Police officer executes Hispanic man during struggle over gun [Graphic]

[WhisCo]

Were all these bullets really necessary? Why not contain him on the bus and negotiate..

[JanMichael]

1. I only watched it once but it was chaos.

The guy almost got the gun from the first officer then it was hard to see after the second one got into the fight.

Execution? Not really sure I'd go that far.

The guy chased down running away getting shot? Yes. Fruitville Station? Yes. The cop blasting into the car last week? Yes yes yes.

This one? Not so sure about calling it that.

[sarae]

2. Awful...I can't bring myself to watch.

[TeddyR]

3. He attacked a police officer

Tried to take her gun and was shot. Perhaps the first police officer didn't have to go in the bus but wouldn't question anything else.

[840high]

24. Agreed.

[Fred Drum]

31. richard poplawski shot the first cop he saw

he survived

edit: 3 cops didnt

[Fred Drum]

32. agreed ?

one word explains everything

try again , after thinking about it

[larkrake]

110. as I see it she instigated the struggle.

[Straw Man]

117. How?

By attempting to apprehend him? That's her job.

[uppityperson]

4. Maybe they could not come in pointing guns at the crazy man. Take some time instead.

[Joe the Revelator]

7. They were trying to protect the bus driver who was stuck inside with that nut.

[uppityperson]

9. Maybe approach him without guns drawn, take some time instead

Last edited Tue Jul 19, 2016, 11:09 PM - Edit history (1)

[yeoman6987]

14. What about the bus driver? No use saving the driver?????

[uppityperson]

15. Don't try to put words in my mouth. Waving guns was dangerous for the bus driver too.

[yeoman6987]

17. Ok. I wasn't trying to. Sorry. It may have been poorly written and executed.

[LanternWaste]

46. Odd that you're only able to perceive two and only two possibilities.

Odd that you're only able to perceive two, and only two possibilities. Well, not so much as odd... just a little dogmatic.

[brush]

51. Come on, we saw the video. The bus driver was pretty big . . .

could've taken that little guy out by himself since there was no gun involved.

The cops should have gotten him off then tried to talk the other guy down first.

Shooting should've been the last resort.

But we get it, you favor killing.

[TipTok]

78. Uh huh...

&maintainAspectRatio=true&maxHeight=300&maxWidth=300

[larkrake]

112. he was not stuck, the person was not blocking him

[Joe the Revelator]

5. If there was ever a time for lethal force, that was probably it.

That guy was going to kill someone.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. I don't think I'd call this an execution

I think the cop with the skinny sunglasses on should lose his job for a lack of self control. I don't mean to diminish what happened, but even if the shooting is found righteous (I think it should be), he was firing long after there was a need to do so. Shows me lack of self control and lack of professionalism.

[Throd]

8. He shouldn't have gone for her gun...

but he appeared to be mentally unstable. Shit happens so fast.

[brush]

10. Why is it always they reach for their gun first?

Everybody but the driver was already off the bus. Have the driver get off and negotiate first.

It was pretty obvious that guy was off his meds or something.

The guy didn't have a gun, slow down instead of rushing in with guns drawn, deescalate the situation by seeing where talking and containing him in the bus goes.

With all the back-up pulling up, where was the guy going to go?

Why are they always looking to shoot?

[uppityperson]

16. Thank you. I am glad someone else sees that too.

[brush]

22. Yes, many of us, even on this progressive site, need to reassess how we view police actions.

Last edited Wed Jul 20, 2016, 01:31 AM - Edit history (2)

There is way too much single-minded aggression by police going on out there that too many of us immediately side with. Why are we so willing to accept death? That guy didn't have to die. He was trapped on a bus and obviously deranged. No need to rush a trapped guy with guns drawn.

"Officers, try talking him down first, you can always blast him later if that doesn't work .

I know that's not your "preferred" way to operate, but try it. It's much less stressful, you know, could calm down some of that ol' roid rage "

[ohnoyoudidnt]

70. How did the cops know everyone else was off the bus?

Cops have to chase people down all the time. Very few pull a gun or try to grab the officer's gun. Sometimes they don't have much of a choice.

[Abq_Sarah]

132. It's obvious after watching the video

That the guy had some serious problems. Unfortunately, the police didn't have the benefit of watching the video before they entered the bus. The guy was agitated and blocking the driver from exiting the bus. As soon as the first cop came up the stairs, the guy attacked her and actually got her firearm. She's trying to get it back and they both end up on the floor. The other cop comes up, grabs the gun and shoots the guy until he lets go. The police did nothing wrong. They had to respond immediately to a potentially life threatening situation without the benefit of a YouTube video.

[Oneironaut]

11. Executes? Just a nut who tried to steal the officer's gun.

Good shots and good riddance. Those officers caused the situation, though. This could be a training video on how not to screw up and almost get yourself killed.

[Travis_0004]

12. I think the officers could use a bit more training

I wont say its a good shoot, but not a bad shoot either.

Its a good opportunity for everybody in the department to see what went wrong and get some better training.

[larkrake]

114. the male cop had no choice

[AgingAmerican]

13. The guy was wrestling for the cop's gun, but...

why the hell do they always empty their gun into the suspect? He wasn't moving after the first shot.

[Straw Man]

26. We must be watching different videos.

The guy was wrestling for the cop's gun, but...

why the hell do they always empty their gun into the suspect? He wasn't moving after the first shot.

The second cop fired seven shots. That hasn't been "emptying their gun" since service revolvers disappeared in the '80s. Virtually all police sidearms now are semi-automatic pistols holding 15 to 17 rounds.

The suspect most certainly was "moving after the first shot." Watch again: he is still kicking at the second officer's head until the fourth shot, and is still thrashing on shots five and six. That's when he goes limp.

He had been threatening people with the fire extinguisher. When the first officer entered, the driver was still on the bus and still at risk.

I can fault the first officer somewhat for allowing him to grab her pistol: a two-handed "close ready" grip would have denied him that possibility. But in her defense, she was trying to get on the bus as quickly as possible.

Cops are trained to draw their guns when they are going after violent suspects who are endangering the public. That is exactly what was happening here.

[AgingAmerican]

30. He 'only' fired seven rounds?

And kept firing til the guy was 'limp'?

Are you defending the cop? You don't think one shot is enough? Just keep shootin' away til the person is limp? WTF?

[Straw Man]

33. Yes.

He 'only' fired seven rounds?

And kept firing til the guy was 'limp'?

Are you defending the cop? You don't think one shot is enough? Just keep shootin' away til the person is limp? WTF?

Are you under the impression that one shot from a handgun is guaranteed to incapacitate a highly adrenalized person? If so, you are very much mistaken. Remember, he was trying to get control of the other officer's handgun. Had he succeeded, we might be talking about three people dead instead of one.

In this situation, it was absolutely necessary to keep shooting until the assailant was limp. To do any less would have put both officers' lives at risk.

[TipTok]

79. One shot was not enough...

The purpose is to stop the threat.... He still had hands on that female officer...

People don't just freeze when you put a round through them except in very specific spots and even then it usually takes a second unless you get the T-box.

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-marine-explains-why-the-mythical-head-shot-is-so-lethal-2015-8

[MohRokTah]

83. IF a cop has to fire their service weapon, the intent is to kill.

They keep firing until the suspect is dead.

That's why it is called "lethal force".

In this case, Lethal Force was 100% justified.

[AgingAmerican]

84. The supposed intent is to stop the suspect

Not to kill them.

[MohRokTah]

86. LETHAL Force is called that for a reason. eom

[AgingAmerican]

87. That is what it is called afterward

If the suspect dies. Not beforehand.

[MohRokTah]

88. You are wrong.

Use of a service weapon at any time constitutes the use of LETHAL force whether or not the subject expires.

[Straw Man]

89. No, it's always called "lethal force" or "deadly force" ...

... if it has the potential to cause death.

Yes, the intent is to stop the assailant. Sometimes they don't stop until they're dead.

[larkrake]

109. he had his hand on her gun. an accidental fire was a good possibility, the cop

had to stop him. It was deadly the instant she pulled her weapon.

[caraher]

18. I heard about this from the man's niece Saturday

She spoke at a local Black Lives Matter rally. She just posted the following on Facebook (I've redacted identifying information):

Hello all. For those of you who were able to attend the event my name is <snip> and I am one of the volunteers who went up to speak at the open mic. I shared with you all the story of my uncles unjust death committed by the Oklahoma city police department. I thank you all so much for having given me a stage to express my frustrations. Yesterday afternoon the Oklahoma City Police Department released the shooting of my uncle Miguel Chavez. It was hard to bring myself to watch the senseless death of my uncle but I had to understand what caused the officers to think it was okay to kill him. I decided to share this with you all to see for yourselves. Although towards the end my uncle did try to wrestle with the female police officer I cannot find any justification for the fact that, even after the male officer had shot him in the forehead, that they continue to shoot multiple rounds. I can agree that wrestling with a cop is reason enough for the officer to shoot him, but there is absolutely no reason for them to have shot him until the point of death.

I am a senior here at <snip> studying <a science major> and my knowledge on policy and reform isn't very great so I am here to ask for some help. Our family doesn't want to sue the police department and we don't want any money from them either, what we do expect is for the police department to re-evaluate their training and do more to help prevent more innocent lives from being taken. My family is not sure where to start with this fight but we are willing to do whatever it takes to make something happen. If you have any advice you could give I would greatly appreciate it. ‪

Any suggestions I can relay?

[Travis_0004]

64. Dont grab a cops gun.

[mwrguy]

65. One shot is to the point of death.

" is reason enough for the officer to shoot him, but there is absolutely no reason for them to have shot him until the point of death. "

Every round is deadly force. There is no 'shoot to wound'.

[oneshooter]

68. It is "shoot to stop". n/t

[mwrguy]

69. it's all considered deadly foroce

The presumption is that any shot has a very good chance of causing death.

[jmg257]

19. Do not want to get shot? Do not grab a cop's gun.

The guy was trying to bribe the driver to not stop (for police it seems?), and freeing the extinguisher to use as a weapon.

Apparently he pretty much knew he was screwed if the cops stopped them, and for whatever reason he figured he'd rather try to kill them.

[sarisataka]

20. Local report

Police identify man shot and killed during struggle over gun on metro bus

OKLAHOMA CITY (KOKH) — Authorities have identified a man shot and killed by police on-board a metro transit bus.

The Oklahoma City Police Department reports 42-year-old Miguel Angel Chavez-Angles was shot and killed June 24 by an officer.

Police say around 4:30 p.m. June 24 they were called to a vandalism near NW 11 Street and Walker Avenue. A witness told police they saw Chavez-Angles allegedly running from a vandalized vehicle with a large rock in his hand and then getting into another vehicle and forcing the two female occupants to leave the scene.

Oklahoma City Police Department Captain Paco Balderrama said Chavez-Angles then exited the vehicle in the 900 block of NW 23 Street and ran into O'Reilly Auto Parts, locking himself inside.

http://okcfox.com/news/local/police-identify-man-shot-and-killed-during-struggle-over-gun-on-metro-bus

[cigsandcoffee]

21. That cop quite probably saved the lives of his partner and the driver.

...a woman, and a person of color. That headline/thread title, and the scathing racial insinuation that his being Hispanic was a motivation, are very inflammatory.

[brush]

23. Whoa! Look at it from a different perspective. That guy didn't have to die.

Last edited Wed Jul 20, 2016, 01:27 AM - Edit history (2)

Why are we so accepting of death?

They had him trapped on the bus. All they had to do was was get the driver off, as everyone else was already ordered off by the driver.

It was no need to rush in there with guns drawn. Surround the bus so he can't get out of the doors or windows.

What could that hurt? It was obvious the guy wasn't operating with a full deck.

Try talking him down and get the guy some treatment.

It's shouldn't always be about shooting someone when you don't have to. Might save a life.

Hell, that kind of approach might save some cop lives too as some people have started to retaliate against "shoot-first-ask-questions-later cops.

[Straw Man]

28. Let me get this straight.

They had him trapped on the bus. All they had to do was was get the driver off, as everyone else was already ordered off by the driver.

The man was threatening the driver with a weapon. He was already pissed at the driver, and he was obviously violent and irrational. How exactly were the cops supposed to "get the driver off" without confronting the man?

It was no need to rush in there with guns drawn. Surround the bus so he can't get out of the doors or windows.

Explain to me how two cops can "surround" a bus.

Hell, that kind of approach might save some cop lives too as some people have started to retaliate against "shoot-first-ask-questions-later cops.

So ... cops shouldn't shoot people who try to grab their guns because if they do, then somebody might want to shoot them. Does that sound about right?

[brush]

34. What are they, dunces? They can't figure out how to surround a bus? That takes the cake

The guy didn't have to die. He was trapped on the bus.

[Straw Man]

43. The cake.

What are they, dunces? They can't figure out how to surround a bus? That takes the cake

The guy didn't have to die. He was trapped on the bus.

He was on the bus with a weapon (the fire extinguisher) and a potential hostage (the bus driver). He was by no means "trapped." He could have exited the bus at any time, and the cops would have had to confront him then. In the meantime, they would have been leaving him free to harm the driver.

[brush]

50. Ok, we get it. You're all for killing instead of trying to de-escalate.

[Eleanors38]

53. Seems like a clear personal attack you made, brush.

[larkrake]

122. no he didnt

[Eleanors38]

144. Oh. I forgot. The topic is Gunz. All's well.

[Straw Man]

56. No. You're wrong.

Ok, we get it. You're all for killing instead of trying to de-escalate.

I'm for preserving the safety of the public when de-escalation is not a viable option.

[annavictorious]

126. With a hostage.

[uppityperson]

40. Here's a link for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028030026

To answer one of your questions, which I have difficulty believing you are serious about...
"Explain to me how two cops can "surround" a bus. "
1 cop on 1 side, the second on the other. Both watching the man inside and moving front/back as he does.

[Straw Man]

44. Thank you.

Interesting link. Some of the steps are sensible and others are pure bullshit, like "Shoot for limbs." That kind of thing is advocated as political cover and has no relevance to the reality of violent incidents.

To answer one of your questions, which I have difficulty believing you are serious about...
"Explain to me how two cops can "surround" a bus. "
1 cop on 1 side, the second on the other. Both watching the man inside and moving front/back as he does.

We obviously have different definitions of the word surround. They would have been able to watch him, but unable to prevent him from leaving the bus. At best it would have been a footrace when he exited the bus.

[brush]

54. City buses have both doors on the same side.

Very easy for two cops to monitor the doors.

The situation could've been deescalated.

[Straw Man]

58. City buses also have emergency exits and many windows.

Very easy for two cops to monitor the doors.

While the man climbed out the other side? Or remained inside and assaulted the driver? Sure, that would have been productive.

The first officer didn't go in there with the intention of killing him. She didn't fire at him when he first lunged. He was the one who pressed the fight.

The situation could've been deescalated.

Or he could have bashed the driver's head in with the fire extinguisher. How would we be judging the cop's choices then?

[brush]

59. Come on, we saw the video. That driver was much bigger and was not . . .

going to let that little guy bash him in the head.

Just admit. You refuse to admit the situation could have been deescalated without killing the guy.

I disagreed.

[Straw Man]

62. Doubling down on wrong?

Come on, we saw the video. That driver was much bigger and was not . . .

going to let that little guy bash him in the head.

So the job description for bus drivers now includes hand-to-hand combat with crazed passengers? I think their union might have something to say about that. In any case, the crazed man had a weapon: the fire extinguisher.

Just admit. You refuse to admit the situation could have been deescalated without killing the guy.

I disagreed.

Let's get something clear before you spout any more hyperbolic calumnies, OK? The choice wasn't to kill; it was to draw the gun. The cop made a split-second decision that something had to be done immediately and forcefully. She attempted to apprehend a man who was acting out violently. He took it to the next level by assaulting her and attempting to grab her gun. At that point, it was beyond de-escalation.

[brush]

66. I disagree. Situation could have been deescalated without a killing.

[Straw Man]

72. After the gun was grabbed? No.

Disagree all you want. That's your right.

[brush]

73. My whole point was the guns didn't even have to be out

Why was the first move to go in with guns drawn?

Too many cops can't seem to get the whole deescalation concept — see the Baton Rouge and Minnesosta killing, just to name two other recent situations where a man ends up dead unnecessarily.

[Straw Man]

74. And again, you're wrong.

My whole point was the guns didn't even have to be out

Why was the first move to go in with guns drawn?

Because the man had indicated the intention to commit assault with a deadly weapon. And in case you're wondering, yes, the fire extinguisher can be considered a deadly weapon.

Too many cops can't seem to get the whole deescalation concept — see the Baton Rouge and Minnesosta killing, just to name two other recent situations where a man ends up dead unnecessarily.

This one isn't even remotely similar to those two. In the Baton Rouge case, the suspect was already restrained. In the Minnesota killing, the suspect was offering no resistance whatsoever. In this incident, the man was a very active threat to the public.

[brush]

90. And I think you're wrong

Another poster send you a list of how cops in another, no so gun-hppy county assess and handle situations. Drawing and shooting a gun are way down on the list.

They are not the first thing to do.

We've become to accepting of cops shooting and killing people.

There are nowhere near the number of police shooting/killings in other countries,

We need aspire to what others have achieved in policing.

[Straw Man]

99. You're entitled to your opinion.

The bus driver was in imminent danger. If I were the bus driver, I would be thankful that the female police officer did what she did.

The man attacked her as soon as she entered the bus. Are you claiming that he would not have done so if she had not had her gun drawn? In her place, would you be willing to bet your life on it?

She showed remarkable restraint in not shooting him as soon as he lunged at her.

[brush]

100. Maybe try asking the bus driver to get off, then question him as to . . .

whether the man has a gun. The driver had already gotten everyone else off the bus.

Just use a little patience to access the situation and figure out the best way to get the situation under control. There were two cops, back up was arriving, IMO, there was no need to rush in once the driver was off the bus.

Then proceed from there with the guy trapped on the bus.

Rushing in with guns drawn, you must admit, didn't turn out well.

Now you've got two traumatized cops, one who repeatedly shot and killed a suspect, the other thinking that she failed in the situation.

With a wholesale new approach to training, death could have been avoided there.

[oneshooter]

104. Then you should offer your services, without fee or charge,

to train these officers. And show them the error of thier ways. Of course this would include actually facing a armed felon and talking him into surrendering, just to prove your ideas work.

[brush]

113. Guess you didn't watch the video. There was no armed suspect.

There was a guy not operating on all cylinders trapped on a bus.

Not at all what your snark described.

But even if it were an armed suspect, wouldn't it be wise to take the time to access the situation, gain as much info as possible while waiting for back up, then decide if with going in with guns at the ready is the only course of action?

If the Cleveland cop had done that in the Tamir Rice case, he would have found that it was a 12-year-old boy playing in the park with a toy gun. He didn't, He went in with guns blazing and killed an innocent kid playing in the park, where kids should be playing.

I'm no trainer but even Stevie Wonder can see a wholesale new way of training is needed to for cops to learn how to deescalate situations instead of escalating them.

We've seen too often how going in with guns blazing can be reckless, but in this day and age of cell phone videos, bad decisions by cops get plastered all over the airwaves and the internet, resulting in bad PR for cops all over the country, and unfortunately, recent turn of events show retaliation towards cops is starting to happen. People aren't going to keep getting killed without some blowback happening.

[oneshooter]

115. By law when he picked up the fire extinguisher and threatened the officer

with it, he was armed.

[Straw Man]

116. What makes you think they could have done that ...

... without the man attacking the bus driver? And how were they supposed to know that the man wasn't assaulting other bus passengers while they stood around having a conversation with the driver?

Armchair quarterbacking is easy. Sometimes there is no good option.

[brush]

125. Did you watch the video? Who's talking about a conversation with the driver?

Command him off the bus and then question him. Sheesh! Guess cops aren't the only ones who don't seem to think. That should have been the first order of business, get the driver out of harms way.

And btw, the driver had already emptied the bus of passengers.

Can't believe how many people here on a progressive board seem to be against deescalation of situations involving people of color.

How about this video? Another cop who escalates a situation instead of deescalating.

This crap happens much, much too often. A wholesale new way of thinking and training cops is desperately needed.

http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/local/violent-arrest-of-teacher-caught-on-video-officers/nr3W6/

[Straw Man]

133. You are.

Get the driver off the bus and then question him about who else is left on the bus. That's what you said.

While a man who has already committed a carjacking (that's what he was running from) is on board with a deadly weapon and doing who knows what? No, that would not have been the appropriate response.

[brush]

134. Sorry, rushing onto that bus with her gun out was the dumbest thing . . .

for that cop to do.

The guy was stronger than her. She's got to use her head to get control of the situation. Rushing in with her gun out was not it.

[Straw Man]

135. And what is the depth of experience from which you speak?

Does it extend beyond the armchair?

The guy was stronger than her.

That's what the gun is for.

She's got to use her head to get control of the situation. Rushing in with her gun out was not it.

That's the protocol for apprehending an armed suspect who has just committed a violent felony.

Her big mistake was in not controlling her gun well enough. She should have had a better grip on it, and she should have shot him as soon as he charged her. Then he might have broken off his attack and lived.

[brush]

136. I'll ask you the same thing. What's the depth of yours?

[Straw Man]

137. Is that an answer?

I have several current or retired police officers in my circle of friends. I have had numerous discussions with them about their training and about the difficulty of making snap judgements in the field. Additionally, I have done several self-defense classes that incorporate "shoot/no shoot" exercises, both on simulators and on a live-fire range, as well as weapon-retention exercises, i.e. how to keep control of your gun when somebody is trying to take it away from you.

Your turn.

[brush]

138. Ok, with all the killings of people of color that are now evident because of the proliferation . . .

of videos out there now (cellphone, dash cam and security cams) we can all see, even though us African Americans have know these killing have been going on for decades undetected, that wholesale changes in training are needed in police forces.

There has to be a sea change in the mentality away from people of color being taught as "the bad guys", the enemy. Protect and serve has to come back and really be what cops are about. Now they are little more than occupation forces in communities of color.

Weed out the sociopaths, the steroid abusers, the violence prone officers, the ones not fit to hold a badge and gun (see the Tamir Rice killer), introduce and stress deescalation tactics to eliminate the shootings like in Baton Rouge, Minnesota, Charleston and on and on and on and on.

It can be done. It will require determination and will from the top brass to make the change but it's glaringly obvious that the bad cops and unjustified killings from poorly trained cops need to be gone.

[Straw Man]

139. I asked you about experience.

Your answer is "I've seen some videos"?

[brush]

140. And you have some friends who are cops

I have relatives who are cops but I don't list that as any credential of mine.

Get to the heart of the matter.

What's you opinion on the need for wholesale training changes and the need to weed out bad cops?

The videos are out there so there's no more denying changes are needed.

[Straw Man]

141. And I've heard their personal experiences.

And I've done training that has taught me how difficult it is to make quick decisions under stress. All you've done is armchair-quarterback some videos, with the preconception that cops are always to blame.

I'm all for increasing training and weeding out bad cops. So are my friends who are or have been police officers. That doesn't change my opinion that in the instance we are discussing, the cops acted appropriately for the situation.

[TipTok]

80. It's not anybody's job... let alone a bus driver...

To fight someone off who has a big piece of metal as a weapon.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[kacekwl]

96. Coulda , Shoulda is b.s..

When police responded people where still getting off the bus. Were there more passengers on board ? Did he have a gun or weapon ? So many more questions with no answers and things happen so quickly . When attacked the goal is to eliminate the threat to themselves and others around. A little sloppy letting him grab her gun though .

[MyNameGoesHere]

142. Explain to me how two cops can "surround" a bus

It appears no one can. Don't worry even a dunce like me figured that one out rather quickly, perhaps you don't ride public busses?

[Angel Martin]

25. hard to argue against this shooting

the first officer's gun went off when he grabbed for it and she later lost her pistol. Fortunately her partner came up with it.

I was going to say maybe there were training issues here about getting into grappling distance. But I think the police wanted to move him back further into the bus so the driver could get out. So the first officer came into the bus aggressively trying to move the suspect back, instead he grabbed for the gun.

If you want to use this as an example of an "unjustified" police shooting, you've got a tough row to hoe, buddy.

[PdxSean]

27. A tragedy from every angle.

Everything this guy did and said in the video suggests he had a mental problem. Unfortunately, the cops didn't know that.

Since the guy had already dropped the extinguisher and had no weapon, I don't understand why the cop drew her gun. At that point the guy understandably freaked out and, likely assuming she was going to shoot him, he went for her gun.

Once the struggle for the gun began, the second cop appeared to have little choice.

This was a tragedy from every angle.

[Straw Man]

29. Watch again.

Since the guy had already dropped the extinguisher and had no weapon, I don't understand why the cop drew her gun. At that point the guy understandably freaked out and, likely assuming she was going to shoot him, he went for her gun.

He put down the extinguisher and went to the door. When he saw the female cop, he actually ran back in and picked up the extinguisher again. Then he dropped it in order to make a two-handed grab for her gun.

Actually, she showed restraint -- too much restraint. When he lunges for the gun, she pulls back and tries to block him with her left arm. She could have easily shot him instead -- at that point the gun was pointed directly at him -- but her first instinct was not to shoot.

[PdxSean]

48. I watched it again.

As I said, he had nothing in his hands when she pulled her gun. Edited to add: She drew her gun the moment he refused to get off the bus. "Justifying" the shooting AFTER he goes for her gun is a no-brainer.

[Straw Man]

49. OK.

She "pulled her gun" when she was outside the bus. She had no idea what he had in his hands at that moment. All she knew was that she was facing a violent, irrational bus hijacker who may or may not be armed.

[MohRokTah]

85. Yep, the first cop hesitated when he lunged.

Situation could have ended right then had she fired.

[avebury]

35. I don't think that male police officer had much of a choice.

The female office was stupid and charged onto the bus putting herself and the bus driver in danger. She is lucky that she didn't get the bus driver killed. The police woman should lose her job. If she had gotten the driver to get out of the bus (with the keys) the guy would have been contained and they could have worked on getting him out alive.

[Lee-Lee]

36. That's easy to Monday morning QB after the fact

She likely didn't know for sure if anyone was still on the bus and in danger or if he was up to something else inside the bus:

Absent that information and not sure if anyone else inside the bus was in danger her correct response was to go in and see and try to apprehend him.

I swear some people in here will twist anything and everything a cop does to be bad, no matter what. Had she stayed off and he hurt the driver or hurt himself the same people would be screaming how she should have gone in and stopped him.

I think everyone in this country needs to be give a badge and gun and sent out for a week to get some real world experience into just how fluid these situations are and how tough it is to make decisions on the fly. It's far easier to sit there in the comfort of you home watching video, knowing yeh outcome and pretend the officer on the ground should have known by magic every detail from the video angle and known how it will end like you do- and know that as soon as they get there.

Part of bridging the divide between LE and the community lies with the police- but a part lies with the community too. If your the kind of person so irrational or blind with hate that you will twist anything LE does to be bad you need to step back and get a grip on reality. If you are the kind of person calling cops using deadly force when a person ATTACKS A COP TRIES TO TAKE THIER GUN an "execution" the you are a HUGE part of the problem and idiotic claims like that do nothing more than stir the divide and fan the flames of hatred making the problem worse. And a part of me wonder if some people making such absurd statements don't know exactly what they are doing and just want to stir hatred...

[avebury]

37. Had she ordered the bus driver off of the bus

she would have known that there was no one left on the bus but the other guy. She rushed in prematurely.

Not all police officers act rationally and when their actions result in either their death or the death of an innocent bystander, that death is then often charged against a defendant. Years ago there was a situation where some guy evaded a cop one night. I don't remember what the original allegation was but I don't think that it was anything was put the public in any grave danger. Another night the cop saw the guy and initiated an extremely high speed pursuit late in the evening. As the cop approached the area of Penn Square Mall there was another person approaching the intersection from the other road. In order to keep from taking out an innocent civilian the cop drove into a tree (I believe) and was killed. The guy he was chasing got away and was later charged in the death of the cop.

The cop exhibited extremely poor judgement in initiating a high speed pursuit under conditions that endangered the public. I persoally believe that he was pissed off that the guy had evaded him before and by golly gee whiz the guy was not going to get away a second time. His extreme negligence cost him his life. Had I been on the jury of hte murder trial I would have had a hard time voting guilty. I have a problem with charging someone else on a murder complaint when the dead person's poor judgement and total lack of common sense resulted in his own death.

[DrDan]

47. how would she know there were not others still on the bus - sure, some left

but she could not be sure all had.

[Jim Beard]

76. Your Statement

" I don't remember what the original allegation was but I don't think that it was anything was put the public in any grave danger."

There was a danger. It is mentioned in one of the links why the police were called. The victim was acting very erratic and was trying to get into occupied cars. The last call to the police stated he was trying to use a rock to break into another car forcing two women to leave the car.

[avebury]

91. She should have noticed that the only

people on the bus were the bus driver and the crazy guy. Had she gotten the driver out (with the keys), the crazy gun would have been contained and unable to drive the bus away. At that point she (and her partner) would have had time to deal with the crazy guy, hopefully taking him into custody alive, It is called thinking before you act.

[oneshooter]

39. Many people on this board need to run through a course of

"shoot/no shoot? training. Perhaps they could learn a thing or two.

[kacekwl]

97. Agreed , I took one and was very enlightened.

This is a hard job and those who do it deserve respect . Sure there are idiots and incompetence in their profession as we have sadly seen but you can't fault the majority.

[oneshooter]

103. There seems to be a vocal minority that believes

that one bad apple ruins the whole barrel.

[Captain Stern]

38. Execution? Hardly.

There are plenty of cases out there where the cops do the wrong thing. Saying this case is like those cases tarnishes the severity of the actual incidents where the police pretty much actually do execute innocent people.

[grossproffit]

41. Question: What do you think this man was going to do with the gun once he had it?

[Demonaut]

42. and if had got the gun?

[DrDan]

45. "executes"???? really?

Looked to me like he went for the gun - after creating chaos on the bus.

Hard for me to fault the cops.

[annavictorious]

127. I agree.

And while it is interesting that the the man who was shot is Hispanic, his ethnicity had nothing to do with the shooting.

[LongtimeAZDem]

52. Using the term "executes" for this situation may well constitute libel. (nt)

[Eleanors38]

55. Going for an officer's gun is likely lead to self-defense in extremis. It did.

[Vattel]

57. No one was executed. You should edit the title of your post.

That sort of exaggeration just increases tensions between police and the public.

[Calista241]

60. This was a "good shoot" and not an execution.

If you are in a brawl with a cop and try to steal their firearm, bad shit is going to happen to you. I'm sorry the guy died, but trying to steal a cops gun while other cops are there and ready to assist their compatriot, is a 100% losing situation.

And i wouldn't seriously question the 7 shots either. It's easy for us armchair viewers to get up on our high horses and say this or that about the encounter. But that cop was there, and they were fighting for their lives.

[okieinpain]

61. you can't fault the cop for that one. n/t.

[larkrake]

111. yeh, I do. she should have told the driver to get off, then she and her partner scope the situation

before entering. She didn't think.

[Straw Man]

118. Not knowing what an erratic, violent man was doing inside ...

... while they waited outside? No.

[larkrake]

121. violent? he didnt touch anyone until she drew on him

[Straw Man]

123. I suppose he grabbed the fire extinguisher ...

... to put out a fire, then?

[larkrake]

124. No, he didnt use it, he was amped for sure

[okieinpain]

119. True, lady cop did screw up. N/t.

[clarice]

63. Executes??!!! what an inappropriate description. nt

[tritsofme]

67. Bullshit inflammatory headline.

[romanic]

71. It's easy to say "negotiate" when you're not in the cop's position.

But in reality, you only have mere seconds to make a decision in regards to your own safety. The cop did what he had to do to save everyone.

[KMOD]

75. Welcome to DU

You are not fooling anyone.

[RandySF]

77. The officer should have used kung fu just like in the movies.

[Dr. Strange]

120. That's cultural appropriation.

[mr_liberal]

81. Similar to Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin cases. nm

[Orrex]

93. Yes, except totally different in every way

[Demonaut]

95. only similarity is someone is dead, he brought it on himself when he grabbed her gun

[mr_liberal]

98. They all did

[MohRokTah]

82. Cops did the right thing.

The cop that shot him is a hero. He saved his partner's life.

[Skeeter Barnes]

92. Not an execution. The first cop was too close to draw down on the bad guy with one hand.

She should have had both hands on the gun as soon as it cleared the holster and held it closer to her body. It's easy to say that though. Not so easy to remember in the middle of a violent struggle at close range. She shouldn't be fired though.

As for the so called execution, if you try to take a cop's gun, you die. Simple as that. Too fucking bad for him that he made stupid decisions and got violent.

[geek_sabre]

94. Watch the light.

At some point during the struggle over the first officer's gun, the accessory light is turned on. Basically, where the light is pointing is where the bullet will go (if the trigger is pulled). Long before they were on the ground the man had control over the gun. After the first 3-4 shots, though the man is down, the gun is still in his hand and moving. You can see that the light is still moving and pointed at the second officer, which is likely why he quickly fired off the last three shots.

While the man was unarmed while standing in the door, he wasn't trying to leave the bus, and as soon as she drew her gun, he grabbed the fire extinguisher again (presumably not for its intended purposes, but to potentially swing/throw at the officer), and once he saw that he had an opportunity to grab the gun, he dropped it and went for it.

From my view, the first officer made a mistake with how she held the gun when she entered the bus. It was too far from her body, and she didn't use both hands, which made it possible for the man to wrestle it from her. If her intent was just to kill the guy, she could (should) have easily shot him as soon as he lunged toward her. But her instinct was to avoid it, as she pulled back immediately. Unfortunately, her decision put the driver in danger, as he was very close to having been shot in the initial struggle. However, given the situation he encountered, everything the second officer did was justified. I will expect there to be more training about these situations moving forward. Perhaps the first officer should ride a desk for a year or two, and get some additional training. The second officer saved the driver and his stupid partner's life.

[larkrake]

101. she should not have pulled her gun right off the bat. Where are the tazers?

Poor driver could have been shot. The guy was amped and perhaps mental. Talking was called for until the driver was clear

[WillowTree]

106. How was she supposed to get close enough to him to taze?

[GummyBearz]

107. Taser guns have a range of 15-25 ft. If she was close enough he could grab her pistol...

Then she was close enough to have shot him with a taser. At the same time, if she pulled a taser and he grabbed that, he just got a non-lethal weapon instead of a lethal one.

[larkrake]

108. on a bus, thats easy

[annavictorious]

130. My son is NYPD

Cops here are not issued tazers.

[Lil Missy]

102. Looks like a justified shoot? "Execution" hardly describes this.

[Jim Beard]

105. There is one thing we must do is make or complaints credible.

Defending this will will lose support for the cause faster than anything.

[annavictorious]

128. Lots of folks who here are making suggestions for de-escalation

are watching the video more than once, looking for a window or opportunity for a less violent resolution.

These cops didn't have that luxury.

[doc03]

129. If someone has a gun and you shoot you shoot to kill there are no

negotiations. The cop saved his partners life and maybe his own.

[aikoaiko]

131. This incident falls into the "reckless escalation" category.

I no longer abide needless and reckless escalation by police in police-civilian interactions.

Unless we are not seeing something in the video, the first officer drew her weapon and charged him while not seeing a reason to shoot him. Or maybe she was prepared to shoot him. Either way, drawing her firearm escalated the situation.

Once they were in a struggle where it was a very possible for the agitated man to control the gun I don't blame the second officer for firing until he was sure the man was not a threat.

Far too often police escalate the situation which leads to their use of lethal force.

[Orrex]

143. Shoot the hostage. Take him out of the equation.

Alternatively, the cops could have shot each other and thereby made the gunman collapse with remorse over what he'd wrought.