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[guillaumeb]

This message was self-deleted by its author (guillaumeb) on Fri Oct 13, 2017, 07:15 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[yeoman6987]

1. At the time the world was happy the war was over

I am sure that is one of many reasons charges were not brought. Remember we were begged to join the war. We never wanted to get involved but we were guilted into it.

[CBGLuthier]

4. How about the unnecessary horror and atrocities the fucking Japanese committed in the Philippines?

and just about every where else they conquered.

[Travis_0004]

80. Would it have veen better if they died with conventional bombs?

What if 300k died invading japan, would that have been better?

[Warpy]

34. Guilted? Wrong war. We were shoved into WWII by the attack on Pearl Harbor

Even the Japanese were relieved when the war was over, only the generals pushing for a fight to the death. Everybody else was sick of doing the dying for them.

The second bomb did the trick, making the Emperor wonder how many of those things we had, and a week later he overruled the generals and surrendered.

Personally, I think any attack on civilians is a war crime, but that's how wars have been fought ever since the concept was invented, from burning the homes and fields of serfs to siege warfare to carpet bombing and now nuclear bombs. At least we've learned enough about the horrors of the latter to keep them from being used in warfare for 70 years. That's getting very shaky, though.

Also don't forget that conventional bombing had killed 333,000 civilians and injured 473,000 in Japan, the usual figure cited.

If you are concerned by atrocity against civilians, it's time to start thinking about electing the people who are most motivated to keep this country out of wars unless we are being invaded. It's the way to cut the military budget, fatten the treasury, and make sure we can have nice things like basic health insurance, subsidized child care, subsidized higher education, and a strong national pension system, none of which we can afford because the military gobbles up so much of our taxes.

[CBGLuthier]

3. Bahh, the fire bombing of Tokyo was a war crime too.

Would you have preferred a few hundred thousand dead american soldiers? They fucking started it. The Japanese have no one to blame but their leaders who sold them on being a master race that would rule the world.

[Major Nikon]

13. There were also prominent figures inside and outside the military who said it was necessary

It's also pure speculation to say that Japan would have unconditionally surrendered without the bombings.

[Major Nikon]

18. Your point is still speculation

You seem to be making a point that claiming the bombings were necessary is speculative while ignoring the opposite claim is also speculative.

[Major Nikon]

57. You are going even farther down the road of speculation

The targeting of cities had been a feature of warfare ever since man was able to create fire. During the Civil War the US targeted its own cities and its own people with artillery. So the idea that the Japanese had to be dehumanized in order to justify total war just isn't a very good one. The decision wasn't up to the American people. Ultimately it was up to one man who had to live with the consequences of that decision while weighing the unknowns.

[SwankyXomb]

69. The same Halsey that made this quote?

"Before we're through with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in hell."

[Major Nikon]

15. Neither was a war crime

Just because something is horrific, doesn't make it a war crime. There were no domestic or international laws regarding aerial bombardment during WWII. As such nobody was prosecuted for any of it on either side.

The Law of Air Warfare
30-06-1998 Article, International Review of the Red Cross, No. 323, by Javier Guisández Gómez

...

In examining these events in the light of international humanitarian law, it should be borne in mind that during the Second World War there was no agreement, treaty, convention or any other instrument governing the protection of the civilian population or civilian property, as the Conventions then in force dealt only with the protection of the wounded and the sick on the battlefield and in naval warfare, hospital ships, the laws and customs of war and the protection of prisoners of war.

https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/article/other/57jpcl.htm

[tonyt53]

58. Thank you for pointing that out.

[EX500rider]

5. 2 scenarios:

Last edited Sat Aug 6, 2016, 04:49 PM - Edit history (1)

A:
The US invades the mainland of Japan and in the preparatory shore bombardment and during the actual invasion several MILLION Japanese are killed. Also a million US troops are killed or wounded.

B:
The US drops the A-bomb, kill's 10% or less of the other scenario and the Japanese surrender. No US casualties.

You like A better?

And no, the Japanese were not "about to surrender", they could have done that at any time in the preceding years.

[EX500rider]

20. They had not surrendered at the time of the bombing so Nimitz is incorrect.

It's not hard to do, you order your troops to lay down their arms and announce the surrender over the radio.

[EX500rider]

28. Yes they showed how much they wanted to surrender in the previous battle of Okinawa...

250,000 US troops with 20,195 KIA, 55,162 WIA and 26,000 psychiatric cases, or 101,357 US casualties out of 250,000.

77,000 Japanese troops and 20,000 Okinawan conscripts with KIA est over 77,00, with civilian casualties KIA at 40,000 to 150,000 out of 300,000 civilians.

None of that boded well for the upcoming invasion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

On top of that:


Tekketsu Kinnotai
Tekketsu Kinnotai
The Japanese Imperial Army mobilized 1,780 middle school boys aged 14–17 years into front-line-service. They were named "Tekketsu Kinnotai" (ja:鉄血勤皇隊, Iron and Blood Imperial Corps). This mobilization was conducted by the ordinance of the Ministry of Army, not by law. The ordinances mobilized the student for a volunteer soldier for form's sake. However, in reality, the military authorities ordered schools to force almost all students to "volunteer" for soldiers. Sometimes they counterfeited the necessary documents of students. And about half of "Tekketsu Kinnotai" were killed such as in suicide attacks against a tank with bombs and in guerrilla operations.
After losing in the Battle of Okinawa in June 1945, the Japanese government enacted new laws in preparation for the decisive battles in the main lands. They were the laws that made it possible boys aged 15 or older and girls aged 17 or older to be drafted into front-line-service.

[sofa king]

83. There are hard numbers and facts to go with that speculation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

The Americans manufactured half a million Purple Heart medals in anticipation of the invasion of Japan. They might have run out. For their own part, the Japanese intended to sacrifice the entire civilian population of Kyushu, 2 million people. Kyushu was just the preliminary needed to allow for the invasion of Honshu.

The Japanese did want to discuss surrender, but they were trying to bargain against the Potsdam Declaration. Specifically, they wanted to disarm themselves, prosecute their own war criminals, and not be occupied, somewhat similar to the armistice the Germans negotiated to everyone's loss in 1918. That would never have flown with the Allies, and in fact it didn't.

Note that the one person who decided to end the war, Emperor Hirohito, considered the atomic bomb to be the decisive military factor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

The calculus of total warfare is horrifying and war itself is a negative-gain scenario where one has to balance death against life. In such situations, one will always wager deaths on the other side against the lives potentially saved on one's own side--and there are no actual winners whichever way it goes. I think it's important to remember that when we discuss the decisions made at the time.

[niyad]

10. where are you getting the figures for scenario a?

and your apparently casual dismissal of the japanese casualties (mostly civilian), is disturbing, to say the least.

[EX500rider]

19. Here:

Operation Downfall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall#Estimated_casualties

Casualty predictions varied widely, but were extremely high. Depending on the degree to which Japanese civilians would have resisted the invasion, estimates ran up into the millions for Allied casualties.

The Japanese had organized the Patriotic Citizens Fighting Corps, which included all healthy men aged 15 to 60 and women 17 to 40 for a total of 28 million people, for combat support and, later, combat jobs. Weapons, training and uniforms were generally lacking: some men were armed with nothing better than muzzle-loading muskets, longbows, or bamboo spears; nevertheless, they were expected to make do with what they had. One mobilized high school girl, Yukiko Kasai, found herself issued an awl and told, "Even killing one American soldier will do. ... You must aim for the abdomen."

By the time of surrender, the Japanese had 916,828 military personnel either in position or in various stages of deployment on Kyushu alone. The total strength of the Japanese military in the Home Islands amounted to 4,335,500, of whom 2,372,700 were in the Army and 1,962,800 in the Navy.

In April 1945, the Joint Chiefs of Staff formally adopted a planning paper giving a range of possible casualties based on experience in both Europe and the Pacific. Given a troop list of 766,700 men and a 90-day campaign, the US Sixth Army could be expected to suffer between 514,072 casualties (including 134,556 dead and missing) under the "Pacific Experience" (1.95 dead and missing and 7.45 total casualties/1,000 men/day) and 149,046 casualties (including 28,981 dead and missing) under the "European Experience" (0.42 dead and missing and 2.16 total casualties/1,000 men/day). This assessment included neither casualties suffered after the 90-day mark (US planners envisioned switching to the tactical defensive by D+120[80]), nor personnel losses at sea from Japanese air attacks. In order to sustain the campaign on Kyushu, planners estimated a replacement stream of 100,000 men per month would be necessary.

A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7–4 million American casualties, including 400,000–800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.

In evaluating these estimates, especially those based on projected Japanese troop strength (such as General MacArthur's), it is important to consider what was known about the state of Japanese defenses at the time, as well as the actual condition of those defenses (MacArthur's staff believed Japanese manpower on Kyushu to be roughly 300,000, more than 300 percent below the actual total)

Casual dismissal of the japanese casualties? No, I prefer in a choice of 150,000 dead to several MILLION the 1st figure.

[EX500rider]

45. Actually, no, not pure speculation...

.....but based on the casualties rates incurred in the Battle of Okinawa, then scaled up to match the forces deployed.

As I posted previously:
Battle of Okinawa:
250,000 US troops with 20,195 KIA, 55,162 WIA and 26,000 psychiatric cases, or 101,357 US casualties out of 250,000.

77,000 Japanese troops and 20,000 Okinawan conscripts with KIA est over 77,00 to 100,000, with civilian casualties KIA at 40,000 to 150,000 out of 300,000 civilians.

None of that boded well for the upcoming invasion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

On top of that:

Tekketsu Kinnotai
The Japanese Imperial Army mobilized 1,780 middle school boys aged 14–17 years into front-line-service. They were named "Tekketsu Kinnotai" (ja:鉄血勤皇隊, Iron and Blood Imperial Corps). This mobilization was conducted by the ordinance of the Ministry of Army, not by law. The ordinances mobilized the student for a volunteer soldier for form's sake. However, in reality, the military authorities ordered schools to force almost all students to "volunteer" for soldiers. Sometimes they counterfeited the necessary documents of students. And about half of "Tekketsu Kinnotai" were killed such as in suicide attacks against a tank with bombs and in guerrilla operations.
After losing in the Battle of Okinawa in June 1945, the Japanese government enacted new laws in preparation for the decisive battles in the main lands. They were the laws that made it possible boys aged 15 or older and girls aged 17 or older to be drafted into front-line-service.

[EX500rider]

53. "comparing trained and supplied troops to untrained, poorly armed civilians aged 14 to 100...".

That just means more Japanese civilian casualties...and more US troops with PTSD.

[XemaSab]

75. Any war where the line between civilians and combatants is blurred is going to be horrific

Look at Vietnam, or the current so-called Islamic terrorists.

"Is that a schoolgirl or an assassin?"

Fighting house-to-house across the entire archipelago like that would have been a disaster for both sides.

[REP]

9. 7 million civilians died in WWI, a war ginned up to try out new ways to kill people

Some of those ingenious new ways to kill people were so ghastly that they're not allowed to be used in war anymore, a concept I find blackly absurd: war is cool, but only if the mass killing is done in certain ways.

That war, which was unspeakably hideous, killed and maimed millions in horrible ways, devastated numerous countries and gave the world National Socialism, was just basically an excuse to conduct live fire demonstrations on living bodies and make a handful of people even richer. The justifications behind Hiroshima were actually better thought out.

[REP]

25. When I see posts made on Armistice Day decrying the civilian deaths of WWI

I will start to take posts such as these as other than mere "look how sensitive and correct I am" posturing.

[REP]

68. Holy shit. What a STUNNING display of ignorance about the civilian victims of WWI

I know the state of education has declined markedly since my time, but I had no idea that anyone thought that only "white Americans" were the 7 million civilian casualties of WWI, which was not fought on the American continent.

[sarisataka]

12. One can argue

forever about "what if"...

Would Japan have surrendered? Thay had requested an armistice but unconditional surrender was unlikely without an invasion.

If invaded would Japan simply have collapsed? Also unlikely. Japan was preparing for a major assault. US casualty estimates very from tens of thousands to millions. Noteworthy is that US planners underestimated Japanese forces which were 300% greater than thought. Japan's defensive plan expected an invasion force twice what was actually in the initial assault.

Maybe Operation Downfall would not have been the bloodiest campaign in history but maybe it would.

US preparations included making 500,000 Purple Hearts for expected casualties. We have not yet exhausted that supply even through Korea and Viet Nam. Those medals are being given to wounded troops today and there are still over 100,000 in stock.

[EX500rider]

21. "desperately searching for a way to surrender with honor'

And that was the sticking point, they had a choice of unconditional surrender or annihilation, they chose the latter.

[Major Nikon]

31. They had nothing to lose

They had already seen German officers and politicians put on trial for war crimes after their surrender, so as far as they knew the option of unconditional surrender meant they would be hanging from a rope in a few months.

[hack89]

40. Nuremberg trials started months after the Japanese surrendered. Nt

[Major Nikon]

67. The process started years before Germany surrendered

The Allies were already rounding up German war criminals not long after the Normandy invasion. The Japanese were well aware of what was in store for them.

[hack89]

73. So it was reasonable to assume they would not surrender

Because they committed atrocities that were worse than the atomic bombings by several orders of magnitude. We had to hold war crime trials.

[EX500rider]

48. Which some of them certainly had coming.

Alexandra Hospital massacre
Banka Island massacre
Changjiao massacre
Kalagong massacre
Laha massacre
Manila massacre
Nanking Massacre
Palawan Massacre
Pantingan River Massacre
Parit Sulong Massacre
Sook Ching massacre
Sulug Island massacre
Tol Plantation massacre
Wake Island massacre
Bataan Death March
Burma Railway
Chichijima incident
Comfort women
Hell ships
Panjiayu tragedy
Sandakan Death Marches
Three Alls Policy
War crimes in Manchukuo
Changteh chemical weapon attack
Kaimingye germ weapon attack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#List_of_major_crimes

[sarisataka]

24. And many of those same figure

Gave horrifying casualty estimates. Yes, Japan was defeated but still capable of fighting both at home and in China.

The main sticking point was the unconditional surrender; in particular concern for the Emperor. They feared he would be treated as a war criminal. Had we been clear that the Emperor would be unharmed peace would have been much easier to negotiate months earlier.

Second, 20/20 hindsight shows involving the Soviets was a mistake. It set up an artificial timetable to force Japan to surrender before the Soviets captured significant territory which could have created a North/South Japan mirroring the Korean peninsula.

[EX500rider]

50. So several million Japanese starving to death during a blockade is somehow better?

[malaise]

16. +1,000

Rec

[tritsofme]

22. Truman is a hero for dropping the bomb and ending that horrible war.

Untold numbers of American lives were saved, perhaps including my father.

I'm proud of Truman's decision, America has nothing to apologize for in it's efforts to defeat the Axis Powers.

[MohRokTah]

27. Truman was the GREATEST American HERO of the 20th Century because he used the bomb!!!

I proudly stand with you.

That decision likely saved the life of my grandfather on one side and two great uncles on the other, all three of which would have been part of the invasion of Japan.

[MohRokTah]

70. I ignore extremist propaganda. eom

[REP]

72. He won't see this

Started a new thread since he got locked out of this one.

[Ilsa]

29. Your reply speaks for many of us.

It literally could have been written by perhaps hundreds of us on this site. Thank you.

[tritsofme]

47. Your slurs are utterly irrelevant to me and the millions of Americans who admire such a great man.

And great Democratic president.

Truman made a courageous choice to end the war, and to him, I am eternally grateful.

[EX500rider]

55. He made a decision to not kill many more US & Japanese with a invasion..

.....or condemning millions to starve to death from a blockade.
He made a choice that saved millions.

[Dreamer Tatum]

23. Ah, it's one of the DU High Holy Days.

Time to pay tribute to the Street Cred Gods.

[Ilsa]

30. "DU High Holy Days"

I like that. May have to borrow it some day!

[Hekate]

65. Oh very well put

[roamer65]

84. Seems more subdued and late this year.

Usually it starts up a day or so before Aug 6th, with multiple threads.

Maybe people are getting tired of...

[MohRokTah]

26. OFFS!!!!

What complete twaddle!!!!!

[Hekate]

66. 200,000 "comfort women" are so easy to overlook

[MohRokTah]

71. "callous" - Adjective

"Preferring millions of dead by conventional means to 150,000 dead from nuclear weapons."

[actslikeacarrot]

32. Haha! Oh DU! Never change! N/T

[geek tragedy]

43. The military came very close to overthrowing Hirohito when he decided to surrender.

AFTER both bombs were dropped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyūjō_incident

[geek tragedy]

46. it rebuts the claim that Japan would have meekly surrendered absent

the show of destructive force

Potsdam was 10 days before the A-Bombs.

Japan did not surrender.

Time was running out before an invasion had to be launched.

[EX500rider]

59. "No, there was no ticking bomb."

Really?
How many Chinese were the Japanese invaders killing every month?
How many Japanese were going to starve to death from a extended blockade?

[XemaSab]

76. Cool new weapon?

How many of the people who worked on the bomb were Jews and German ex-pats who were desperate to keep Hitler from getting the bomb first?

Thank God we got it first, 'cause you know that Hitler and the Japanese would not have hesitated to use it on civilians.

For an example of Hitler's attitude towards cities full of civilians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_von_Choltitz

[Warren DeMontague]

54. You cannot examine something like Hiroshima isolated from the context of the years of war which

preceded it.

And certainly not from the argument- whether one accepts it fully, or not- that the alternative was a ground invasion of Honshu, a gargantuan effort which would have incurred a massive amount of allied casualties.

I don't envy Truman being faced with that decision; nevertheless, WWII was a collection of extremely horrible shit, and the bombings were more horrible shit which, nevertheless, happened to precipitate the end of the horrible shit.

[steve2470]

78. yep you nailed it nt

[tonyt53]

56. How many Japanese civilians do you think would have died during an Allied invasion?

The numbers have been estimated to be over 2 million - not troops, but civilians. Add to that at least 400,000 Japanese troops and at least 100,000 Allied troop lives. The Japanese would have not surrendered for at least another year after an Allied invasion.

The people of those cities were warned. Leaflets were dropped telling them that there would be great devastation. But most stayed put. They were told, but still would not heed the warning. Not a chance in hell that they would have surrendered to an Allied invasion. My dad was in three US Marine landings in the Pacific, with the first being the initial US landing on Guadalcanal, where his actions resulted in his receiving the Navy Star. He realized then and there that there was no way the Japanese would surrender. His last landing was at Iwo Jima. His wounds while clearing hidden Japanese on Suribachi ended his war effort and he was sent to Australia to recover and didn't get to come home until six months after the war had ended. That was two months after his own father had passed away.

No, no US politicians or scientists or anybody else was tried for war crimes over those bombs, because they weren't war crimes.

Then you have the audacity to mention a day that should live in infamy. Either you are ignorant or foolish. I think maybe a lot of both.

[Hekate]

60. The Rape of Nanking (sic) and the Bataan Death March were also war crimes.

As a kid growing up in Hawai'i I met a woman who had survived a Japanese-run POW camp in the Phillippines. PTSD was her middle name. My late mother in law survived a German concentration camp, mostly by being on the last train iirc. My late father in law's entire first family was swept up early and never came back from Auschwitz.

The horrors of the atomic bombings in Japan were not a "secret" when I was growing up, as some fool claimed at DU this time last year. There were plenty of photos and books that served to remind everyone with a brain that these were not weapons that should ever be used again. The events spawned an entire subgenre of science fiction, as well.

Likewise, the horrors committed by members of the Axis on all of humanity were well known to any sentient being. Many survivors who bore witness were eventually sprinkled about the US and its territories, and US military personnel who liberated the camps were shocked to the core by what they saw.

This OP and the resultant thread are but the annual DU exercises in guilt, self-flagellation, and self-righteousness. As the last of my parents' generation dies away, so does direct knowledge of the events of WW II. As the last of their children die away, another thread will be snapped. Given the American propensity for giving short shrift to History in school, eventually the revisionists will have the last word.

[Duckhunter935]

61. Unfortunately the Japanese brought that on themselves

Those same civilians were not objecting to the invasions of many nations and brutal treatment of their enimies. The invasion of Japan would have been just if not more deadly by looking at how the other battles went.

[Motley13]

62. This will be unpopular

I am way older than most of you & although very young, I remember it. We were so happy the war was over! As much as I hate the horror of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, I do believe that it has stopped civilized nations from committing the same atrocity. I guess you could say the ends justify the means.

They, meaning us, supposedly dropped leaflets to the people to get out & I know, where do you go & how far & how many were able to do it?

I do not know WHY the maggot has not viewed tapes of nuclear war, the weapons today are much, much more powerful.

It is Japans responsibility to the world to remind everyone the horror of nuclear war, THEY EXPERIENCED IT.

I am eternally sorry.

[Dr. Strange]

63. We should have surrendered to the Axis powers.

That was the only truly moral choice.

[Hekate]

64. 200,000 "comfort women" are so easy to forget

[whatthehey]

74. Ah the annual poutrage Paralympics

Where DUers compete in the high horse vault to desperately seek the holier than thou Pacifist Purity award.

[VMA131Marine]

77. Conventional bombing was killing at least as many people if not more

One raid on Tokyo alone likely killed 97,000:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo

There's also an argument to be made that the use of the A-bombs in 1945 prevented their use later on when they had become far more destructive.

[steve2470]

79. you need to read what the Emperor of Japan had to say....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewel_Voice_Broadcast

TO OUR GOOD AND LOYAL SUBJECTS:

After pondering deeply the general trends of the world and the actual conditions obtaining in Our Empire today, We have decided to effect a settlement of the present situation by resorting to an extraordinary measure.

We have ordered Our Government to communicate to the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union that Our Empire accepts the provisions of their Joint Declaration.[6]

To strive for the common prosperity and happiness of all nations as well as the security and well-being of Our subjects is the solemn obligation which has been handed down by Our Imperial Ancestors and which lies close to Our heart.

Indeed, We declared war on America and Britain out of Our sincere desire to ensure Japan's self-preservation and the stabilization of East Asia, it being far from Our thought either to infringe upon the sovereignty of other nations or to embark upon territorial aggrandizement.

But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone – the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State, and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people – the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.

Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should We continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization. (italics, bolding and underlining added)

Such being the case, how are We to save the millions of Our subjects, or to atone Ourselves before the hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors? This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Powers.

We cannot but express the deepest sense of regret to Our Allied nations of East Asia, who have consistently cooperated with the Empire towards the emancipation of East Asia.

The thought of those officers and men as well as others who have fallen in the fields of battle, those who died at their posts of duty, or those who met with untimely death and all their bereaved families, pains Our heart night and day.

The welfare of the wounded and the war-sufferers, and of those who have lost their homes and livelihood, are the objects of Our profound solicitude.

The hardships and sufferings to which Our nation is to be subjected hereafter will be certainly great. We are keenly aware of the inmost feelings of all of you, Our subjects. However, it is according to the dictates of time and fate that We have resolved to pave the way for a grand peace for all the generations to come by enduring the unendurable and suffering what is unsufferable.

Having been able to safeguard and maintain the Kokutai, We are always with you, Our good and loyal subjects, relying upon your sincerity and integrity.

Beware most strictly of any outbursts of emotion which may engender needless complications, or any fraternal contention and strife which may create confusion, lead you astray and cause you to lose the confidence of the world.

Let the entire nation continue as one family from generation to generation, ever firm in its faith in the imperishability of its sacred land, and mindful of its heavy burden of responsibility, and of the long road before it.

Unite your total strength, to be devoted to construction for the future. Cultivate the ways of rectitude, foster nobility of spirit, and work with resolution – so that you may enhance the innate glory of the Imperial State and keep pace with the progress of the world.


August 14, 1945

[Captain Stern]

81. This again? I guess it's that time of year.

I've always found the arguments about whether or not the A-bombs should have been dropped sort of pointless.

The real atrocity is that, even now, groups of people that have far more in common with each other than they have differences, still manage to find reasons to go to war and kill each other.

War, where we as groups decide that the best course of action is to kill each other, is the atrocity.

I think that once we've decided to go to war, it's silly to debate about the rules we use when we kill each other.

[CaptainTruth]

82. I understand your point. I've been to Japan 15 times, & visited peace park several times.

The one thing I always ask myself is, why did we have to bomb civilians? Trump says we should kill terrorists' families & we say that's awful, but that's exactly what we did, we killed families. Not soldiers, families. Civilians. Women & children. By the thousands.

Japan had military-occupied territories (like islands) we could have bombed, as a warning. We could have shown them what we could do & given them an ultimatum, surrender in 48 hours or we bomb cities, but we didn't.