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[Are_grits_groceries]

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[msongs]

1. brazil will gladly forgive any and all alleged issues for a nice cash donation nt

[OBenario]

94. Sure, because White Americans and Europeans are the only one who have decency

Screw you.

[TheBlackAdder]

99. Most US & EU Central & South American trade agreements force those countries into abject poverty.

.


US and EU companies offer hybrid seeds for free for a year or two to poor farmers, who later find out that you cannot replant 10% of your crop for the next harvest--forcing them to buy seeds. These are farmers who make $1-2 a day. Then, the US and EU purposely pumps their subsidized crops to Central and South America and Africa, where it sells for 1/4th the cost to locally crow, forcing those farmers out of business and BigAg comes in and buys their family farms.

But White Americans and the EU are the only ones who have decency.


.

[jberryhill]

2. No, a judge did

What do you mean by "Brazil"?

Are you saying that this judge was acting on behalf of the country in general?

Who do you believe instructed or coerced this one judge into issuing the order which she did?

This will get sorted out, but the suggestion that this judge was acting on behalf of some national agenda is not something which is supported by any facts, and is simply something you made up.

[Are_grits_groceries]

3. Oh FFS!

Then a Brazilian judge did. I wasn't suggesting any sort of country-wide conspiracy. Who knows who was involved in the decision? She could have acted on her own.

I'll amend my post title. Nothing like making another mountain.

[jberryhill]

5. Would you like someone blaming the US for some shit from Judge Roy Moore?

The subtext of this story that no one is picking up on is that the muggers were "dressed like police".

I have a feeling it goes beyond the clothing.

"Who knows who was involved in the decision?"

Yeah, you never know with those women judges, who probably need someone telling them what to do.

[Are_grits_groceries]

7. Oh FFS! I NEVER mentioned the judge's gender.

You are pulling crap out of everything I post.

[jberryhill]

18. "Who knows who was involved in the decision?"

That's a Trumpian question.

A routine legal procedure in Brazil is being followed, and it is one used in the US to detain material witnesses, but because of the persons involved, there has to be some aroma of a corrupt judge who, for inscrutable reasons, has taken a course calculated to piss off millions of Americans.

I think if everyone takes a deep breath, and the swimmers appear and answer some questions, then this will get sorted in short order without all the drama and horror over this gross violation of privilege.

[Adrahil]

6. Well, the judge IS a government official.

He wields governmental authority. By definition, he is acting on behalf of the government. I'm not suggesting that there is some kind of national policy at work here, but if governmentnhigher ups don't want this, they haven't particularly done anything to stop it.

[jberryhill]

8. First, it's "she"

Second, judges rule against governments all of the time.

Third, just what is it that "higher ups" can do about a court ruling they don't like? Explain to me how that works in any society with basic legal norms.

[Adrahil]

9. Thanks. She.

Pretty much every country has some means to deal with stuff like this. Grant them immunity, clemency, whatever, for whatever horrible crime they are are supposed top have committed.

This is pretty ridiculous.

[jberryhill]

10. They aren't charged with anything

Pro-tip - if you are a material witness to a crime under investigation, you aren't subject to immunity, clemency, whatever, but you can be kept from leaving.

That happens in the US and no one complains about it. Why is it unusual when Brazil does it?

[Adrahil]

11. Ordering passports seized?

That's a bit extreme. It's not like thew police are building a case against the perpetrators.

I'll tell you this, Brazil has sealed this Olympics as a real shit show with this kind of behavior.

[jberryhill]

12. Can you provide a link to the thread where you are outraged about this:

http://kneb.com/regional-news/judge-deliberating-on-detainment-of-material-witness-in-bridgeport-murder-case/

A Greeley, Colorado woman has been determined to be a material witness in the “body in a barrel” murder near Bayard late last year.

But District Judge Leo Dobrovolny Wednesday delayed a decision on whether 25 year old Felicia Talley needs to be permanently detained to ensure her appearance at the November trial of first degree murder suspect Zachary Mueller of Bridgeport.

During a hearing in Bridgeport Wednesday Dobrovolny admitted he “didn’t have a lot of alternatives” regarding the release of Talley.

Assistant Attorney General Doug Warner told the court Talley was “a risk” to appear for trial and exhibited behavior of “flight and avoidance” as authorities tried to find and interview her regarding the death of 33 year old Pedro Dominguez of Greeley. His body was found in a barrel near Bayard December 4th and Talley’s 24 year old boyfriend Zachary Mueller of Bridgeport has been charged with first degree murder in the case.

[B2G]

14. A murder vs a potential robbery?

Really?

[jberryhill]

15. A potential robbery in which the perps were said to be "dressed as police"

Under a lot of latin-derived legal systems, judges are also in charge of investigations.

The judge wants to ask them some questions about a crime alleged to have been committed within that judge's jurisdiction. When investigators went to the Olympic Village, the witnesses couldn't be found. Nobody is being locked up, but they are subject to the law of the country they are in, and there is a judge properly within her lawful authority to secure their appearance to answer questions.

You know what you do? You show up and you answer the questions.

I've been to Brazil, and to a lot of other countries, and it is surprising how many Americans think they are somehow not subject to the laws of the country they are visiting for reasons like, well, gee, we're Americans.

Just who the hell does this woman think she is, following procedure and all that stuff. There's no special rule for people from the US. There's no special rule for Olympic athletes, even white ones!

[LisaL]

17. So if you report a crime in Brazil, you can end up being stuck there for who knows how long?

How much is that going to cost you? Plane tickets, hotels, etc?

[jberryhill]

19. You can get hung up in any country's legal system

If you report a crime in the US, there's a fair chance the police will come out and shoot you. Every system has its quirks.

If you are a witness to a crime in the US, you can be held within the jurisdiction and not permitted to leave. It's not like that doesn't happen here.

[jberryhill]

20. How about if you vandalize a gas station and fight with a security guard?

UPDATE 10:58 a.m. — ABC is reporting that a Brazilian police source claims: “one of the swimmers was seen on CCTV footage breaking down the door to the bathroom at the gas station and fighting with a security guard.”

[Person 2713]

103. Just getting home and reading this info from you now so thanks for posting earlier

[OBenario]

95. If you report a false crime, yes. Making up claims of crime is a crime in Brazil n/t

[SunSeeker]

4. That judge is an embarrassment for judges everywhere.

But not as much of an embarrassment as the Rio Olympics have been to Brazil.

[cwydro]

13. The Olympics have been a success.

Not sure why you're calling them an embarrassment.

Brazil put on a stellar show despite the paucity of funds for such.

Maybe they don't measure up to your ideas or perhaps you're comparing them to countries with a lot more money, but they have not been an "embarrassment."

[jberryhill]

16. By the measure of the anticipated clusterfuck, yeah

First off, it is a shame that the Olympics are conducted by a thoroughly corrupt, money grubbing fascist organization, since the athletes are, by and large, sincere, dedicated and extremely talented.

It is also true that the Olympics is largely a scam perpetrated by well-connected elites against the inhabitants of wherever they are held. Lots of money changes hands, but only the correctly connected hands.

By any measure, it is a vastly disproportionate diversion of resources from other uses that would more directly benefit the citizenry on which they are inflicted.

But, yes, you are correct that thus far it has not been blown up by terrorists, nobody has contracted flesh-eating bacteria from the water, the competitions are being conducted in an orderly manner, and there have been spectacular performances by the athletes.

However, the general word "success" is probably too vaguely defined to be accurately used.

[SunSeeker]

23. I don't judge Olympics by the opening show, but by how the games were run.

These Olympic games were not run well. Green diving and synchronized swimming pools. Uninhabitable Olympic Village athlete's rooms. Long lines for everything, even a 30-minute wait for a bottle of water in ridiculously hot stadiums. Empty seats at events, with fans unable to get in due to inadequate security causing hours-long lines to get in and missing events altogether. Dangerous courses, resulting in horrific cyclist crashes. The list goes on and on. And now this.

Do you think it is fine that these swimmers were pulled off their plane and are being detained in Brazil for no reason other that a fellow teammate had the nerve to report a crime? Not only does this chill the reporting of crime by athletes in Brazil, but it is an impetuous abuse of power by this judge -- aided and abetted by Brazil security forces.

No one forced Brazil to host these games. If they did not have the wherewithal to do it, they should not have bid for the games. They sure as hell shouldn't be taking out their frustrations on the athletes.

[roamer65]

65. Damn straight.

Tokyo should have had these games, instead of Rio.

[FSogol]

32. Agreed. Brazil has put on a great Olympics. The Opening ceremony was just as entertaining

at London and Beijing at a fraction of the cost.

[onenote]

31. Are you so certain about that now?

It's looking like you may the one who should be embarrassed.

[SunSeeker]

34. Even if Lochte made it up, it is an abuse of power to arrest someone for embarrasing your country.

The two men pulled off the plane were not charged with any crime.

[onenote]

51. Material witnesses.

[SunSeeker]

110. There are no grounds to arrest "material witnesses," especially for a petty misdemeanor.

The police admitted today that the alleged "crime" these two were "material witnesses" of does not even carry jail time. Yet these "material witnesses" have been held with their passports confiscated.

This was all about avenging Brazil's honor. It was a total abuse of the police power.

[malaise]

107. And these louts are the definition of the Ugly Americans

disgusting frat boys with no respect for anyone or anything -even overseas.

[SunSeeker]

108. Neither side looks good here. nt

[jcgoldie]

21. I don't know why they did it

But I think Lochte and the other guy fabricated this story. He told it to his mom and then she told it to a reporter. Instead of coming clean at that point and calling it a misunderstanding, Lochte doubled down making a mess of this.

[SunSeeker]

24. Even if Lochte made it up, why arrest these two guys?

Why make an international incident out of this? Why chill future crime reporting? Why not just issue a press release saying they think Lochte is lying?

[jcgoldie]

30. Obviously Brazil is trying to clear its reputation

A statement saying they "think Lochte is lying" is he said she said. Holding these guys for questioning and arriving at the truth settles the issue. It became an international issue when Lochte's mom went to the press with it, the time to let it fizzle on its own harmlessly has long past.

[SunSeeker]

36. It is an abuse of power to arrest somone just to clear up a press story.

These two swimmers should not have been pulled off a plane and detained.

[DrDan]

37. they potentially broke the law - pulling them off the plane is perfectly appropriate

[SunSeeker]

38. Potentially? They were not charged with a crime.

That is some crazy overreaction to embarrassing press.

[DrDan]

40. vandalized a gas station - paid off the owner - then filed a false report

charges are coming

[SunSeeker]

42. No charges yet. So no grounds to arrest and detain these two.

Wow, the sudden police state love on DU is scary.

[DrDan]

44. sorry you don't like it - but you can be held while charges are being sorted out

[SunSeeker]

45. It is a violation of human rights. nt

[DrDan]

48. good try - but no it is not

[opiate69]

50. You couldn't possibly be more wrong.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2012/07/how-long-can-you-be-held-without-charges.html

[SunSeeker]

111. You couldn't possibly be more wrong.

First, you are citing US law. They are in Brazil. But let's pretend they are under US law, if you wish. Even then, there must be probable cause to arrest them, as your link notes. There is absolutely no evidence these two committed any crime, nor is it alleged these two lied to the police--or even that they talked to the police. And today the police admitted the "crime" we are talking about here with regard to the other two swimmers (Lochte and Feigen) do not even carry jail time. They arrested witnesses to a petty misdemeanor.

[mythology]

53. No it isn't

This is standard procedure. If they did make it up to cover for vandalism, the entitled little shit deserve to spend some time behind bars for that and filing a false police report.

[oberliner]

70. But these two didn't file a police report or vandalize anything

They were just with the other two guys who did.

[SunSeeker]

41. No, you don't arrest someone without charges.

Not appropriate at all.

[DrDan]

43. they could be placed in custody here - typically up to 72 hours - while the

prosecutor decides what charges are to be filed - if any

[SunSeeker]

46. Cite the statute please.

Last I checked, arresting without charges is a violation of human rights.

[DrDan]

47. depends on the state - but . . .

"As a general rule, however, if you are placed in custody, your "speedy trial" rights typically require the prosecutor to decide within 72 hours which charges, if any, will be filed. Many states adhere to this 72-hour limit."

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-rights/how-long-may-police-hold-suspects-before-charges-must-be-filed.html

[DrDan]

49. and here

Police can’t bring charges against a suspect. Only a prosecutor has the ability to charge a person with a crime. It may take some time after an arrest before charges are made.

But how long can they hold you before there is a violation of your rights? In most states, prosecutors have up to 72 hours to bring charges. But certain states, including California, give prosecutors only 48 hours before they must file charges or release the suspect.

That time limit applies to how long you can be held without charge, but it doesn’t necessarily affect the prosecutor’s ability to bring charges later on. The prosecutor must file charges within the specified time but those charges are not written in stone. The law only requires that a suspect cannot be held without charge for more than 48 or 72 hours depending on the state. -

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2012/07/how-long-can-you-be-held-without-charges.html

[SunSeeker]

54. You still must have grounds. Otherwise, it is false arrest.nt

[opiate69]

55. And the police had the surveillance video from the store

Which contradicted the liars' little fairy tale (constituting probable cause ). Jesus, it's not really that difficult.

[SunSeeker]

112. Neither of the two arrested on the plane offered a "fairy tale" to anyone.

Jesus, it's not that difficult.

[DrDan]

56. that is what the time period is for - to determine which charges will be brought

[DrDan]

59. you have to have "probable cause" - which they have

conflicting statements
a video
service station owner statement

Not a false arrest.

[SunSeeker]

80. What crime by these two does this evidence show?

How is any of that evidence against these two?

It appears just one person damaged the bathroom door--and paid for it in cash, namely Lochte.

Is petty vandalism by another, paid for on the spot, worth arresting and indefinitely detaining these two?

Oh, by the way, it appears a British athlete had the nerve to report a robbery on the way back to their lodgings.
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/british-olympian-robbed-rio-uk-olympic-association/story?id=41479327&cid=clicksource_4380645_1_hero_headlines_bsq_related

 I wonder why the UK won't provide more details?

Detain the UK team! Confiscate their passports!

[DrDan]

81. they lied to the police

[SunSeeker]

83. They are not charged with that. nt

[DrDan]

84. they are still deciding the charges - hence kept in Brazil

could be obstruction of justice
could be a misdemeanor - up to a year
could be a felony - up to 3 years

[SunSeeker]

87. No one is even claiming or suggesting charges will be brought against these two.

The reports are they must stay "until they testify" -- presumably to clear Brazil's reputation.

That is an abuse of police power.

[DrDan]

88. you should be listening to the press conferrence - the Police Chief just said

charges are possible for all 4 - giving false testimony and vandalism

[SunSeeker]

89. Police Chiefs are always right.

[DrDan]

91. that ranks right there with Lochte's latest statement - the video provided to police

was edited cutting out the robbery

lolololololol - where is Rose Mary Woods these days . . . .

[SunSeeker]

106. The initial clip shown was edited, without the part where the swimmers were hit up for money.

Last edited Thu Aug 18, 2016, 10:19 PM - Edit history (1)

The video does not show them causing any breakage, but only being hustled out of the bathroom by uniformed employees. Security guards then prevented the swimmers from leaving in a taxi and the Americans appear to offer them money from their wallets.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_57b6284ae4b0b51733a2638b

And now the Brazilians admit these so-called security guards pointed their guns at them, after initially claiming no guns were pulled on the swimmers:

While some details in the official account of the story changed on Thursday - police first said no guns were involved, then backtracked and said two guards pointed weapons in their direction - security video confirmed that the athletes vandalized parts of the gas station, leading to an encounter with station employees.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ryan-lochte-olympics-us-swimmers-gun-rio-de-janeiro-police/

[DrDan]

90. "one US Swimmer admitted others lied about robbery"

[SunSeeker]

92. There are no charges the two pulled off the plane lied to police. nt.

[DrDan]

93. there are no charges of anything yet - those are potentially coming

[SunSeeker]

97. There is no evidence Conger and Bentz lied to police, DrDan.

ABC News Chief Legal Analyst Dan Abramson was just on ABC saying "let's be clear, this is a political investigation." He said in the US, a potential witness would never be yanked off a plane, passports confiscated and detained to force their testimony against another over a potential crime "if the crime you are talking about is filing a false police report." As Abramson noted, it appears only Lochte and Feigen had made the allegedly false statements to police, but the other two they just want as potential witnesses.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/us-swimmers-detained-brazil/story?id=41482439

 

[Ace Rothstein]

77. You have a Brazilian law degree?

[SunSeeker]

78. Do you?

[Ace Rothstein]

79. No, but I'm not the one making definitive statements about what is allowed/not allowed.

[SunSeeker]

82. Do you disagree that arrest without charges is a violation of human rights? nt

[DrDan]

85. that is just plain silly

[Ace Rothstein]

86. It depends on the potential charges.

And there should definitely be some time for prosecutors to get their ducks in order. I still don't believe any of these guys have been arrested though.

[Nye Bevan]

22. Sounds like the swimmers lied and the Brazilians acted entirely appropriately.

A few DUers will be a little embarrassed today about jumping to conclusions.

[SunSeeker]

25. How is yanking these two swimmers off a plane "acting appropriately"?

What did these two guys do that was a crime?

[Nye Bevan]

26. Even in the US, material witnesses to a crime can be and are detained.

When there are allegations of crooked cops robbing people it is important to get to the bottom of the story.

[stopbush]

27. They're in Brazil. They're subject to Brazilian law.

Falsifying information recorded in a police report probably carries some penalty. Could be a misdemeanor.

The real black eye here is that a group of privileged young men screwed up with their behavior, and rather than own up to their actions, they concoct a story that defames their host nation, playing on peoples' prejudices against Hispanic/Latino people in general - and those in Rio in specific - in hopes that their story will stick.

[Nye Bevan]

33. More than a whiff of "affluenza" in this case.

I hate that privileged attitude of "this place is a lawless shithole so everyone will believe our bullshit story of a robbery".

[stopbush]

35. Yep. Not to mention that the worst tme to concoct such a lie

is when you're drunk.

[suffragette]

66. Exactly. It's Bullingdon club behavior and vile.

And there were more than a few people and news agencies that pointed to this incident as confirmation of their biases.

Disgusting all the way around.

[DrDan]

28. lied to police? filed a false report?

a crime both here and there, I believe

[SunSeeker]

113. No one filed a police report. The "crime" Lochte and Feigen are accused of carries no jail time.

The Brazilian authorities stopped an international flight on the tarmac, yanked two "potential witnesses" off the plane, confiscated their passports and held them in Brazil against their will, all to force them to provide testimony against Lochte and Feigen--regarding a "crime" that carries no jail time!

This is all about avenging Brazil's honor. That is not what police and courts are supposed to be for. This is a abuse of police power - -even if you don't like the victims of the abuse.

[piechartking]

29. Reports are they have the swimmers on security camera

Kicking down a door and getting into a physical altercation with a security guard. So yeah, I think of that's alleged and there's evidence to support it, you keep them in country until they figure out what happened.

Imagine three Brazilian guys came to the US and did the same thing. Would we let them leave until we figured out what was going on.

[Tempest]

39. They also have video from the Olympic village of the wallet they said was stolen n/t

[uponit7771]

58. How is that they lied about being robbed!?!?!

[DrDan]

64. they made it up . . . and filed a false report

[SunSeeker]

115. The reports are wrong. There is no video of them "kicking down a door."

And no, we don't arrest and detain people for petty misdemeanors.

The police admitted today the "crimes" Lochte and Feigen are accused of do not even carry jail time.

Funny how the security guards did not report the altercation...until Brazilian authorities tracked them down. Then they released an edited video which did not show the part where the security guards, pointing guns at the swimmers, hit the swimmers up for money before letting them leave.

This was all about Brazil throwing a hissy fit because a famous athlete blabbed to the media that he was robbed and they felt their honor was insulted by a privileged ugly American.

If some Brazilians in the US claimed in the media they had been robbed, we would suggest they file a police report. And if they didn't we would leave it alone. These four never filed police reports. Instead, the police started an investigation of the four, infuriated by the bad press. The police dug up dirt on them, interviewed Lochte and Feigen (where the alleged "false statements" were made), then got a judge to issue an order confiscating the four's passports, stopping an international flight on the tarmac, and then arrested the other two who were on that plane because they wanted to force them to testify against Lochte and Feigen. It was a horrible abuse of police power.

A much better use of their resources would be investigating why their pools turned green--or maybe, I don't know, going after murderers and rapists.

[CBGLuthier]

62. Filed false police reports. That's a crime.

[SunSeeker]

114. No one "filed false police reports."

The two yanked off the plane did not even talk to the police. And as to the other two, Lochte and Feigen, the police admitted today that the "crime" they are accused of carries no jail time.

[relayerbob]

52. 100% agreed

[uponit7771]

57. So wait, they weren't robbed at all?! thx in advance

[jcgoldie]

60. It would appear not (nt)

[cwydro]

67. I never believed his story.

Utter bs.

[Skittles]

109. Lochte told him mommy he was robbed

because at 32 he was skeered she'd know he was out all night drinking......she mentioned the "robbery" to the media and, well, that's all that was needed

[liberal N proud]

61. The thing about justice in other countries is that they don't play by our rules

And can be quite harsh.

[DrDan]

63. filing a false police report is a crime both here and in Brazil

[oberliner]

71. But these two didn't do that

They were just with the guys who did.

[DrDan]

72. apparently they made statements to the police substantiating the robbery

[oberliner]

73. Do you have a link to that?

I had not read that they had given such statements. Just that Lochte and Feigen had.

[DrDan]

74. .

Brazilian authorities continued pressing the American swimmers over the ever-changing account of the robbery. Police said the swimmers were unable to provide key details in early interviews and they found little evidence to support the robbery claim. The swimmers said they had been intoxicated and could not remember what type and color of taxi they rode, where the incident happened or what time the events occurred, police said. The police official said officers grew suspicious when they reviewed security video of the swimmers returning to the athletes village and saw them wearing watches.

http://summergames.ap.org/article/2-lochte-teammates-robbery-probe-pulled-plane

[DrDan]

75. also the paragraph following the one I provided

The office of Judge Keyla Blanc, who ordered the passports seized, said there were discrepancies in the statements by the swimmers.

(same link)

[Enrique]

98. is the death penalty harsh?

we have it and they don't. Not only do we have it, we use it a LOT.

Aside from the death penalty, what about incarceration rates? Our rate is more than twice theirs. Is that a good measure of the harshness of a country's justice?

[suffragette]

68. Grits, I appreciate that your post is a fair one, with good questions rather

Than the leap to excoriate Rio and Brazilians as others have done.

Maybe give some thought to including an update in the OP now that more info has come out?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37115680

On Thursday, police sources in Rio tell the BBC that the swimmers invented the story about the robbery. They say that the four athletes arrived by taxi at a petrol station in Barra da Tijuca, 16km from the Olympic Park, where one of the athletes broke down a toilet door.
The gas station attendants asked the Americans to pay for the damage, according to the police, and a verbal dispute ensued.
The athletes then reportedly paid the staff and left before police arrived. Police say they have identified the recording of the phone call from the gas station and the security guard at the station has given a statement to police.

[Warpy]

69. Looks like the judge smelled something funny in their story

Looks like the judge was right.

4 drunks get into a dustup, blame some anonymous "other" for robbing them. Sadly, it happens in the US every day.

Brazil is just taking it a little more seriously since their national reputation is on the line.

[NaturalHigh]

76. Well this whole thing has turned into a clusterfuck.

[HerrKarlMarx]

96. The US swimmers turned this into an international incident

They had the opportunity to tell the truth and take responsibility for their destructive actions.

Instead, they tried to take advantage of of Brazilian stereotypes - widespread crime and corrupt police - to escape their actions.

[lostnfound]

100. I agree, and wouldn't any normal person want to be on best behavior..

repesenting their country in a foreign place? Hello, I even feel I have that obligation just as a person on vacation in a foreign country. To represent the United States as an Olympian is an incredible honor, and I don't blame them for celebrating too much and getting out of hand, but making up lies that unfairly made Brazil look bad was just totally wrong!

[truebluegreen]

101. Got it in one.

Welcome to DU.

[Person 2713]

105. They all owe an apology to the people of Rio. And after that , to other US Olympic participants IMO

[madinmaryland]

102. How many judges is that?

[Bucky]

104. Thank God this didn't happen on Cheney's watch

If it'd been the 2008 Olympics, we'd be spooling up Operação Choque e Temor by now.