Sorry, but I am not comfortable with local police forces using explosives on citizens

[morningfog]

To be clear, I am not comfortable with police forces and their monopoly on violence, generally. And while I do understand and respect that their are rare instances in which deadly force may be required, it is far more often abused.

And I get that "dead is dead" and many, perhaps most, will say "why does it matter how he was killed if the killing justified?" Maybe I am unable to, at this point, articulate it properly. But, I am just not okay with domestic police forces using bombs against anyone.

[Kelvin Mace]

1. Welcome to the future of law enforcement

Wait until the armed drones arrive.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

17. Send in the drones. Don't borher, they're here.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/08/27/435301160/north-dakota-legalizes-armed-police-drones

[geardaddy]

33. Goddamn it.

[LuvNewcastle]

69. That is the stuff of nightmares.

[BlueStateLib]

93. A drone-powered machine gun

?quality=55&strip=all

[tblue37]

25. "RoboCop" might have been a documentary, like "Idiocracy.". nt

[Javaman]

58. you mean it wasn't? nt

[TeeYiYi]

108. A good movie about...

...the moral dilemma of being an American drone pilot:



TYY

[Mika]

2. The police bombed Operation Move in Phily a few decades age, dropped a barrel bomb...

Last edited Fri Jul 8, 2016, 03:43 PM - Edit history (1)

... On their appt bldg where they were holed up.

[morningfog]

4. I am familiar. I know it is not without precedent.

I don't think that was at all right, either.

[Mika]

11. Oh, I agree 1000%. eom

[eppur_se_muova]

39. And that worked out so well ...

Burned down most of the block, as I recall.

[Loki Liesmith]

66. MOVE, not Push.

[Mika]

75. Thanks.

Corrected.

[Loki Liesmith]

83. No problem. I lived not too far from them

They were obnoxious but what happened to them was unconscionable.

[Statistical]

3. I think the very fact that the Police even have explosive weaponry is part of a larger problem ...

... the militarization of the Police.

I served in the military you don't want the military (any military even a well trained one) policing your citizens. Our country was very aware of the dangers of using the military as a police force. So aware in fact they passed laws making it illegal for the military to act as a police force. Now we have done an end run around that by turning the police into a second military.

When I was in Iraq painted on the wall of our barracks was the phrase "have a plan to kill everyone you meet today". Now it didn't mean kill everyone but rather at any point in time at any situation be aware than anyone could be the enemy and base decision on that reality. It influences your decision making process and thinking. You look at everything differently. Why is that guy standing there? Why did that woman make a call right after we got out of the trucks? Where is the exits? How many "civilians" are between us and the rest of the convoy? If we took fire right now where could we fall back to? If I was the enemy and wanted to kill this squad how would I do it?

You don't want police pretending to be soldiers. Soldiers exist to wage war.

[RobinA]

13. Well Said

Part of the problem is that after 9/11 the government was giving away all kinds of money to police forces for anti terrorist equipment. Hence, robot bombers.

[Ms. Toad]

89. Actually, they were giving away the surplus military equipment,

And one of the strings attached to the equipment was that it had to be used within a certain period of time (I believe 1 year). That accelerated militarization of local law enforcement because of the use it or lose it provision.

[getagrip_already]

97. Most of this list...

Is either self defense or small arms. It's bad, but not evil. The problem with police having anti personnel mines, frag grenades, flame throwers, anti tank weapons, mortars, etc, is that not only do they rise to wmd status, they initiate a suburban arms raca.

If the Bundy's of the world see the police using them, they will find a way to get them. And then we will live in war zones. We will have our own blue lines.

[oswaldactedalone]

5. It was him or them

and he wouldn't give up. His miserable life is now in pieces. Good riddance.

[840high]

72. Agreed.

[alc]

6. I'm with you

Had to hear and read it quite a few times before I believed it really happened. I'll wait to hear the justification before final judgement and give a lot of benefit of the doubt to law enforcement on the ground but my initial response was "that can't be acceptable in any way."

[tonyt53]

7. It kept others out of harms way.

[Zambero]

8. Did the shooter indicate that bombs were placed in other locations?

I believe that he did. And is the technology readily available to remotely detonate them? I understand that this is the case. Did LE make efforts to negotiate with him prior to using deadly force? Reportedly they did. Apparently he was not a rational person. Not an easy decision, to be sure.

[lunatica]

32. Your point is excellent

The bomb wasn't to punish the terrorist. It was to stop him from killing more people. I can't stand in judgement of something I might do under similar conditions.

[LisaM]

9. That actually struck me, too.

I didn't realize that police generally carried bombs (or had access to them).

[Abnredleg]

16. They used a bomb disposal robot

and explosive charges are often used in bomb disposal.

[getagrip_already]

68. it was a claymore, not a bomb....

MSNBC reported it was literally a claymore mine. An anti-personnel device. Military ordinance. Delivered at the request of the mayor (but don't know from where).

What the hell right does a local PD have with f'in anti-personnel mines? What else do they have? Cluster bombs? White Phospherous? Napalm?

They had other lethal options. They wanted the shooter dead. I get that. But using a friggin claymore is way out of bounds.

[Ms. Toad]

90. You might be surprised what else they have, courtesy of the 1033 program.

Here's some background: http://fcnl.org/issues/militarism/aclu_report_finds_concerning_trend_in_militarization_of_us_police/

Equipment available to local law enforcement agencies directly through the 1033 program, or for purchase by way of grants from the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice includes (but is not limited to): automatic and semi-automatic rifles, MARCbots (weaponizable robots used in Afghanistan), MRAPs (mine-resistant ambush protected vehicles), sniper rifles, flashbang grenades, submachine guns, drones, and armored BearCats. Over a third of the equipment attained through 1033 is brand new. Unsurprisingly, “War Comes Home” found that police militarization often leads to tragedies for civilian and police officers, an increased risk of unnecessary violence, the destruction of personal property, and the undermining of civil liberties.

[rollin74]

10. whether by bullet or bomb. the sniper is dead

and that's a good thing

[billhicks76]

27. Anything Used In Iraq Will Eventually Be Used At Home

Drones are just a matter of time.

[Oneironaut]

99. Escalation works both ways, unfortunately.

Every bit of militarism brought home to our police also bleeds into civilian life. This would further drive an increasingly dangerous wedge between civilians and cops.

We need cops to be friends of the community, not an occupying army driving around in military vehicles with military hardware. It'll start a war.

[Cayenne]

76. Team America! Fuck Yeah!

[Bonx]

12. I'll disagree and say this was well played.

[TheCowsCameHome]

14. Give the robot a promotion.

In this situation, it was a great way to stop the killer from doing more harm.

He would've offed himself eventually, anyway.

[FLPanhandle]

15. Bow & arrow, gun, boomerang, etc.; I'm just glad they stopped him

Before he could kill or injure others

[Kali]

18. it is a tool just like a gun is a tool

the problem is the context of use. the militarization of domestic law enforcement is a real problem. I feel the same way as you. very uncomfortable with it. I understand the situation intellectually, but my gut is wary.

[Agschmid]

48. Yup.

[Oneironaut]

100. I'm glad he's dead, but I'm worried about equipment creep

Today it's a shooter. Tomorrow it's someone who forgot to take their meds and locked themselves in their mom's room. As ridiculous as this sounds, police with new equipment will be tempted to use it in inappropriate situations.

I don't want the police using bombs, hellfire missile drones, or APCs with mounted .50 cal mgs. Letting the police use any equipment at their disposal is downright dangerous, no matter how good the intentions of giving them said equipment are.

[Mojorabbit]

111. That is just how I feel

I understand it but it also makes me uneasy.

[Agnosticsherbet]

19. How many more dead cops would be a acceptible loss

To remove this sniper from his nest?

If it took 1 or 5 or 10 more deaths to remove him from his location, would that be acceptable?

Police carry explosoves as part of their bomb disposal tool kit.

[romanic]

20. So what would have been your solution?

It's easy to say you're uncomfortable behind a computer screen, imagine how the officers and the negotiator felt trying to get the gunman to surrender while knowing or not knowing if his bluff about planting bombs was legit.

[awake]

30. I do not know the details but could of the robot had a taser?

If the shooter was keep alive we could have learned more like where he got the guns and amno did any help him ect...

[milestogo]

43. They will figure out where he got the guns and ammo fairly easily.

He said he acted alone. But how can you trust the word of someone who is trying to kill you?

[awake]

56. exactly

If he was no longer some where where he could hurt anyone then just wait him out but if he was still shooting then something need to be done. I am just wondering if they were able to use a robot which is usually slow did they need to blow him up?

[milestogo]

61. Yeah it sounds gruesome.

I had no idea the police had this capability.

[Faux pas]

21. Yeah

that blew me away! No pun intended. The true militarization of our police force.

[Motley13]

22. The police had no choice

He could have killed dozens of others

[rockfordfile]

23. I agree to some of that.

[geek tragedy]

24. there should be some rules around the use of high explosives

in this case it's hard to fault the PD for making sure that the villain in question didn't get a chance to claim any more victims

[billhicks76]

28. Anything We Murdered Iraqis With Will Be Used Here

As far as I'm concerned we are all going to Hell.

[billhicks76]

41. It's A Matter Of Time Before Drones

And as a nation we all have collective blood of innocents on our hands. Just because you don't live on a block in Iraq where families were murdered in the hundreds of thousands doesn't mean you can escape the karma for what was done in your name with your tax dollars. Iraqis did nothing to us and we destroyed them. We had a responsibility as a free people to stop our government and corporations from raizing that country. It's easy to dismiss out of mind out of sight maybe but reality catches up. We have a bunch of insane people running things and it's all just going to get more out of hand when we do nothing to make a more peaceful world. Idiocracy is already here.

[Ms. Toad]

92. No - it's very muuch about weaponry, provided to local law enforcement, among others

courtesy of the 1033 program.

Equipment available to local law enforcement agencies directly through the 1033 program, or for purchase by way of grants from the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice includes (but is not limited to): automatic and semi-automatic rifles, MARCbots (weaponizable robots used in Afghanistan), MRAPs (mine-resistant ambush protected vehicles), sniper rifles, flashbang grenades, submachine guns, drones, and armored BearCats.

http://fcnl.org/issues/militarism/aclu_report_finds_concerning_trend_in_militarization_of_us_police/

[Bernardo de La Paz]

29. I think you are being unnecessarily weirded out, but ...

... there is the MOVE police fire-bombing in Philadelphia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing

In 1985, another standoff ended when a police helicopter dropped two bombs on their compound, which was a row house in the middle of Osage Avenue. This killed eleven MOVE members, including Africa and five children. Fire destroyed 65 houses and prompted widespread news coverage.

[Dreamer Tatum]

34. If you're 'sorry,' then you present your opinion with some doubt.

which in my opinion is warranted, since I am completely comfortable with cops eliminating an admitted
mass murderer with a bomb.

[jtuck004]

35. We've been using them on other country's children and families for so long,

it just seems natural.

[reign88]

36. I'm all for it

Had they gone in, it's likely the dead and wounded count would have been higher. To me, this was the right call in a very extreme situation.

Plus, it worked perfectly, so I'm not sure what the concern is. If this becomes a common place tactic for dealing with everyday crime, I can see your concern, but in this case?

Job well done.

[NoMoreRepugs]

37. If remote controlled bombs are acceptable then drones

certainly cant be far behind for domestic police forces - my problem is the individuals controlling/manning these killing machines - do they have the level of training that the military requires for individuals that use these weapons?? That puts a whole lot of faith into the men and women in blue.

[milestogo]

38. If the public were not armed so heavily there would be no need for this.

Take away the weapons that make law enforcement impossible.

[treestar]

79. True

And cops would not be so quick to think they were threatened.

[HeartoftheMidwest]

40. Thanks, morningfog.

I am being ripped on another thread (Dallas shooting: Suspect Killed By Police Wanted To "Kill White Officers" ) for bringing up this exact point.
NO ONE argues that what the shooter did was in any way justifiable. But he was cornered ( say reports; that might change ) and police negotiated with him for at least two hours.

It is DEEPLY DISTURBING that police would remotely blow that suspect up, without more of an effort to capture him alive, and bring him to trial....IF POSSIBLE.

[The CCC]

55. Thanks, morningfog.

He was armed to the teeth threatening to kill any that entered. Would you want to be the first one in?

[HeartoftheMidwest]

64. If he was truly cornered, as reports say,....

...I wouldn't enter. No need to. Just sit and wait him out.
Or try tear gas.
I just don't want this to be a situation were the police were hell-bent on revenge, and wanted him dead at any cost. And did everything possible to do just that.
We're supposed to be a nation of laws ( if you didn't gag on that, or fall out of your chair laughing, I'll continue.... ) and it would have been proper, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, to wait the suspect out and see if they could talk him out...get a loved one or a former Army buddy the suspect trusted ( ? ) to talk to him, and arrest him, if * p o s s i b l e. *

[StraightRazor]

84. Yeah, I agree with you...

The other option (if he could no longer actually shoot anyone and was in fact 'contained') would be to wait for those things that make us human to interfere with his rampage - such as hunger, or sleep - they most certainly could have simply waited for him to give up. If he decided to end his own life rather than being taken alive then so be it, but I'm more or less sure that the police who had him cornered were vying with one another to be the one to blow his head off. They were probably pissed that a robot was used. No way was he going to be taken alive if they could help it.

[pinboy3niner]

45. That's perfectly fine...

...may we just confirm your address?

[Rex]

107. .

[Recursion]

46. Weren't they explosives the shooter set up?

I see that as very different

[morningfog]

51. That's not my understanding.

[Recursion]

52. I've mostly been in airports for 24 hours so I'm probably wrong

But the last thing I read was that they detonated the bombs he had set, which killed him.

[Joe the Revelator]

49. The shooter was given time to give himself up. He refused and continued to fire on police officers..

Nobody should have to die because a nut has a deathwish. In this instance, proper force was used.

[Cryptoad]

53. Robo Cop?

Does this now mean that all idiots will be entitled to have one these RoboBombs under their 2th amend rights?

[linuxman]

54. I'm comfortable with whatever they had to do to kill the SOB.

So I suppose it evens out.

Would you go after him with a pistol and a "good luck!"?

[SunDrop23]

63. What Linuxman said. Succinct. To the point. Discomfort? Give me a break. (nfm)

[sarisataka]

57. I understand

That the use of explosives is stepping it up to another level.

However had they used a sniper to shoot him the end result would be the same, almost assuredly a kill. Would you have the same trouble with that?

[Ash_F]

59. I think they were improvising because they did not know what else to do.

I am sure this was not part of the protocol.

I am not excusing it. Maybe it would have been better for them wait it out. I am sure they were afraid he would charge them eventually.

It is definitely something that needs to be discussed.

[Teamster Jeff]

60. Just read a tweet......

"look at the bright side. If you are white the "bomb bot" brings you Burger King instead."

[Lil Missy]

62. Considering his actions earlier, and continued threats, it was the right thing to do.

[Lance Bass esquire]

65. If law enforcement is 100% sure that they have the right suspect in a mass

shooting in their sights. I say do what you have to. You can't wait to see what a disturbed maniac with a gun will do next.

In war shit goes south real fast and I bet if you were one of those Dallas cops last night you sure as hell felt like you were in one.

JMHO

[Schema Thing]

67. Well it may have been the FBI. They were there.

[passiveporcupine]

70. I would have preferred a robot be used to deliver a gas of some kind

to imobilize him.

But monopoly on violence? Are you kidding? It is gun owners in this country (and the NRA) who have a monopoly on violence.

[redstateblues]

101. He was given a chance to turn himself in. He didn't want to live.

[passiveporcupine]

102. That doesn't change the fact

that there might have been a better way of dealing with this than blowing him up.

[X_Digger]

104. Knockout gases are mostly a hollywood invention. (Especially in an open air place.)

There is no magic smoke bomb that will quickly immobilize someone temporarily. Yeah, there are some gases that would work fast.. but they'd be deadly.

[passiveporcupine]

105. Yeah, porbably...it would be nice though

Even tear gas might have caused him to come out of his cover, if he didn't have some kind of mask.

[TeeYiYi]

110. Gas is a little unpredictable...

Think the Moscow Theater Hostage Crisis. In addition to the 40 bad guys, they accidentally killed about 130 of the hostages.

TYY

[sulphurdunn]

71. I have concerns

about the militarization of law enforcement, but in this case they should have taken that fucker out with a flame thrower.

[JCMach1]

73. As a response to someone who may have a suicide belt, it makes sense

If it is suicide by cop, let's not get anyone else killed.

[Demonaut]

74. I hope the robot is ok

[bvar22]

77. Last year,

an infant was nearly killed by a SWAT Team that threw a Flash Bang grenade into the infant's crib.
New Low: Sheriff’s Office Claims Infant at Fault for SWAT Team Blowing His Face Apart with Grenade
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/infant-responsible-grenade-thrown-face/

I don't believe that our police need bombs and grenades (and Claymore mines!!!!) to Protect and Serve.
The potential for "collateral damage" is too high...in fact it is a certainty.
How many SWAT Teams raid the wrong house?
Oops!

There are other ways to get this job done.
The police have handled barricaded snipers in the past without using bombs.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

78. The cops are supposed to be servants of the court....

Not killers.

[tavernier]

80. I'm not comfortable knowing there is a nut walking around

with an automatic gun looking to shoot me. And if I had been in his target range last night, he would have happily obliged.

I bet the additional ppl that he didn't kill are delighted that bomb bott got to him first.

[NCTraveler]

81. K&R Every word of it. Nt

[rock]

82. It's a similar case to the Death Penalty

I cannot approve of allowing the government to take it's citizens lives. You know politicians and you know how untrustworthy they are.

[Calculating]

85. It's quite alarming

How is this really any different than just blowing the building up with a drone? It sets a bad precedent.

[LWolf]

86. Neither am I. nt

[pintobean]

87. Police forces have a monopoly on violence?

Not even close.

[msanthrope]

88. I suspect there is a great irony here. You know who uses bomb robots? The military.

I think he knew what was coming when the thing rolled to him.

[ecstatic]

91. My problem with it is the destruction of evidence. A lot of questions

will never be answered.

[msanthrope]

94. Name one that wouldn't be answered. nt

[BainsBane]

95. Police don't have a monopoly on violence

Gun proliferation has ensured that deadly violence is widespread. We have the highest homicide rate in the industrialized world.

The gunman had been shooting at police and whoever was in the vicinity. I do not believe your distaste for bombs is more important than the lives threatened.

[merrily]

96. In one speech, the Dallas police chief said his department was not going to militarize.

In another speech, he reported that "news" of the suspect's suicide was incorrect and that a bomb had been attached to a drone and used to kill the suspect. I am not sure if the two statements are consistent with each other or not. I need to think more about all of this when I can be dispassionate because, my emotions around death by cop have been strong and tangled for quite some time.

[Matt_R]

98. As long as the military and police disarm themselves first, gun control can happen. n/t

[FXSTD]

103. I am very thankful we have officers that are comfortable doing what I'm not to save lives of innocen

[sinkingfeeling]

106. Agreed.

[Rex]

109. They use bullets all the time. They kill you pretty dead too. Deader then dead.

He should have stopped shooting at them. Nobody expects the exploding robocop.