The latest issue at Civic Center (Renamed Freedom Plaza by Occupiers) is the flag

[nadinbrzezinski]

Well the latest issue at Civic Center Plaza (Freedom Plaza per Occupiers,) goes around the Flag. Why? Well the city says the pole is too thick... per a muni code going back to 1979. That is the legal excuse. This goes into the dynamic between protesters and governments, and it is not language specific. It is part of the arc. The government does not want to surrender it's symbols to those it considers to be rebels or not from an approved protest group. This is why Tea Party Members were allowed to carry weapons in public, it does not matter if they were loaded or not... you are not really considered a threat, I don't care that on your back is an AR-15.

The Occupiers are a whole different matter. They are perceived as a threat to the status quo. (In reality they are). So the current issue is about making them the other. Of course the other are un-American. We cannot have a flag with un-American people. It could be any group that is perceived as a threat by an established governmental structure around the world. But this is why we are seeing this. It is simple, and once one understands this, well it is easier to react to it.

By the way, I am including a photo of the flag in question...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. I see they are up to their tricks again. However, OCCUPY will simply get stronger. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Oh they do not stop

problem they are having, and this is unique to the last five years... is facebook, du... other social media... and pesky cameras.

[booley]

3. Good point about threat to the status quo

Thats what the irony of tea baggers bragging about how they never got arrested.

Basically what the Tea Party, that believed the government was corrupt, taking away rights and increasingly totalitarian, is doing is bragging that the corrupt totalitarian government had no problem with them.

What does that say about the tea party?

Meanwhile the 99%ers, who think the government is corrupt, taking away rights and increasingly totalitarian, gets treated just the way one would expect a corrupt, increasingly totalitarian government that is taking away rights to treat them. It's not as if we don't have too numerous examples to draw upon for comparison.

I mentioned this to various tea baggers who had bragged about there being no (to my knowledge) tea party arrests. They never did give me a satisfactory answer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Well the T Parties were working well withing the structure

and advancing the goals of the elite. This is not something that makes them comfy... and will deny to their last breath. But true revolutionaries... face true repression.

It is just radicalizing them though.

[randome]

5. When states or political celebrities want to fly the Confederate flag, they usually get shot down.

And I don't recall the Tea Party trying to erect flags on public plazas so I'm not sure it's fair to characterize this as 'Occupy'-specific.

That being said, I'm sure they ARE using legal details to put some pressure on the group. If they were involved in an active protest, it would be a different matter.

[aquart]

6. Uh...you are comparing the slavery and death of thousands by civil war flag to Old Glory?

Are you fucking kidding me?

[randome]

7. No, I was talking about flags.

Nothing more.

[lunatica]

8. What does your argument have to do with the American Flag being erected?

The American Flag is in all State and Federal sights. And Teabaggers wear their flags everywhere they go. This guy has got to be violating some ordinance somewhere!

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. In fact, he is violating the San Diego Muni code in question

[randome]

11. I'm not making any kind of argument, just pointing something out.

As for violating some local ordinance, I guess it depends on the locality and on the willingness of officials to enforce. Obviously they are willing to enforce an archaic ordinance in this case.

If TeaBaggers took up residence in a public plaza, I bet the same result would apply.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. I bet it would not

after all Tea Baggers were totting actual weapons, as in firearms, as in semi automatic firearms, and had real clear threats, such as this time we came unarmed.

But since they were still working for the elites... nope, they would not.

This is the part of the dynamic that you are purposely missing. By the way, it is independent of country or language.

But in my mind having a bunch of guys running around like this.



Same plaza in fact... is far more of a real threat.

[randome]

15. I agree that Teabaggers are more of a threat.

They scare me, too! But I doubt there is an ordinance against carrying weapons in public in Civic Plaza, archaic or not.

But what's the big deal? Have someone get a different pole for the flag or ignore what the officials say. It's all the same to me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Not worth it... as far as I am concerned

from YOUR POSTS... the T Parties can do whatever, and the OWSers need to go away... that's it.

[randome]

31. I was in the midst of replying to your post when you deleted it.

So go ahead and think what you want about me. I can't help that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I get it, if it is the tea party

or PRIVATE corporations, or the state, it is fine. As soon as these guys do it... nope.

I got that with your issues over the arrest of Ray Lutz.

We get it by now. It would not matter what the Occupiers do, save going away, you are going to find fault with them and NEVER, EVER dig deeper.

[randome]

12. I didn't say it was fine, by any stretch of my words.

I'm saying that taking up residence in a public plaza is different from engaging in an active protest. And it's no small wonder that officials would find some way to make the residence go away, or at least to inconvenience them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Nah you said he was violating private property

not realizing that registering voters in PRIVATE PROPERTY is allowed under California law, as long as it is public.

You prefer these people simply go away. We get it, we understand this. Well here is a free hint for you, they are not. Come better weather in fact, you are going to get conniptions over them. I guarantee it. The social and economic pressures that have brought this to be ain't changing any time soon.

As to public officials making the INCONVENIENT groups go away... San Diego has a LONG history. Read on the ironic 100 year anniversary of the San Diego Free Speech Movement.

[randome]

16. I don't do 'conniptions'.

I don't want OWS to go away. I want them to actively protest.

And you have to realize that there are limitations regarding registering voters on private property. If there weren't, then anyone could walk into a store and set up a table. But they don't because there are ordinances against that kind of thing.

I'm not saying who was right or wrong in that specific case, I'm just saying that there is likely more to the story than simply TPTB being afraid of one guy registering voters.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. What part of he was OUTSIDE in the PLAZA are you missing?

WHICH IS WELL WITHIN ACCEPTED LEGAL STANDARDS PER CALIFORNIA SUPREME COURT. This is why they set up tables OUTSIDE TARGET and there is little TARGET can do, regardless of INTERNAL POLICY.

And no, you do not want them to protest, you want them to go away. That is the way your posts have pointed from DAY ONE.

And yes there is more to the story... orders from pretty high up... read Mayor's office, to harass them in any way, shape or form. There is more, this city has a history of going after anything half way perceived as left... as in a LONG HISTORY of doing that.

[randome]

18. So what happened in this case?

Any follow-ups? Was the guy fined? Was he successful in refuting the charge?

He wasn't even part of OWS at the time. I'm sure people register voters all the time in California. Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe voters are registered telepathically?

I do NOT want OWS to go away. I want them to get better organized. Recently, judging from your other posts, it seems like this is finally occurring.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Well mull on this... no charges

mull further on this... our of 115 arrests so far, there have been 20 or so charged.

Gets worst, the ONLY Occupier who went to actual trial, the jury was hung... that was their STRONGEST case.

The city has at times charged them with RESISTING ARREST and ONLY RESISTING ARREST. Per California POST standards that charge requires a PRIMARY CHARGE, and it cannot be the ONY charge. There is more, the cops ARRESTED somebody for JAYWALKING, which is a misdemeanor and a TICKET, not a you go to jail offense, unless you refuse to sign that ticket that is. This choice was never given.

Yup, they are going to get sued for violations from here to Sunday, and lose in FEDERAL court.

And yes, you want them to go away... that is the way it reads. Not just me who is getting that IMPRESSION. Sorry... but that is the IMPRESSION you exude in EVERY FRACKING POST.

[JDPriestly]

21. Are you equating flying a Confederate flag with flying an American flag?

Do you understand what it is about the Confederate flag that is objectionable?

It is the symbol of bloody rebellion, of 618,000 American lives sacrificed so that Southern Whites could continue to humiliate and own human beings as slaves.

Do you understand what it is about the American flag that is objectionable?

Nothing? Right. Nothing.

In fact, the American flag is a symbol for freedom and equality and democracy.

So why would the city want the Occupiers to take down the American flag?

Is the city ashamed of the fact that the Occupiers represent freedom and equality and democracy better than the city does?

[randome]

22. Don't put words in my mouth.

I never said I want anyone to take down the American flag. I'm saying it's understandable that the authorities want to inconvenience the people who have taken up residence at the Plaza.

It would be a different matter if they were involved in an active protest.

And I was only talking about flags, not trying to support the idea of slavery, for Christ's sake.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. My god, residence IS AN ACTIVE PROTEST.

That is what you cannot wrap your head around...

[randome]

25. You're entirely correct.

I don't equate the two at all.

And you know I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Look, I'm really not spoiling for a fight here. I just wanted to play devil's advocate and point out that it's understandable why the authorities would want to keep the plaza clear, same as scores of mayors felt they had to do with public parks.

If we disagree on this, well, then we disagree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. You might not want to understand this

but this is an active part of the protest.

As to mayors and all, read the OP... serious. If these were RIGHT WING, I am willing to bet, given US History... they'd not be cleared. Specific to San Diego... not at all...

[JDPriestly]

33. They are involved in an active protest.

If they weren't involved in an active protest, no one would bother them.

Southern California is full of homeless people sleeping wherever they can.

[unblock]

20. i'll bet you $10,000 that the "muni code" refers to how to display flags owned by the municipality.

yes, the "bet" was just a snark.

but while i can see a municipal code describing how the municipality should display flags, i can't see a municipal code regulating how private citizens can display flags.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Actually it has to do with the flag pole

Any demonstration cannot have signs held that are over 1\4 of an inch. It is... to put it mildly, rarely enforced.

[unblock]

26. unless there's more to it, there seems no governmental interest that beyond speech restriction

i mean, even if the flag pole were made of styrofoam and couldn't possibly work as a weapon?

where's the governmental interest in preventing 5/8" supports for flags or signs in any context?

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. No serous, that is the Muni code...

and I am even more serious, it is rarely enforced. This is actually a micro issue in the rarely enforced universe of codes that suddenly they are enforcing.

With one of them they are even violating a Federal Judge order.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Meta level... here is what is going on in Israel... (since our media will NOT cover it)

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=250911

Notice the newspaper this is in... The Jerusalem Post IS a murdoch paper....

Why this is significant? Well we are seeing the same process here.

Enjoy.