Why these radicals drink, watch porn etc. Some background

[agnostic102]

My posts arent very popular here as i speak about things that are a bit uncomfortable and i understand. But for the few who read it and learn a bit about the middle east and islam i hope that it helps. (im agnostic now hense my name but im an exmuslim and apostate which unfortunately for me if i went back to my country id be executed so im happy to be here =) )

People are generally confused when it comes to islam and specifically Muslims in general regarding things like porn, pork, and other things considered "haram" in islam.

First if you are a muslim , leaving your religion is extremely extremely hard. Even the victims that get executed for offensis agianst islam are allowed to pray before there death. So having sex outside of marriage doesnt mean you are no longer a muslim it just means the penalty is you will be stoned to death. but you still are a muslim and will be allowed to say your prayers before the rocks come flying essentially. Many many times these victims will be buried in traditional Muslim burials.

So to explain the 9-11 highjackers who went to strip clubs and this attacker in france. Living in a middle eastern country you are forbidden to have relationships with women outside of your family, and there is a lot of pressure on you to do the right thing and live according to sharia.

One of the easiest recruits for groups like isis and al quida , however, are muslims who have gone astray. Guilt, pressure on there families all plays into it. if they become suicide bombers then there misdeeds get washed away. Dying in the sake of jihad is one of the highest things you can do in islam so your past mistakes get cleansed.

Thats why the Orlando shooter who might have been gay himself and grew up listening to a homophobic father talk about how gays are terrible is the hallmark of someone who will go crazy from repressed feelings. You will hear more and more about the attacker in france.. how he might have lost hes children, how he had a terrible relationship with hes family. that he was an alcoholic etc..

For this jihadist he came to a point in hes life where hes life was shit in this world. Hes salvation was for the world after which many muslims believe in dearly. By committing this act he proves to hes handlers like isis and other extremist and wahabbis that hes atoned for hes sins and he should be allowed in heaven.

An example of this is going to be the extremist reactions on the internet. Hes porn addiction, or eating porn wont be the topic. it will be how he fought in the name of allah and are praised by radicals online and in private conversations. Hes haram misgivings will no longer matter. In essense he made the perfect jihadist. someone with a terrible life, wrapped up in guilt of hes life living outside of sharia and finally making atone and coming back to hes religion. at least the way the extremist interpret it anyway.

This is why you constantly hear from many of the families of these attackers "ohh he never went to mosque, ohh he never prayed , ohh he drank alcohol" the fact is none of this matters once jihad is factored hes in decision making. I hope this helps answer some questions.

[villager]

1. Thanks for posting. I was thinking very similar things a few moments ago

...after reading about the Nice attacker.

A lot of this recent terrorism seems to be coming as "last ditch" acts by, as you note, people whose lives were already "finished" (from their standpoints), seeking to "atone" by ending things in the proverbial blaze of glory.

This is different from "classic" terrorism, where events might have been plotted for (seeming, if fucked up) political ends.

Now, increasingly, we are seeing mass murders labeled "terrorism" when they're the last-ditch act of sociopaths.

Exactly the thing many other posters worried about here for years, with the setting off of "stochastic" terrorism. One wonders how close the U.S. is to having some "native sons" similarly flip out.

Thanks again for the post. And by all means -- stay where you're safe!

[Skinner]

2. Interesting post.

I think there is an assumption that if someone does something terrible that appears to be motivated in part by religion, then they are probably hardcore fundamentalist true-believer types. You provide an plausible explanation for why some perpetrators of these terrible acts of violence are not the most observant Muslims.

[agnostic102]

3. Thank you!

Skinner for allowing this forum and its great being here. Wanted to further expand upon religious guilt. (i wasnt raised christian or come from a christian family so maybe a christian can speak from there experience)

But in religion there is a lot of guilt. And having this over your heard is a heavy burden to carry. let me give you an example.

I left islam in my teens and become very "anti religion" in my twenties. Now married and grown up i still have lot of muslim family and friends.

A muslim family im very close to have a restaurant where i love eating. there food is amazing. Except during ramadan when we couldn't eat till about 8 or so i would avoid going into that restaurant. I know it sounds silly but this family just assumes im Muslim so any other time i went into there restaurant they would bring me plates of food and a drink etc. not during ramadan. they assumed i was fasting like they were. Now in the middle east breaken fast is serouse offense so that reason alone is enough not to do it. At least not in front of poeple. But here in western countries the family wouldnt have hated me or anything if had eaten. They might have looked twice or ask me why im not fasting but wouldn't love me any less.

This is where that guilt comes in. Even though i dont believe in ramadan anymore. because of society pressure and to keep this family in good faith with me since i care about them a lot. I would pretend i was fasting. Id come in for dinners and break fast with them and i would act like how tired and hungry i was.. but the truth was i had eaten like 4 hours before.

Now the question is why i havent told them im not muslim is a much more serouse topic. My wife told me just tell them you arent muslim (shes white raised catholic) and i told her " hun, this is not a joke, this isnt political statement, this isnt i left islam and i dont care who knows about it bravodo, my life is in danger. if word spreads in the community about me, maybe this family wouldnt do anything but a friend of theres a cousin an uncle might." leaving islam is no joke and when i tried to explain that to my western friends some are baffled others role there eyes. but we are talking about something very very serous and very very deadly. its not a " oh look at me thing" my life is on the line and yes is it much much lower risk then when i was in the middle east? yes but those fears still linger with you. Especially when you watch executions of poeple who are accused of being an apostate. its not a pleasant site.

[Mopar151]

5. Very similar issues in many US criminal gangs

Outlaw Bikers like Devil's Disciples, many Latino gangs, I'm sure there are others.

[sarae]

56. I can understand that fear...

sometimes it's best to let things go unsaid. You never know how someone (or someone's cousin, friend, etc) will react.

Thanks for your enlightening post.

[Mopar151]

4. I wonder how many hardcore fundamentalists of any stripe this aplies to.

A long term, well known white supermacist (name escapes me now) shot up a Jewish kindergarten in CA, exulted that he finally had the courage to act! All God's Chillen Gone Insane....

[agnostic102]

6. well just a clarification

in islam believe it or not. Your nationality or race dont really play a factor. The white supermacist hated blacks because of there skin color and jews for multitude of reasons. So for example if you are black , a Hispanic or anything he deems racially lower then him then he wont allow you to join hes book club.

Not so with wahhabi extremist. Your skin color and background doesn't matter to them. You could be a very dark skinned african and if you are the type of muslim that they agree with then you are welcome just as if you were white etc.

See one of the reasons why groups like isis kill is because they truly believe they are gods will on earth. And if you go against them that means you are going against god himself which is punishble by death. Also this is why they kill so many sunni muslims. even though isis is a sunni group. They kill sunni just as fast because the ones that appose them are going agianst god himself and thats a big no no.

[Albertoo]

47. Yes. Islam is just religious, not racial, supremacism.

But Arabs often behave as if they 'owned' Islam, and non-Arab Muslims resent them for that.

[Warpy]

7. I just wrote much the same thing on another thread

Jihadist garbage is as pervasive to Muslims as fundamentalist garbage is here. They've all heard the pitch and most are sensible enough to have rejected it as sheer lunacy.

However, this guy's life was in the toilet. Instead of being like an American and executing his property (his wife and 3 children) so no one else could have them, he sat in his truck, got drunk, and realized if he took a bunch of innocent people with him, they'd be his ticket into Jihadi Heaven, no matter what else he'd done here on earth.

Christianity and Islam both demand converts and martyrdom. Quite honestly, I find them equally scary.

[agnostic102]

8. hey warpy

I refrain from criticizing christians to much because iv been treated great here in the states and im very grateful to have been allowed to come here and live in freedom. with the exception of my high school teacher telling me that anyone who doesnt accept christ cannot go into heaven (he wouldnt say i was going to hell) i havent had to much of a bad experience. he was my wrestling coach and still love him but hes very christian =)

that being said.. im very weary of religion.. i know it sounds pathetic but i basically have PTSD from religion hahah

[Warpy]

10. I survived Catholic school

so I know exactly where you're coming from there.

A lot of people have PTSD from religion. I got disgusted with the whole thing at the ripe old age of ten.

[maassive]

23. hell

Hi, first time poster. I wanted to thank you for the testimony, which I found very interesting. And also react to your statement in one perticular regard: 'hell' as a place where you are punished eternally in flames is really only a US concept, based on very old translations of the bible that are prevalent here. You will also see it in communities around the world where the US religious organizations have influence, such as parts of Asia.

The Catholic bible does not have such a word, nor do most protestants in Europe. It was a concept that appeared in the first greek bibles to translate the work Sheol, but the translation is imperfect, and since the 13th or 14th century, the word 'hell' is not used in most english bibles. What they consider 'hell' is really 'limbo', meaning souls that do not accept god find themselves wandering until they do. So theoretically, your teacher is right: anyone who does not accept god - the christian god - does not go to heaven. That does not mean that in his eyes you are destined for hell. It could, but that's not sure, it depends on his version of the faith. In any case, that should not give a license to any christian to treat you, or me for that matter, since I'm an atheist, any differently.

[Warpy]

52. Welcome to DU

The fundamentalist hell is based on a selective gleaning of "The Divine Comedy." Dante based his own idea of hell on the Phlegrean Fields, the caldera of a supervolcano near Naples.

However, even Dante tells us the innermost circle of Hell, the place for the worst for the worst, is a place of extreme cold.

The idea is very appealing to people who want to hit back at the wicked but lack the means to do so.

[Duppers]

63. Nope.

The Christian (Catholic) Church has been intidimating people with a literal, fiery hell for much longer than the USA existed... so no! The idea is certainly not a US invention.

[OriginalGeek]

26. Fundamentalist Baptist survivor here

My wife says I criticize christians too much but I can only go with what I know. (I generally reserve my harsh criticism for fundamentalists like what I grew up with but I think all of religion is silly even while I recognize there are some beautiful people who practice all kinds of it.)
I really appreciate you telling us about what you know. Welcome to DU!

[Albertoo]

48. Except that he got help for the truck. It was rented, and needed help to get past security

There seems to be evidence of indirect contacts with radicals.

What makes the case exceptional is that it appears to be one of "flash"-radicalization:

extremely rapid.

[Warpy]

49. Right, dead civilians being his ticket to heaven after a life lived rottenly

DAESH has denied responsibility for this one. That's really low, they usually claim any violence by Muslims.

He got through security by claiming he was delivering ice cream.

[Albertoo]

51. Latest news: now, Daesh claims the Nice attack,

saying the truck driver/nutcase was one of their 'soldiers'

[Warpy]

55. Looks like a left hand/right hand situation to me

One blowhard says yes, another says no.

Personally, I think there was only the most tenuous of connections. And remember, the people being detained by the French police are being interrogated. They haven't been charged with anything. They might be, perhaps his boast in the bar was overheard and one of the local radicals spotted him as a useful idiot with a trucker's license.

[Albertoo]

58. From what I read, there's evidence of phone contact with radicals through intermediaries

That, plus evidence of cash paid, plus organizational help:

altogether, most likely a Daesh-aided job

[Yo_Mama]

54. His family said he just sent home a boatload of money. I suspect he got paid

Because he seems to have lost his job and his license over the minor charges, how he would get 100 grand otherwise is beyond me.

I can see how a person whose live is degenerating with preexisting mental problems might fall into this. Obviously he was a mean rotten-thinking person to do this, but if radicals got a hold of him, I think he might go with that.

[Albertoo]

57. Yup: money + a promise of paradise = a choleric goner becomes a ticking bomb

It's the "+ a promise of paradise" part of the equation which makes religions awful.

[FLPanhandle]

9. Great insight

Thanks for posting and welcome.

[Squinch]

11. Thank you. I did not know this. Your knowledge is a welcomed addition here. Welcome.

[NightWatcher]

12. Very similar to how Christians sin and aren't lesser Christians

They still get into heaven (per the dogma)

[agnostic102]

14. yes

im not a expert on christanity, but i was told once by a pastor that if hitler accepted jesus christ into hes heart before he died he would go to heaven. that was very odd for me.

[OriginalGeek]

27. The sect I grew up in believed that

We also believed "Once saved, Always saved". Anyone can accept christ and be saved and once done, God will never take back the gift of salvation. (There are christian sects that do believe you can lose your salvation but I'm not real clear on the inner workings of that as we were always taught once saved, always saved.)

Hitler, by the way, seems to have been a Catholic. But I don't think the Catholics claim him.


And the Baptists don't really accept Catholics so even among the religious, there is often cause for war.

[beaglelover]

13. So, it sounds to me like Islam is still to blame for many of these terrorist attacks. Some

terrorists are true believers in the most radical form of Islam, while others are strays from Islam and are committing these violent anti-social acts so they can die in good graces with Islam. Yeah, religion.

[agnostic102]

16. well

theres a lot of nuances, the family that owns the restaurant that i eat at i love them to death. they are consv muslims who pray and such. and please remember one of the biggest victims of wahhabi terror are MUSLIMS. in fact far more muslims have been killed then any christian due to wahhabi terrorism.

but if your point overall is religion can be dangerous. i wont argue with that. im not a fan of religion in general. i will admit buddhism and bahais seem like very nice poeple.

[beaglelover]

17. I understand about more muslims being killed by the terrorists. But there is NO other religion

committing these violent anti-social acts lately, other than muslims. Also, please explain why more moderate muslims don't condemn these terrorist acts? Why can't muslims just co-exist with the rest of us? Sorry if I seem mad, I'm just so fucking sick of these weekly muslim terrorist attacks.

[agnostic102]

20. beagle

My hearts breaks for you. the first execution i saw was a young boy who was accused of being a homosexual who was hanged from a crane on the main street where many of the young kids would walk to on there way to school. i remember him hanging there but he was very peaceful. I still think and hope that he did not feel pain.

The first stoning i saw i was sitting on my moms lap and she covered my eyes so i was able to avoid much of that while my mom cuddled me. unfortunately there was no safety the second time. The second stoning was of a women who had cheated on her husband and she wouldnt die from the rocks being thrown at her so her husband at the end grabbed a shovel and finished her off. Although this is a blurry for me as my older cousin years later told me that he took a big rock and smashed it over her head. But what difference does it make she was dead.

im sorry these things that affected me is now here and is affecting you. I could feel your anger and im so sorry you have to be witness to these things done in the name of religion. Unfortunately its not going to stop and europe will be the new battleground for these wahhabis in the 21st century. Dont let these reports of isis demise fool you. The word travels far and wide. especially with 21st centuary technology.

A bit ironic really.. middle ages evil barbarians like isis using techonology many times created by a jew.. (facebook, twitter, google)

[beaglelover]

21. Why did your Mom even take you to a stoning? WTF?

If that doesn't convince you and the rest of the world what a fucked up religion islam is, I don't know what will.

I just hope the USA does not follow Europe's mistake so we don't have more of these anti-social terrorist attacks in this country. Hope we are doing a much better job of vetting these immigrants from muslim countries.

[agnostic102]

22. Hi beagle

Sorry for the confusion. My english isnt that great and translation gets lost sometimes. My mom didnt take me to a stoning on purpose. The bus we were riding on was passing by the square where the stoning was happening and my mom tried to shield me from it.

The 2nd time it happend in our town and my mom did not know i had gone. I was a young child and a crowd of poeple and all my friends going to this "event" is what led me there. i had no idea what i was going to. I didnt even know what was happening at first until she started screaming for her kids. Then i just froze in place.

My mom is very anti violence. she abhors killing.

[beaglelover]

36. Thank you for the clarification.

[Mopar151]

28. Many White Supremacists identify as "Christians"

They even have an ideology / theology, they call "Christian Identity". They call folk of other colors "mud people".
Rev. Pete Peters is a name I remember, and the "movement" is shot through with beleivers. I also remember the term "blood in the face", describing "True Aryans" who are white enough that blushing shows. IIRC, one of the places Tim McVeigh spent time on his way to OKC was a "compound" called "Elohim City", in Arkansas.
The supremacists that Der Trumpenfurher has feeding into his twitter are currently pushing "White Holocaust" as a talking point, and fantasizing about "NOTR" - Night Of The Rope. Mc Veigh's devotional, "The Turner Diaries", is full of lynching imagery.
The saving grace, if any, is that the authour of The Turner Diaries told his trusted leutenant (Erich Glebe) on his deathbed that there were too many "defective humans" in the movement. Naturally, Gliebe turned out to be a major child molester, which seems to be the downfall of the whole movement in general, along with cheap beer and subterranian IQ.

[Yo_Mama]

35. As to why more "moderate Muslims" don't condemn the terrorist acts.

First, most Muslims will condemn some aspects of them.

But you have to understand that in modern Islam, a regression is occurring to a very fundamentalist interpretation of Islam, and the penalty for disagreeing with those who are preaching it is death. So few believing Muslims will argue that point, and even if they feel the person is wrong to do so, they will not say much publicly - to do so may get them declared apostates, and they may be murdered with impunity.

https://islamqa.info/en/31807

[Initech]

15. When I went to church they always tried to recruit people with vices.

And they would routinely guilt trip New recruits into repenting or being left behind. But they did have one thing in common: nearly every male member of that church that I talked to was obsessed with sex. Add that to taking away their vice of choice, and that's a toxic combination.

[Mopar151]

25. The worse you were, the better you'll be. n/t

[knightmaar]

18. I wonder if there's a parallel

... between this and the christian groups who like to whip themselves for their misdeeds. I'm thinking of those Opus Dei fanatics and their weird beliefs.

[nolabear]

19. I think this is an important point. Religion all too often uses shame to control. Research

shows that shame is the closest we can come to a feeling of impending death outside of actual physical threat, and we will do just about anything to avoid the feeling, including a whole lot of what we see in the political sphere today. Being welcomed back into the fold, even the fantasy of it post-death, drives many a self-proclaimed martyr.

One of the only things we can do to prevent people from running to do insane and psychologically self-protective things is to, as President Obama said, open our hearts. Or, as Ghandi said, take a Muslim (or Hindu) orphan in and raise him as a Muslim so we must understand what it is to be one.

This is what terrorism instill in us, a deep sense of fear that stirs up prejudices because we can't identify an easily recognizable enemy, of which we are ashamed, so we have to demonize and others, and one thing religion can do is smile and say "You're right. They ARE demons. Destroy them and you'll be loved and safe with us."

Now I'm going to go out on a limb here (and here you can see my internal conflict at work) and say I have known good things to come out of religion. Those who believe there is something bigger that binds us all can actually be helpful in helping reach across those bridges. But that's religion at it's highest, before people screw with it and use it to shame and manipulate that shame.

[bvar22]

24. Thank You.

Very insightful and well written, and like others in this thread, I could see the parallels with fundamentalist Christianity.
I don't know what the solution is,
but I'm sure the solution is NOT trying to bomb all Muslims in a misguided attempt to make the world "safe".

DURec.

[liberalnarb]

29. Agnostic, ex Muslim. Are you Cenk Uygur?

[lame54]

30. So he is a typical religious hypocrite...

But their was nothing typical about his heartless soulless act

[lostnfound]

31. Very interesting. So are there no easy routes to forgiveness?

Or is dying the only shortcut to wiping your sins clean??

[Yo_Mama]

34. Theologically, the only escape for hudud crimes is to suffer the penalty.

Hudud crimes are committed against Allah.

However the reason the orthodox imams describe hudud penalties as merciful under sharia is that the teaching is that undergoing the penalty with repentance restores you to good grace, so you can go to heaven after death. That is why Muslims are supposed to want to live under sharia - only that way can they be sure of not being tortured for eternity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudud

This bit from hadith kind of explains it:
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/017-smt.php#017.4206

Hard reading, so I won't list it here. But because the woman confessed and subjected herself to the punishment, Muhammed said she was forgiven by Allah.

See also 4207:

Imran b. Husain reported that a woman from Juhaina came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and she had become pregnant because of adultery. She said: Allah's Apostle, I have done something for which (prescribed punishment) must be imposed upon me, so impose that. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) called her master and said: Treat her well, and when she delivers bring her to me. He did accordingly. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about her and her clothes were tied around her and then he commanded and she was stoned to death. He then prayed over her (dead body). Thereupon Umar said to him: Allah's Apostle, you offer prayer for her, whereas she had committed adultery! Thereupon he said: She has made such a repentance that if it were to be divided among seventy men of Medina, it would be enough. Have you found any repentance better than this that she sacr ficed her life for Allah, the Majestic?

Suicide is a crime in Islam; suicidal persons may only escape by dying as witnesses for Allah's cause.

[Yo_Mama]

32. I think the radical preachers seek these types out and exploit them.

Lord knows there have been cases of individuals in Muslim countries caught out and basically forced to engage in a terrorist act - they're basically told they will be killed and go to hell or they can die as a martyr and go to heaven.

Thanks for posting - you are right that most here won't want to hear this.

I am glad you are here too, and I hope all like you get refuge in the west. But not those who want to kill you for being yourself.

[pangaia]

33. What are your impressions of Ibn Arabi,

Farid al-Din Attar, Shāms-i Tabriz, Mewlānā Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Balkhi, and more recently, Tosun Bayrak and Muzaffer Ozak Ashki al-Jerrahi ?

[Albertoo]

50. The Sufis revere Muhammad, whom the Sunna presents as less than perfect

Paradoxical for mystics..

[Warren DeMontague]

37. Religion 101: Make people feel guilty for natural things that everyone already does.

Then, use that guilt to control them.

[treestar]

38. informative thank you

[DanTex]

39. Interesting post. Thanks.

[babylonsister]

40. Rec'd with thanks for sharing.

The more we know...

[Quayblue]

41. Thanks for your thoughts. Welcome to DU.

[LeftRant]

42. When will they stop teaching their children to believe they can redeem every sin with murder?

That seems to be the core of what you're saying is the problem.

[Tobin S.]

43. This is an excellent thread, agnostic102.

Very illuminating. K&R.

[Martin Eden]

44. Is redemption through jihadist martyrdom universally embraced by muslims?

Also, doesn't the Koran have passages against the killing of innocents?

I can understand why mentally distraught individuals would seek redemption and heaven by committing an act of terrorism, but psychological desperation doesn't explain the leaders at the head of organizations like Daesh.

[agnostic102]

45. well innocent

is a loaded term generally when it comes to religion.. im an apostate im no longer innocent.. homosexuals are not innocent.. adulters are no longer innocent. Thats just with within the koran.. then groups like isis consider anyone who goes agianst there version of islam to be going agianst god himself so obvously there not innocent.

The thin line between an innocent and non innocent is very thin and very loose.


ALSO i should make this point.

A lot of radical muslims and groups who blow up places to kill shias.. or christians.. or westerners and end up killing say a innocent sunni muslim. That to them is justified because as far there concerned that sunni muslim is just going to go to heaven anyway so its not like they did much harm. heck with the way most of them think they did that muslim a favour but sending him to paradise.

[Arazi]

46. Thank you for this. Bookmarking

[Albertoo]

53. Just curious: which country are you originally from? Iran?

[Ilsa]

59. Those factors within the religion,

seducing the less perfect for the ultimate sacrifice, the offering of heaven for martyrdom for jihad, make this part of the religion more like a cult.

[KT2000]

60. Thank you!

This is why I love DU - we get to LEARN about so much. What you posted is really important to understand.

I have a friend who came to the US from China. Her childhood was during the Cultural Revolution. She too witnessed, by accident, hangings of people in the town. They were accused of various crimes but essentially they did not follow the communist doctrine. Of course the hangings were also a way to get rid of people who were a problem to those who held local power for any number of reasons.

I believe the underlying principle here is power, which is ultimately ego driven, which is the antithesis to god or powerful leader (Mao)worship.

[jonno99]

61. And what is worse is - they hate our doggies!:

http://4publicpurity.org/

(I could live with the other stuff...)

[agnostic102]

62. oh my god about dogs!!

i was never allowed to have a dog growing up. as my mom got older and the kids moved away her and my dad now much older were so alone.

On a trip i brought back home a little pomchi (mixed pamaranion spelling?) and this little dog is now my moms entire life. She prays to god that he take her before the dog because she would not make it without him.

This is a women where our friends dogs were not allowed over when we were kids because my parents considered them dirty.

in iran im not sure if this is still happening but in many cities government city workers inject stray dogs with acid to kill them. There was a video online i saw a while back that reminded me of it and i instantly started crying because iv become such a baby towards animal cruelty.

especially dogs. how can anyone hurt these beautiful loving loyal animals. Im not a violent person although iv lived through war. but if i had gotten my hands on that bastard that was injecting those dogs i probably would have strangled him to death. thinking about it now enrages me.

[Sam_Fields]

64. All religion is a poison to the human mind and condition

Believing that there is some god in the sky that is worried about you eating pork or having sex while unmarried is a self delusion. We are born then live our life then we die.
However, religion is a good tool to get people to murder other people or die trying.

[agnostic102]

65. i have sadly

given up on religion. not ready to give up on god as there is existance and life and creation and there is a chance of a higher being.. but religion is bs.