequency in which they are happening.

[Nay]

81. I agree completely. The least we should expect from immigrants or refugees

is that they not assault residents of the host country.

It is not surprising that immigrant men from countries where women are chattel to be groped are suddenly unwelcome in potential host countries. People who act like that are NOT going to make responsible citizens, so why invite them in?

[muriel_volestrangler]

83. I don't think so. The talk was about jobs and resources for immigrants from the EU

of whom very few are blamed for assaults like this, whether Muslim or not (and very few EU citizens who come here are Muslim).

[XemaSab]

5. I decided a while ago that the "all cultures are equal and we should quietly respect them" thing

is complete bullshit.

There are a lot of cultures in the world where abuse of women and children is totally accepted.

It's not ok.

[840high]

8. I'm with you - it's not OK

[guillaumeb]

30. Including in the US, Germany, Italy, etc.

Or are you speaking solely of non-Western countries?

[cherokeeprogressive]

39. "where abuse of women and children is totally accepted."

The US?

[KingCharlemagne]

113. A woman is beaten by her male spouse or partner In the U.S. EVERY NINE

SECONDS. So, yeah, in the U.S.

On average, four women die per day in the U.S. from a domestic abuser.

Best remove the scales from your eyes, methinks. Or the rose-colored glasses.

[cherokeeprogressive]

116. "totally accepted". So what laws we DO have on the books have been repealed?

I missed that I guess. Not that I would, even on my WORST day, but it's an odd feeling knowing I could perpetrate some domestic violence against my Wife or some children and not stand the slightest chance of being prosecuted for it.

Hopefully the scales will go away the next time I molt.

[XemaSab]

40. I call out bullshit where I see it

n/t

[pnwmom]

47. In the US and other western countries men are prosecuted for molesting females.

In some other countries women are prosecuted for being their victim.

It's not the same.

[ericson00]

54. ding ding ding

n/t

[guillaumeb]

164. What percentage of women in the US never report rapes?

And how often is the women treated as somehow complicit?

[leftynyc]

165. If a woman doesn't report a rape

It's nobodies fault but her own if the perp doesn't get arrested - harsh but true. That's a FAR, FAR cry from getting raped and then getting arrested for having sex outside marriage and then beaten or jailed for it. Don't you think? Or am I going to find you all over this thread making excuse after excuse for the miserable condition so many women live under in some Muslim countries because the US isn't perfect?

[guillaumeb]

167. Rape is a horror that occurs in every country in the world

What I object to is posts that seem to have as their point an attempt to frame Muslim majority countries as being the only problem.

Women live under miserable conditions in many countries. Any country where rape is tolerated, and that includes the US, is a problem.

And if a woman does not report a rape that is not her fault. Incest rape happens in many families, including the US, where the female is too fearful to report it.

[pnwmom]

168. Women are not prosecuted for being raped in every country in the world.

That only happens in some special countries. Not in the US or other western countries.

[guillaumeb]

169. But when womens' accusations are not given credibility,

as happens frequently, that is obviously not supportive.

[pnwmom]

172. "not supportive" is not equivalent to "publicly whipped and thrown into prison." n/t

[leftynyc]

170. If you wish to ignore

that here in the US, rape victims are treated as actual victims versus in many Muslim countries where they're treated as whores and get beaten and jailed FOR BEING RAPE VICTIMS, knock yourself out. The adults here have no trouble seeing the difference.

[snooper2]

171. One of these days you may learn of this thing called "percentages"

When was the last time a female reporter was raped covering an event in the US?

You a woman, get harassed for showing cleavage lately?

[bdwker]

173. Wow.."British Police Go To HELL "

send them packing.

[joshcryer]

35. The US is unique in the world with multiculturalism.

We do OK with it but it obviously doesn't apply universally. It's still a laughable goal, imo.

[muriel_volestrangler]

85. Unique in what respect? Demanding more assimilation than, say, Canada?

Are you saying the USA does it better than everyone, or just a bit differently?

[joshcryer]

92. It was probably by design.

But the US, imo, is so large and broad that it can assimilate cultures without too many terrible consequences. See Somalians for an example of a large influx of foreigners who were able, for the most part, to adapt and acclimate to US culture. (Yes, there were and have been bad incidents, I'm talking of the culture as a whole.)

As far as Syrian refugees, we'll probably be fine, but there will no doubt be some bad seeds in there, and we'll discuss and work on that. It's ultimately unfortunate when those bad things happen, but it would not be an indictment on the refugees as a whole. Because we've simply been there before. It happens. It sucks when it does, but we're good people, and we have the best intentions. (Puke, US worst country ever, etc, etc.)

As to whether the US does it better? Nah. We started out this way, it's just how we are, culturally. I am in a family of foreigners, my nephew and niece are Filipino. We just are. We don't care, we look beyond it. There was of course that phase in segregation where we for a short stint had our EU moment (ultra nationalist and racist bullshit) but it passed quickly (due to justice and fairness winning out in the end).

The founding fathers created a system, whether they realized it or not, that fostered this kind of multiculturalism that no other country on the planet has yet to emulate. We're literally a country of three different lineages at this point (Germanic, Spaniard/Mexican / African). There's simply no going back for us, and we've adapted really fucking well.

As to whether or not the rest of the world should emulate the American experience? Of course, that'd be ideal, but my original post was that maybe it wouldn't work for them. Perhaps, sadly, a more nuanced method should be sought. It's going to take a long while for the rest of the world to emulate Pax Americana.

[Democat]

96. Women and minority rights are objectively better in the US than in many countries

Anyone who can't see that is not a liberal.

[muriel_volestrangler]

101. Better than 'many', but I wouldn't say better than Canada

or some other countries. The results may not be as good as Canada - see Ferguson, for instance.

[mythology]

132. Canada is almost 90% white

It's kind of not a valid comparison. It's oddly easier to not have racial conflict when there are so few people of other races, particularly given how Canada is very restrictive on their immigration policies about letting in well-educated highly employable immigrants.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

106. The US (and Canada) also didn't open the door wide open to every "Tony Montana"

who could muster their way across the Mediterranean.

[bhikkhu]

41. I have definite issues with my own culture

so I don't feel like I'm being unfairly judgmental to have issues with others as well.

[XemaSab]

43. EXACTLY!

[Nay]

82. Well, exactly. I have issues with immigrants from certain cultures because we

already have a problem with the treatment of women here in the US. Why admit refugees who have an even worse problem with misogyny than our homegrown misogynists?

[smirkymonkey]

46. +1000

Sadly.

[cwydro]

64. Ditto.

This is not acceptable.

[Captain Stern]

176. Agreed. Not all cultures are equal. They're just not.

Women are raped every day in our culture. Children are abused every day in our culture. But, we arrest rapists, and put them in prison. We arrest child abusers and put them in prison. Of course we can do a lot better, we certainly can't be proud of our entire history on the matter, but it's fair to say we don't condone that behavior, and we certainly don't encourage it legally.

When it comes to treatment of women and children, there are some cultures that are straight-up inferior. I'm not saying this because I don't understand these cultures, I'm saying it because I do.

[Beakybird]

6. Refugees should be expelled

if they are caught engaging in such behaviour. And if they're minors, the parents should leave too. I'm all for welcoming refugees. I would welcome them in my home. But this kind of criminality should never be tolerated.

[AntiBank]

13. If you said those words on the open street here in say, Stureplan, and people heard you

Last edited Mon Jul 4, 2016, 01:55 AM - Edit history (1)

we would have BIG trouble with people, some might even call 112 (our 999/911). About 80% or so my fellow Swedes go ballistic and hurl the racist! racist! meme if you even talk about lower immigration, let alone deporting criminal invandrare (immigrants). In 2014 they passed a change to the Speech Law law making it extremely easy to go after anyone criticising immigration (and other things too, but this was tailored for what the government considers non PC speech). Remember, we do not have a "1st Amendment" right to free speech here in Sweden, so it is not like the US.


here is the law

http://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lagar/arende/betankande/nagra-andringar-pa-tryck--och-yttrandefrihetens_H101KU17

[bdwker]

14. Sweden was the jewel of Europe.

I am so sorry.

[AntiBank]

31. It's a totally different dynamic here due the unified stance of all the political parties in the

Riksdag (our parliament, its unicameral) but one (the far right Sverigedemokraterna aka SD aka Sweden Democrats) on pro immigration. Also, in Sweden, the main type of immigration is refugees from the US/UK/NATO empiric war zones, the second highest type is Roma and other extremely poor Eastern Europeans who end up homeless here and also are abused by dodgy under the table jobs. This FEEDS the racists and keeps growing SD.

SD, the right wing, is basically a one issue party, and they are surging because all the others refuse to deal or even really talk about it with it. In the last 2 years, last year, over the highest rolling 12 month period, when adjusted for population of Sweden versus America, we took in the USA equivalent of around 7 million war refugees. The government has dumped them all over the county now, many smaller areas are really overwhelmed.

I do NOT want to sound xenophobic at all, I am an immigrant here, my partner is Afro Caribbean/Swedish but born and raised in London. I have lived in 8 countries, visited 94, I adore diversity and practice it in my own personal life more than probably 95% of people anywhere. But the system here is broken. A huge problem is that youth unemployment amongst newer refugees is over 50%. Crime has dramatically increased here in the last 15 years of so. Rape is up around 600% over the last decade (partially to do with the fact that we in 2005 rewrote our rape laws to be the most expansive by far in the world, but also partially to do with the influx of refugees from violent war torn backgrounds and violent misogynistic brutal cultures). Sweden does not keep any racial stats, and the press never reports ethnicity, but the few studies (and massive stories on private blogs and alternative news sites) that have been done show a not so pretty picture. Norway does keep stats and and for Oslo they found about 70% of rapes were by immigrants in 2010-11. http://www.unhcr.no/Pdf/Baltic_nordic_HL_2011/May_2011.pdf Norway has a lower percentage on non natives than Sweden too. Malmö (where Zlatan is from, lol) Sweden is the biggest majority minority city in the entire EU now.



I feel "dirty" even writing about it. The pressure here is intense to just bow your cap and ignore ignore. Sweden did an insanely GOOD job for decades bringing in refugees from all over the world (basically follow a CIA coup map and that's who we got). Iranians, Chileans and many other South Americans, Balkans, etc etc.

All have SO wonderfully been integrated into Swedish society. They have climbed up the ladder socioeconomically, politically, culturally and its breathtaking how it all worked.

But they came in relatively small numbers (we are still under 10 million people even now) and over decades. Ever since fucking Bush and the Iraq War, then moving onto Libya, Syria, etc, we have been just flooded. Södertalje, a smaller city just south of Stockholm, in 2005-6, took in more Iraqi refugees than the ENTIRE US did over the same time.

I hope we can sort ourselves.

[bdwker]

34. Thank you for a great intelligent educational post.

I hope you survive.

I fear it's too late.

[AntiBank]

36. We are not at the point of no return yet. I have hope. But major structural changes need to happen.

I am terrified SD is going to get more power. They have a very small and somewhat weak neo nazi component. The REAL neo nazis are in groups like Nordfront. They are the ones who could run riot if given the chance. Interestingly they hate SD as they think they are "zionist friendly" as SD has hooked up with the ultra radical right in Israel over the common hatred of Muslims.

There is a new group now spreading like wildfire here, that came from Finland. Soldiers of Odin. They are like Aryan Trumpsters mixed with Vikings mixed with SS battalions without (yet) the guns.


EXCLUSIVE - Nazi daggers, SS hats and a hangman's noose: On night patrol with the 'Soldiers of Odin', neo-Nazi led vigilantes vowing to 'keep Europe's women safe from migrant sex attacks'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3426685/Nazi-daggers-SS-hats-hangman-s-noose-night-patrol-Soldiers-Odin-neo-Nazi-led-vigilantes-vowing-Europe-s-women-safe-migrant-sex-attacks.html

A gang of vigilantes led by a violent neo-Nazi is going on night time ‘migrant patrols’ on the streets of Finland, with some members talking of ‘ethnic cleansing’ in the wake of the country’s mounting immigration crisis.

The self-styled 'Soldiers of Odin' march in a mob, wearing bomber jackets with their logo on the back. They have vowed to take direct action to ‘protect their wives, girlfriends and children’ after a migrant influx to the liberal Scandinavian country.

The gang – which claims to have cells across Europe – says it mobilised after a rise in migrant-related crime over the past 12 months because the Finnish government has ‘screwed everything up’.

MailOnline gained exclusive access to the gang's leadership and visited its secretive headquarters – which was packed with Nazi memorabilia and White Supremacist propaganda.




snip




Meet The Anti-Refugee 'Hate' Group That Just Landed In The US From Finland

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/meet-the-anti-refugee-group-that-laned-in-the-us

A European-based anti-refugee group is finding a new home in the United States, according to a report from the Anti-Defamation League, and catching fire with neo-Nazis and anti-government extremists.

The group–Soldiers of Odin–launched in Finland in 2015 and is named for a Norse god. Members of the group can often be seen in Finland patrolling the streets, wearing black jackets inscribed with a Viking and the Finnish flag and attempting to be vigilante "eyes and ears for the police," according to the ADL report.

The group represents a backlash to the rising number of refugees being resettled throughout Europe. In Finland, the number of refugees quickly ballooned from just little more than 3,000 in 2014 to 32,000 in 2015. The group has already spread across Europe from France to the U.K.

Now, the Soldiers of Odin are making moves in the U.S.

According to the ADL's report, rumblings from the Soldiers of Odin USA began in February of this year. Unlike Europe, which is facing a massive refugee crisis, the number of refugees coming into the U.S. is still relatively small. And so far, Soldiers of Odin USA has mostly a web presence. Still, ADL estimates that there are at least 4,000 individuals linked to the U.S. group.

In March, the Soldiers of Odin chapter in Denver, Colorado held its first patrol. And the ADL reported that in Montana–where there is not even a refugee resettlement office–the backlash against refugees was so strong that "more than 200 people tried to crowd into a [Flathead County] March 10 county commissioners meeting to express anti-refugee and anti-Muslim sentiments." In March, a Soldiers of Odin group emerged to encourage individuals in the Flathead Valley to protest any Muslim refugee resettlement in the area.

"Europe waited until AFTER she was flooded with refugees to protest in large numbers. We will not make the same mistake in Montana," the group's Facebook page read. "We all know that many of the Muslim refugees are causing massive amounts of crime, in particular sexual assault and rape of women and children. Soldiers of Odin peacefully patrols the streets to protect citizens."

snip

[nolabels]

63. There are so many hate groups in the US that they (given enough space) cancel each other out

Of course, with many in law enforcement being in the mix, it sometimes gets comical

[AntiBank]

65. Tess Asplund...........this is how how face down the fuckers

Last edited Mon Jul 4, 2016, 11:33 AM - Edit history (1)

[nolabels]

67. Bravado and a visceral malaise have been common place in our L.A. metropolis since Richard M. Nixon

The stand up might make you feel better for a while but to win the day a taking away place the bully pontificates would have to be a group effort. Its a long battle that might even take several lifetimes but in the end we all will have to learn to live together because there is no other place left to go.

If you study history much you will see that eventually all man made systems fail, the more important thing in that lesson is how we pick ourselves after that happens

1992 Los Angeles riots
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

[AntiBank]

72. I was born in Huntington Memorial, Pasadena, parents had just moved to Altadena

from London. I was living in Ladera Heights, off La Cienga when the Riots went down. We got the hell out and stayed at my mums house in Laguna Nigel for the duration. Soon moved back out of the US again. Bad times. Fuck Daryl Gates and his stormtrooper nazi coppers.

[nolabels]

84. I popped out of mom at Downey Community.

I might of moved once or twice also in the last couple of years but mom, at 87 just wants to hang out till it's over. The cops, just like all the others vying for power over others have a mindset that was learned in fairytale. I cannot fault the misconception because it somebody else's vision but I also know they are just symptoms. The reality is that we all get those choices somewhere down that road, how we use them is where it gets interesting.

In my case, it feels easier to forgive and learn about it than to be angry and misinformed. My ex-spouse went to work for a law enforcement agency and i got to see how that law enforcement mindset gets festered first hand. When some people feel that they cannot be part of the community then we all will have problems till we get them to feel and understand that they are a part of it also.

To figure it out, you must first understand what you can do with your life rather than figure out what has been done to you. It's not the kind of tool you have but more how your skill to use it evolves.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

19. Sorry to say . . .

but your country seems finished.

[Yupster]

90. It is a philosophical question

Is there any inherent right for there to be a Sweden? or a traditional Swedish culture?

Is that something that can or should be defended?

By letting in large groups of immigrants with much greater birthrates than the native population who have no interest in Swedish values or culture, it seems they're just giving their country away. Demographics will take care of itself soon enough.

Is this just the way it goes, or does a country have a right to defend its culture?

A question for philosophers.

[BlueNoMatterWho]

50. Coming to a nation near you.

[bdwker]

152. Already there...

New York
Russia
Mogadishoo
Egypt
Paris
Brussels
San Bernardino
Orlando
Turkey
Bangladesh
Iraq
Saudi Arabia

I need a score card.

[smirkymonkey]

68. I don't get it. How do they react when they see stories like this?

Don't they care about crimes committed against their own people? It amazes me that they are still so PC. It will do them in I'm afraid. The immigrants know they can get away with anything and that attitude just emboldens them.

[bdwker]

7. You just don't want to know who did this.

You really DONT WANT TO KNOW !!!!

[840high]

9. We do know.

[bdwker]

10. It's like a game.

"They who must not be named".

Is there a way to say it without getting into trouble ?

[840high]

16. I doubt it. PC police will get you.

[bdwker]

22. True

Other forums they use other words.

On Liberalforum they are called TROGS.

Short for troglodytes.

[Violet_Crumble]

57. I can say it!

If yr looking for the answer that's totally 100% accurate and the same answer when it comes to the same issue at music festivals in the US, Australia, and the UK, the answer is men.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

151. That answer is the correct one --

for many questions that we are really not allowed to talk about. :/

I am an American woman. I have been groped, rubbed up against, flashed, and sexually verbally abused in public -- all by men (interestingly, not one of them Middle Eastern or Muslim!). I have been a victim of various forms of property theft and gun violence -- all by men.

When can we start making broad brush rants about how sick and disgusting "male culture" is??

[MariaThinks]

60. There doesn't seem to be. The mainstream wants to ignore facts

and pretend that everything is fine.

Btw - the meme that poverty is causing terrorism is continually destroyed. The murderers in Bangladesh were from wealthy backgrounds who hated music and western ideas based on religious scripture (that which can not be named). How do you reason with that?

[EL34x4]

70. Just blame all "Abrahamic" religions

or a simple "I hate religious fundamentalists" will suffice.

This convenient tool allows one to vent their outrage without appearing Islamophobic.

[AntiBank]

11. this has happened here in Stockholm in 2014-15, in January 2016 there was a huge scandal becuase the

cops and the newspapers tried to cover it up.


Swedish police accused of covering up sex attacks by refugees at music festival

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/11/swedish-police-accused-cover-up-sex-attacks-refugees-festival

Sweden’s prime minister has condemned a “double betrayal” of women after allegations that police covered up sexual harassment by recent immigrants at a music festival in Stockholm. Meanwhile, reports have emerged of attacks on women in Malmö on New Year’s Eve.

Groups of refugees molested concertgoers at We Are Stockholm, Europe’s largest youth festival, in the summer of 2014, according to internal police memos obtained by Dagens Nyheter, a daily newspaper. “These are so-called refugee youths, specifically from Afghanistan. Several of the gang were arrested for sexual molestation,” one police memo said.

Yet the official police report on the five-day festival attended by 170,000 young people aged mainly 13-19 made no mention of sexual harassment or assaults. The prime minister, Stefan Löfven, said this amounted to a double betrayal since no one was prosecuted for the crimes and the police did not make them public.

The reports come as police in Cologne, Germany, investigate hundreds of claims of assaults on women on New Year’s Eve. Officials say nearly all of the suspects in the attacks were “people with an immigrant background”. Police and the media have been accused of deliberately under-reporting the events in order not to encourage anti-immigrant sentiment.

snip


It’s not only Germany that covers up mass sex attacks by migrant men... Sweden’s record is shameful
Stockholm police were warned not to give descriptions of the perpetrators lest they were accused of being racist

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that-covers-up-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/

It took days for police to acknowledge the extent of the mass attacks on women celebrating New Year’s Eve in Cologne. The Germans were lucky; in Sweden, similar attacks have been taking place for more than a year and the authorities are still playing catch up. Only now is the truth emerging, both about the attacks and the cover-ups. Stefan Löfven, our Prime Minister, has denounced a ‘double betrayal’ of women and has promised an investigation. But he ought to be asking this: what made the police and even journalists cover up the truth?

The answer can be discovered in the reaction to the Cologne attacks. Sweden prides itself on its sexual equality and has even pioneered a feminist foreign policy. When hundreds of women were reported to have been molested and abused in Cologne — at the hands of an organised mob — the reaction from Swedish politicians and pundits ought to have been one of outrage.

Instead, we were told that the events in Cologne were not unusual. An article in Aftonbladet, Sweden’s largest tabloid, argued that it was racist to point out that the perpetrators in Cologne had been described as North African or Arab, since German men had carried out sexual assaults during Bavaria’s Oktober-fest. Another Aftonbladet article said that reporting on the Cologne attacks was bowing to right-wing extremism. Over the last week, we have been told over and over that the real issue is men, not any particular culture — that Swedish men are no better.

Then last week Sweden’s own stories began to emerge. During the We Are Sthlm music festival, large groups of young men harassed girls sexually. It began in 2014 and it also went on during last year’s festival. According to internal police reports the groups were ‘so-called refugee youths primarily from Afghanistan’. The youngest of the victims was 12 years old.

The police claimed that there were ‘relatively few crimes and arrests considering the number of participants’. Internal reports told a different story. The police were shocked enough by the harassment to try to come up with a strategy to handle the groups of molesters at the festival — a strategy that was evidently unsuccessful. The trouble was that they were trying to deal with a problem but would not speak its name. As Peter Ågren, police chief in central Stockholm, put it: ‘Sometimes we do not dare to say how things really are because we believe it will play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats.’ As we now know, police officers in Stockholm are instructed not to reveal the ethnicity or nationality of any suspects lest they be accused of racism.


snip

[840high]

17. Thanks.

[smirkymonkey]

71. Don't they see that by covering up and ignoring it plays into the

hands of the Swedish Democrats even more? People will find out - it is the coverup and ignoring of criminal acts that outrages people.

[treestar]

12. There has been an accusation

but no proof and no conviction. Funny how people are willing to drop innocent until proven guilty so they can use an accusation alone to confirm their biases.

[840high]

18. Donald Trump is accused of

raping a monor. DU believes it. Why should we not believe these young women?

[treestar]

23. that's an accusation too

it has not been proven.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. There have been twenty accusations. Why do you present that as 'an accusation'?

Innocent until proven guilty is for the courts, not for discussion purposes. Honesty is for discussion however and 20 accusations is not 'an accusation'. It's a score of accusations. I'm sure all those girls are lying, right?

[treestar]

25. so what's the number of accusations that makes people guilty?

each charge is a separate trial.

Anti-Muslim people want theses things to happen so they can justify bigotry towards Muslims. It's not beyond the pale they are making them up, and indeed some have been made up.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. So you are allowed to conjecture that over 20 women and girls are lying out of agenda about

being assaulted but others can't even discuss the notion that men attacking women and girls are criminals not matter who they are? Why is that? Your narrative seems to lack credibility and your motives are beyond comprehension. You blame the victims. And that's not good.

[treestar]

88. I did not do any such thing

you are presuming they are all correct and telling the truth. Because you want to. You have no more details on these cases than that Muslim men are accused.

[guillaumeb]

32. Nice point.

When the various posts about Cologne were current here, I quoted from a German womens' organization that pointed out that German women had been complaining about the rape culture at Oktoberfest for many years with little results from the German authorities.

I also cited some articles about the US Army and the many rape incidents on Okinawa.

For these efforts I was called a misogynist and a Muslim apologist.

[FBaggins]

66. You really doubt understand the concept, do you?

"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't mean that we pretend that no crime was committed until someone is convicted of it. Nor does it mean that we can't rail against an apparently- growing problem.

We certainly don't have to pretend that a score of young ladies are all lying about their abuse or general descriptions of their attackers.

It doesn't even mean that we can't decide who/what we believe. It just means that the accused enjoys a legal presumption of innocence until conviction - which is entirely different from actual innocence.

[treestar]

87. you believe it because you want to believe it

each of these stories is an attempt to paint all Muslim men as bad.

[FBaggins]

104. You just accused 20+ Swedish young ladies of lying about sexual assault

yet somehow I get the impression that you thing they're the ones with a bigotry problem.

I guess they aren't innocent until proven guilt, right?

Shameful.

[treestar]

107. No I did not.

What bad faith. Any accusation should be investigated! And each of the 20 people accused has the same right to be heard in that case. You have zero interest in the details of the cases, since you so want to believe each case is true and fear the details may lead to doubts that Muslim men are evil people who commit a lot more sexual assaults than others and that are specifically dangerous to western women and therefore Muslim refugees should be refused entry to a western nation. And to use that to flog an agenda about how awful multicultural is when sexual assault takes place in all societies and in societies with only one culture.

[FBaggins]

109. You absolutely did

Last edited Mon Jul 4, 2016, 12:22 PM - Edit history (1)

You said that each of their stories was "an attempt to paint all Muslim men as bad."

You have zero interest in the details of the cases, since you so want to believe each case is true

If the accused were all white males, just about every DUer would correctly shun your nonsensical claims that their stories should not be believed until proven and were likely just misandry on the part of whoever posted the story.

sexual assault takes place in all societies and in societies with only one culture.

It's dishonest to paint all cultures as equal in this regard when we all know full well that there are cultures that would defend young women like these (not including you obviously) and other cultures where the girls would be in danger of beatings/death for the shame that they just brought on their families (including their own fathers carrying out the punishment). We don't have to pretend that all Muslims are part of such cultures in order to recognize that they exist... and that they don't exist among people who grew up in Sweden.

[Democat]

97. Donald Trump has never been convicted of being a jerk

But most Americans believe it's true.

Do you disagree?

[treestar]

98. Being a jerk is not a crime

[Lizzie Poppet]

142. I choose to believe the victims.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a legal principle, and there is no obligation to strictly observe it in informal discussions. In cases like this, I'll believe the victims until given good reason to change that belief.

You know...feminism, and all that.

[treestar]

144. Feminism means every male accused of sexual assault has to be guilty?

Wow.

[Lizzie Poppet]

146. Nice strawman.

Does it keep the crows from your garden?

Do you really not get the point of what I was saying?

[treestar]

155. You said you believe every accuser

and equated that with feminism.

[Lizzie Poppet]

156. belief =/= knowledge

See the difference? Again, "innocent until proven guilty" is a legal principle, not an operating precept in determining truth.

As something of a default, I choose to believe the victim in such cases, until such time as I have knowledge* of the person's actual guilt or innocence. The legal system has, quite rightly, a different default position...because it has to. Presumption of innocence is a better way to run a legal system. There is no reason whatsoever an informal discussion about such an incident needs to adhere to that default.

* Or as close as one can come to certainty of the truth-state of a synthetic proposition...but I don't think getting into philosophical minutiae is useful here (happy to do so...it's what I do, basically, but it's usually useless pedantry in an informal discussion like this).

[EL34x4]

21. The girls must not have been wearing their "Don't Molest Me" bracelets.

http://www.friatider.se/do-not-molest-me-swedish-police-giving-out-bracelets-girls-wake-immigrant-attacks

[840high]

27. I'm sure that will stop it.

[BlueNoMatterWho]

33. WTF?

From the article:

"Swedish police revealed on Friday that they will offer young women wristbands with the slogan “POLICEAVSPÄRRAT #tafsainte” [Police cordon, don’t grope] printed on them in Swedish, to prevent sexual assaults."

[AntiBank]

37. Välkommen till Sverige

I swear you cannot make some of the skit (shit) up that the government does here.

sigh

[Ilsa]

79. I wonder if the victims are blamed if they are not wearing

the stupid bracelets. Place the burden of avoiding and correcting the perps' criminal behavior on the victims?

[AntiBank]

80. Swedish Feminists Thread Needle Between Sexism and Racism in Migrant Controversy

http://time.com/4182186/sweden-feminists-sexual-assault-refugees/

A scandal over alleged sexual assaults by migrants puts Sweden—renowned for its gender equality and its liberality—in a difficult place Even as Germany has grappled with a scandal over alleged sexual assaults involving migrants, Sweden has been embroiled in its own sexual assault controversy.

It erupted on Jan. 11 after the liberal newspaper Dagens Nyheter reported leaked police memos indicating that Swedish police had covered up reports of groping and the sexual harassment of young girls at a Swedish music festival last summer by refugee youths. The story implied that the police covered-up the reports in order to avoid anti-immigrant sentiment.

Sweden’s Prime Minister Stefan Löfven called the alleged cover-up a “double betrayal.” Björn Söder, an MP from the Sweden Democrats, a right-wing and anti-migrant party, called it “a scandal without equal”—though later in the week, a special prosecutor in Sweden announced that there would be no formal investigation because there was no evidence of any criminal wrongdoing by the police. Though the facts of what actually happened at the festival remain unclear, the controversy has raised questions in Sweden about whether the Scandinavian country’s liberal political values had stifled a more honest discussion about how to integrate migrants from the Islamic world who might not share those values—even as the response of right-wingers fed accusations of racism.

It is not the first time that Sweden has had to deal with the uncomfortable intersection of racism and sexual assault against women. After sexual assault allegations were made against Wikileaks founder Julian Assange in Sweden in 2012, the country faced scrutiny over statistics that suggested it had one of the highest rape rates in the world. Right-wing organizations, such as the Gastestone Institute, have used this data as an indication of risk migrants pose to women. But Sweden’s National Council for Crime Prevention cautions against comparing crime data across countries, and attributes Sweden’s statistics to high rates of reporting rape, and a broadening of the definition of rape in 2005.


snip




intersectionality at one of it's most tricky points for people who are wedded to the "all immigrants are absolutely equal and never really bad and we need to let millions in if necessary" meme

[Yupster]

91. That was my first reaction

So if a woman isn't wearing hr bracelet, does an immigrant man understand that to mean the woman is inviting his molestation?

[AntiBank]

38. it's "tafsa inte" btw on the bracelets

means literally dont paw me

but do not molest is what the correct idiom meaning is

[Lizzie Poppet]

157. Do the bracelets hold extra rounds of ammo or something?

Fucking useless...

[EL34x4]

24. “unaccompanied youth” from the Middle East

In other words, 27-year old war veterans.

[840high]

28. So sad.

Girs, women should not have to put up with this anywhere in the world.

[romanic]

42. Sweden needs to get it's shit together and help it's people, mostly their women

from these uncivilized rapist scumbags. If that sounds xenophobic then so fucking what, Sweden shouldn't have to deal with perverts imported from miles away.

[Calculating]

153. Agreed

Sometimes you just can't be politically correct in this world. Certain cultures refuse to be civilized.

[MohRokTah]

44. Not buying it.

RT.COM is propaganda. Not buying this story as the sources are not reliable.

[mwrguy]

45. This!

Islamophobic propaganda.

[AntiBank]

52. bullshit. it happened. it was even worse here in Stockholm in 2014-15

read up stream in the thread.

[AntiBank]

51. it happened. get over it

why dont you stop being a obstructionist sophist and do some basic research of your own

Google is your friend


http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article23106850.ab

Aftonbladet is a centre left main newspaper here BTW

nice try though

[Quantess]

74. Aftonbladet is left-mainstream newspaper

They tend to lean overly PC, though very mainstream.

It's an uninformed and desperate reach to try to say Aftonbladet is somehow RW.

[AntiBank]

75. I think you misread. I did say it was centre left.

Many old copies piled up in our flat at moment too. Lol. Need to make a recycling run.

[Quantess]

76. My mistake, I meant to reply to someone else.

I'm saying basically what you said about Aftonbladet. It's in all the newspapers here.

I'm posting from my mobile phone, so it's easier to reply to the wrong person.

[AntiBank]

77. lol, is all good I am on mobil too

thus my shite spelling on multiple posts

[treestar]

108. The article is in Swedish

the RT one is very vague.

Google Translate

recis as Bråvalla festival in Norrköping, which also continued during the weekend, the notifications of suspected sex crimes overshadowed the music acts on the free festival Putte in the park in Karlstad.
On Friday, a large number of young girls have been subjected to sexual molestation at the festival in Mariebergsskogen.
On Saturday morning had sixteen complaints received by the Värmland police. The girls who have registered have told us they encircled by between seven and eight boys, who then groped them. The youngest victim is only 12 years, according to police.
"At least ten plaintiffs'
During the Saturday evening, police had therefore strengthened its presence with increased coverage of the festival.
But even though the day started well forced the police team leader Daniel Fernström at 1:30 pm on Saturday night, when the festival area was almost empty of people say that they had received further complaints from harassed girls.
According Fernström should the mood to have changed during the last concert. He says that "a handful" of suspected perpetrators were arrested.
- During the last gig here came a number of sexually molested women out to us and makes contact with the police, saying that they had been sexually molested contained in the audience. And we have acted on the information and following designations as a number of people arrested, says Fernström.
READ ALSO
12-year-old sexofredad during festival
 
Young men carried to station
Police and security guards snatched including the two guys from the audience the sea, which was then taken out to a fenced area behind the stage. At least two men, 16 and 18, carried out during the night to the station for identifying suspected of sexual molestation.
Police said early Sunday that the overall number of notifications in the festival exceeded 30. It later corrected the figure to 23 notifications made in Putte in the park.
- I think it is important that the notification for this is not okay, says Eva Högfeldt, duty officer at the police in Värmland.
Just as during the previous evening police said on Sunday morning that the gang of guys to have consisted of seven to eight unaccompanied children and that the molestation took place in front of the front of the stage during performances.
Free festival Putte in the park was conducted between Thursday and Saturday in Karlstad. Last year, one new visitor record in the city with around 75 000 visitors. The festival will come later in July to visit Hembygdsgå
Go


Not even mentioned they are Muslim refugees.

[Quantess]

110. I live in Sweden and I read the papers myself.

Of course it didn't specify their religion; they almost never do. It was young males from the middle east and north africa. That is all we know.

[treestar]

111. Well we don't have those links

Only the ones in the OP.

[bdwker]

112. No freedom of speech.

No freedom of the press.

[Quantess]

117. Officially we do have freedom of the press,

supposedly Sweden ranks very high on freedom of press, done by some international study. It is the police that guard their information, it seems.

Freedom of speech: nothing like the USA's

[Democat]

59. We should ignore sex crimes?

Take a look at other links in the thread to other media.

[MariaThinks]

61. There was a young muslim girl in Ethiopia who was raped. She brought it up. The village

stoned her to death.

Here's the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning_of_Aisha_Ibrahim_Duhulow

It happened.

I care so much about innocent muslim women being killed that I talk about it. What does it say about the mainstream who keep trying to hide it so that the innocent and powerless don't get any help.

[treestar]

89. that's not what the poster said

more bad faith statements.

[Democat]

95. Some on DU will minimize or deny the truth

If this was a story about Donald Trump or some Christian group, do you think they would be questioning the source?

There are many on DU who will minimize or deny crimes by certain groups if the story doesn't agree with their world view.

[treestar]

99. Questioning the source can be

done for any point whatsoever. If a source has a reputation for bias, that should be considered. Regardless of the issue. No one denied anything, but questioning the truth of any accusation should be done, even if that disturbs those who want it to be true.

Yes RT is questioned here and it would be questioned if it said anything about Trump. We would be cautious to use the information.

[Quantess]

103. If it were only RT reporting this, fine.

This is all over the maistream news in Sweden. And yes, the media is having a discussion about how this is a challenge of being a multi-cultural society with a huge recent influx of immigrants.

You are mistaken if you imagine this story is just being reported by minor RW media.

This event is currently a topic of opinion/ editorial articles in sweden, which means at least people are beginning to discuss the elephant in the room.

[treestar]

105. Interesting so the accusation of US soldiers in Germany

raises similar questions.

Most western societies are multi-cultural now and sexual assault is always a problem, it was not introduced with this one particular group of immigrants. It is proper to question these stories where they seem a bit convenient and the Islamophobes too eager to be sure they are true and not hear both sides.

[oberliner]

78. Not buying it?

Are you serious?

[demmiblue]

86. Quelle surprise. n/t

[smirkymonkey]

48. K&R

[AntiBank]

53. more Swedish links, just to quash people wrongly saying this is some RT agitprop

here is our national police listing of it

https://polisen.se/Aktuellt/Handelser/Varmland1/2016-07-02-0744-Sammanfattning-dygn-Varmland/

SVT (our BBC, national telly)

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/varmland/manga-fall-av-sexuella-ofredanden-pa-putte-i-parken

our national radio

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=93&artikel=6466106

and more newspapers

http://www.svd.se/flera-sexofredanden-pa-festival-i-karlstad

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/fler-anmalningar-om-sexofredanden-pa-putte-i-parken/

http://www.expressen.se/gt/tolv-anmalningar-om-ofredande-pa-festival/

https://www.gp.se/nyheter/v%C3%A4stsverige/flera-sexbrott-under-karlstadsfestival-unga-tjejer-offer-1.3450221

http://nwt.se/karlstad/2016/07/03/tjugotal-anmalningar-om-sexuella

http://www.vf.se/nyheter/karlstad/sexuella-ofredanden-pa-putte-i-parken

http://www.bohuslaningen.se/nyheter/v%C3%A4stsverige/flickor-sexuellt-ofredade-p%C3%A5-karlstadsfestival-1.3450403

[ericson00]

55. this is why we cannot afford either the approach of

"ban ALL Muslims" or "let everyone in from that part of the world."

Until some of the backwards elements of cultures that dominate Muslim-majority countries change, perhaps we do need to show extra caution in who we let in from that part of the world.

I also really, REALLY, hope the Democratic Party realize that not reacting to this will be cannon fodder for Trump, and "triangulate" on Syrian refugees.

[Democat]

58. On DU it's okay to blame victims and deny sex crimes

But only if certain groups are involved in the crimes.

[smirkymonkey]

73. It sickens me, this attitude.

They think they are being so righteous by standing up for one group of people, while completely discriminating against another group of people. How hypocritical!

[trotsky]

178. Yep. :(

[EL34x4]

93. 'He grabbed me, then touched my genitals. Girls were crying everywhere'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3673304/At-35-girls-aged-12-17-sexually-assaulted-foreign-youths-Swedish-music-festival-scenes-similar-Cologne-New-Year-attacks.html

[bdwker]

94. Oh geez

Testosterone filled teen fundies.

[EL34x4]

100. Boys will be boys, eh?

[KingCharlemagne]

119. Sounds like a description of your average American University frathouse on

a Friday or Saturday night.

N,B, Most American frat rats are NOT Muslim. But they are sure as shot misogynist.

[EL34x4]

124. Actually, 20+ 12-18 year old girls sexually assaulted

sounds nothing like a description of your average American University frathouse on a Friday or Saturday night.

[KingCharlemagne]

126. Touched a nerve, did I? - nt

[leftynyc]

166. You got called on your

BULLSHIT comparison and obviously don't like it. Unless, of course, you're sitting on a story about 12 year olds getting molested at some fraternity in the US. Are you?

[demmiblue]

129. I know, right?! n/t

[Odin2005]

134. The Daily Mail is a Fascist rag.

[EL34x4]

159. I am sure the 20+ girls who were assaulted will be relieved to learn this.

[pampango]

114. These Muslim young men, if they are, should be considered representative of all Muslims

in Sweden. The others should be considered as tarnished due to 'guilt by association'. Muslims are bad; not just a tiny minority of Muslims.

Deport them all and build a wall to prevent Muslim criminals and rapists (and some of them are probably good people) from entering the country in the future.



Wait til Trump gets ahold of this story.

[bdwker]

115. I hope they are not representative of all Muslims.

That's Islamic bigotry.

[AntiBank]

121. I think I can help out. At least speaking for me. I am NOT pushing the Muslim angle at all.

It's the horrific misogynistic culture and violent surroundings thst most of the hundreds of thousands of refugees have come from. Yes, we also have Islamisist issues too, especially with the numbers of immigrants who go over and fight for ISIS then some return. We also have some issues with religious based violence at sectarian level, ie Sunni v Shi'ite and also honour killings and violence in certain neighbourhoods promoted by radical clerics, often against the tiny tiny Jewish community here.

That said I am not saying Islam played a large direct role in these attacks.

I think some are conflating issues too much.

[pampango]

123. Sorry for not putting the sarcasm tag. I thought the head banging on the wall

would suffice. My apologies.

[nolabear]

118. What the hell is the matter with guys? Muslim, Christian, whatever, guys cause a lot of trouble!

No one tends to bring it up, but DAMN, guys, you shouldn't let one another get away with hurting people. It's not that you can't stop, it seems to be that you just think you can get away with it. Kidnapping, raping, killing, maiming...why we women don't organize against it is the other thing I don't understand.

And don't deflect to "there are good ones." Apparently not enough of you to step up and defend people (men and women) who are being targeted and assaulted.

I'm bloody sick of it.

[bdwker]

120. You got that right.

New York
Russia
Mogadishoo
Egypt
Paris
Brussels
San Bernardino
Orlando
Turkey
Bangladesh
Iraq

[ansible]

122. Importing millions of horny men from a culture that doesn't respect women was a terrible idea (nt)

[YoungDemCA]

125. As if American culture was that much better on that front!

[KingCharlemagne]

127. we confined our sexual predation to indigenous and slave women. So

we deserve some credit!

[ismnotwasm]

131. Jesus no shit

Women in the US are groped and raped and harassed every day.

[Lizzie Poppet]

143. Key term: "was."

For all our many and serious faults, we're not a culture mired in vile, medieval misogyny.

[seabeyond]

148. Hmmmm.

[Calculating]

174. Well

At least we have laws against it and it's not openly condoned by decent society.

[snooper2]

177. a shitload better actually...

[seabeyond]

133. Here is the issue, as I read this argument. We have a large immigration from ME in our community.

There are pockets thru out the U.S. We do not have this issue. Stating it is cultural or inherent in some way, has to be factually incorrect. There are other elements. So, lets move past it. Why are there these issues?

Placing male dominate of girl, hence allow the oversight for females. There are not the boundaries, if these societies do not create the boundaries. Think football star and frat boy privilege over our girls raped. Lacking boundaries, hence continually pushed.

Would be my point.

[Democat]

135. It may also be related to the screening process used by the United States

It's hard to get into the United States as a visitor, no less to live in the United States.

[ismnotwasm]

137. Excellent point

Where are roving bands of immigrants in the US committing these crimes out of proportion to their numbers? We know sexual assault is epidemic everywhere, rape culture exists in every culture, we know that the most men are NOT rapists, but are often participants in Rape culture-- what is happening in Sweden and Germany aside from immigrant policy?

[romanic]

158. The difference with the ME immigration between the US and what's going on in Europe is vetting.

Plus our immigration from the ME happened decades ago and those immigrants, mostly the men, came for jobs and business - not just for refuge.

I live near Dearborn, MI which has the largest arab-population and the largest amount of arab-owned businesses (bakeries, grocery stores, offices, etc) that were started by these immigrants. There's very little crime regarding domestic or sexual assault in Dearborn because the people there are multi-generational, have families, jobs and pride. Of course the arab population in Dearborn have settled there for up to a century by now and have acclimated to the moral values and laws shared by fellow American citizens. You just can't say the same for these migrants in Europe who are commiting sexual assault and rape, there is no comparison.

[seabeyond]

160. The immigration in our city is not long past. It is recent, too. Especially Afghanistan, Iraq and

Somalia.

[Odin2005]

136. Funny, when a white Western person commits a crime only the individual is blamed...

...but when a Muslim refugee commits a crime suddenly all Muslims are at fault.

[bdwker]

138. Tunnel vision much ?

[Odin2005]

139. No, just pointing out the casual prejudice that comes out every time...

...a Muslim does something bad. Making the entire group guilty for the actions of an individual is a comment element of prejudiced, bigoted thinking.

[FixTheProblem]

141. Funny, when a Black working class American votes republican, only the individual is blamed...

...but when a white working class American votes republican, suddenly all whites are at fault.

[oberliner]

150. There is nothing saying "all Muslims are at fault"

It ought to be possible to read a story like this and conclude that something ought to be done to prevent children and teens from being sexually assaulted at music festivals.

It really seems like that ought to be the focus here.

[Quantess]

161. Who said anything like "all muslims"?

As far as I can see, not a single DUer is blaming "all muslims" for anything. If I am mistaken, please point out a specific post that broadbrushes all muslims.

By the way, the original swedish articles do not state the accused's religion; only that they are young males from the middle east and north africa.

[pnwmom]

162. Who is blaming all Muslims? But when a large group of men is attacking

women and girls, that's a very serious thing.

[FixTheProblem]

140. The elephant in the room keeps getting bigger and bigger.

Better watch what I say though, don't want to be a bigot...

[Calculating]

154. The writing is on the wall

People just chose to ignore it.

[Marr]

145. Look at all the excuses in this thread.

The cognitive dissonance is incredible.

[davidn3600]

147. It's just incredible how so-called "progressives" cant bring themselves to criticize this

It's like that religion and culture can do no wrong.

If it is a "oppressed group," then we can make excuses for them or even have the government cover up the crimes. Or heck, in Germany when this happened, you had feminists BLAMING THE WOMEN! The female mayor of Cologne blamed the victims' attire instead of blaming the young migrants.

And we wonder why Brexit happened??? You can't even trust the government to give you the facts anymore.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

149. This thread has been one of the most enlightening --

and sickening -- of my almost 15 years on this site.

[killbotfactory]

163. Yeah, wtf. nt

[TexasBushwhacker]

175. They said they are "youth" but I wonder how many

emigrated by themselves and how many with families. Maybe they need to restrict the immigration of single males.